Why I’m worth it: in defense of the dowry

[Lite Beer]

Why I’m worth it: in defense of the dowry
By Prae SakaowanSeptember

OPINION – I've often sympathized with foreign men when the word “dowry” is brought up.

In the modern-day Thai culture, a dowry is still common practice in wedding ceremonies. Thai dowries typically consist of jewelry for the bride to wear on her wedding day and cash for the bride’s parents.

The subject of money is awkward, even for the Thai couples. But a dowry is an even bigger matter (and mess) when the groom is a foreigner.

Not a single foreigner I know is comfortable parting with their hard-earned cash (generally at least THB100,000) to marry their Thai girlfriends, most of whom are from the Bangkok middle-class and obviously have no intention of deceiving anyone for money.

Whenever the subject is raised at the dining table, somehow the Thai girl is automatically viewed as a Nana gold-digger. The responses we often get from blue-eyed boyfriends tend to sound something like:

“That’s stupid. I won’t pay to marry someone.”

“I don’t have that kind of money.”

“I thought you loved me for me. This breaks my heart.” (Said in a sarcastic tone.)

When Thai girls talk money, our foreign boyfriends seem to grow earmuffs. I’m starting to think that maybe it is the word “dowry” itself that scares men. One guy even told me that the dowry is an ancient tradition that should have died hundreds of years ago. At the risk of sounding treasonous, I think he may be right, but the fact remains that the dowry still exists and is rightfully important to most Thai families.

The practice of giving the bride’s family a large amount of money was best suited to a past when male commoners had to leave their families every other month for work. In those days, when a couple got married the guy had to pay up so the wife could take care of herself and the children when her husband was away.

Somehow hundreds of years later, the dowry lives on as an integral part of Thai matrimony. The idea seems especially weird when you consider that Thai women these days often earn as much as their partners.

The question really should be why these girls still ask you to pay a dowry, and why they are so offended when you refuse to do so.

Let me enlighten you. As funny as it sounds, a dowry represents your respect. Most Thais are very attached to their families and, as a result, Thai marriage is a monumental union of two households. That old aphorism, “if you marry a Thai girl, you marry her family as well” is true.

The dowry is a gift from the groom’s family and a small part of khan mark, an exquisite arrangement of Thai symbols of luck including banana leaves, flowers and fruits presented in golden trays. The khan mark is presented at the wedding ceremony, which is sacred and a chance for the wedded couple to ask their families for blessings. This means you officially ask your girlfriend’s parents for permission to have her as a life partner. Thai parents find the ceremony very important and necessary. If not done properly, it would seem to them that you're running away with their daughter without respect.

So if you look at the bigger picture, it’s the Thai wedding ceremony that your girlfriend wants, not just the dowry. By refusing to have a ceremony you're demonstrating that you are not willing to make things official and right for her family.

Now you might think, “In that case, I will just give her THB500. That’s my kind of dowry.”

Thais describe dowry as kha nam nom (translated to ‘cost for breastfeeding’). It is an important display of appreciation for the mother-in law. Essentially, when you hand over a dowry you're saying, “thanks for raising your daughter so well.” The value of a dowry depends on how much the parents think is appropriate for their daughter. So it is normal for a wealthy family to ask for a more expensive dowry.

Read More: http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2013/09/07/why-im-worth-it-defense-dowry

-- Coconuts Bangkok 2013-09-07

[anselpixel]

There's no believable defense of the practice.

The western custom is much closer to reality: the bride's family presents a dowry to the groom's family for providing them with a protector and source of livelihood for their daughter.

It's especially irksome that any family would expect a bride price when the daughter has already produced one or more children who will become the financial responsibility of the new husband. Thai men want nothing to do with such a situation, and the only taker is often a foreigner with a more generous attitude toward other people's children.

Sin sot deserves to die off as a cultural norm. It may have a traditional function among Thais, but makes no sense to those of us who aren't born to the culture. I certainly don't equate gifts of money with respect, and I doubt many Westerners do.

[cooked]

I have seen 100 000 being counted out into a silver tray and then being given back to the bride who supplied it in the first place (!) in the evening. Both were Thais. Ridiculous but the older generation expect it and they can be pretty rigid about it, the mother-in-law wasn't aware of all this manoeuvring going on behind her back.

[Marcel1]

Is she a stand up comedian? would love to see that show!..

Edited September 7, 2013 by Marcel1

[Hedghog]

I won't pay a bar fine.

Never mind pay a dowry,for some bird that's been around the block a few times.

Single suits some.

But not all.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[bangkokrick]

In the case of Thai Farang marriages the Thai dowry is best described as an opportunity to make money from parents selling their daughters. Dress it up as you will.

[theblether]

It's a Thai tradition.

We are not Thai.

So we are off the hook.

...............................................................................

[AnotherOneAmerican]

This thread is useless without a photo of the original writer and her asking price.

[Redhawk]

Can someone help me, what does giving money i.e. paying a dowry has to do with paying respect to the parents of the bride, and does the union of two household justifies being robbed! To me it means you have to pay an entry fee, dowry, to be legally robbed when married, it is the same nonsens as to take your beer with yaou to your favorite pub, Once married you avoid the heat!

[BeforeTigers]

It's interesting, because the author makes quite a big deal of pointing out how westerners don't appreciate the culture with regard to wedding ceremonies and dowry. In fact, she makes light of the fact that all of her western male friends are uncomfortable with the subject of money trading hands in matters of the heart.

Did it not occur to her that that uniformly negative response was an indication of beliefs in our own culture? If 10 out of 10 men find this to be of questionable taste, doesn't it make sense that it must be a feature of a larger culture, rather than the individual's disrespect for the tradition?

It's nothing to do with disrespect for the culture, nor with the actual amount of money involved. Many western men are simply uncomfortable with the idea of exchanging money for a woman that we respect. Symbolic or not. Let alone the idea that we owe a favor to the parents for a decision they made long before we ever came around.

We have a kind of dowry-like tradition in the west as well. In the form of an engagement ring. And it it's generally worth more than a Thai dowry. It serves a somewhat similar function of displaying commitment as well as financial means to support a family.

My 2¢

Edited September 7, 2013 by BeforeTigers

[Dr Robert]

OP this appears to be a respectful, well considered contribution, which I am inclined to support. Most of your critics are arrogant enough to consider their opinions on the matter, (despite the fact that they are guests in a different culture where many social norms don't equate to their own views), are worthwhile and sage. It is a conceit to think other than you have reasoned. It is refreshing to see that someone actually gets it...nice work.

[transam]

I'm going for a beer.

[Dr Robert]

It's interesting, because the author makes quite a big deal of pointing out how westerners don't appreciate the culture with regard to wedding ceremonies and dowry. In fact, she makes light of the fact that all of her western male friends are uncomfortable with the subject of money trading hands in matters of the heart.

Did it not occur to her that that uniformly negative response was an indication of beliefs in our own culture? If 10 out of 10 men find this to be of questionable taste, doesn't it make sense that it must be a feature of a larger culture, rather than the individual's disrespect for the tradition?

It has absolutely nothing to do with disrespect for the culture, nor with the actual amount of money involved, I assure you. Many western men are simply uncomfortable with the idea of exchanging money for a woman that we respect. Symbolic or not. Let alone the idea that we owe a favor to the parents for a decision they made long before we ever came around.

Food for thought.

nah, not food for thought at all, you just miss the point entirely. just insensitive drivel dressed as smart ass commentary...because you can write relatively grammatically correctly, doesn't give the content any value.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I wouldn't want to think of my wife as an object I purchased.

Once I go down that road the next logical step would be to consider trading her in when she begins to look old and worn.

Hang on, isn't that another Thai tradition?

Objectifying women = bad

Edited September 7, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[BeforeTigers]

It's interesting, because the author makes quite a big deal of pointing out how westerners don't appreciate the culture with regard to wedding ceremonies and dowry. In fact, she makes light of the fact that all of her western male friends are uncomfortable with the subject of money trading hands in matters of the heart.

Did it not occur to her that that uniformly negative response was an indication of beliefs in our own culture? If 10 out of 10 men find this to be of questionable taste, doesn't it make sense that it must be a feature of a larger culture, rather than the individual's disrespect for the tradition?

It has absolutely nothing to do with disrespect for the culture, nor with the actual amount of money involved, I assure you. Many western men are simply uncomfortable with the idea of exchanging money for a woman that we respect. Symbolic or not. Let alone the idea that we owe a favor to the parents for a decision they made long before we ever came around.

Food for thought.

nah, not food for thought at all, you just miss the point entirely. just insensitive drivel dressed as smart ass commentary...because you can write relatively grammatically correctly, doesn't give the content any value.

While I appreciate the compliment, calling my personal, decently reasoned and, in your words, well-written opinion on the matter "drivel" without giving a single counterpoint is simply a flame.

My opinion was every bit as valid as the one made in the article above.

Enjoy your scatter shot anger.

Edited September 7, 2013 by BeforeTigers

[benalibina]

Dowry/sin sod asked by the thai parents 1 can say its culture and tradition but IMO it proves the failure/lack of morals and economical succes of the parents.

[bangkokrick]

Is it not tradition that the sin sod be returned to the groom following the wedding. Thought that it was just for show, showing face as is apparently important in Asian cultures

Of course in inter cultural marriages the rules often change.

[uty6543]

The OP does not say what the bridegroom should be getting for the money.

I would expect

The girl has not been previously married (only 1 dowry ) I think some girls make a living collect dowries

Has no children

Has not been working in a bar.

[alexander69]

Muppet

[dudu]

These threads are put on here so we can beat the shit out of each other, after all, opinions are like aresholes,everybodies got one.

Edited September 7, 2013 by dudu

[tingtongfarang]

It's interesting, because the author makes quite a big deal of pointing out how westerners don't appreciate the culture with regard to wedding ceremonies and dowry. In fact, she makes light of the fact that all of her western male friends are uncomfortable with the subject of money trading hands in matters of the heart.

Did it not occur to her that that uniformly negative response was an indication of beliefs in our own culture? If 10 out of 10 men find this to be of questionable taste, doesn't it make sense that it must be a feature of a larger culture, rather than the individual's disrespect for the tradition?

It's nothing to do with disrespect for the culture, nor with the actual amount of money involved. Many western men are simply uncomfortable with the idea of exchanging money for a woman that we respect. Symbolic or not. Let alone the idea that we owe a favor to the parents for a decision they made long before we ever came around.

We have a kind of dowry-like tradition in the west as well. In the form of an engagement ring. And it it's generally worth more than a Thai dowry. It serves a somewhat similar function of displaying commitment as well as financial means to support a family.

My 2¢

And often later when the engagement goes tits up it hopefully gets thrown back at you

Edited September 7, 2013 by tingtongfarang

[transam]

These threads are put on here so we can beat the shit out of each other, after all, opinions are like aresholes,everybodies got one.

Nooooooo, thats a Chevy Camaro. ................. ..................

[travelman]

Make money while remaining in Thailand of course with the help of Thai Girl friend/wife. Don't spend your hard earned savings for rainy days. That is the only principle I follow. I suggest wise people to follow the same.

Cheers

[lee b]

Its a joke, when i got married ( to a Thai ) Her parents said i must pay. I refused to and we got married. Her parents wanted nothing to do with me after that, WHAT A RESULT !!!

[davejones]

I bet a Thai man marrying a Western woman doesn't give her a dowry. If a Thai woman marries a Western man, then two cultures are involved, and each culture should be respected. It seems that the OP doesn't even try to understand Western culture, but expects Western men to go along with Thai culture. No easy answers to this one, but I'm sure the practice will be gone in another generation. It's already started dying out. Despite what the OP says, many Thai families don't agree with this and don't do it. Many Thais I've talked to who have a more cosmopolitan outlook on life are slightly embarrassed that this still goes on in Thailand.

[dudu]

I know a guy who asked why he should pay, the reply was,because we raised her and it cost a lot of money,so he said, ok give me a list with prices, believe it or not, breast feeding milk was on the list, among other ridiculous things,it came to about 400,000, he refused to pay, after he'd already bought land and built a house for the parents, anyway he is married and they are all very happy.

[soi41]

From the OP: The dowry is a gift from the grooms family"

For the typical western groom here, does that mean his children or his grandchildren??

[abrahamzvi]

There's no believable defense of the practice.

The western custom is much closer to reality: the bride's family presents a dowry to the groom's family for providing them with a protector and source of livelihood for their daughter.

It's especially irksome that any family would expect a bride price when the daughter has already produced one or more children who will become the financial responsibility of the new husband. Thai men want nothing to do with such a situation, and the only taker is often a foreigner with a more generous attitude toward other people's children.

Sin sot deserves to die off as a cultural norm. It may have a traditional function among Thais, but makes no sense to those of us who aren't born to the culture. I certainly don't equate gifts of money with respect, and I doubt many Westerners do.

Although I understand to a certain degree the hesitation (or refusal) of a non Thai (european) man to pay a dowry, I resent the remarks made here, as they show utter disrespect to Thai culture. Let's face it - nobody is forced to live in Thailand, to marry a Thai girl, or retire here. Obviously there are parts of the Thai culture which are foreign, or even offensive to non Thais. We, non Thais, have to accept that some of our culture may be as strange and even offensive to Thais and make up our minds, do we or don't we, are we prepared, or aren't we, to accept Thai culture if we want to connect to Thailand or Thais. If we are not capable of doing so let us draw the consequences, instead of permanently offending the Thais and their culture.

I personally, have a Thai wife (for over 25 years) and two daughters, who were born in Europe, but we have been living here for over 10 years now. Both our daughters are over 20 and when my wife told me that she expects our future sons in law to pay a dowry, my immediate reaction was " I am NOT prepared to sell my daughters" ("we don't need it, and even if we did, I wouldn't do it"). After my wife explained the whole cultural background to me, I accepted this. The main part is that if the bridegroom in not prepared tp pay a dowry, he, according to Thai culture, does NOt respect either his bride nor her family. If one looks around the world, or even back to our own history, there are, or used to be, worse cultural customs than a dowry. One last thing. Although we Europeans are not used to pay our future parents in law, it is normal for us to buy Jewellery (diamond rings for the engagement, as an example) for our brides. So we also have our customs, which come close to a dowry, don't we?

[caykay]

A big part of Thai tradition is to ignore everyone else's traditions

[bra]

There's no believable defense of the practice.

The western custom is much closer to reality: the bride's family presents a dowry to the groom's family for providing them with a protector and source of livelihood for their daughter.

It's especially irksome that any family would expect a bride price when the daughter has already produced one or more children who will become the financial responsibility of the new husband. Thai men want nothing to do with such a situation, and the only taker is often a foreigner with a more generous attitude toward other people's children.

Sin sot deserves to die off as a cultural norm. It may have a traditional function among Thais, but makes no sense to those of us who aren't born to the culture. I certainly don't equate gifts of money with respect, and I doubt many Westerners do.

Although I understand to a certain degree the hesitation (or refusal) of a non Thai (european) man to pay a dowry, I resent the remarks made here, as they show utter disrespect to Thai culture. Let's face it - nobody is forced to live in Thailand, to marry a Thai girl, or retire here. Obviously there are parts of the Thai culture which are foreign, or even offensive to non Thais. We, non Thais, have to accept that some of our culture may be as strange and even offensive to Thais and make up our minds, do we or don't we, are we prepared, or aren't we, to accept Thai culture if we want to connect to Thailand or Thais. If we are not capable of doing so let us draw the consequences, instead of permanently offending the Thais and their culture.

I personally, have a Thai wife (for over 25 years) and two daughters, who were born in Europe, but we have been living here for over 10 years now. Both our daughters are over 20 and when my wife told me that she expects our future sons in law to pay a dowry, my immediate reaction was " I am NOT prepared to sell my daughters" ("we don't need it, and even if we did, I wouldn't do it"). After my wife explained the whole cultural background to me, I accepted this. The main part is that if the bridegroom in not prepared tp pay a dowry, he, according to Thai culture, does NOt respect either his bride nor her family. If one looks around the world, or even back to our own history, there are, or used to be, worse cultural customs than a dowry. One last thing. Although we Europeans are not used to pay our future parents in law, it is normal for us to buy Jewellery (diamond rings for the engagement, as an example) for our brides. So we also have our customs, which come close to a dowry, don't we?

An excellent response. I will marry my Thai lady soon and will pay a dowry and conform with Thai tradition and culture. The simple reason being her family is Thai and this is where we live. For those of you who don't like to conform with this culture, just don't marry a Thai and it might be better still if you don't live here if it upsets you so much. Oh just so you can really get your nuts in an uproar my bride is an ex bar girl!