Support sought for bill to curb foreign land grabbers throughout Thailand

[wolf5370]

Hawaii is a special case - perhaps more akin to the islands - there is limited space. A simple exclusion on the islands could easily be tacked on to any amendment to the law. Prices are pushed up in areas that are sought after - regardless of who is buying - Pattaya and Phuket beach front is very expensive - parts of Bangkok likewise. Single plots limited to domicile - and plots limited to companies regardless of ownership, but subject to planning permission, as usual, would not push up prices abnormally in other areas - indeed it could stimulate areas where there are plenty of workers available, that Thais would not look at (the impact of remoteness is less of a consideration when manufacturing for international suppliers), or for homes and retirement villages.

This leaves the sole reason for these laws and the 6 monthly sabre rattling and fear mongering about it - that those that currently buy up land en masse at low prices (no competition) can continue to do so - building concrete rabbit boxes as the urban sprawl steals away the country's identity, culture and ecology.

[gamini]

The most worrying piece of the article is the threat against foreigners that have leased land in Thailand. So, can't buy OK, can't lease either?? Thailand under the Shin dynasty is closing its doors.

Please reread OP. Leasing of agricultural land.

Not to be an apologist, but there are no SEA countries where foreigners can legally own land.

What do you mean. I had two properties in malaysia and three in Singapore. No problem. If your wife is Thai she can buy as many properties as she likes even using your money. I f you give her money as a present it is hers. If she buys property with the money it is 100 % legal

[nami]

I guess the main difference between us and the Chinese is they came here, run busineses, learned the language and, the most important, they was a lot of them and kept a strong sense of community which they used to push for their rights to be acknowledged. It looks like most farangs contribute to the economy with bar fines, can't be bothered to learn the language and the only sense of community is living in sukhumvit or pattaya. Not surprising that we can't do as the Chinese did. Just look at how many farangs apply for nationality, it seems most are here to not integrate in the society, I wonder why the country should give us any right equivalent to the locals when we are like in an extended holiday

On another hand, as much as I hate not being able to buy myself a house I still think the protectionism is good. I come from a country where richer retirees have bought entire towns in tourist areas and they can't also be bothered to learn the language or to integrate. I am sorry but is not nice and I can see why Thais don't want this for Thailand.

Maybe I am the only one but I agree with the fact that foreigners are not allowed to own land in Thailand.

For the same reason I do not agree with German nationals who own land in Switserland, English nationals who own land in New Zealand, French nationals who own land in Denmark or Swedish nationals who own land in Malaysia - I can continue for one hour but I think you go the point.

Land belongs to the people who legally live there and have a passport and it does NOT belong to people who are just have money to buy it!

And which planet is that a reality in? I think the key thing is how they can buy land anywhere worldwide, and how insecure, protectionist and hypocritical of the few Thai Chinese folk here who own most of the land...and false estimates that foreigners own 30% up...

We all have passports; the complaint is those who have family/made a family here/stay legally/have a family & invest, run a business here. Why can't they? Tons of Chinese migrants came and bought it all up a few generation ago, did they not? Point is, when you kick the bucket, it goes back into the hands of Thai nationals/your family...so why all the paranoia?

[Thai at Heart]

Someone said the foreigners can't own land in Southeast Asia. Not true. I am American and I owned a house and the land it sat on in Malaysia. It is completely legal to do that in M'sia. Can someone clarify something here for me? If a foreigner is married to a Thai and buys a house in her name, is she considered to only be a nominee and is allowing the evil farang to buy up the Kingdom, or is this allowed? Seems to me it doesn't violate the rules unless the marriage is a sham and only done on paper. What if the couple has a child and the land is given to the child? Thx

From another thread on T.V

Foreigners cannot use a Thai spouse as a nominee to buy property in Thailand, however.

If the Thai spouse has enough money to buy the house that is fine, but if the Thai has no money and uses money given to him or her by a foreigner to acquire property, that is against the law. If we check and find out later that a Thai person has been using money from a foreigner to buy land anywhere in Thailand, we will revoke title deeds, he said.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/268608-illegal-to-use-thai-spouse-as-nominee-in-land-ownership/

He can provide funds as a gift but must sign a document renouncing all call on the land.

There is nothing illegal with gifting money to your wife.

[catweazle]

Let's celebrate! The annual "let's show all foreigners, that we want their money, but not their physical presence here" scare joker has been pulled again... Always one of the most popular announcement cards for wannabe future PMs to gain thailand-wide recognition. I am getting sick and tired of it to say the least.

When will the day come, where we (non-Thais) will stop to copy the Thai way, i.e. smiling and discussing the biggest existing threat and problem here in LOS for us foreigners away, and call them straight out what a good 95% of them are... ahemmm.... "racists"?

Thais should be treated equally in western countries worldwide so they get a first hand experience of how it feels to be regarded to as a 2nd or 3rd class citizens in a foreign country with an R.T.P. = the right to pay.

Edited August 20, 2013 by catweazle

[wolf5370]

I guess the main difference between us and the Chinese is they came here, run busineses, learned the language and, the most important, they was a lot of them and kept a strong sense of community which they used to push for their rights to be acknowledged. It looks like most farangs contribute to the economy with bar fines, can't be bothered to learn the language and the only sense of community is living in sukhumvit or pattaya. Not surprising that we can't do as the Chinese did. Just look at how many farangs apply for nationality, it seems most are here to not integrate in the society, I wonder why the country should give us any right equivalent to the locals when we are like in an extended holiday

On another hand, as much as I hate not being able to buy myself a house I still think the protectionism is good. I come from a country where richer retirees have bought entire towns in tourist areas and they can't also be bothered to learn the language or to integrate. I am sorry but is not nice and I can see why Thais don't want this for Thailand.

The difference is that the Chinese COULD do all of this when they came - they were allowed to take Thai names and become Thais, run businesses, etc. They had to learn the language because Thais did not speak Mandarin (or the other x thousand of language in China). Westerners do no have the same ability and they also look different (and thus stand out). Thais are paranoid of the westerners colonial ways (they have no idea that the biggest colonists and the largest single spanning empire ever was Chinese!) and this is played out often to the uneducated hoi polloi.

Your last paragraph makes no sense really - in tourist areas the general language will be the language of the majority - if they majority of tourists in that area are Japanese, what difference would it make if they lived there or are always there as tourists? Indeed, by making citizenship easier, but requiring Thai at M6 level, then many more people would make the effort - by making it an almost impossible hoop to jump through (and a very expensive one too boot) the effect is the inverse, no need and just continue with non resident visas. Protectionism is never good as a whole sale policy - it makes sense to protect certain industries and certain lands - even perhaps limitation by percentage ownership (such as 25% of the land can be in foreign hands per area for example) - a carte-blanche policy simply isolates the country, frightens away investors, causes stagnation and in the long run is bad news (especially when so many opportunities are opening up in neighbouring countries with the same commodities and resources). Draconian attitude by people that only care about their own little world and bank accounts and could not carte less about the country or its people outside of that little world.

[Thai at Heart]

I guess the main difference between us and the Chinese is they came here, run busineses, learned the language and, the most important, they was a lot of them and kept a strong sense of community which they used to push for their rights to be acknowledged. It looks like most farangs contribute to the economy with bar fines, can't be bothered to learn the language and the only sense of community is living in sukhumvit or pattaya. Not surprising that we can't do as the Chinese did. Just look at how many farangs apply for nationality, it seems most are here to not integrate in the society, I wonder why the country should give us any right equivalent to the locals when we are like in an extended holiday

On another hand, as much as I hate not being able to buy myself a house I still think the protectionism is good. I come from a country where richer retirees have bought entire towns in tourist areas and they can't also be bothered to learn the language or to integrate. I am sorry but is not nice and I can see why Thais don't want this for Thailand.

The difference is that the Chinese COULD do all of this when they came - they were allowed to take Thai names and become Thais, run businesses, etc. They had to learn the language because Thais did not speak Mandarin (or the other x thousand of language in China). Westerners do no have the same ability and they also look different (and thus stand out). Thais are paranoid of the westerners colonial ways (they have no idea that the biggest colonists and the largest single spanning empire ever was Chinese!) and this is played out often to the uneducated hoi polloi.

Your last paragraph makes no sense really - in tourist areas the general language will be the language of the majority - if they majority of tourists in that area are Japanese, what difference would it make if they lived there or are always there as tourists? Indeed, by making citizenship easier, but requiring Thai at M6 level, then many more people would make the effort - by making it an almost impossible hoop to jump through (and a very expensive one too boot) the effect is the inverse, no need and just continue with non resident visas. Protectionism is never good as a whole sale policy - it makes sense to protect certain industries and certain lands - even perhaps limitation by percentage ownership (such as 25% of the land can be in foreign hands per area for example) - a carte-blanche policy simply isolates the country, frightens away investors, causes stagnation and in the long run is bad news (especially when so many opportunities are opening up in neighbouring countries with the same commodities and resources). Draconian attitude by people that only care about their own little world and bank accounts and could not carte less about the country or its people outside of that little world.

The Chinese eventually bought off the government and sold Thailand a story that they would act in the country's better interest, if they were granted protection......

Thais are genuinely stupid sometimes.....

[NovaBlue05]

Why not restrict the large entities seeking to acquire masses of land while allowing the foreigner who desire a rai of land to retire on. This is senseless. TIT

[iluvbeaches]

Every few months, years there are populist laws like this planned or supposed crackdowns. But nothing ever actually happens besides a few photo ops. Consider it the "tuk tuk mafia" or "jet ski scam" of the real estate industry. Impossible to get rid of because everybody is in it and makes money off it especially wealthy Phuket Thais.

But it is quite funny when every few months there seems to be a big group of "I told you so" people hoping for some big crash. Sadly in the 10 years I've known people to invest this way I have yet to read of one actual news story about someone losing their investment property. Just many "a friend of mine lost his property" - well if he did his wife took it off him.

[Beetlejuice]

I hope this bill becomes approved and is enforced.

It is common knowledge that foreigners are purchasing land and real estate through the back door and are the real owners using Thais to front their ownerships.

The argument for not allowing foreign nationals to own land and property is common sense for Thailand.

Permitting to let Westerners own land and property would be a disaster for Thailand. It would be a land grab and most of the Thais without any controls on the situation would be pushed out. Land and real estate values and prices would escalate becoming far out of reach for the average working class Thai person. We cannot equate the situation as within first world countries.

[hawker9000]

I hope this bill becomes approved and is enforced.

It is common knowledge that foreigners are purchasing land and real estate through the back door and are the real owners using Thais to front their ownerships.

The argument for not allowing foreign nationals to own land and property is common sense for Thailand.

Permitting to let Westerners own land and property would be a disaster for Thailand. It would be a land grab and most of the Thais without any controls on the situation would be pushed out. Land and real estate values and prices would escalate becoming far out of reach for the average working class Thai person. We cannot equate the situation as within first world countries.

That's fine. Thailand as much as any country on earth is certainly entitled to restrict foreign ownership. But let's not have any whining over the foregone foreign investment then, not blame foreigners for the economic impact, not expect foreign aid handouts when domestic revenues go south, and understand when retirees seek safer, more welcoming havens elsewhere for their lifetime earnings & pension incomes. I personally think this is a backward-looking perspective in today's global economic environment, and overlooks certain realities, but if that's what Thais feel is best for Thailand, then so be it.

[Bodrules]

The cynic in me says that somebody wants some land at fire sale prices, and this is a neat way of getting it.

Still, wonder how the Thais are going to cope with the influx of Chinese big hitters in the near future, who'll want to look after their investments in the colony country.

[mayday49]

This kind of talk is an antithesis to the ASIEAN concept of a structured trade association ,me thinks ...

[MB1]

The cynic in me says that somebody wants some land at fire sale prices, and this is a neat way of getting it.

Still, wonder how the Thais are going to cope with the influx of Chinese big hitters in the near future, who'll want to look after their investments in the colony country.

I always thought there already are big hitting Chinese in Thailand, who really does run Thailand ?, how much influence do the Chinese really have over Thailand, how many Thai/ Chinese live in Thailand, How many are in the Thai political scene that have partial Chinese origin, how many prime ministers have there been that have partial Chinese origin..

The Thai Chinese according to wiki " are well represented in all levels of Thai society and make up a significant percentage of Thailand's business and upper class".

Estimates of 2012 were that around 9 million Thai/Chinese were a part of Thailand.

So for those that are looking for a Thai/Chinese partner, it may not be as hard to find as some people say..

[boomerangutang]

I have to wait another 4 years to apply for a Thai passport to have the right to legally own land here. Do you really think it should be the right of only Thai citizens to own land here? Would it not bring additional money into Thailand if foreigners were allowed to buy land with whatever conditions, restrictions make locals feel safe? Ever notice all the abandoned looking property in urban areas that could be put to good use as a residence, small business? This is a potential gold mine for the government if they allow some land ownership by foreigners. The practice of using nominees isn't beneficial for the government, the Thais or foreigners.

It's true about abandoned property. Farang owning the same properties would take better care of it. I've secured 3 rural Thai properties, each for low price, 15 years ago. Each was completely covered in weeds. Really gnarly weeds; 3 meters high rife with stickers and thorns, along with bees nests, scorpions, etc. None had access roads, electric, or water. Now, after a farang and his local hired assistants (paid twice normal wages) have maintained it, each parcel is like a lovely park - all done for reasonably small investment. 100% of the millions of baht spent on those projects - was circulated in the neighborhood.

And then there are the plethora of concrete monuments from 1997 all over Thailand, slowly crumbling and getting covered in vines.... similar story of how Thais are generally remiss about taking care of properties. Incidentally, most of those crumbling mildew-covered structures are Chinese or Chinese-Thai owned.

As for foreign ownership: it's a two edged sword. On the one hand, it would run values/prices up for regular Thais - (yet Thais do that to themselves all the time). Another reason is value-added factor, as mentioned above. On the positive side, it would make it easier for Thais to sell properties at higher prices. Personally, I think long leases (similar to Mexico) are the best equation. Farang can feel secure in their investment, and can, as a group, spend hundreds of billions of baht (cumulatively) to improve the properties. Either their kids (half Thai, usually) wives or some other Thais will wind up with it, one way or another. The property won't get shipped back to farangland. It's win-win for Thais - even the xenophobics among them.

[catweazle]

I hope this bill becomes approved and is enforced.

It is common knowledge that foreigners are purchasing land and real estate through the back door and are the real owners using Thais to front their ownerships.

The argument for not allowing foreign nationals to own land and property is common sense for Thailand.

Permitting to let Westerners own land and property would be a disaster for Thailand. It would be a land grab and most of the Thais without any controls on the situation would be pushed out. Land and real estate values and prices would escalate becoming far out of reach for the average working class Thai person. We cannot equate the situation as within first world countries.

<deleted>! The property prices in Thailand are already "far out of reach for the average working class Thai person", and it was not foreigners who pushed prices there, but the Thai-Chinese, who basically run this country. How ignorant must a person be to believe the BS you just have typed?

In addition, where is the problem if long term expats here who can proof that they (let's say at least for 4 years) have been living and working here, paying taxes, social insurance, etc. and have not been in trouble with the law, to allow them to have their very own small (1 Rai) piece of paradise (for private use only), where they truly can feel at home with a legal foundation to build a life on?

The land grab already happened, Beetlejuice, and it's Thai-Chinese who have "the average working class Thai person" in a stranglehold property wise, but not foreigners who want to legally own their small piece of heaven legally.

[CMKiwi]

This is obviously a very important (And close to the heart) topic for many and I doubt that any answers or solutions from the Thai Government will be pleasing to the majority. The lease option although I hate leases is possibly an option whereby both parties may come to an agreement .

My biggest concern is that any lease between a Westerner and a Chinese/Thai owner is almost certain to become a nightmare. As has been said or mentioned in many forums, whenever improvements have been made to a property by the foreigner/lessee; the owner raises the rental/lease amount. Its all a bit arse about face but it is what happens and has resulted in a lot of foreigners/westerners just giving up on what in essense the built.

If there was a seperate body that dealt with long term leases then maybe just maybe we may see some fairness for the lessees, but as I imagine most TV members will be against raising yet another bureaucratic government organisation!

No easy fixes on this one and although I somewhat agree with applying the same rules to Thai nationals whom want to buy land in your home country, I dont think 'tit for tat' will really help anyone in the long term.

Edited August 21, 2013 by CMKiwi

[nontabury]

I hope this bill becomes approved and is enforced.

It is common knowledge that foreigners are purchasing land and real estate through the back door and are the real owners using Thais to front their ownerships.

The argument for not allowing foreign nationals to own land and property is common sense for Thailand.

Permitting to let Westerners own land and property would be a disaster for Thailand. It would be a land grab and most of the Thais without any controls on the situation would be pushed out. Land and real estate values and prices would escalate becoming far out of reach for the average working class Thai person. We cannot equate the situation as within first world countries.

Throughout the last few years I've read many post submitted by yourself, there is one theme that occurs many times, you seem to be Very jealous of other farangs who seem to have any money, however small that amount may be, I have visions of you living in a very small house, possibly made of bamboo whose s only boost in life is to tell everybody that your son is a member of that upstanding occupation, a Thai policeman..

[Naam]

I hope this bill becomes approved and is enforced.

It is common knowledge that foreigners are purchasing land and real estate through the back door and are the real owners using Thais to front their ownerships.

The argument for not allowing foreign nationals to own land and property is common sense for Thailand.

Permitting to let Westerners own land and property would be a disaster for Thailand. It would be a land grab and most of the Thais without any controls on the situation would be pushed out. Land and real estate values and prices would escalate becoming far out of reach for the average working class Thai person. We cannot equate the situation as within first world countries.

the average working class Thai person can't afford the accomodation 99% of foreigners can afford. there's no such thing like an "average working class Thai person" earning 8-12,000 Baht/month who can afford the cheapest shoebox size condo a "poor" foreigner can afford. and that does not only apply to expensive areas like Bangkok, Phuket or Pattaya but also to the wilderness around Nakhon Nowhere.

[jalansanitwong]

Why does the issue of farangs buying property in Thailand keep raising its ugly head ?

Everyone knows thats its dodgy at best or illegal to buy property here.

If you get involved in land deals in Thailand you may as well put a bullseye on your forehead.

This country is for the Thais.....not us. Kind and generous farangs who love their darling little wives come last in Thailand.

Thai's win every time. We lose and get the shove.

Even condos are a waste of time .What is the quality of the materials theyre constructed from and who built them.? Burmese labourers ?Who actually owns the land theyre built on ?

The biggest land grabbers in Thailand are politicans and officials not farangs.

What will happen to the status of ALL farang propertry in Thailand after the great man himself finally passes and we all know who takes the reigns.

Thats a big one ........ Invest your money at home where its safe. Thais dont really want us living here.

Got the hint yet?

[nontabury]

Not to spark the debate further, but does anybody know the origins or rationale for such laws? I would assume that it is to protect the Thai people from being taken advantage of by "comparatively more wealthy" foreigners. What I mean as an economist is that supply and demand are the basic drivers of price; since supply is finite in order to keep housing affordable the logical approach would be to limit demand.

The reason why a reciprocal law makes no sense in developed nations where so many posters are moaning that "Thais can own land" is that there are not significant numbers of Thai immigrants/visitors that are wealthier than the local population.

If anybody has a better way to keep pricing of land for Thais (yes, I said for Thais because this is Thailand after all), then I'm sure the gov't would love to hear it.

Many rich Thai's own property in the UK, there are even London property agents specifically aiming at the Thai market, as can be seen occasionally in adverts in Thia newspapers and magazines, with prices rising up to TWENTY MILLION POUNDS.

Harrods possible the most famous shop in the world, with very high prices used to boost that the number one nationality shopping at their store, were the Americans with all their dollars, now who has surpassed the Americans= Thai's.

This makes me think that a small but significant section of the Thai population, lets guess 10% , 7,000,000

Are very rich indeed. One thing I cannot understand is HOW they manage to transfer such large amounts out of the country, when there are so many restrictions in place.

[garydubbs]

I know a lot of thais who own lands and properties in different countries .... without any issues. Maybe its time for our governments to stop that practice and impose the same laws as we have here. I dont think any foreigners would leave the country with the land on the back anyway.

What an utter crock of crap. Who among us knows "lots of Thais who own land and properties in different countries"? What drivel.

I know a lot of Thais, and I don't know ANY who own lands and properties in different countries, however I'm sure there are more than a few who DO own SOME property in another country. But the fact of the matter is that most countries discourage foreign ownership of their dirt in one way or another. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it's the way it is in countries that I'm aware of.

Thailand is fantastic in that it allows us to remain in its country without having to jump through too many hoops. I wish good luck to the average Thai person who would like to stay in my country for any length of time, owning property or otherwise. It just is not going to happen.

Please give me some examples of countries where ordinary Thais can own lots of properties "without any issues" as you've stated?

TL

Oh pick me pick me I do, I know a thai who owns land and property abroad, actually I know 3.

Thanks. Actually the guy said "lots of Thais" and "without any issues", not, a Thai.

And as I said, I'm sure there are indeed some. Please read properly before commenting negatively.

And you didn't actually give an example anyway; you simply stated you know of 3. That doesn't tell or prove to anyone anything. Please let me know where their property is, and also understand that I don't mean property in some dumb location where no-one else wants to live, but somewhere in a respectable western country, that would provide a contrasting argument to that being posted.

TL

i know lots of thais who have overseas property for development and rental income. main areas are australia (melbourne,sydney), hong kong and london. i'm sure others who have spent time in the posher areas of bangkok do too.

a lot of wealthier thais have extended families and significant business interests in these areas

[lostmebike]

Under the bill, a committee to investigate “hidden” transactions would be set up.

Which in turn can bought off for a small fee

[lostmebike]

@thaimlord

I personally know some Thai families that own land, restaurants and houses in and around London.

[ingvar]

What is all this talk about Nominees?? If there is a Thai name on the Chanood, then the owner is that Thai person, period.

[dighambara]

Nationalism at it's highest. They're soooooo afraid of a farang actually buying land without the possibility of losing it to an exbargirl. This is BS.

Primarily, it is a ploy to keep the poor on cheap farm land. If a farmer with 50 rai could sell to a foreigner, he might have enough money to send his kids to private school in Bangkok and they might marry into the upper class - HEAVEN FORBID...!!!

Neauvo Riche are not on the current agenda...!!!

However, I do joke with Thai friends that the government is afraid foreigners will take the land with them when they leave.

[nontabury]

Nationalism at it's highest. They're soooooo afraid of a farang actually buying land without the possibility of losing it to an exbargirl. This is BS.

Primarily, it is a ploy to keep the poor on cheap farm land. If a farmer with 50 rai could sell to a foreigner, he might have enough money to send his kids to private school in Bangkok and they might marry into the upper class - HEAVEN FORBID...!!!

Neauvo Riche are not on the current agenda...!!!

.

This is soo true, the so called hi-so elite are terrified of any sort of competition, that may affect their privileges, far better to keep the masses uneducated and ignorant, makes them easier to manipulate with xenophobia rubbish such as these recommendations.

[garydubbs]

One thing I cannot understand is HOW they manage to transfer such large amounts out of the country, when there are so many restrictions in place.

its not hard to transfer money out of the country if the money is legitimate (taxes paid or imported prior), fill in the forms at any bank and transfer, its difficult to transfer money with no clear (read: legal) paper trail

[gemini81]

One thing I cannot understand is HOW they manage to transfer such large amounts out of the country, when there are so many restrictions in place.

its not hard to transfer money out of the country if the money is legitimate (taxes paid or imported prior), fill in the forms at any bank and transfer, its difficult to transfer money with no clear (read: legal) paper trail

Consult Thaksin via Skype, on how to wire it and launder it to Singapore.

[chooka]

@thaimlord

I personally know some Thai families that own land, restaurants and houses in and around London.

The Thai Government actually owns land in the Melbourne suburb of Box Hill. A decent sized block worth a few million AUD. They probably own other blocks as well but I only know of the one in Box Hill for sure.