Thailand education: Low ranking for quality despite high spending

[Fookhaht]

a recent study shows that poverty affects judgment and learning

Being poor not only depletes your bank account, but it also diminishes how you think, reason and remember, says an intriguing new study by a UBC professor.

People living in poverty are often blamed for not improving their lives, but the new research suggests that the reality of being poor uses so much mental energy there is little brain power leftover to make good, life-changing decisions

Absolute rubbish, IMO. One could say, at the same time, that a poor background helps motivate bright students to rise above their circumstances. I personally grew up in a lower-middle-class family, and our circumstances gave me exactly that motivation to excel scholastically. I realized, as many, many Asian students/families do, that education is the logical open door to better one's lot in life.

Now, I have been teaching students from impoverished backgrounds for over 15 years (In the USA--dirt-poor immigrants, and in Thailand, from poor agrarian backgrounds). The ratio of performance from underachievers-to-excellence is exactly the same as a standard middle-class group of students (which I also taught for 5 years). Some of my best achievers have come from severely disadvantaged backgrounds.

Granted, my response is from the direct observation of one teacher, and I don't know the data from the UBC (University of British Columbia?) professor. It would be interesting to see what the population of his/her study is. Personally, it seems highly suspect of having a hidden agenda.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Fookhaht

[Fookhaht]

I have worked for logistic companies, of which there are thousands in Thailand, teaching employees the basics of business English. I can do in 90 days what the Thai education system failed to do in 12 years.

This is not an exaggeration.

Solid principles of pedagogy will always spectacularly trump the ineffective rote learning and the rigidly hierarchical non-interactive dynamics of the normal Thai government school classroom.

Kudos to the poster, and keep up the good work (for which he is certainly getting paid much better than the average farang in a Thai government school!)

[recom273]

Yes, new teachers may start at 8,500B a month, some do their first year for free, and then have to buy themselves into starting positions, but after that its a sure bet in future years. They soon earn in excess of 20K+ as previously posted.

By the time they retire they will be earning 40-50K-60K+ with a nice government pension for the rest of their days at a much lower age than western countries. Its a gravy train, pure and simple.

There are plenty of ways the youth of Thailand are let down by the system, but one thing it's not is by underpayed teaching staff.

[KireB]

When classes are being cancelled so that students can learn how to receive achievement awards, and when classes are cancelled for all things considered being part of 'Thainess', and when grades are manipulated and do not reflect students learning, I think that the dear people at the Education Ministry will have to accept their international position of rock bottom.

[Fookhaht]

When classes are being cancelled so that students can learn how to receive achievement awards, and when classes are cancelled for all things considered being part of 'Thainess', and when grades are manipulated and do not reflect students learning, I think that the dear people at the Education Ministry will have to accept their international position of rock bottom.

Add to that, the impossibility of failing a student.

More than once, I've failed students for not even showing up in class all semester long. Magically, a passing grade shows up on their record, and they move on. Normally, these students are from well-to-do backgrounds. Smell the onions?

[drdoom6996]

Hey, they gave some of the kids tablets and they found the porn. And you don't understand.

[historyprof]

I have worked for logistic companies, of which there are thousands in Thailand, teaching employees the basics of business English. I can do in 90 days what the Thai education system failed to do in 12 years.

This is not an exaggeration.

Solid principles of pedagogy will always spectacularly trump the ineffective rote learning and the rigidly hierarchical non-interactive dynamics of the normal Thai government school classroom.

Kudos to the poster, and keep up the good work (for which he is certainly getting paid much better than the average farang in a Thai government school!)

I don't make too much. Not as much as a Pattaya BG per hour but close. My students also get paid. I hold thier timecards and sign them at the end of class.

[Fookhaht]

I have worked for logistic companies, of which there are thousands in Thailand, teaching employees the basics of business English. I can do in 90 days what the Thai education system failed to do in 12 years.

This is not an exaggeration.

Solid principles of pedagogy will always spectacularly trump the ineffective rote learning and the rigidly hierarchical non-interactive dynamics of the normal Thai government school classroom.

Kudos to the poster, and keep up the good work (for which he is certainly getting paid much better than the average farang in a Thai government school!)

.....My students also get paid. I hold thier timecards and sign them at the end of class.

Now that even out-leverages having the power of giving grades!

[tingtongteesood]

Part of the problem is they learn 'Thainess' instead of useful things, they can tell you the names of every piece of architecture in the wat but have no idea what a church is, they can chant Buddhist mantras that are only ever used at funerals verbatim but have never read a Shakespear play etc etc. Everything nthey learn is how to be a Thai sheep, one of the flock. Forget the nonsense and stick to reading, writing, arithmatic, languages and science wiuth maybe a little world history instead of all Thai history and some general geography instead of teaching Thailand is the centre of the universe. Forget the rest...I know you can argue the opposite, I learnt nothing about Thailand at school, granted, but I did learn to read, write, count, some decent history, how the world works and to think for my damn self. Much more useful than defunct architectural terms and seldom used mantras...

[tingtongteesood]

Oh and let's add that they should really study and actually get a passing grade in their tests. It makes me mad how nobody is ever allowed to fail at school here, sets a bad example for the rest of their lives...

[johnnie20110]

Yes, new teachers may start at 8,500B a month, some do their first year for free, and then have to buy themselves into starting positions, but after that its a sure bet in future years. They soon earn in excess of 20K+ as previously posted.

As previously posted, the caveat being they have worked 15 years (which is a bit long for "soon") and have a Masters degree.

By the time they retire they will be earning 40-50K-60K+ with a nice government pension for the rest of their days at a much lower age than western countries. Its a gravy train, pure and simple.

Nonsense. The top principal made 32K a month and retired last year with a 9K a month pension, after 35 years service.

Yeah, she's living the high life.

But please let us know where Thai public school teachers are making 60K a month.

There will be others, numbering in tens of thousands, desperately wanting to relocate there.

You could start by really helping out a fellow poster and his significant other:

I can assure you my girlfriend would be over the moon with ฿20,000 p/m.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/665764-thailand-education-low-ranking-for-quality-despite-high-spending/page-3#entry6793006

Edited September 5, 2013 by johnnie20110

[hellodolly]

I am sure the teachers are well looked after in terms of salary & benefits as they are a large voting block after all. Not to mention the extra money teachers make by providing extra tuition which is required due to the inadequate teaching methods so it would be a conflict of interest for them to do a good job. Then there is the oft repeated opinion that the rich & powerful do not want a well educated populace capable of rational & independent thinking but this line of thought, if true, is completely erroneous as a well educated workforce can generate much more income for the country.

the politicians are not interested in generating more income for the country. They are interested in Generating more income for their own bank accounts.

They believe in the principal of steal it today don't wait 20 years.

I liked the part where they were going to judge the teachers on their pupils performances. I can see now a massive improvement join the grades the students will receive. It means nothing to the teacher what there performance is he/she are going to pass them any how.

[nong38]

I am thankful that I dont have any kids to put through this mill, its a big waste of time, really, they are "released" into the community at 21 ( if they are lucky?) with a head full of useless imformation to help them through life, the people who oversee this "process" it hard to call it an education system should be ashamed, they have been well paid to oversee the future of Thailand and they have let the country and the young down. They do have, I expect, a nice house or 2, a nice car or 2 and bit stashed away for a rainy day, unlike their protege's. Depends how you measure success.

[backtonormal]

The report in the nation is factually wrong..Ten ASEAN nations did not take part in the survey....only 8 did...So Thailand is the worst...

The other seven countries were Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei Darussalam, the Philippines, Indonesia, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Two other Asean members _ Myanmar and Laos _ were not included in the survey.

Now that is not to say that Myanmar and Laos are not ahead or close to overtaking Thailand. Encompass all the problems into Thainess (corruption, rote learning etc etc). Every Teacher in my EP program gets more than any Farang Teacher in the program. And they are rostered for 7 lessons per week which is greatly reduced because of extra curricular activities like temple visits, presentations, representations, ASEAN events etc. Thai Education is not in the toilet it has been flushed away already. FUBAR

[gosompoi]

It is so broken it can not be fixed, it needs to be replaced!

Edited September 5, 2013 by gosompoi

[kingstonkid]

I he a couple of suggestions to improve the system.

1. parents need to give a sh about what their kids are doing.

2. Scrpa this stupid law that says a kid can not fail.

As it is right now school is a party for the kids as they know that know matter how bad they are they will pass. They do not listen to teachers and when asked for feedback just look at Thai and other teachers like they have 3 eyes.

Set standards that cannot e bought for instance johnny needs to be able to read at x level before he can go to the next one. I he ids in Mat 4 that can barely write their name in English let alone read a workbook.

new books are not going to help if they cannot read.

[Johpa]

According to UNESCO (2012), Thailand’s literacy rate is actually quite high. Approximately 95 percent of all Thais over the age of 15 are classified as literate. That’s why it’s unusual to see a Thai, male or female, that cannot read or write the Thai language.

Literacy has been relatively high for many years. But literacy in Thai, although great for myself when I am in the country, is not going to get Thais very far in a global world. They need to become literate in English or Chinese. They rank near the bottom of ASEAN countries in English proficiency. Thai education suffers from a host of problems that form a nexus in the schools: mediocre teacher training, endemic corruption, a ruling Sino-Thai elite that prefers not to provide the poor with opportunity to compete with their own pathetic progeny, etc. There are some great teachers in the Thai school system, but as in the USA, they are few and far between.

Anywas, just another situation where the only thing left to say is "Chaiyo!".

[Bagwan]

"Over the past four or five years, teams from other ASEAN countries have come to Thailand to look at how the education sector can be improved, and they've managed to deliver results. Yet Thailand is unable to solve its educational problems," he lamented.

Teams from other ASEAN countries come to Thailand to see what NOT to do.

[Noistar]

The minister: "So when the quality of education in Thailand is ranked even lower than a country that spends less in terms of its GDP, it is possible that the education is actually poor," he suggested.

The academic: "Yet Thailand is unable to solve its educational problems," he lamented.

Me: If you wanted to improve education in Thailand, you would. If you wanted to stop the waste and corruption, you would. If you really cared about about the future of the people and not lining your own pockets or engaging in whining generalizations, you would do something about the dreadful state of education in Thailand.

But here's the deal. You don't care. Simple.

Where there's a will there's a way

[historyprof]

Thailand has a much better health care system than Laos or Burma or Vietnam and the same can be said for roads, and the rest of the infrastructure. So is the medical and engineering education OK but nothing else is?

[rametindallas]

Every farang who has experienced Thai teaching methods first hand realizes that, no matter how much money they spend, as long as students are lectured to and not taught how to think and reason for themselves, the education will not happen. Unfortunately, this suits the politicians just fine as a thinking population might question their wisdom in governance.

"The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires." William Arthur Ward. Thailand is in great need of teachers who inspire their students to be inquisitive and to study and become lifelong learners.

That's just silly. The basics are rote memory. Thai kids can't read Thai and can't write Thai and don't have basic arithmetic skills. You are talking college. I'm talking grade school. They don't need any more brain stress. Start with the basics.

What is just silly? My whole post? Is teaching young people how to reason and learn for themselves silly? If you wait until college to teach this, you've waited too long and left the vast majority behind. Already 50% who start school do not finish the 12th grade.

"Teach the Thai language and basic arithmetic skills and then send them out to make a living." In twelve years this is all you expect the system to teach? What kind of job will they qualify for with "Thai language and basic arithmetic skills"? It seems to me you just want the school system to train laborers and not thinkers.

For the standard of living for ALL Thais to go up, companies requiring more than just 'labor' will need to do business here. That will not happen until the education level improves.

[paulmw]

Obec secretary-general Chinnapat Bhumirat said yesterday that in relation to its gross domestic product, Thailand spent a large amount on education, especially on teachers' salaries.

Thailand spends a lot of money on education, but its pure BS to attribute that to the $250 a month salary many teachers are paid.

The money is squandered through corruption on bogus schemes and corrupt practices by those in power. Most of the money is long gone before it ever reaches the school.

Deputy Education Minister Sermsak Pongpanit said his ministry would not ignore the ranking.

Sure Sermsak will ignore it.

As one of those in power, he directly benefits from the corruption within the ministry with the biggest budget.

I think your 250$ wage is a bit undervalued.

Try 33,000 baht + for a qualified 15 year service teacher, was married to 1 and her 2 million baht debt.

[rametindallas]

Every farang who has experienced Thai teaching methods first hand realizes that, no matter how much money they spend, as long as students are lectured to and not taught how to think and reason for themselves, the education will not happen. Unfortunately, this suits the politicians just fine as a thinking population might question their wisdom in governance.

"The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires." William Arthur Ward. Thailand is in great need of teachers who inspire their students to be inquisitive and to study and become lifelong learners.

"You give me to think too much." -- One of My Thai Ex-GFs.

After a couple of years of my Thai GF complaining that I think too much, I now restrict our conversations to the superficial. She loves me so much more this way. Fortunately I have Thai friends educated in the US who appreciate an in depth conversation as an outlet for active mind.

[kaorop]

Nonsense. The top principal made 32K a month and retired last year with a 9K a month pension, after 35 years service.

Yeah, she's living the high life.

can you tell everyone how you know this is an exact figure?

seen a bank statement?

i know a head of department who was braggin he was paying 70k a month mortgage on 2 condos

yes maybe he was lying but i bet its more accurate than your figure.

i also know a senior teacher with excellent english who works in a crap classroom in a tech school

and has done so for many many years, owns 4 properties, ask yourself why does she stay in such a

lowly position and how did she buy so much property on what you would assess as less than 32k?

you're simply counting out the corruption gravy train as they move into senior positions

i wont bother with the patronising emoticon

[paulmw]

Yes, new teachers may start at 8,500B a month, some do their first year for free, and then have to buy themselves into starting positions, but after that its a sure bet in future years. They soon earn in excess of 20K+ as previously posted.

As previously posted, the caveat being they have worked 15 years (which is a bit long for "soon") and have a Masters degree.

By the time they retire they will be earning 40-50K-60K+ with a nice government pension for the rest of their days at a much lower age than western countries. Its a gravy train, pure and simple.

Nonsense. The top principal made 32K a month and retired last year with a 9K a month pension, after 35 years service.

Yeah, she's living the high life.

But please let us know where Thai public school teachers are making 60K a month.

There will be others, numbering in tens of thousands, desperately wanting to relocate there.

You could start by really helping out a fellow poster and his significant other:

I can assure you my girlfriend would be over the moon with ฿20,000 p/m.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/665764-thailand-education-low-ranking-for-quality-despite-high-spending/page-3#entry6793006

Tell her to become a government teacher, my ex 32 K baht + if she kisses the Directors a**se enough she will get 2 X 2% a year increase.

Why it seems poor old Thai teachers don’t take home so much is the loans they have to pay off, my ex 32 K dropped to 17K after loans, some I know only take home 5 K.

Ask you G/F how much she earns before loans are taken out!!

Most Thai teachers who are long term teachers usually finish on 40K + their retirement is usually ½ their final years salary.

Edited September 5, 2013 by paulmw

[thatswhatuthought]

They need to evaluate the administrators and the private schools. MOE has too take a lot of the blame. They don't inspect schools that pay. Hard to blame teachers when they were taught the same way. If they can't even learn to read and write their own language, how are they gonna learn English or any other language for that matter. Getting corruption out of the education system might be a good start. Not gonna happen in the near future.

[lee b]

I wonder where our "donations" to schools end up then . . . . .

In someones sky rocket

[thatswhatuthought]

HAHA. Just read a bunch of ...... posts about teachers salaries . A lot of private school teachers start at 9K a month. Small increase each year. Then years down the line the decrease their salary. This happens at one of the biggest private school chains in Thailand. Well known by many Thais for being very corrupt, but the parents don't care as long as their "students" graduate. Then again in Thailand you don't fail. Not even at 50%. And if you score below 50% you still pass. 15K minimum pay for a starting qualified teacher was a JOKE.

[Bkungbank]

Start points system where the lowest points teachers been sacked from job, then they will start to work hard for the students.

As we known that government jobs very secure without being lay off with some pressure I am sure they will not wasted our taxes money.

[Noistar]

Start points system where the lowest points teachers been sacked from job, then they will start to work hard for the students.

As we known that government jobs very secure without being lay off with some pressure I am sure they will not wasted our taxes money.

Who determines these 'lowest points' teachers?

Thailand is not geared-up to acknowledging things because they are true.

If 90% of teachers are deemed to be effective, it's a fair bet that the sacked teachers will not be the 10%. It's the usual face fits, so I think the intention is right but doesn't apply to Thailand.

TIT