What's Wrong with Renting?

[Resa]

I bought land and will build. For me this is far superior because I can build here however I like for rather little money. Its because I love designing and creating.

[Choonpon]

I am a strong subscriber of renting. There are many ways to leave a legacy for our loved ones in Thailand and the most practical is still cash and insurance although there are some who put an emotional attachment to leaving a house, so it's personal.

On a financial front there are many advantages of renting. There are fears that the landlord would raise the rent on renewal but there are also a possibility of better option and no loss to you.

Most landlords are reasonable and for them finding a good tenant is as important as you finding a good landlord. Most sensible landlord will not throw someone out just to get 1000,2000 baht more. They rather have someone that will turn their house into a wreck upon return

There are significant developments going on to keep the rent constant and the supply chain budging

As for having to store things, there are a load of cheap options ...just find a cheap room for 2000-3000 baht rental a month pay upfront for a year to get even more discount and you have a free storage space for more stuff

In my opinion, why leave behind all your hardearned money to your loved ones and you yourself don't spend and enjoy life? Especially if your children and grandkids are not filial to you.

Many people plan for their kids, save hard and dare not spend. In the end their kids especially once married, forgot about their parents. Only when they need money to buy house or when their parents' about time, then will they appear.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[KittenKong]

If someone invested 1,000,000 THB in a place to live when the exchange rate was 45THB to 1USD, are they still without common sense?

Exchange rate movements are totally irrelevant to whether a property purchase has shown a profit or not.

Anyone changing USD to Baht at 45 to 1 and putting the cash in the bank here would have done just as well, or just as badly had the exchange rate subsequently gone the other way, as it has done in the past.

[KittenKong]

There are lots of ways to store wealth and most are more liquid than real estate. For me buying would be a condo since I can't own land. Try to sell a condo in this market hahaha.

If you actually visit Thailand you will discover they are still building condos and selling condos a couple percent up from last year.

Bangkok Condominium Market Report Half Year 2013

New launches in Q2 2013 were down by 22% from the previous quarter, but the total of newly launched units in the first half 2013 was approximately 28,600, or around 12% higher than the first half of last year.

Do some reading before you shoot off your mouth based on the rumor you read on TV.

The average selling price for newly launched units .....

Maybe you should follow your own advice about research and mouth-shooting?

NeverSure seemed to be talking about resales, not new builds. Everyone knows that new builds as specifically mentioned in your quotes sell well. Thais like them, and agents love them because of the huge commissions. The discounts available on the (artificial) list price also make them look like a good buy to the unwary. Many are also bought by "flippers", misguided as they may be.

But reselling used condos is another story entirely. There are thousands of used condos for sale in Pattaya, and few takers.

[Robert2006]

It depends on your financial position. Owning property is a nice place to store wealth. If you don’t have a lot of excess money then you probably have never contemplated that thought. What to do with your money? Bonds, stocks, precious metals, art, real estate all offer a place to store wealth.

Renting in some properties could be a problem but in better developments you don’t have much to worry about, the people are respectful of one another.

Of Course to " Store Wealth " the price must rise ..If the Price in Stagnant , you actually loose money taking account if Inflation .

I would suggest Rather Strongly that Thailand is NOT the place to Invest , for any number of Reasons . Invest in your desired Nation ( Property ) ..

Enjoy Thailand , Rent a Lovely place , Its extremely easy to get long term leases . If you Wish to " Store " Money ..Put it in a term deposit in a Western Country and dont touch it , you will just now Track Inflation . Better Options , on the ASX etc , if you want some Income .

I dont see that there are any Social concerns on Renting / Buying , you would have to have neighbours either way .

I’m not suggesting that this be an investment just a method of storing wealth. I understand your point but look at what just happened in Cyprus, anything over 250,000k is not insured what do you do open 100 bank accounts?

Robert ..Exactly why I question Use of the Word " Storage " ..to Store you must maintain , to maintain there must be Growth ( to cover Inflation ) . My humble opinion would be that Thailand would be one of the Worst Places to " Store " Wealth ( In property ) ..Condo's ..forget it ! Pure and simple Wealth Destruction .

Money in another Asset Class ..And Just pay Rent . The Choices are simple , either Investment ( Forget it ) or Lifestyle , fine if the property is incredibly unique ..

And great for someone with Plenty , and for some 14,000,000 Barht is Jack ..So by all means enjoy the 14 Mill , if this is the Case . Otherwise Invest in a product much safer . ..

I understand what you’re saying; I guess my point is that deciding what to do with the money turns into a full time job.

I have a slightly different opinion of Thailand as a place to store wealth, certainly I would not move huge amounts of wealth into Thailand but I’ve seen some magnificent real estate here worth owning.

In almost any country a well selected piece of real estate will provide security for your wealth, it’s a convenient way to use a large sum and if your not concerned to squeeze every last advantage from each investment it’s a suitable method in my opinion.

[pomchop]

If you rent and need to return home for 6+ months, what do you do with all your stuff while you are not there?

If you rent, are you able to easily upgrade appliances such as refrigerator, clothes washer, TV, etc. ?

I just ask because I am curious. It seems to me, if you owned, you would always have a place to keep your stuff. You could customize your place any way you would like. With renting it seems like you are locked into stuff that you may not want or need. I have no experience in renting a place. Does the owner let you make changes if you sign a long lease?

I rent but if I went away I would still pay the rent as it would be cheaper than stroreing

So if you rent and you only are there six months a year and say you pay 25 k a month in rent that means you are really paying 50 k a month for the time you are there. That is one of the problems with renting. If you want to pay to store your stuff and pack it all up every few months and then find a new place when you return.... or live out of a suitcase with the most meager possessions for the rest of your life and if you want to be at the mercy of a landlord who can kick you out at anytime or a landlord who expects YOU to do any repairs or do without then renting might be a good idea. Or NOT.

Both renting and buying have problems. The best decision involves many factor and there is no one size fits all solution to the question.

Rent in CM for a condo or two bedroom house is about 5k a month.

I really don't want to live in a little box or a two bedroom house though. I've seen what you get for 5000 baht and while it's fine if that is what you want I prefer something a bit bigger and nicer. In Bangkok along sukhumvit 25 k a month for a one brm condo is not outrageous. As I said, 'one size does not fit all".

[hml367]

If someone invested 1,000,000 THB in a place to live when the exchange rate was 45THB to 1USD, are they still without common sense?

Exchange rate movements are totally irrelevant to whether a property purchase has shown a profit or not.

Anyone changing USD to Baht at 45 to 1 and putting the cash in the bank here would have done just as well, or just as badly had the exchange rate subsequently gone the other way, as it has done in the past.

Situations and circumstances could be different for different people.

If the person sold and repatriated the money the exchange rate would seem relevant, as well as taking into account the rent paid during that period.

[malt25]

Everyone wants a mortgage...... until they have one !!!

I've been a home owner in Australia for the past 40 years. Pride of ownership, status... all that stuff. Done MUCH research on rent V own. Renting in this "somewhat" unstable land wins hands down. Condo ownership, maybe. House & land NEVER !!!

To each his own.

[KittenKong]

Exchange rate movements are totally irrelevant to whether a property purchase has shown a profit or not.

Anyone changing USD to Baht at 45 to 1 and putting the cash in the bank here would have done just as well, or just as badly had the exchange rate subsequently gone the other way, as it has done in the past.

Situations and circumstances could be different for different people.

If the person sold and repatriated the money the exchange rate would seem relevant, as well as taking into account the rent paid during that period.

It may seem relevant but as I pointed out it would not actually be so and individual circumstances do not change this at all. The exchange transaction and what you subsequently do with the money are not related in any way. You would get exactly the same effect from the exchange rate fluctuations if you kept the cash under your bed, or used it to buy gold or even a girlie bar. The actual performance of the asset in local currency is another matter, of course.

Rent saved must be taken into account, as you rightly mention, but so must lost interest on the capital. If compounded this can add up quite fast. This is part of the actual performance of the asset.

[hml367]

I don't agree. Maybe just different perceptions.

[hml367]

I did take interest earned into account in the scenario I used.

[hml367]

Sorry so many posts... edit is not working in my app.

The rent paid during the the same period takes care of most of the interest.

[rayongchelsea]

Exchange rates have a huge impact on the ability to buy as funds are generally sent from abroad.

I bought at 45 baht to the dollar . I could not have afforded it at 30 as it would have seemed expensive at the time in dollar terms.

Regardless of whether I repatriate the funds or not I have an asset that is worth considerably more in both Thai baht and in dollar terms than when I purchased it.My decision was almost entirely based on the exchange rate, plus location.

I have always bought, but their is a very strong economic argument for renting, especially now.

In fact the more i understand about and read about the Thai market...I wonder why I bought..i was fortunate..right time, right exchange rate, right location..luck!! But isn't that generally the case.

[rayongchelsea]

There are lots of ways to store wealth and most are more liquid than real estate. For me buying would be a condo since I can't own land. Try to sell a condo in this market hahaha.

No way. Rent.

If you actually visit Thailand you will discover they are still building condos and selling condos a couple percent up from last year.

As a foreigner you are not selling new properties, and cannot arrange for the buyer to have a 100% home loan.

While new condo prices may be up, second-hand foreigner owned condos will not be.

Not true in my condo in Bangkok there is a lot of interest in second hand condos. Prices have risen, primarily because the condo next door is going at 140k per sq meter, maybe a one off who knows!

[hml367]

Exchange rates have a huge impact on the ability to buy as funds are generally sent from abroad.

I bought at 45 baht to the dollar . I could not have afforded it at 30 as it would have seemed expensive at the time in dollar terms.

Regardless of whether I repatriate the funds or not I have an asset that is worth considerably more in both Thai baht and in dollar terms than when I purchased it.My decision was almost entirely based on the exchange rate, plus location.

I have always bought, but their is a very strong economic argument for renting, especially now.

In fact the more i understand about and read about the Thai market...I wonder why I bought..i was fortunate..right time, right exchange rate, right location..luck!! But isn't that generally the case.

A situation and circumstance I was imagining in my scenario.

[historyprof]

There are lots of ways to store wealth and most are more liquid than real estate. For me buying would be a condo since I can't own land. Try to sell a condo in this market hahaha.

If you actually visit Thailand you will discover they are still building condos and selling condos a couple percent up from last year.

Bangkok Condominium Market Report Half Year 2013

New launches in Q2 2013 were down by 22% from the previous quarter, but the total of newly launched units in the first half 2013 was approximately 28,600, or around 12% higher than the first half of last year.

Do some reading before you shoot off your mouth based on the rumor you read on TV.

The average selling price for newly launched units .....

Maybe you should follow your own advice about research and mouth-shooting?

NeverSure seemed to be talking about resales, not new builds. Everyone knows that new builds as specifically mentioned in your quotes sell well. Thais like them, and agents love them because of the huge commissions. The discounts available on the (artificial) list price also make them look like a good buy to the unwary. Many are also bought by "flippers", misguided as they may be.

But reselling used condos is another story entirely. There are thousands of used condos for sale in Pattaya, and few takers.

Sorry I must be getting old. I didn't see where we were talking about resales. I quoted a number of factual reports about the condo market. Resales or new they are both selling. Pattaya maybe not as much as Bangkok, can't say, don't know. I do know there is a shortage of construction labor both skilled and unskilled all over Thailand. I rent in Thailand. I rent from my wife who owns the house. Works for me. I pay her less than I paid for my condo. Not too serious here. More like pocket change.

[mok199]

dont you just get tired of other peoples germs and dirt and not to mention the mattress....if you are ok with all that then renting is the best....i just finally said to myself,i deserve better,and i bought new...im lovin it...i dont care if i lose a bit when i sell,but im here for the long haul...now i cook all my meals spend more time inside and entertain sometimes....is a normal life...for me....

[xenophon]

If you rent and need to return home for 6+ months, what do you do with all your stuff while you are not there?

If you rent, are you able to easily upgrade appliances such as refrigerator, clothes washer, TV, etc. ?

I just ask because I am curious. It seems to me, if you owned, you would always have a place to keep your stuff. You could customize your place any way you would like. With renting it seems like you are locked into stuff that you may not want or need. I have no experience in renting a place. Does the owner let you make changes if you sign a long lease?

The same as you do if you have to leave your home country ... put your stuff in storage. There are some secure storage companies in T'land. Obviously, caveat emptor.

[historyprof]

Sorry I must be getting old. I didn't see where we were talking about resales. I quoted a number of factual reports about the condo market. Resales or new they are both selling. Pattaya maybe not as much as Bangkok, can't say, don't know. I do know there is a shortage of construction labor both skilled and unskilled all over Thailand. I rent in Thailand. I rent from my wife who owns the house. Works for me. I pay her less than I paid for my condo. Not too serious here. More like pocket change.

Not much of a marriage, if you need to pay her rent. One born every minute.

That's a rude thing to say, eh? My wife bought the home and pays the bank every month. I'm not a gigolo. Of course I help her pay the mortgage. She has written me a rental agreement so I can show the people at immgration for my yearly visa. Better get an adult to check your posts so you are not so insulting n the future.

[LawrenceChee]

dont you just get tired of other peoples germs and dirt and not to mention the mattress....if you are ok with all that then renting is the best....i just finally said to myself,i deserve better,and i bought new...im lovin it...i dont care if i lose a bit when i sell,but im here for the long haul...now i cook all my meals spend more time inside and entertain sometimes....is a normal life...for me....

Get a good cleaner to give the place a good scrub, buy new towels, pillows and sheets :-) and yes even a new mattress if it makes you happy :-) cost outlay still lesser than buying a house mate

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Sorry I must be getting old. I didn't see where we were talking about resales. I quoted a number of factual reports about the condo market. Resales or new they are both selling. Pattaya maybe not as much as Bangkok, can't say, don't know. I do know there is a shortage of construction labor both skilled and unskilled all over Thailand. I rent in Thailand. I rent from my wife who owns the house. Works for me. I pay her less than I paid for my condo. Not too serious here. More like pocket change.

Not much of a marriage, if you need to pay her rent. One born every minute.

That's a rude thing to say, eh? My wife bought the home and pays the bank every month. I'm not a gigolo. Of course I help her pay the mortgage. She has written me a rental agreement so I can show the people at immgration for my yearly visa. Better get an adult to check your posts so you are not so insulting n the future.

Your original post was incorrect.

You are not renting a house from your wife, you are buying a house with your wife.

Under Thai law the house is a joint marital asset (apart from your declaration that the initial deposit was made with her money).

[historyprof]

Sorry I must be getting old. I didn't see where we were talking about resales. I quoted a number of factual reports about the condo market. Resales or new they are both selling. Pattaya maybe not as much as Bangkok, can't say, don't know. I do know there is a shortage of construction labor both skilled and unskilled all over Thailand. I rent in Thailand. I rent from my wife who owns the house. Works for me. I pay her less than I paid for my condo. Not too serious here. More like pocket change.

Not much of a marriage, if you need to pay her rent. One born every minute.

That's a rude thing to say, eh? My wife bought the home and pays the bank every month. I'm not a gigolo. Of course I help her pay the mortgage. She has written me a rental agreement so I can show the people at immgration for my yearly visa. Better get an adult to check your posts so you are not so insulting n the future.

Your original post was incorrect.

You are not renting a house from your wife, you are buying a house with your wife.

Under Thai law the house is a joint marital asset (apart from your declaration that the initial deposit was made with her money).

Better not to discuss things about another man's marriage and keep your opinions to yourself. There are a number of different ways to get married in Thailand. My OP was correct but you assume too much about things you don't know much about. Oh well it is not my desire to educate you. You can consult a lawyer if you want or need the details.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Better not to discuss things about another man's marriage and keep your opinions to yourself. There are a number of different ways to get married in Thailand. My OP was correct but you assume too much about things you don't know much about. Oh well it is not my desire to educate you. You can consult a lawyer if you want or need the details.

Thai law is perfectly clear.

If you married her in the Amphur office, she is your wife. The house (currently being purchased by home loan) is a marital asset.

If you didn't marry her in an Amphur office, then she isn't your wife, and what you have isn't a marriage. So why would you post that she is?

Best not to post mis/information about your relationship on a public forum if you don't want it discussed.

Especially if you are participating in an activity so socially abnormal as renting a house from your wife.

Edited August 25, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[historyprof]

Better not to discuss things about another man's marriage and keep your opinions to yourself. There are a number of different ways to get married in Thailand. My OP was correct but you assume too much about things you don't know much about. Oh well it is not my desire to educate you. You can consult a lawyer if you want or need the details.

Thai law is perfectly clear.

If you married her in the Amphur office, she is your wife. The house (currently being purchased by home loan) is a marital asset.

If you didn't marry her in an Amphur office, then she isn't your wife, and what you have isn't a marriage. So why would you post that she is?

Best not to post mis/information about your relationship on a public forum if you don't want it discussed.

Especially if you are participating in an activity so socially abnormal as renting a house from your wife.

You are the judge of who is married or not? You talked to the 10 monks and the 500 people at the wedding? You talked to the village elders and my wife's mother? I live in Thailand. Everyone I know including the mayor of the town calls my wife, my wife. My wife gave me a rental contract that I present to the officials at immigration and they call my wife my wife. I know at least 1000 people who call my wife my wife. You may disagree but it's 1000 to one who think she is my wife. What percent of Thai people register marriages? Maybe you could take a Thai culture lesson. We are not two lawyers discussing a legal point here. I pay my wife rent instead of buying her a house and you called me a sucker and said I had an abnormal marriage. Ya right!

Edited August 25, 2013 by historyprof

[hml367]

So is this incorrect?

Foreigners married to a Thai national can't own land in Thailand and can't have an ownership interest in land as jointly owned marital or matrimonial property between husband and wife. The Land Department does allow a Thai national married to a foreigner to own land as a personal property after a joint statement with the foreign spouse that the money expended on the land is personal property of the Thai spouse. This means that the land (and in practice often land and house and in some cases condominium) is purchased as a personal property of the Thai spouse and therefore will not become a jointly owned and managed property between husband and wife (Sin Somros). The confirmation in the certify letter is based on the principle of section 1472 Civil and Commercial Code that if personal property has been exchanged for other property (in this case land) that property shall be a personal property. The foreign spouse has no ownership rights in such assets based on Thai family laws governing property between husband and wife. The Thai spouse will be the sole owner and manager of the land and as a personal asset it is not part of the division of assets when the marriages ends.

Edited August 25, 2013 by hml367

[mesquite]

As I mentioned elsewhere, yingluck did not register her marriage. If an unregistered marriage is good enough for her, it should be good enough for anybody.

Edited August 25, 2013 by mesquite

[Lancelot]

I prefer to rent- freedom to change locations

Free at last, free at last, thank God, I'm free at last!

[hml367]

Except the wife can't throw you out because there is a registered lease.

If the lessee makes the full 30 years, they have paid the equivalent of less than 3,000 THB per month.

Thai law doesn't allow contracts between a husband and wife.

If you have a lease from your wife, she can unilaterally cancel it at any time.

And is this incorrect?

A registered right of usufruct is not a contract that can be terminated by your wife. Usufruct is a real right and as a real property right governed by book IV PROPERTY in civil and commercial Code and not by book III CONTRACTS. This means that once the right of usufruct is registered by the land office it is guaranteed and your wife would need 1 your consent or 2 a court order to have it removed from the title deed. For example when you would divorce the usufruct could be terminated by a court as part of the division of assets.

After your marriage (under Thai Family Laws) all property of husband and wife is governed by the statutory system of 'property between husband and wife' (sections 1465 to 1493 - read: samuiforsale.com/.../... ). Any agreements between husband and wife made during the marriage affecting their assets (in conflict with the statutory system) could be set aside by the spouses themselves or a court (section 1469). This includes usufruct and superficies but it is difficult to void and deregister such rights.

Section 1469 'the right to void any agreement' also includes gifts between husband and wife made during the course of the marriage. If you gave the money for purchase of the land to your wife you could demand the return of the money expended in a divorce and if the usufruct is cancelled. Gift is also placed in book III CONTRACTS and described as 'a gift is a contract...'. Some evidence of the gift out of your personal property will be required.

In a divorce in Thailand the marital home is often divided 50/50 between husband and wife. The reason for this is section 1474 last sentence 'In case of doubt as to whether a property in a common property between husband and wife or not it shall be presumed to be jointly owned'.

This is more or less a standard division in a divorce, but if you can prove that the property is bought during the marriage with your personal assets the division could be different than a 50/50 division, even despite any declaration made at the land office at the time of purchase.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

So is this incorrect?

Foreigners married to a Thai national can't own land in Thailand and can't have an ownership interest in land as jointly owned marital or matrimonial property between husband and wife. The Land Department does allow a Thai national married to a foreigner to own land as a personal property after a joint statement with the foreign spouse that the money expended on the land is personal property of the Thai spouse. This means that the land (and in practice often land and house and in some cases condominium) is purchased as a personal property of the Thai spouse and therefore will not become a jointly owned and managed property between husband and wife (Sin Somros). The confirmation in the certify letter is based on the principle of section 1472 Civil and Commercial Code that if personal property has been exchanged for other property (in this case land) that property shall be a personal property. The foreign spouse has no ownership rights in such assets based on Thai family laws governing property between husband and wife. The Thai spouse will be the sole owner and manager of the land and as a personal asset it is not part of the division of assets when the marriages ends.

If the Thai spouse is buying a house using a home loan, the foreigner only declares the deposit sin somros at the land office (a declaration that many Thai judges will not agree is valid in Thai law as it is essentially a contract made between a husband and wife after marriage and therefore invalid). Clearly all home loan repayments must be considered marital property as it is acquired during the marriage and after the declaration.

Edited August 25, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[hml367]

If the Thai spouse was buying with a mortgage how could they make a lease? At the very lease I don't think the mortgage holder would allow it to be registered.

This is getting way off track.

I will ask you again, are you an attorney in Thai law? That would make it easier to accept your assertions.

As an aside, did you once post that you hold dual citizenship, Thai citizenship being one?

Edited August 25, 2013 by hml367