Staff caught stealing, what is the law regarding the wages? Also law about unpaid trial

[HerbalEd]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

And what makes you think Thai lawyers know this? and/ or i have not asked already?

According to company lawyer, without any reference if caught stealing do not pay anything at all, but again for the 3rd time, i am wanting to know the actual law NOT what you think or guess and NOT what Thai lawyer thinks

So you don't trust what your own Thai lawyer advises you about Thai law, and instead want the advice of total strangers??

That is correct i do not trust my own Thai Lawyer and want to hear from people with experience, which i clearly stated in the first post, sadly though missed by too many

You don't trust him because he does not give you the answer you want. And you get frustrated here because most posters are not giving it to you either. Well, just keep asking ... eventually someone will tell you what you want to hear ... and, you will finally have your answer.

[lemoncake]

I think you should accept that some people will be more helpful than others and just except that, as with most forums.

Overall you have had your question answered.

, yep, as sad as it sounds, you are correct

[darrendsd]

I think you should accept that some people will be more helpful than others and just except that, as with most forums.

Overall you have had your question answered.

Answered numerous times and some posters have given him links to what he needs but he doesn't want to listen

I;m sure there used to be a Clown smiley on these boards, where is it when you need it?

[lemoncake]

You don't trust him because he does not give you the answer you want. And you get frustrated here because most posters are not giving it to you either. Well, just keep asking ... eventually someone will tell you what you want to hear ... and, you will finally have your answer.

STOP your trolling and find another place to waste your time.

Only a complete idiot would post something like this, after i posted already lawyer said NOT to pay

[HerbalEd]

Wow. You really come off as rude and arrogant. And it's not YOUR threat. You're just the OP.

Yes i am just the OP and what does that have to do with OP?

Very sorry for NOT wanting to sort through rubbish and was hoping to avoid it, but clearly on Thai Visa it is simply not possible

You know ... when so many people around you are telling you that you are wrong ... guess what, you are wrong. I'm guessing you get this kind of reaction from people a lot ... probably most of your life. Sooo ... maybe it's you and not others that is the problem.

[HerbalEd]

You don't trust him because he does not give you the answer you want. And you get frustrated here because most posters are not giving it to you either. Well, just keep asking ... eventually someone will tell you what you want to hear ... and, you will finally have your answer.

STOP your trolling and find another place to waste your time.

Only a complete idiot would post something like this, after i posted already lawyer said NOT to pay

You are a trolls wet dream.

Edited August 6, 2013 by HerbalEd

[Andre0720]

My post number 47 certainly qualifies as an experience with dealing with the labor department. They do respond to enquiries, and offer professional advice when specifics are submitted.

And as a bonus, it provides a number for a "where I you should ask".

Thank you, as i have already said i believe 3-5 times, labor department gives a different answer.

There is a law in regards to perm employees, however they unsure what the actual law is in regards to people with 4 days of employment

The labor department would be the 'Office or prime interest', the ultimate authority. And you do not like the answers that they provide.

So what would it be that you are looking for here...

Some meta experience that would overshadow the labor department???

[Naroge]

I have nothing to add but just want to annoy the OP. I would love this thread to get over 100 pages long just to annoy him.

First of all you have had at least 10 people respond and give you a very clear answer.

I have been an employee here and if they really want to get their money wages from you they can.

If you have a legal contract written in Thai that states a procedure for early dismissal or quitting, then you wouldn't have to pay.

There are ways to protect yourself as others have suggested. There are legal procedures that you must follow, but since you just don't care to listen to what others have said, put your head in the sand and deal with the ramifications of your choices.

Fact. if you catch someone stealing, give them the choice of calling the police or leaving. They will most likely not ask for salary but if they demand their severance you do legally need to pay them.

As others have stated the Labor board is very clear on this. These are 2 separate issues, criminal and labor.

I really do not understand if you just do not read or can not understand what is written

Staff was only employed for 4 days

There is a contract in Thai, with clear clause stating if caught stealing, will not be paid for the month

Being within the probation period, there is no procedure and there are no legal actions for dismissing them. There is no need to even give the reason.

I think you will find that under the labour laws you are required to give an employee notice or pay in lieu equivalent to their pay period, even during the probation period i.e. if they are paid daily, one day. If paid monthly then one month.

Sent from my GT-P5100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Under Thai labour law you don't have to pay severance pay during probation period. I don't remember seeing any specific clause that you have to pay salary up to the day of dismissal (during probation period), but to me it is just common sense to do it as you otherwise would have had them working for free, maybe up to 29 days in the extreme case (assuming you pay monthly).

When I have had to dismiss people, I made sure I paid them "well". Having a disgruntled ex employee chasing you could cost you much more.

[lemoncake]

My post number 47 certainly qualifies as an experience with dealing with the labor department. They do respond to enquiries, and offer professional advice when specifics are submitted.

And as a bonus, it provides a number for a "where I you should ask".

Thank you, as i have already said i believe 3-5 times, labor department gives a different answer.

There is a law in regards to perm employees, however they unsure what the actual law is in regards to people with 4 days of employment

The labor department would be the 'Office or prime interest', the ultimate authority. And you do not like the answers that they provide.

So what would it be that you are looking for here...

Some meta experience that would overshadow the labor department???

Its not that i do not like the answers they provide its the fact that they provide inconclusive answers, ie yes must pay and no, do not have to pay or unsure

[darrendsd]

My post number 47 certainly qualifies as an experience with dealing with the labor department. They do respond to enquiries, and offer professional advice when specifics are submitted.

And as a bonus, it provides a number for a "where I you should ask".

Thank you, as i have already said i believe 3-5 times, labor department gives a different answer.

There is a law in regards to perm employees, however they unsure what the actual law is in regards to people with 4 days of employment

The labor department would be the 'Office or prime interest', the ultimate authority. And you do not like the answers that they provide.

So what would it be that you are looking for here...

Some meta experience that would overshadow the labor department???

Its not that i do not like the answers they provide its the fact that they provide inconclusive answers, ie yes must pay and no, do not have to pay or unsure

So they must be Trolls as well then as like everyone else they cannot give you a conclusive answer

Or maybe they have read this thread, seen what a total A hole you are and decided to mess you around for a laugh

Edited August 6, 2013 by darrendsd

[lemoncake]

So they must be Trolls as well then as like everyone else they are telling you what you don't want to hear

Or maybe they have read this thread, seen what a total A hole you are and decided to mess you around for a laugh

Lets get this right!

You do not have a business in Thailand

You have not got a clue about business at all it seems

You have not dealt with Labor Department

And yet you feel you have something to contribute and continue to troll even after being asked to stop trolling?

Did i miss something?

[harrry]

Let him do what he wants to. He can afford the court case.

[lemoncake]

Let him do what he wants to. He can afford the court case.

Yes it would be a great case, i wonder how it will go.

Plaintiff: I have been working for 4 days and was caught stealing on my 4th day.

Now they do not want to pay me for 4 days when i was being trained.

I did sign company rules, where it said if caught stealing would not be paid, but i not care and want to be paid for 4 days.

May be i did steal on other 3 days, but they not catch me.

I also steal tips from the rest of the staff, but i not care they must pay me for 4 days, so i can go take job at other place and steal there until they catch me.

[darrendsd]

Actually I used to have a business here probably long before you did

No you are right I have never dealt with the Labour dept

I was not trolling before but due to your repeated rudeness to myself and other posters I have now decided to and I guess a few more have and a few more will as you obviously get wound up by it and your attitude deserves it

If you have numerous posters who are trying to help you telling you you are a rude A hole then maybe it's time to look at yourself

It's been a great evenings entertainment on a otherwise very boring night but it's time for bed now, no doubt there will be another couple of pages added to this thread in the morning, more of the same of what has been said already, people trying to help you and you dismissing them, oh and a few more people calling you a A hole, seems to be a common theme on this thread

Edited August 6, 2013 by darrendsd

[oldsailor35]

Slave labour??? No wages??

If you are the employer then you have the right to recruit and dismiss who you choose, of course I understand that you must protect your business and company interests so anyone who dips there hand and is caught red handed should be dealt with and and disciplined, but regardless of thai employment regulations see common sense and pay people a fair days wage for a fair ( and honest ) days work.

let me repeat again,

If you do not have a business in Thailand and just guessing,or sharing the law in your home country, please do not respond as it is irrelevant

If you need to be so dogmatic about this, get the hell out of TV with your problem and "PAY" a lawyer.

[oldsailor35]

My employee was caught stealing 10,000 baht from our company and the labour dept advised us to pay him his full severance pay upon termination.

There ya go Lemoncake, sound advice from Kurnell and you don't even have to pay his lawyer.

[tingtongteesood]

Fire him, tell him he gets what he stole in lieu of pay, if he has a problem with that then his lawyer can talk to your lawyer and leave it at that, but be warned he may burn your shop down in retaliation or come back with a gun, people have died for less here....

[kurnell]

Fire him, tell him he gets what he stole in lieu of pay, if he has a problem with that then his lawyer can talk to your lawyer and leave it at that, but be warned he may burn your shop down in retaliation or come back with a gun, people have died for less here....

11.34pm. I am guessing at least 6 large Leo's

[cornishcarlos]

This a great bit of entertainment...

You have been advised by the Labor Dept to pay, it says in the Labor Laws to pay, numerous people on here with experience have advised you to pay plus,

"As i mentioned earlier i have a 2 page very detailed company rules and regulations which must be signed prior to accepting the job, however according to Labor Department and lawyer, this rules and regulations are meaningless, should the matter go to Labor Court."

Your contract and rules are illegal, according to the Labor Dept and again a lawyer

I suggest you pay... Fire the employee, after showing him the evidence and then sell your hotel and retire to another country and annoy the cr*p out of all the forum members there...

That's my advice....

P.S do NOT open another hotel when you get there, you are not a people person

Edited August 6, 2013 by cornishcarlos

[darrendsd]

Fire him, tell him he gets what he stole in lieu of pay, if he has a problem with that then his lawyer can talk to your lawyer and leave it at that, but be warned he may burn your shop down in retaliation or come back with a gun, people have died for less here....

Let's hope so, at least there will be no more posts from the most annoying poster on TV

Edited August 6, 2013 by darrendsd

[jame trim]

We are accredited to SEDEX which is ethics of business and deposits are prohibited, if we find theft we have a management review panel including the accused that tries to find the truth behind the reason for need for theft. In 100% of these cases theft is returned, person usually resigns but not always, however we never have a repeat from that person. Our process is open and all employees say we are more than fair, especially the opportunity to delve into the need. I have around 800 employees, abenteeism around 0.3% month on month.

[CiaranO]

To the OP - you have 3,623 posts and you still dont know how TV works yet ? - oh boy

You must pay the employee for everyday worked regardless of their dismissal. You can deduct the amount they stole if u havnt already had it returned. Your contract sounds illegal - regardless if they signed it - so it will be null and void in a court.

[darrendsd]

To the OP - you have 3,623 posts and you still dont know how TV works yet ? - oh boy

You must pay the employee for everyday worked regardless of their dismissal. You can deduct the amount they stole if u havnt already had it returned. Your contract sounds illegal - regardless if they signed it - so it will be null and void in a court.

Don't bother trying to help he will be sat in a room somewhere with his fingers in his ears singing La la la I'm not listening to you La la la

3,623 posts, 3600 of them are posts calling people Trolls

Edited August 7, 2013 by darrendsd

[BrianCR]

Under Thai labour law you are NOT allowed to stop any money from salary unless the employee agrees with this in writing. If stoppages are included in a written contract money maybe stopped unless the employee claims that they were (forced to sign that contract). In the case of theft you are legally entitled to dismissed the employee without notice or any such other payment other than the time actually worked.

The theft should be reported to the police and legal action taken to protect yourself against a future claim for wrongful dismissal. You may then also start a civil case to recover your property BUT, legally you can't stop it from the salary!

In practice things work slightly differently, before you pay salary, you inform the employee that you intend to call in the police and prosecute or that the employee returns the goods or signs an agreement stating that he or she stole the goods and offers his or her salary by way of compensation. In return for doing this the police will NOT be called in! Most employees will agree with the latter part.

Thanks for that, as i mentioned in the past when employees were caught stealing and police was called, nothing happened, police did not even follow up, even when i pressed charges.

So are you saying that even police were not to take action, still need to file a police report? even for employees who are on probation so dismissing them is not a problem

Hi

Yes if it comes to that (reporting to the police) which should always happen to save a wrongful dismissal case against you however, as I said it is much better to try the threat of getting the police involved but then offer to relent if they sign a document admitting the theft and agreeing to reimburse you by returning the goods or allowing you to keep the wage. The threat of doing it is the important part but, if they won't agree with wage and signing then you must report it to prevent a wrongful dismissal case against you. Hope that is a bit clearer

Thanks for clarifying. In my last case, it is caught on CCTV, admitting or denying makes no difference as there is hard evidence of making a sale and putting money into the pocket..

In my case employee only worked for 4 days so dismissal is not an issue, its only the matter of pay for 4 days.

The amount is dismal, but its the matter of principal paying someone who is a thief.

The amount is irrelevant as stealing is stealing. Always remember the labour department is heavily weighed on the side of the employee and at local labour department level it is generally safe to say that the officer dealing with it will interpret the law to suite the occasion and the ex employee. What they are looking for is a quick agreement without going to court therefore, it is always better to have as much evidence as possible to back up your claim.

I have personally defended my company perhaps 5/6 times at a labour court and won each time (I get a kick out of doing it). Judges are generally fair but make silly statements quite regularly.I quote the following case as an example;

One employee who had only worked for us about six months decided to quit, formally gave his one month notice and was due to be paid his salary. However my company had a ruling that "at the MD's decision, employee's would be paid a monthly bonus of not more than 20% with this bonus not applying to the first or last month of employment". As this employee had only worked 6 months and we had spent a large amount of money and time on training him (in video editing) I decided that the 20% bonus would not be paid.

He went to the labour department and I (with a translator) attended. I told the officer (who tried his hardest to get us to pay) that I would not and will happily go to court. About a month later we all attended court and the employee gave his version to the 3 judges who were hearing the case. After his evidence it was my turn so i asked the court if a legally signed agreement is accepted in Thailand, they said yes and so I produced the employees contact of employment and my translator read them the rule then, passed the contract to them for examination.

The leading judge asked the employee to leave the court and then said to me that the contract was indeed legal but, as the amount of money was so small he thought that we should have paid it. I replied that I agreed that it was a fairly small amount and then invited him to multiply it by 500 (the number of employees we had) offering him the suggestion that after doing that it didn't seem to be so small!

He recalled the employee into court and dismissed the case! The moral? They will constantly try until the end to get you to pay!

[BrianCR]

I just noticed the unpaid trial bit - this is not legal if employing but you could offer an unpaid internship for training reasons with the possibility of a full time position after completing the internship. The biggest problem here is that because of the unpaid bit you might encourage the person to steal with his/her view that he or she has to live for that week! I do have every sympathy for you as both you and I know that the hardest thing about running a business here in Thailand is staff behaviour!

[louse1953]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

And what makes you think Thai lawyers know this? and/ or i have not asked already?

According to company lawyer, without any reference if caught stealing do not pay anything at all, but again for the 3rd time, i am wanting to know the actual law NOT what you think or guess and NOT what Thai lawyer thinks

Why are you asking farangs about Thai law.You spoke to a lawyer,trained in Thai law,if you don't listen to him,up to you.

[robblok]

This a great bit of entertainment...

You have been advised by the Labor Dept to pay, it says in the Labor Laws to pay, numerous people on here with experience have advised you to pay plus,

"As i mentioned earlier i have a 2 page very detailed company rules and regulations which must be signed prior to accepting the job, however according to Labor Department and lawyer, this rules and regulations are meaningless, should the matter go to Labor Court."

Your contract and rules are illegal, according to the Labor Dept and again a lawyer

I suggest you pay... Fire the employee, after showing him the evidence and then sell your hotel and retire to another country and annoy the cr*p out of all the forum members there...

That's my advice....

P.S do NOT open another hotel when you get there, you are not a people person

The guy does not understand you can write anything in your contract but if it goes against the law its invalid. Its not much different in other countries.

Now on a practical note I doubt this would go to court, but the guy is right. (however wrong it feels)

Edited August 7, 2013 by robblok

[louse1953]

Under Thai labour law you are NOT allowed to stop any money from salary unless the employee agrees with this in writing. If stoppages are included in a written contract money maybe stopped unless the employee claims that they were (forced to sign that contract). In the case of theft you are legally entitled to dismissed the employee without notice or any such other payment other than the time actually worked.

The theft should be reported to the police and legal action taken to protect yourself against a future claim for wrongful dismissal. You may then also start a civil case to recover your property BUT, legally you can't stop it from the salary!

In practice things work slightly differently, before you pay salary, you inform the employee that you intend to call in the police and prosecute or that the employee returns the goods or signs an agreement stating that he or she stole the goods and offers his or her salary by way of compensation. In return for doing this the police will NOT be called in! Most employees will agree with the latter part.

Thanks for that, as i mentioned in the past when employees were caught stealing and police was called, nothing happened, police did not even follow up, even when i pressed charges.

So are you saying that even police were not to take action, still need to file a police report? even for employees who are on probation so dismissing them is not a problem

Hi

Yes if it comes to that (reporting to the police) which should always happen to save a wrongful dismissal case against you however, as I said it is much better to try the threat of getting the police involved but then offer to relent if they sign a document admitting the theft and agreeing to reimburse you by returning the goods or allowing you to keep the wage. The threat of doing it is the important part but, if they won't agree with wage and signing then you must report it to prevent a wrongful dismissal case against you. Hope that is a bit clearer

Thanks for clarifying. In my last case, it is caught on CCTV, admitting or denying makes no difference as there is hard evidence of making a sale and putting money into the pocket..

In my case employee only worked for 4 days so dismissal is not an issue, its only the matter of pay for 4 days.

The amount is dismal, but its the matter of principal paying someone who is a thief.

You don't get it,working and thieving are two seperate issues.

[louse1953]

So they must be Trolls as well then as like everyone else they are telling you what you don't want to hear

Or maybe they have read this thread, seen what a total A hole you are and decided to mess you around for a laugh

Lets get this right!

You do not have a business in Thailand

You have not got a clue about business at all it seems

You have not dealt with Labor Department

And yet you feel you have something to contribute and continue to troll even after being asked to stop trolling?

Did i miss something?

Yeh,you missed the bit about you being an r-sole.

[mrtoad]

Yes, theft is pandemic here. If it's not nailed down, it will go walkabout - and it's not just the rank and file workers that are guilty of this - often the worst culprits are managers. In particular I have found the level of corruption and dishonesty within the hotel sector (from my experience) to be entrenched - skimming, stealing, skiving seem to be a qualification. So you really need to get a grip of how you manage these staff and make them accountable.

Get a copy in English of The Labour Protection Act 1998

The OP needs to really look at the way he is managing his staff, and get a very detailed Company Rules and Regulations handbook printed - he says his is two pages, well from experience ours is around 72 pages. Your staff are your gretest asset, and can also be your most problematic - get detailed and clear contracts in place, make sure your Rules and Regulation of Work are detailed and clear , you can get Labour office to check (again though you need to make sure that you have a good relationship with them). Make sure your security is tightened up - bag checks, and only certain exits for staff when they leave, cameras if you can in specific areas.

With regards to with-holding monies , you really need to check the terms and conditions that you have employed the staff under - and if you have conditions whereby loss of property / theft etc means that the person is responsible for reimbursement. Sometimes, you have to be tough otherwise staff will think they can get away with it. All in all seems like it's a problem you've had before, so look at ways of preventing it / reducing it.

As i mentioned earlier i have a 2 page very detailed company rules and regulations which must be signed prior to accepting the job, however according to Labor Department and lawyer, this rules and regulations are meaningless, should the matter go to Labor Court.

Labor Law, also does not seem to have a clause in regards to theft in the first few days of employment,

I know matters are different should be it a perm employee ie after 120 days of probation, but this is the case of 4 days of employment and hence the confusion and different answers.

In my rules and regulations it states if caught stealing, will be dismissed and loss of salary for that month plus legal action, but what i am trying to find is a reference to the actual law in my particular case of only been employed 4 days.

pay the 4 days, file a report and get rid of the staff. What a drama