Thai-EU trade talks could kill cheap life-saving medicines

[NeverSure]

On this occasion I strongly advise Thailand to have nothing to do with the EU it will ruin you.

I was thinking much the same about dealings with the US.

Yes of course. Neither Thailand nor any other country should ever use a drug developed in the US. Nor should they use anything else developed in the US such as a computer, smart phone, cell phone, the internet...

They would also lose a lot of important medicines, and as I said, these medicines are expensive and risky to develop. Someone has to pay for it.

"In the United States, it takes an average of 12 years for an experimental drug to travel from the laboratory to your medicine cabinet. That is, if it makes it.

Only 5 in 5,000 drugs that enter preclinical testing progress to human testing. One of these 5 drugs that are tested in people is approved. The chance for a new drug to actually make it to market is thus only 1 in 5,000. Not very good odds

.

The process of drug approval is controlled in most countries by a governmental regulatory agency. In the U.S., the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) governs this process. The FDA requires the following sequence of events before approving a drug." LINK

The US should stop buying anything from Thailand until Thailand stops stealing intellectual property. The US should also cut Thailand off from the internet.

[historyprof]

On this occasion I strongly advise Thailand to have nothing to do with the EU it will ruin you.

I was thinking much the same about dealings with the US.

30 posts before an anti US post, not bad in a thread that has nothing to do with the US.

Edit, I didn't read the above post. Not your fault. After reading that stuff I kind of agree with you but would limit it to Neversure. The rest of the US does not feel that way, honest!

Edited September 3, 2013 by historyprof

[Bagwan]

Quote from OP - Even though the Thai-EU FTA will boost economic growth for both sides, Unquote

The very suggestion that Thailand could contribute to European economic growth has me in hysterics. How?????? Thailand was never colonised because it had nothing to offer a colonial power that that power did not already have an abundance of, and it's only virtue was to act as a buffer state between British and French interests. Nothing much has changed. Thailand remains as a 'tart' country and will remain so until it joins the 20th century, and then makes every effort to join the 21st, asap.

[historyprof]

Quote from OP - Even though the Thai-EU FTA will boost economic growth for both sides, Unquote

The very suggestion that Thailand could contribute to European economic growth has me in hysterics. How?????? Thailand was never colonised because it had nothing to offer a colonial power that that power did not already have an abundance of, and it's only virtue was to act as a buffer state between British and French interests. Nothing much has changed. Thailand remains as a 'tart' country and will remain so until it joins the 20th century, and then makes every effort to join the 21st, asap.

Calling Thailand a, "Tart country" has to be against some Thai Visa rule isn't it?

[SICHONSTEVE]

I wonder just exactly these life saving drugs are as there aren't many drugs that are life saving, I would descibe them as more likely to lead you to an early death rather than saving your life!!

[historyprof]

I wonder just exactly these life saving drugs are as there aren't many drugs that are life saving, I would descibe them as more likely to lead you to an early death rather than saving your life!!

I believe chemo therapy and AIDS drugs although they were not mentioned by name. Also all of the drugs that have patents expired recently would be under patent for another 10 years as I read the OP.

[SICHONSTEVE]

I wonder just exactly these life saving drugs are as there aren't many drugs that are life saving, I would descibe them as more likely to lead you to an early death rather than saving your life!!

I believe chemo therapy and AIDS drugs although they were not mentioned by name. Also all of the drugs that have patents expired recently would be under patent for another 10 years as I read the OP.

I can't say much about AIDS dugs but chemotherapy is a killer. High dosage Intravenous vitamin C is better (without the side effects of pumping highly toxic chemicals into your body)!!

[NeverSure]

I wonder just exactly these life saving drugs are as there aren't many drugs that are life saving, I would descibe them as more likely to lead you to an early death rather than saving your life!!

I believe chemo therapy and AIDS drugs although they were not mentioned by name. Also all of the drugs that have patents expired recently would be under patent for another 10 years as I read the OP.

There are many, many life saving drugs and they are very expensive to develop while the money to develop them is at great risk. As I posted above, only about 1 new drug in 5,000 is approved for use, and even then it can take as long as 12 years and gobs of money to get it approved.

Thailand is corrupt in every corner and can not join the world stage until it cleans up its act. Other countries should stop buying from Thailand until it stops stealing.

[historyprof]

I wonder just exactly these life saving drugs are as there aren't many drugs that are life saving, I would descibe them as more likely to lead you to an early death rather than saving your life!!

I believe chemo therapy and AIDS drugs although they were not mentioned by name. Also all of the drugs that have patents expired recently would be under patent for another 10 years as I read the OP.

There are many, many life saving drugs and they are very expensive to develop while the money to develop them is at great risk. As I posted above, only about 1 new drug in 5,000 is approved for use, and even then it can take as long as 12 years and gobs of money to get it approved.

Thailand is corrupt in every corner and can not join the world stage until it cleans up its act. Other countries should stop buying from Thailand until it stops stealing.

There has to be some rule on Thai Visa to prevent members calling for an international boycott of Thai products?

[yougivemebaby]

Don't people understand?

This is not about the treatment and health of the population in general.

It is between the government, the EU and the drug companies profits.

It is ALL about money and people don't come into the equation.

That is what i thought and that is why i said they are using false arguments.

money talks thats the bottom line

Its amazing how oblivious or in denial people are to these things. It's not hard to read between the lines. There are no lines here. They make no beneficial argument as to why they would keep the patents for another 10 years. Basically Hi we're going to screw you for another 10 years.

Government is just an intimidating word for big business. Sometimes I just want to shake some people and make them wake up

[NeverSure]

money talks thats the bottom line

Its amazing how oblivious or in denial people are to these things. It's not hard to read between the lines. There are no lines here. They make no beneficial argument as to why they would keep the patents for another 10 years. Basically Hi we're going to screw you for another 10 years.

Government is just an intimidating word for big business. Sometimes I just want to shake some people and make them wake up

I've shown enough about the risks and the long time it takes to bring a new drug to market. In the past years they've actually figured out how to save the lives of most aids sufferers. Who would develop that without a profit motive.

Even a poor guy goes to work every day for a profit motive.

I have an idea for you. If you think that drug companies make too much money, then the smartest thing you can do is to buy some stock in them. A drug company is comprised of milliions of individual stockholders pooling their capital as in capitalism.

You can buy as few or as many shares as you want, and then you too can be a greedy capitalist. After you've invested your money, you'll no longer think it's OK of whole nations such as Thailand to steal the intellectual property that you paid for, and that you hope to make a profit on.

In the meantime Thailand will get no respect on the world stage if it remains corrupt and a thief of other people's inventions.

[yougivemebaby]

money talks thats the bottom line

Its amazing how oblivious or in denial people are to these things. It's not hard to read between the lines. There are no lines here. They make no beneficial argument as to why they would keep the patents for another 10 years. Basically Hi we're going to screw you for another 10 years.

Government is just an intimidating word for big business. Sometimes I just want to shake some people and make them wake up

I've shown enough about the risks and the long time it takes to bring a new drug to market. In the past years they've actually figured out how to save the lives of most aids sufferers. Who would develop that without a profit motive.

Even a poor guy goes to work every day for a profit motive.

I have an idea for you. If you think that drug companies make too much money, then the smartest thing you can do is to buy some stock in them. A drug company is comprised of milliions of individual stockholders pooling their capital as in capitalism.

You can buy as few or as many shares as you want, and then you too can be a greedy capitalist. After you've invested your money, you'll no longer think it's OK of whole nations such as Thailand to steal the intellectual property that you paid for, and that you hope to make a profit on.

In the meantime Thailand will get no respect on the world stage if it remains corrupt and a thief of other people's inventions.

If one person's life is saved, if someone doesn't need to suffer anymore. Who cares about the drug companies and their profit? That's what the US is for. I SELL medicine. I know how inflated the prices are in the US. The same drugs sold in the EU are 5X less in cost. ! The same BRAND manufactured by the SAME company. No need to lecture me on the costs of running a pharmaceutical company. I've been in the business for 12 years. There is a HUGE risk in developing new drugs but once they do the do make massive profits. That is the gamble they are willing to take. Why else would they always be developing new drugs?

If you're concerned about Thailand making copies. Focus on the DVD rip offs and copies of jeans. Not something that could save peoples lives . Shove your capitalism where the sun dont shine. You believing it's hard for a drug company to make a profit is their marketing dollars hard at work . Thailand is still developing. What and idiotic, baseless. and pathetic statement. LOL You must buy everything you see advertised on TV too.

Edited September 3, 2013 by yougivemebaby

[Thai at Heart]

Not that I think its fair to extend the patents but the guy is talking BS.. for now every Thai can get free healthcare so the only one who would pay more is the government. It is not as if the people have to pay for it or else die. Its the government, this is false sentiment.

I believe many life saving drugs are not covered under the Thai free health care plan to include chemo therapy for cancer and many others. I'm sure the lady who moderates the health forum would know but as far as I know your post is a false statement. When you are proved not correct you should come back and write that you are so anti government that you did not take the time to investigate the facts.

I think you are correct about the limited number of drugs included in Thai health care. The chemo, in particular, is 10,000 baht per treatment, a sum completely out of the realm of possibility for most Thais. I do think you are wrong about robblok, however. His is usually a voice of reason and experience on this board, although, like many of us, he sometimes gets frustrated with government folly and inefficiency--as during the great flood. The bigger issue, nonetheless, is that this free trade agreement would hurt most people's medical care in this country.

So it means millionaires and those on the best government insurance have a higher cost. A little disingenuous.

Absolute nonsense. Good health insurance for a Thai may be had for around 1500 baht a month. This is the difference between a government hospital and a first class private hospital. I know the difference because I have spent two weeks in a private room and a ward in each. The government hospital around 50,000 Baht and the private 200,000. There is a big difference and my wife has private insurance so she is treated at the same private hospital as I am and not stored in a bed next to the lift or forced to wait a week or two for a CT scan. So get off your high horse and look for some factual information. Health insurance in Thailand is not only for the rich it is very affordable for Thai people.

How much do you presume the average wage of a Thai person is? And do you know anything about the limitations on value for medication and exclusions. I paid for my and my families private insurance so I know that what it costs to properly insure a family.

I would wager that private health insurance is taken up by less than 5% of the population. My father in law was a government employee and was provided 18k per months worth of Alzheimer's treatment. Go look at the cancer coverage on your bupa plan. A one time payment. Whooopee. Great for that ongoing medication.

Somchai on the factory floor will not be able to afford insurance to get access to this.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[NeverSure]

Its amazing how oblivious or in denial people are to these things. It's not hard to read between the lines. There are no lines here. They make no beneficial argument as to why they would keep the patents for another 10 years. Basically Hi we're going to screw you for another 10 years.

Government is just an intimidating word for big business. Sometimes I just want to shake some people and make them wake up

I've shown enough about the risks and the long time it takes to bring a new drug to market. In the past years they've actually figured out how to save the lives of most aids sufferers. Who would develop that without a profit motive.

Even a poor guy goes to work every day for a profit motive.

I have an idea for you. If you think that drug companies make too much money, then the smartest thing you can do is to buy some stock in them. A drug company is comprised of milliions of individual stockholders pooling their capital as in capitalism.

You can buy as few or as many shares as you want, and then you too can be a greedy capitalist. After you've invested your money, you'll no longer think it's OK of whole nations such as Thailand to steal the intellectual property that you paid for, and that you hope to make a profit on.

In the meantime Thailand will get no respect on the world stage if it remains corrupt and a thief of other people's inventions.

If one person's life is saved, if someone doesn't need to suffer anymore. Who cares about the drug companies and their profit? That's what the US is for. I SELL medicine. I know how inflated the prices are in the US. The same drugs sold in the EU are 5X less in cost. ! The same BRAND manufactured by the SAME company. No need to lecture me on the costs of running a pharmaceutical company. I've been in the business for 12 years. There is a HUGE risk in developing new drugs but once they do the do make massive profits. That is the gamble they are willing to take. Why else would they always be developing new drugs?

If you're concerned about Thailand making copies. Focus on the DVD rip offs and copies of jeans. Not something that could save peoples lives . Shove your capitalism where the sun dont shine. You believing it's hard for a drug company to make a profit is their marketing dollars hard at work . Thailand is still developing. What and idiotic, baseless. and pathetic statement. LOL You must buy everything you see advertised on TV too.

What you're missing when you tell me to "shove your capitalism where the sun don't shine" is that without the risked capital and profit motive, the drug wouldn't be there in the first place.

You pointed out that countries can made deals with drug countries. Canada has. That's a lot of buying power. Thailand needs to make deals with drug companies for patented drugs and stop being corrupt. Yes, they need to stop the ripping off of DVD's and even using pirated copies of Windows in government offices. They can't be a real player in international trade when they do that.

Also, most drugs that are prescribed today are no longer patented and generics are already avialable. Yes, some of the best drugs still being used are legally generic. So we're just down to the patents.

Stealing is stealing and you can't come up with enough rationalizing to impress me.

[manarak]

Its amazing how oblivious or in denial people are to these things. It's not hard to read between the lines. There are no lines here. They make no beneficial argument as to why they would keep the patents for another 10 years. Basically Hi we're going to screw you for another 10 years.

Government is just an intimidating word for big business. Sometimes I just want to shake some people and make them wake up

I've shown enough about the risks and the long time it takes to bring a new drug to market. In the past years they've actually figured out how to save the lives of most aids sufferers. Who would develop that without a profit motive.

Even a poor guy goes to work every day for a profit motive.

I have an idea for you. If you think that drug companies make too much money, then the smartest thing you can do is to buy some stock in them. A drug company is comprised of milliions of individual stockholders pooling their capital as in capitalism.

You can buy as few or as many shares as you want, and then you too can be a greedy capitalist. After you've invested your money, you'll no longer think it's OK of whole nations such as Thailand to steal the intellectual property that you paid for, and that you hope to make a profit on.

In the meantime Thailand will get no respect on the world stage if it remains corrupt and a thief of other people's inventions.

If one person's life is saved, if someone doesn't need to suffer anymore. Who cares about the drug companies and their profit? That's what the US is for. I SELL medicine. I know how inflated the prices are in the US. The same drugs sold in the EU are 5X less in cost. ! The same BRAND manufactured by the SAME company. No need to lecture me on the costs of running a pharmaceutical company. I've been in the business for 12 years. There is a HUGE risk in developing new drugs but once they do the do make massive profits. That is the gamble they are willing to take. Why else would they always be developing new drugs?

If you're concerned about Thailand making copies. Focus on the DVD rip offs and copies of jeans. Not something that could save peoples lives . Shove your capitalism where the sun dont shine. You believing it's hard for a drug company to make a profit is their marketing dollars hard at work . Thailand is still developing. What and idiotic, baseless. and pathetic statement. LOL You must buy everything you see advertised on TV too.

What you're missing when you tell me to "shove your capitalism where the sun don't shine" is that without the risked capital and profit motive, the drug wouldn't be there in the first place.

You pointed out that countries can made deals with drug countries. Canada has. That's a lot of buying power. Thailand needs to make deals with drug companies for patented drugs and stop being corrupt. Yes, they need to stop the ripping off of DVD's and even using pirated copies of Windows in government offices. They can't be a real player in international trade when they do that.

Also, most drugs that are prescribed today are no longer patented and generics are already avialable. Yes, some of the best drugs still being used are legally generic. So we're just down to the patents.

Stealing is stealing and you can't come up with enough rationalizing to impress me.

The problem with FTA between old industrialized countries and tigers or developing countries is that the agreements are asymetrical.

With all the licensing and other "soft barriers" in place in Europe, Thai pharmaceutical industries will not be able to compete, and they won't be able either for most of the other things, yet the agreements will often not allow developing countries to freely sell products where they can compete (through low labor costs), usually crops, food, textiles, etc. because Europe & Co. have to protect their local Farmers, Industry, etc. (because the trade unionists say the competition from low wage countries is unfair).

"regulated free trade" is an oxymoron.

Edited September 3, 2013 by manarak

[Thai at Heart]

Its amazing how oblivious or in denial people are to these things. It's not hard to read between the lines. There are no lines here. They make no beneficial argument as to why they would keep the patents for another 10 years. Basically Hi we're going to screw you for another 10 years.

Government is just an intimidating word for big business. Sometimes I just want to shake some people and make them wake up

I've shown enough about the risks and the long time it takes to bring a new drug to market. In the past years they've actually figured out how to save the lives of most aids sufferers. Who would develop that without a profit motive.

Even a poor guy goes to work every day for a profit motive.

I have an idea for you. If you think that drug companies make too much money, then the smartest thing you can do is to buy some stock in them. A drug company is comprised of milliions of individual stockholders pooling their capital as in capitalism.

You can buy as few or as many shares as you want, and then you too can be a greedy capitalist. After you've invested your money, you'll no longer think it's OK of whole nations such as Thailand to steal the intellectual property that you paid for, and that you hope to make a profit on.

In the meantime Thailand will get no respect on the world stage if it remains corrupt and a thief of other people's inventions.

If one person's life is saved, if someone doesn't need to suffer anymore. Who cares about the drug companies and their profit? That's what the US is for. I SELL medicine. I know how inflated the prices are in the US. The same drugs sold in the EU are 5X less in cost. ! The same BRAND manufactured by the SAME company. No need to lecture me on the costs of running a pharmaceutical company. I've been in the business for 12 years. There is a HUGE risk in developing new drugs but once they do the do make massive profits. That is the gamble they are willing to take. Why else would they always be developing new drugs?

If you're concerned about Thailand making copies. Focus on the DVD rip offs and copies of jeans. Not something that could save peoples lives . Shove your capitalism where the sun dont shine. You believing it's hard for a drug company to make a profit is their marketing dollars hard at work . Thailand is still developing. What and idiotic, baseless. and pathetic statement. LOL You must buy everything you see advertised on TV too.

What you're missing when you tell me to "shove your capitalism where the sun don't shine" is that without the risked capital and profit motive, the drug wouldn't be there in the first place.

You pointed out that countries can made deals with drug countries. Canada has. That's a lot of buying power. Thailand needs to make deals with drug companies for patented drugs and stop being corrupt. Yes, they need to stop the ripping off of DVD's and even using pirated copies of Windows in government offices. They can't be a real player in international trade when they do that.

Also, most drugs that are prescribed today are no longer patented and generics are already avialable. Yes, some of the best drugs still being used are legally generic. So we're just down to the patents.

Stealing is stealing and you can't come up with enough rationalizing to impress me.

The problem with FTA between old industrialized countries and tigers or developing countries is that the agreements are asymetrical.

With all the licensing and other "soft barriers" in place in Europe, Thai pharmaceutical industries will not be able to compete, and they won't be able either for most of the other things, yet the agreements will often not allow developing countries to freely sell products where they can compete (through low labor costs), usually crops, food, textiles, etc. because Europe & Co. have to protect their local Farmers, Industry, etc. (because the trade unionists say the competition from low wage countries is unfair).

"regulated free trade" is an oxymoron.

Thailand doesn't develop medicines. It manufactures medicines that have gone beyond their patents. Generics.

India exports tons of them. They can't even get the quality of their rice in order, you think the west trusts them to check their generic drugs?

[historyprof]

So it means millionaires and those on the best government insurance have a higher cost. A little disingenuous.

How much do you presume the average wage of a Thai person is? And do you know anything about the limitations on value for medication and exclusions. I paid for my and my families private insurance so I know that what it costs to properly insure a family.

I would wager that private health insurance is taken up by less than 5% of the population. My father in law was a government employee and was provided 18k per months worth of Alzheimer's treatment. Go look at the cancer coverage on your bupa plan. A one time payment. Whooopee. Great for that ongoing medication.

Somchai on the factory floor will not be able to afford insurance to get access to this.

Please learn how to post quotes. It is almost impossible to understand what you write as it is.

Not the average but many Thai people can afford health insurance at 1500 baht a month. Somchai on the factory floor of Ford or any of the large Thai corporations already has health insurance in addition to the old 30 baht scheme as do all the government teachers....... Should I go on? Your statement, " millionaires and those on the best government insurance." is false.

[robblok]

Robblok says, "guy is talking BS.. for now every Thai can get free healthcare so the only one who would pay more is the government. It is not as if the people have to pay for it or else die. Its the government, this is false sentiment."

I wrote, "Drugs, treatments, surgeries, and care are fully covered except for drugs that don't come under the 'S List' ("important drugs list"). Newer drugs, or drugs currently being researched, are not free. (It has been my experience this includes life saving chemo therapy drugs)

The OP says, "If we accept these proposals, we would be committing suicide, as we would no longer be able to access cheap medicines." "*Nimitr, believed the Thai negotiators would stick to their standing point of not accepting the EU proposal, which would destroy ... access to life-saving drugs for tens of thousands."

Nimitr Tian-udom is director of the Aids Access Foundation.

In my limited post Nimitr and I agree and Robblok says we are wrong. So who do you believe?

Logic isnt your strong suit.

They want to up the patent time from 20 to 30 years...

Newer drugs are younger as 20 years and already protected.. so for the newer drugs it would not change a thing.

False arguments on your side.

As i said before I am against this raise but use good arguments.

I wish you could try to disprove what i just said how new drugs are affected by this patent thing (older drugs will be)

[robblok]

I wonder just exactly these life saving drugs are as there aren't many drugs that are life saving, I would descibe them as more likely to lead you to an early death rather than saving your life!!

I believe chemo therapy and AIDS drugs although they were not mentioned by name. Also all of the drugs that have patents expired recently would be under patent for another 10 years as I read the OP.

Those are not NEW drugs that you keep raving about.. these are OLD drugs. You were raving about things that were new and how those would not be available. Your living in the past as your name suggests.

[historyprof]

Also, most drugs that are prescribed today are no longer patented and generics are already avialable. Yes, some of the best drugs still being used are legally generic. So we're just down to the patents.

When was it 1995 that the drug companies in the US wanted some more money so the changed the patents from 18 to 20 years, billions more profit. Now, if you read the OP, they want to change it from 20 to 30 years. Come read the OP and get with the program, enough Thai bashing, look at the OP and tell me why you think the patents should be raised another 10 years? Swiss drug companies going broke?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Robblok says, "guy is talking BS.. for now every Thai can get free healthcare so the only one who would pay more is the government. It is not as if the people have to pay for it or else die. Its the government, this is false sentiment."

I wrote, "Drugs, treatments, surgeries, and care are fully covered except for drugs that don't come under the 'S List' ("important drugs list"). Newer drugs, or drugs currently being researched, are not free. (It has been my experience this includes life saving chemo therapy drugs)

The OP says, "If we accept these proposals, we would be committing suicide, as we would no longer be able to access cheap medicines." "*Nimitr, believed the Thai negotiators would stick to their standing point of not accepting the EU proposal, which would destroy ... access to life-saving drugs for tens of thousands."

Nimitr Tian-udom is director of the Aids Access Foundation.

In my limited post Nimitr and I agree and Robblok says we are wrong. So who do you believe?

That's my experience also... that being.... not all drugs are covered under the Thai low cost insurance plan.

A lot of the more expensive, imported drugs are NOT covered, meaning Thai patients would have to pay for those separately.... at what price structure, I'm not sure... But certainly not as part of the 30 baht per visit plan.

And, regardless of that, changes in the drugs price structure certainly will impact a lot of expats here who often pay for medicines out of their own pocket, either because they're not insured or they can't get or afford insurance.