Why I’m worth it: in defense of the dowry

[bangkokrick]

There's no believable defense of the practice.

The western custom is much closer to reality: the bride's family presents a dowry to the groom's family for providing them with a protector and source of livelihood for their daughter.

It's especially irksome that any family would expect a bride price when the daughter has already produced one or more children who will become the financial responsibility of the new husband. Thai men want nothing to do with such a situation, and the only taker is often a foreigner with a more generous attitude toward other people's children.

Sin sot deserves to die off as a cultural norm. It may have a traditional function among Thais, but makes no sense to those of us who aren't born to the culture. I certainly don't equate gifts of money with respect, and I doubt many Westerners do.

Although I understand to a certain degree the hesitation (or refusal) of a non Thai (european) man to pay a dowry, I resent the remarks made here, as they show utter disrespect to Thai culture. Let's face it - nobody is forced to live in Thailand, to marry a Thai girl, or retire here. Obviously there are parts of the Thai culture which are foreign, or even offensive to non Thais. We, non Thais, have to accept that some of our culture may be as strange and even offensive to Thais and make up our minds, do we or don't we, are we prepared, or aren't we, to accept Thai culture if we want to connect to Thailand or Thais. If we are not capable of doing so let us draw the consequences, instead of permanently offending the Thais and their culture.

I personally, have a Thai wife (for over 25 years) and two daughters, who were born in Europe, but we have been living here for over 10 years now. Both our daughters are over 20 and when my wife told me that she expects our future sons in law to pay a dowry, my immediate reaction was " I am NOT prepared to sell my daughters" ("we don't need it, and even if we did, I wouldn't do it"). After my wife explained the whole cultural background to me, I accepted this. The main part is that if the bridegroom in not prepared tp pay a dowry, he, according to Thai culture, does NOt respect either his bride nor her family. If one looks around the world, or even back to our own history, there are, or used to be, worse cultural customs than a dowry. One last thing. Although we Europeans are not used to pay our future parents in law, it is normal for us to buy Jewellery (diamond rings for the engagement, as an example) for our brides. So we also have our customs, which come close to a dowry, don't we?

An excellent response. I will marry my Thai lady soon and will pay a dowry and conform with Thai tradition and culture. The simple reason being her family is Thai and this is where we live. For those of you who don't like to conform with this culture, just don't marry a Thai and it might be better still if you don't live here if it upsets you so much. Oh just so you can really get your nuts in an uproar my bride is an ex bar girl!

That is very much your choice. If you want to go shopping for a wife that is your business, but many Western people including myself find the idea abhorrent.

[spermwhale]

There's no believable defense of the practice.

The western custom is much closer to reality: the bride's family presents a dowry to the groom's family for providing them with a protector and source of livelihood for their daughter.

It's especially irksome that any family would expect a bride price when the daughter has already produced one or more children who will become the financial responsibility of the new husband. Thai men want nothing to do with such a situation, and the only taker is often a foreigner with a more generous attitude toward other people's children.

Sin sot deserves to die off as a cultural norm. It may have a traditional function among Thais, but makes no sense to those of us who aren't born to the culture. I certainly don't equate gifts of money with respect, and I doubt many Westerners do.

That's right.. I'm of the opinion that if a woman here wants to marry a foreigner, then she should not even bring up the dowry. It's an insult.

[spermwhale]

There's no believable defense of the practice.

The western custom is much closer to reality: the bride's family presents a dowry to the groom's family for providing them with a protector and source of livelihood for their daughter.

It's especially irksome that any family would expect a bride price when the daughter has already produced one or more children who will become the financial responsibility of the new husband. Thai men want nothing to do with such a situation, and the only taker is often a foreigner with a more generous attitude toward other people's children.

Sin sot deserves to die off as a cultural norm. It may have a traditional function among Thais, but makes no sense to those of us who aren't born to the culture. I certainly don't equate gifts of money with respect, and I doubt many Westerners do.

Although I understand to a certain degree the hesitation (or refusal) of a non Thai (european) man to pay a dowry, I resent the remarks made here, as they show utter disrespect to Thai culture. Let's face it - nobody is forced to live in Thailand, to marry a Thai girl, or retire here. Obviously there are parts of the Thai culture which are foreign, or even offensive to non Thais. We, non Thais, have to accept that some of our culture may be as strange and even offensive to Thais and make up our minds, do we or don't we, are we prepared, or aren't we, to accept Thai culture if we want to connect to Thailand or Thais. If we are not capable of doing so let us draw the consequences, instead of permanently offending the Thais and their culture.

I personally, have a Thai wife (for over 25 years) and two daughters, who were born in Europe, but we have been living here for over 10 years now. Both our daughters are over 20 and when my wife told me that she expects our future sons in law to pay a dowry, my immediate reaction was " I am NOT prepared to sell my daughters" ("we don't need it, and even if we did, I wouldn't do it"). After my wife explained the whole cultural background to me, I accepted this. The main part is that if the bridegroom in not prepared tp pay a dowry, he, according to Thai culture, does NOt respect either his bride nor her family. If one looks around the world, or even back to our own history, there are, or used to be, worse cultural customs than a dowry. One last thing. Although we Europeans are not used to pay our future parents in law, it is normal for us to buy Jewellery (diamond rings for the engagement, as an example) for our brides. So we also have our customs, which come close to a dowry, don't we?

Sounds like your wife has herself an obedient lapdog.

[rct99q]

It's a Thai tradition.

We are not Thai.

So we are off the hook.

...............................................................................

What do you mean "we" I take it from some of your posts the last thing you would do is marry a Thai person. If so you do not have the option of using the word "we". Please edit and re post this saying I am not Thai .....I am off the hook.

Secondly I also believe you are Scottish and from what I hear, male Scotspersons have a hard time letting their sh*t go down the toilet as there may be some value left in it!

[orosee]

"... to marry their Thai girlfriends, most of whom are from the Bangkok middle-class and obviously have no intention of deceiving anyone for money."

This and at least one reference to Thai women as "Thai girls" in the OP makes me believe that this is a sarcastic article written by a white man.

[impulse]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

A dowry is a process whereby parental property is distributed to a daughter at her marriage (i.e. inter vivos) rather than at the holder's death (mortis causa). A dowry establishes some variety of conjugal fund, the nature of which may vary widely. This fund ensures her support (or endowment) in widowhood and eventually goes to provide for her sons and daughters.

Dowry contrasts with the related concepts called brideprice and dower. While brideprice is a payment by the groom or his family to the bride's parents, direct dowry is the wealth transferred from bride's family to groom and groom's family, ostensibly for the bride. Indirect dowry (or dower) is the property given to the bride herself by the groom at the time of marriage and which remains under her ownership and control.

A little semantic exercise. What the OP is referring to is brideprice. That makes it sound "different" to western ears.

Doesn't bring any value to the discussion, but what the hey.

[bangkokrick]

"... to marry their Thai girlfriends, most of whom are from the Bangkok middle-class and obviously have no intention of deceiving anyone for money."

This and at least one reference to Thai women as "Thai girls" in the OP makes me believe that this is a sarcastic article written by a white man.

I think that you will find that the author Prae Sakaowan is actually a Thai female,

[GuyL]

If I am not mistaken, the dowry / sin sod has to be paid when the Thai bride is still a virgin (or at least, is still supposed to be one to her parents' eyes). I guess that foreigners very seldom marry a virgin Thai woman, so, the dowry subject should not even be discussed in the large majority of mixed marriages in the Land of Smiles, isn't it?

Edited September 8, 2013 by GuyL

[impulse]

If I am not mistaken, the dowry / sin sod has to be paid when the Thai bride is still a virgin (or at least, is still supposed to be one to her parents' eyes). I guess that foreigners very seldom marry a virgin Thai woman, so, the dowry subject should not even be discussed in the large majority of mixed marriage in the Land of Smiles,isn't it?

If the virginity thing were taken literally, the white wedding gown industry would go broke in a week....

I don't begrudge their illusions.

Edited September 8, 2013 by impulse

[siamjimi]

What sort of spin is this - explain your supporting background - are you attempting to hold onto tradition ? or is this a modern day Thai norm to pay dowry (not) - affluent Thais never ask for a Dowry - so is this a lower income Thai financial agreement ? - I think not !!!

This is just another spin to keep this subject alive and continue the quest to extort farang's bank accounts.

Before you met the "Farang" you paid your own rent - paid your own food and sent money to your family.

Once you met and live-in with the Farang all of a sudden its free-for-all with his pocket book and GF expect to sit at home on their duff - not work - watch Thai soaps all day. In most cases have the Farang subsidize their family or in some cases extended family as well - taking full advantage of the man that loves you enough to do just that - what a sucker!!!!!! - right.

Why not be the wiser and tell all your Thai girly friends that have a Farang taking care of them to keep their jobs and send home 100% of their paychecks seeing the Farang pays for everything else - ouch!! - that never come to mind did it.? You really should leave the men alone to provide for you at their discretion and within their limitations no matter how big or small their pocket books are.

What your saying is it’s not enough to better the family with home improvements and other generous equities other than cash in hand.

And Spermwhale - you just put a price on your love - so a person's love is limited to their income ? – so if your of simpler financial means would she have just walked out on you and gone looking for another Farang that does have the financial income to meet her requirements - <deleted> - what a joke both your presenting to this forum.

[AYJAYDEE]

the fact that so many guys here are so quick to disagree with the OP goes a long way to explaining why so many of them have such rocky relationships with thai women. of course the dowry should be paid.

[GuyL]

If I am not mistaken, the dowry / sin sod has to be paid when the Thai bride is still a virgin (or at least, is still supposed to be one to her parents' eyes). I guess that foreigners very seldom marry a virgin Thai woman, so, the dowry subject should not even be discussed in the large majority of mixed marriage in the Land of Smiles,isn't it?

If the virginity thing were taken literally, the white wedding gown industry would go broke in a week....

I don't begrudge their illusions.

I know many young women in Thailand who are still very serious about not giving their cherry before the wedding night. Obviously, that's not the kind of women that most foreigners are going to find in the red districts of Bangkok, Pattaya, etc., but they do exist and are quite numerous, especially among the Thai middle-class.

[Phronesis]

When you are approached by the mother and daughter on the issue of sin sod. Just look the MIL square in the eye and ask if her daughter is a virgin.

[Jawnie]

There's no believable defense of the practice.

The western custom is much closer to reality: the bride's family presents a dowry to the groom's family for providing them with a protector and source of livelihood for their daughter.

It's especially irksome that any family would expect a bride price when the daughter has already produced one or more children who will become the financial responsibility of the new husband. Thai men want nothing to do with such a situation, and the only taker is often a foreigner with a more generous attitude toward other people's children.

Sin sot deserves to die off as a cultural norm. It may have a traditional function among Thais, but makes no sense to those of us who aren't born to the culture. I certainly don't equate gifts of money with respect, and I doubt many Westerners do.

Although I understand to a certain degree the hesitation (or refusal) of a non Thai (european) man to pay a dowry, I resent the remarks made here, as they show utter disrespect to Thai culture. Let's face it - nobody is forced to live in Thailand, to marry a Thai girl, or retire here. Obviously there are parts of the Thai culture which are foreign, or even offensive to non Thais. We, non Thais, have to accept that some of our culture may be as strange and even offensive to Thais and make up our minds, do we or don't we, are we prepared, or aren't we, to accept Thai culture if we want to connect to Thailand or Thais. If we are not capable of doing so let us draw the consequences, instead of permanently offending the Thais and their culture.

I personally, have a Thai wife (for over 25 years) and two daughters, who were born in Europe, but we have been living here for over 10 years now. Both our daughters are over 20 and when my wife told me that she expects our future sons in law to pay a dowry, my immediate reaction was " I am NOT prepared to sell my daughters" ("we don't need it, and even if we did, I wouldn't do it"). After my wife explained the whole cultural background to me, I accepted this. The main part is that if the bridegroom in not prepared tp pay a dowry, he, according to Thai culture, does NOt respect either his bride nor her family. If one looks around the world, or even back to our own history, there are, or used to be, worse cultural customs than a dowry. One last thing. Although we Europeans are not used to pay our future parents in law, it is normal for us to buy Jewellery (diamond rings for the engagement, as an example) for our brides. So we also have our customs, which come close to a dowry, don't we?

Sorry to say, but, there are two cultures involved in such a marriage. The fact that the couple is located in Thailand does not negate that the other partner is from a different culture with different norms. To expect that the "guest" must abandon their cultural beliefs is no less insensitive and arrogant than anyone who dislikes the dowry practice. I always find in rather self-serving when women, regardless of culture, expect men to shell out a bunch of money to the because "they are worth it." Baloney.

[oxo1947]

An excellent response. I will marry my Thai lady soon and will pay a dowry and conform with Thai tradition and culture. The simple reason being her family is Thai and this is where we live. For those of you who don't like to conform with this culture, just don't marry a Thai and it might be better still if you don't live here if it upsets you so much. Oh just so you can really get your nuts in an uproar my bride is an ex bar girl!

Maybe you can get all her former clients to chip in as well--making it an even bigger pot of gold for her very needy parents.

I don’t mean to be impolite Bra, it’s just your assumptions’ about how we should all follow this tradition because we live here, or get out of Thailand, is so very arrogant. There are many other cultural practices around the world re brides, Clitoral mutilation is one that I suppose if the would be husband doesn’t believe in, he should taking your view remove himself from said country.

The Sin Sot practice is dying out because it is wrong---& If something is wrong or outdated--then change it, not just blindly accept it with reasoning like --I live here therefore I have to.

Just 2 points for you to ponder Bra 1/ Many good ladies are/were bar girls because of their financial situation, if your bride to be was in that category--one would think that she would be very grateful for you to be giving her a better life----rather than looking at you as the last big pay off.

2/ As you’re so into the cultural aspect of this then look at the meaning of the word sin-sot, everyone who has dealt with a bribe situation knows where the Sin part comes from....the Sot part is from Borrisot = a Virgin, That’s why it’s so laughable to Thai's who know this, that some ladies with children also try to get onto the band wagon, if they find that laughable, just imagine how hilarious they view your marrying a prostitute & paying a bag of money to the parents for her virginity.

Good luck with your coming marriage Bra—I have many friends in long term relationships and marriages, who have taken girls from bad bar situations – I have just never seen one where the girl was so grateful that she thought more should be paid for taking her out of it.

Edited September 8, 2013 by oxo1947

[impulse]

When you are approached by the mother and daughter on the issue of sin sod. Just look the MIL square in the eye and ask if her daughter is a virgin.

I'm fundamentally against the concept of dowry or sin-sot, but if watching 100,000 baht being counted at the wedding is going to give the in-laws some respect in their community for raising up a virgin, then I'd be willing to put up the cash to give my new family members that satisfaction.

What happens to that cash after it's flashed would, of course, be up for discussion. But the public show would be a non-issue.

Otherwise, I'm saying "My bride is damaged goods". Great way to start a life together with the entire family. It would be like making your bride wear a red dress in the USA.

Edited September 8, 2013 by impulse

[Mangkhut]

And in India - the brides Family have to pay the grooms Family a dowry..... A much better tradition if you ask me......

[transam]

Many moons ago in the UK the father of the bride coughed up for the wedding, now only well off dads help out. The practice has moved on to a changing world.

If a farang has dosh and wants to give handouts in LOS, well, up to him, BUT the extended family will be smiling and all rubbing their hands together, I am sure about that.

[nullx8]

to be honest, i find it acceptable in relation to the headline "Why I’m worth it: in defense of the dowry"

if the parents did a good job in raise a nice girl with qualities other then dance on a upright siver pipe, i dont see any reason of doubting the "payment of respect" with some money/gold

the problem is that some useless junk "thinks" they can sell the daughter for whatever millions and the stupid falang does actually going to pay for it.

with this in mind, it makes this whole thing to me very little a cultural issue,

and more the usual missing of mutual respect and common sense in this country.

i'm Married to a thai myself, and yes paid a dowry while the ceremonial stuff, but the parents are understanding peoples with a higer IQ than a piece of wood,

so the whole dowry thing was more something to please the the more cultural thinking relatives.

[jeff2258]

Hey guys, it is very simple. If you want to marry her, just follows the culture and if not, just forget it. If western country don't practice this, then go marry a western women.

[theblether]

An excellent post oxo

There is not a singular Thai man in this country that would pay a single penny in Sin Sot for a Bar Girl that has been banged by a thousand farangs. The idea is ludicrous and disgraceful.

In every way, shape in form, on every interpretation of the culture of Sin Sot, she has disqualified herself in the eyes of the Thais. You can be assured that she knows it, her family knows it, and everyone in the village knows it.

So do yourself a favour. Adopt the Thai male attitude.

No doubt though these farangs boasting about paying Sin Sot for Bar Girls know better than Thai men eh? I don't think you guys have any idea how absurd you are.

When In Thailand, Do As Thais Do. Thai Men Do Not Pay Sin Sot For Prostitutes.

Is that clear enough for you now?

[scotbeve]

I have seen 100 000 being counted out into a silver tray and then being given back to the bride who supplied it in the first place (!) in the evening. Both were Thais. Ridiculous but the older generation expect it and they can be pretty rigid about it, the mother-in-law wasn't aware of all this manoeuvring going on behind her back.

How about this one...? At my daughter's wedding, the grooms parents did not have enough money for (their) "face value" so they asked my missus nicely if they could "borrow" 1,000,000 baht (within the ceremony grounds) - so essentially we gave ourselves OUR money and had it returned to the bank quickly. Oh, there were 2 rings (not too shabby), some gold (fair-sized amount), and a Bangkok 180 sq. wah chanote (ahhhh... we are definitely keeping that...). Yes, it's pretty ludicrous!

[blazes]

Many of us farangs involved with Thai women have come to know them via Thai Love Links and other dating sites. Most of the women will have been married before, nearly always abandoned by the Thai husband who just gets up and leaves when he sees something better.

I have never heard it asserted that a pooying must have sin sot if she has been previously married. The whole sin sot thing has been linked to virginity and "mother's milk". BS, no matter what culture you are from.

By marrying an abandoned Thai woman, and taking on her child(ren), we Westerners perform a valuable social service for Thai culture and the Thai economy. The money we will lay out during the whole length of a successful marriage will far exceed what is demanded, by some, as sin sot.

[transam]

An excellent post oxo

There is not a singular Thai man in this country that would pay a single penny in Sin Sot for a Bar Girl that has been banged by a thousand farangs. The idea is ludicrous and disgraceful.

In every way, shape in form, on every interpretation of the culture of Sin Sot, she has disqualified herself in the eyes of the Thais. You can be assured that she knows it, her family knows it, and everyone in the village knows it.

So do yourself a favour. Adopt the Thai male attitude.

No doubt though these farangs boasting about paying Sin Sot for Bar Girls know better than Thai men eh? I don't think you guys have any idea how absurd you are.

When In Thailand, Do As Thais Do. Thai Men Do Not Pay Sin Sot For Prostitutes.

Is that clear enough for you now?

Well put. AND these girls are castigated in the eyes of Thai folk, even though the lady was probably feeding the extended family. The sin sod thing is to try and make things all square in the eyes of the displeased. True.

[theblether]

to be honest, i find it acceptable in relation to the headline "Why I’m worth it: in defense of the dowry"

if the parents did a good job in raise a nice girl with qualities other then dance on a upright siver pipe, i dont see any reason of doubting the "payment of respect" with some money/gold

the problem is that some useless junk "thinks" they can sell the daughter for whatever millions and the stupid falang does actually going to pay for it.

with this in mind, it makes this whole thing to me very little a cultural issue,

and more the usual missing of mutual respect and common sense in this country.

i'm Married to a thai myself, and yes paid a dowry while the ceremonial stuff, but the parents are understanding peoples with a higer IQ than a piece of wood,

so the whole dowry thing was more something to please the the more cultural thinking relatives.

In as much as I'm vehemently against paying Sin Sot, especially for hookers. ( I honestly cannot believe why anyone could be so stupid ), I have no problem with what you did, which is the Ceremonial showing of Sin Sot.

I think that's a lovely little tradition, akin to us renting a Rolls Royce for the day. It looks nice and flashy for the occasion, and goes back to the garage that night. Great.

Mom gets to beam proudly, the family looks on in astonishment at the immense riches, happiness all round!!

.....................................................................................................................................................................

We're actually needing a poll.........my thoughts are, ( from talking to several people ) that the marriages that took place with no Sin Sot or Ceremonial Sin Sot only have been the most resilient. If ( and I mean if ) I am correct, that would be a great barometer for anyone considering marriage.

[impulse]

If I am not mistaken, the dowry / sin sod has to be paid when the Thai bride is still a virgin (or at least, is still supposed to be one to her parents' eyes). I guess that foreigners very seldom marry a virgin Thai woman, so, the dowry subject should not even be discussed in the large majority of mixed marriage in the Land of Smiles,isn't it?

If the virginity thing were taken literally, the white wedding gown industry would go broke in a week....

I don't begrudge their illusions.

I know many young women in Thailand who are still very serious about not giving their cherry before the wedding night. Obviously, that's not the kind of women that most foreigners are going to find in the red districts of Bangkok, Pattaya, etc., but they do exist and are quite numerous, especially among the Thai middle-class.

My post was more about the wedding gown industry in general- worldwide, but specifically in the USA, the only place I can speak about from experience. I'm quite certain there are some chaste Thai women.

While I am sure there will be virgin brides in every country, I doubt the percentage today would support more than a tiny market for white gowns. Yet there are millions sold each year, with no vetting at all to see if they're appropriate.

Be for or against sin sot. But it's as much about virginity as wearing a white dress is. It's about tradition, appearances, a girl's dreams from childhood, (and perhaps greedy parents- but that I cannot speak to).

To put it another way, if your USA bride to be comes in and says "Honey, I have found the perfect white wedding gown and it's 100,000 baht", you can say "I don't have 100,000 baht", or you can say "We need to save the money for something else". But if you say "I won't buy you that white dress because you're not a virgin", you better rethink getting married to her because she can make your life miserable in 1000 ways out of revenge.

Edited September 8, 2013 by impulse

[Mudcrab]

In Thailand you pays your bucks on the way in to the marriage. In the West you pays yours bucks on the way out. Same same only different

[bigbamboo]

Of course in western culture a dowry was paid by the wife's father to the husband.

[Nooky2]

Thais do not accept foreigners into their culture. We are aliens and will always be. Why do we need to participate in Thai culture when it benefits them? We don't get the benefits in our favor. So many use this dowry as a money grab from foreigners and at times will dump the foreigner and go at it again. What respect is that? Thais do not respect foreigners at any level. Screw the dowry.

[thousandpercent]

I totally agree that by giving money and jewelry to a bride and her family, a groom and his family are showing respect. I think brides and their families should expect that a man who joins their family should respect them, and that if he does not, they should reconsider welcoming him to the family. However, a marriage also requires that the woman and her family respect the man and his family. For those Thais that want to maintain this tradition, it's easy, and I can't imagaine any foreigner would be uncomfortable or fail to cooperate. The man will demonstrate his respect for the woman by giving her 100,000 baht cash and 10 baht gold, and the woman will show her respect for the man by giving him and his family 100,000 baht cash and 10 baht gold. Why would any Thai woman or her family refuse to show respect for the groom? If they do, this marriage should be avoided. I am sure this author would be enthusiastic about the idea of showing her respect for her groom by using her life savings to purchase gold for him and his family.