Two Work Permits Available In Bangkok

[Indo-Siam]

I run a company in Bangkok called the Indo-Siam Group, which provides business services. I also own and control another company in Bangkok – which I have been operating on behalf of an overseas client. This second company – which has 4,000,000 baht registered capital - existed primarily to provide work permits to two individuals working under contract at a medical research institute here in Bangkok. That contract has come to a close, and my responsibilities to support client work permits has ended.

So – I now own a company that is capable of sponsoring two work permits. I am now looking for individuals who can make use of this situation.

What I am seeking is two individuals to sponsor for work permits – they provide their own customers, work tasks, and revenue generation – and contribute a fixed monthly “profit” contribution to the company. They also cover certain infrastructure costs. In return, they get fully legitimate employment – plus the company can issue invoices and receipts to the employee’s customers – with incoming revenues going to a company bank account over which employee has exclusive control.

Specifics:

1. We provide an employment sponsorship letter, to support employee getting a non-immigrant visa.

2. We provide a work permit – cost to employee is 850 baht to government, 3,500 baht to Indo-Siam Group to process.

3. Each month, employee provides cash to the company as follows:

a. 15,000 baht monthly profit contribution

b. 1,500 baht social fund contribution

c. Personal income tax withholding on salary specified in work permit.

d. Any VAT or corporate tax due on invoiced revenues.

4. Each quarter, employee must pay to revalidate work permit – 850 baht to government, 1,500 baht to Indo-Siam Group. At present, company is not eligible to sponsor long-term entry permits, due to it presently having only one Thai employee..

5. That is it. Any revenue generated in excess of the above amounts belongs to the employee – be it 50 baht, or 500,000 baht per month.

I envision this situation being ideal for someone in one of the following situations:

1. You work for an overseas company – and are presently paid directly to a personal bank account somewhere. You and/or your employer wish for you to be “fully legal” in Thailand. You and employer have no problem with Thai company invoicing overseas employer monthly for approximately 85,000 baht per month – of which approximately 54,000 baht net will be paid to you as in-country salary each month. (Note: This is the exact scenario under which company has been operating over the past year).

2. You are an entrepreneur in Bangkok, with a B-2-B deliverable product or service - operating “off the books.” You are having difficulty further growing your business because of your inability to provide tax receipts to Thai B-2-B customers. We can employ you, and provide accounts receivable support – with a banking program set up so that you have full control over all revenues you generate. Each month, you turn over the company headquarters the fees described above – you have total control over remaining balance.

3. There might also be an opportunity here for an educator - who wants to opertate as a contract educational consultant. But - the overhead costs may be too high for this to work out.

This is a straightforward proposition – everything will be handled with total transparency.

If you are legally married to a Thai, and already have a long-term entry permit extension, then you can get a long-term work permit right from the start - and with sufficient monthly salary generated locally, you can avoid having to remit annual lump sum funds into Thailand from overseas.

Work permits are available as of May 1st.

If you are interested in further exploring this opportunity, please contact me via e-mail.

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

Bangkok

[email protected]

www.bangkokstaff.com

Edited April 13, 2006 by Indo-Siam

[Septic]

Indo-Siam versus Solo (creating your own company with 1-3 workers)

Costs with Indo-Siam above and beyond Solo.

0 - Initial Work Permit. Have to pay whether you go Solo or with Indo-Siam

180,000 - Overhead to Indo-Siam (15k * 12 months)

0 - Social Fund. Have to pay whether you go Solo or with Indo-Siam

0 - Personal Income Tax. Have to pay whether you go Solo or with Indo-Siam

0 - VAT / Corporate Tax. Have to pay whether you go Solo or with Indo-Siam

0 - Revalidate Work Permit. Have to pay whether you go Solo or with Indo-Siam

1 Year cost of Indo-Siam over going solo: 180,000

Costs going Solo above and beyond Indo-Siam

60,000 - Setting up a Company with preferential shares giving you sole control of a Thai company.

0 - Initial Work Permit. Have to pay whether you go Solo or with Indo-Siam

0 - Social Fund. Have to pay whether you go Solo or with Indo-Siam

0 - Personal Income Tax. Have to pay whether you go Solo or with Indo-Siam

0 - VAT / Corporate Tax. Have to pay whether you go Solo or with Indo-Siam

0 - Revalidate Work Permit. Have to pay whether you go Solo or with Indo-Siam

60,000 - Virtual Office

50,000 - Remedial accounting and office assistance

10,000 - Annual Audit

1 Year costs Solo above and beyond Indo-Siam: 180,000

Cost Comparison:

1-Year: Indifferent. Cost comparison on a 1-year basis is even. Both are 180,000

Greater than 1-Year: Clear edge to going solo. You don't have to spend another 60k to start another company after year 1.

Intangibles:

Day-to-day office headaches: Edge to Indo-Siam. Indo-Siam will probably take care of any office headaches within reason (before they start charging). Going solo, you'd have to get someone to take care of them for you. I factored part of that into the Remedial account and office assistance but Indo-Siam has the edge.

Control: Edge to Solo. You don't have to worry about the Company going south or any other dealings that the company is involved with because it will be all you. This also goes for past company history.

Ownership: Edge to Solo. Your own company, you call all the shots. You can sign any binding agreements for the Company. You don't need an Indo-Siam signature to sign binding contract agreements. Doing business in Thailand, you often need to get paperwork signed and Indo-Siam may balk binding the Company to a contract because of the penalties involved if you don't deliver the service/goods promised. If you decide to stop work, Indo-Siam would be stuck with the penalties, you're just a worker (though this can be a benefit to working with Indo-Siam if you don't have any intention of following through, though it's not something recommended. Very small community over here!).

Am I missing something?

Alternatively, you can give me 175,000 and I'll setup your company for you and you'll save 5,000 baht!!!

Septic Tank

[think_too_mut]

It looks like a mockery. Are you serious about:

3. Each month, employee provides cash to the company as follows:

a. 15,000 baht monthly profit contribution

b. 1,500 baht social fund contribution

[Indo-Siam]

I will just make one simple point. Take ANY FOREIGNER who is an EMPLOYEE in Thailand. Not an entreprenuer, but an EMPLOYEE.

Take any one employee - earning between 20,000 baht per month, and 500,000 baht per month - working for any employer - and tell me that the employing company is not counting on making more than a 15,000 baht per month spread between what this employee effectively brings into the company (whatever his actual role), and what is paid out to him.

No company in Thailand employs any foreigner without calculating that they will make a profit spread over and above that employee's salary. And - anyone who thinks that this spread is typically lower than 15,000 baht per month has absolutely no concept of how businesses work.

Juts think about it for a minute: A company has 20 employees, and a monthly total payroll of 400,000 baht. What do you think the other expenses are? Rent, electricity, telephones, water, ADSL, advertising, office supplies, taxes, social fund contributions, outsourced services - and (hopefully) profit. Does anyone think that a company that hires foreigners and has a monthly payroll of 400,000 baht is going to be bringing in revenues of less than 700,000 baht ? There is no point in a company BEING in business if it is not mkaing some profit, after expenses are paid. And - the pro-rate share of supporting infrastructure expenses will very quickly eat up a mere 15,000 baht spread above salary paid out.

A very simple factor missing from the cost comparison is the cost of a competent Thai administrative person. If you do not understand the details of how corporate tax is collected in Thailand for B-2-B transactions - if you are not intimately familiar with the four-copy color carbon set of Thai-language corporate tax witholding receipts that must be completed for EVERY invoice paid in Thailand, then you have NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER giving advice on this thread. A foreigner CAN NOT run a company effectively here without a fluent Thai speaking person assisting. If you get a good one - keeping them is going to cost more than 15,000 baht per month just for that one person.

There are a lot of foreign employees in Thailand. They are a much lower number of successful foreign entrepreneurs in Thailand. Successful entrepreneurship absolutely can be done here. But - it takes a combination of VERY hard work, ability to quickly recover from mistakes, a lot of investment capital, and - a substantial degreee of good luck. Being the driving force of entreprenuership for a company is - in iteslf - a consumer of time and energy - time and energy which will be diverted away from the "business mission" of your professional activity.

Personally, I would hope that any entrepreneurial individual who signed up with my "sponorship" program would - eventually - "spin off" into running their own company. But - along the way - they can probably benefit from learning how everything works while being "sponsored" in the near term.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[think_too_mut]

Sorry, too long to read.

You should have a 1 line explanation.

Leaving you with your story.

[meom]

I envision this situation being ideal for someone in one of the following situations:

1. You work for an overseas company – and are presently paid directly to a personal bank account somewhere. You and/or your employer wish for you to be “fully legal” in Thailand. You and employer have no problem with Thai company invoicing overseas employer monthly for approximately 85,000 baht per month – of which approximately 54,000 baht net will be paid to you as in-country salary each month. (Note: This is the exact scenario under which company has been operating over the past year).

Would it be possible in your scenario that the employee himself works overseas as well?

[Indo-Siam]

Would it be possible in your scenario that the employee himself works overseas as well?

I don't understand.

The base assumption is that the person who is working for an overseas company is based in Thailand - and - for whatever reason - wants a work permit here, but has no local employer.

If a work permit is issued here, a monthly salary must be specified, and - in order to renew that work permit - personal income tax withholding on that specified salary amount must have been paid for each month since the work permit was issued.

If someone sprent little time actually in Thailand - but (for whatever reason) wanted a work permit here, we could support that. But - the individual would have to be on the ground in Thailand to renew that work permit every time it was about to expire.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[meom]

I'm presently employed in the middle-east and might wish to work for myself in future.

The idea behind my question was if it would be possible to start a company in Thailand, get a workpermit, visa etc. and provide consultancy services across the region.

If above construction is possible the follow-up question would be regarding residency. The company obviously pays taxes and on the salary I give myself taxes are also been paid. Considering this would I be able to apply for PR. I'm not sure cause i read somewhere that any applicant for PR should remain continuous in Thailand which will not be possible if services are provided outside Thailand.

[Septic]

How about the simple point of not justifying your scheme from your point of view as the seller.

Instead trying it from the consumer's point of view.

From the consumer's point of view, what you have to offer is a "valuable" service, but this "valuable" service can be had for much cheaper and under much better circumstances if they formed their own company.

Please don't give me a bunch of garbage about filling out corporate tax withholding receipts and hiring someone as an employee is going to cost more than 15k a month. You know you can get a decent thai law/accountant firm to handle this for a coupleof thousand a month to cover a couple of invoices to customers and VAT tax receipts for equipment. Anyone can confirm this by doing a couple of searches on the net and making some calls. In my cost comparison, that's the 50k for remedial accounting and office support.

If someone lives here and has a network, they can easily find an accountant to moonlight a couple hours a month for just 2k.

"A foreigner CAN NOT run a company effectively here without a fluent Thai speaking person assisting."

I thought this was what Indo-Siam was for... The ability to run a company and not having to have a fluent Thai speaking person because Indo-Siam offers bookkeeping and virtual office to take care of all the back office operations (like many other companies in Thailand).

If Indo-Siam really doesn't offer these services, there are quite a number of firms in Thailand who offer full back office support from full accounting to virtual office needs so you don't even need a Thai speaking assistant. And for less than the 120,000 that I have estimated for a year!

I feel embarrassed for writing this because your company is supposed to give out quality information for doing business in Thailand and generally does. This is just stupid.

You also have not addressed the issue of binding contracts and negative/non-performance clauses. What would you be willing to sign for someone who is ignorant enough to use your "service" and become an "employee"?

Septic Tank

[Septic]

Meom:

Permanent Residence is a tough one. You can get a good idea from here, but it might be to legally convoluted: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/do...tion4extend.doc

Brief rundown:

You need to have a minimum of 3 years of consecutive long stay (1-year) visas with no overstays etc...

Be in good standing

Read and write thai

100,000 baht fee

You can get some good information from this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19900

Normally I'd say talk to someone like Indo-Siam, but they aren't making much sense here at all.

http://www.chiangmailaw.com/visaresidency.htm has some good info, but they don't say anything about Thai language skills.

If you form your own Company, then you really don't have a problem. Just do 1-year business visas. Something I'm sure Indo-Siam (or any of a host of other companies) would be happy to help you extend with your work permit.

Septic Tank

[sting01]

How about the simple point of not justifying your scheme from your point of view as the seller.

Instead trying it from the consumer's point of view.

From the consumer's point of view, what you have to offer is a "valuable" service, but this "valuable" service can be had for much cheaper and under much better circumstances if they formed their own company.

Please don't give me a bunch of garbage about filling out corporate tax withholding receipts and hiring someone as an employee is going to cost more than 15k a month. You know you can get a decent thai law/accountant firm to handle this for a coupleof thousand a month to cover a couple of invoices to customers and VAT tax receipts for equipment. Anyone can confirm this by doing a couple of searches on the net and making some calls. In my cost comparison, that's the 50k for remedial accounting and office support.

If someone lives here and has a network, they can easily find an accountant to moonlight a couple hours a month for just 2k.

"A foreigner CAN NOT run a company effectively here without a fluent Thai speaking person assisting."

I thought this was what Indo-Siam was for... The ability to run a company and not having to have a fluent Thai speaking person because Indo-Siam offers bookkeeping and virtual office to take care of all the back office operations (like many other companies in Thailand).

If Indo-Siam really doesn't offer these services, there are quite a number of firms in Thailand who offer full back office support from full accounting to virtual office needs so you don't even need a Thai speaking assistant. And for less than the 120,000 that I have estimated for a year!

I feel embarrassed for writing this because your company is supposed to give out quality information for doing business in Thailand and generally does. This is just stupid.

You also have not addressed the issue of binding contracts and negative/non-performance clauses. What would you be willing to sign for someone who is ignorant enough to use your "service" and become an "employee"?

Septic Tank

I think you miss the point of the proposal, the goal is simply to offer a service to people who have stable income (or so), but who ( for several reasons) do not have or can not have a WP.

I can say it's a worst thing existing here in thailand the fact to go monthly to visa run, visa than ca be denied at any time by any immigration officer on the very legitimate ground you are not a tourist after 2 years, 4 years 10 years .....

For the usual 'backpacker' it's not a problem anyway, but for people who run business and are in this position, the proposition can be interrested. Or at least it's how I get it, and knwing IndoSiam I can simply say it's how you have to get it.

He run a business, not a charity organisation, so if he get money that is the game, on the other hand that is a huge service for what some people will be glad to pay : you will got immeditly a WP, usually it takes month (more than a year) to get one as individual (must past throught several temporary WP).

Now, there is something who stand and you maybe rightly poited on : the cost. Well if what IndoSiam is too expensive, noone serious will contact hime and he will lower a bit the price. If the price is fair, so at this moment he should have got already the people (assuming IndoSiam is still able to select the right people from the usual 'unable to pay' ######s.

The main objection can be that one : a normal person able to run a business who cash 150 000 bht a month as benefit should have create a company long time ago, hire 4 thais, and got a WP for himself. But there is still people who run business, did not created a company because it started small (hobby) and who are right now thinking about the next move. That proposition can help them by lowering the cost (but not suppres them, well as stated it's also a business).

By the way, I am not afiliate with IndoSiam, nor speak for him. I just tell my mind and my own understanding of the proposition. I can be wrong, I can be OT also.

[Indo-Siam]

OK, folks - there are several people (trolls?) here who are trying to paint the picture that a foreigner in Thailand can start a business, select his desired salary level, and then be successful - and all they need to do is bring in total revenue that is a bit less than 15,000 baht over and above their desired salary level.

Now - you can believe them - or you can believe me - and I'm telling you that you can't do it.

I know what I'm talking about - I run two Thai companies, plus one offshore company - and one of my companies runs accounting services for about a dozen small business clients.

If anyone builds a business plan for a new business in Thailand that calls for bringing in less than 15,000 baht revenue per month, over and above intended payroll payout - you are going to fail. Period.

But - you are welcome to try.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[~G~]

I think 15K a month is pretty low compared to the potential risk from such non-supervised, independent employees. I actually met a person suggesting to be a sub-contractor of mine, Invoice my company by his foerign company, and use my company for Invoicing in Thailand. Deduct my office costs and share the profits 50:50.

I didn't go for it since this guy didn't seem reliable enough. Eventually he turned out to be a crook, collecting advances from clients and not delivering anything. I just imagine the amount of problems I'd have to handle if it was my company who did the Invoicing.

[sting01]

I think 15K a month is pretty low compared to the potential risk from such non-supervised, independent employees. I actually met a person suggesting to be a sub-contractor of mine, Invoice my company by his foerign company, and use my company for Invoicing in Thailand. Deduct my office costs and share the profits 50:50.

I didn't go for it since this guy didn't seem reliable enough. Eventually he turned out to be a crook, collecting advances from clients and not delivering anything. I just imagine the amount of problems I'd have to handle if it was my company who did the Invoicing.

Certainly jail I think, if some of the people did sued you.

That is why I said it was normal IndoSiam expected to get some return with that proposal.

[autonomous_unit]

Right, it seems to me that the two complicated factors here in valuing the service are: 1) the outlay of the company's capitalization which makes it qualify for work permits, and 2) the risks and complexity of passing the contractual obligations from overseas contractor to subcontracting employee/consultant. It can be tricky enough to get the direct contracts set up to everyone's satisfaction when the remote employee operates his own company...

Running your own company, you are the one fronting the seed capital and dealing with all the contractual risks in a straightforward way. Also, if you own your own company, you have some flexibility in how to manage assets, i.e. how much to distribute as salary versus rolling into company assets for later distribution, depending on your tax situation or the steadiness of your overseas contract work. This would also seem daunting to orchestrate with someone else owning the company assets.

My experience with the trials of setting up my own company is consistent with what Indo-Siam says except maybe in the exact overhead amount. If you are not forced into having excess Thai employees for visa extension or other reasons, the basic ongoing accounting overheads (ignoring startup fees) can be quite small. A few monthly invoices, company expenses, and monthly salary/tax withholding for all employees of record. If you can colocate a consulting business out of your Thai residence, as we did, there are really no other operating overheads. Renting an office could cost more than all the bookkeeping. Of course, if you have to carry excess employees, their salaries, tax, social security etc. all must be considered as overhead.

It does require someone you trust who speaks Thai and who you trust implicitly. For us, that is my wife moonlighting in my company to spoonfeed a Thai accounting firm. We tried several different services and eventually found that we had to spend the personal effort to oversee things no matter who we hired to help. There are simply too many mistakes and careless inefficiencies in the services we obtained from any outside service bureau, whether one of the big multi-nationals or a local Thai accountant recommended by friends. (I never used Indo-Siam and so this is not a comment about the service being discussed here.) We still outsource accounting and audit, but we basically have to inspect and review everything at an excrutiating level of detail. Sometimes I feel that we have hired a typist. But other times, they have helped sort things out that we misunderstood, so it is not really as bleak as that.

[Septic]

who are trying to paint the picture that a foreigner in Thailand can start a business, select his desired salary level, and then be successful...

Now - you can believe them - or you can believe me - and I'm telling you that you can't do it.

Indo-Siam, why don't you cut the bullshit.

You are asking people to come to you with a revenue stream. By definition they already have a successful business. Guess what? They are already doing what you said they can't do!

THE REAL DEAL

You are offering them limited back office support and work permit sponsorship for 180,000 baht a year.

Any person can setup a Thai company and run it from a virtual office with work permit for the same price in one year (no employees, just like your scenario where you take 180,000 baht). This also includes accounting. More important, they also keep full control. 2-years and this solution is cheaper than yours buy a lot!!!

Rather than offering real value with your offer, it just looks like you want to make money off of another person's ignorance.

You position yourself as a thailand business guru yet you can't understand the buyer's perspective.

Isn't that embarassing?

Septic Tank

Edited April 19, 2006 by Septic

[sting01]

who are trying to paint the picture that a foreigner in Thailand can start a business, select his desired salary level, and then be successful...

Now - you can believe them - or you can believe me - and I'm telling you that you can't do it.

Indo-Siam, why don't you cut the bullshit.

You are asking people to come to you with a revenue stream. By definition they already have a successful business. Guess what? They are already doing what you said they can't do!

THE REAL DEAL

You are offering them limited back office support and work permit sponsorship for 180,000 baht a year.

Any person can setup a Thai company and run it from a virtual office with work permit for the same price in one year (no employees, just like your scenario where you take 180,000 baht). This also includes accounting. More important, they also keep full control. 2-years and this solution is cheaper than yours buy a lot!!!

Rather than offering real value with your offer, it just looks like you want to make money off of another person's ignorance.

You position yourself as a thailand business guru yet you can't understand the buyer's perspective.

Isn't that embarassing?

Septic Tank

@septic, you raise very strong point that I share mostly.

But there is soemthing you forget : the seller point of view. I know enought Indosiam to say the guy is honest (in 5 years in BKK, he is the one I can call like that), and I also know he got some weird clients in the past. What he does want it's to have another bad client who can not pay after a while (it's how I understand his position).

Anyway, I think by doing so , he is going far from those who can have the legal need of his solution, and or he will not find, or it will be another problem (someone doing business with 100 000 bht of earning permonth and who is not legit is or crazed or hidding something. Doing business with crazed people is not good, and doing business with some who are hidding something can be tricky or dangerous ... exemple : the russian mafia since a year and half is investing heavily here on legal business as porn webcam websites ... so yup it can be foreigner who earn that money and need a WP and ready to pay for, but ... mariskova as they use to say in Krasnoiarsk).

The russian link is not a dream/nightmare but a reallity amongst the 'stars' working in Nana. the venture was created 18 month ago.