Why I’m worth it: in defense of the dowry

[transam]

Thais do not accept foreigners into their culture. We are aliens and will always be. Why do we need to participate in Thai culture when it benefits them? We don't get the benefits in our favor. So many use this dowry as a money grab from foreigners and at times will dump the foreigner and go at it again. What respect is that? Thais do not respect foreigners at any level. Screw the dowry.

Unfortunately many are blinded by and just hand over cash, would wager many reading here have fallen into that trap.

[thousandpercent]

Hey guys, it is very simple. If you want to marry her, just follows the culture and if not, just forget it. If western country don't practice this, then go marry a western women.

Wouldn't it work the other way, as well? If a Thai woman wants to adhere to Thai culture strictly, then she should marry a Thai man. If she wants to marry a Westerner, then she can "just follows the culture and if not, just forget it." If Thailand does not practice his culture, then go marry a Thai.

[PeVee1st]

Just another excuse to rip off farlangs. First the family sell their daughters into prostitution and later they sell them to a farlang and call it marriage. There is no limit to the lack of morals by these families!!!!

[Colabamumbai]

I would be better off in India where the brides parents pay the groom to take her off there hands.

As said why would you pay money, sin sod for a woman that has children from a previous affair or marriage?

A woman in Chaing Mai told me that she expected 500,000 Baht Sin Sod, she was divorced with one child. She later married a Thai man, and I asked her how much he paid, I said I am sure that he did not pay 500,000 Baht, she replied to me that it did not matter how much he paid.

Like most things in Thailand one price for them and one for us.

I tell the women you will get Sin Sod when I die, in return for having cared for me. Take it or leave it.

[Mudcrab]

Just another excuse to rip off farlangs. First the family sell their daughters into prostitution and later they sell them to a farlang and call it marriage. There is no limit to the lack of morals by these families!!!!

This is the opinion of the farang sexpat/tourists who go to Pattaya/Phuket etc.. believe it or not Thailand has a very reserved culture when it comes to sex/boyfriends etc. to the point of not showing affection in public places as we might in the west. Try kissing a Thai girl in public.

I have spent a lot of time in issan and trust me the parents do not sell their daughters into prostitution, often the daughters are lured there by the money to be made. They might come back with money and even a farang husband. And the rest of their lives is spent subject to gossip in the village.Not a nice thing to do but people do what they do to survive.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Mudcrab

[David48]

.

I'm cool with contributing a Sin Sot when the time comes ... just wanted that on the record.

The wherefores, whereabouts and refunds yet to be negotiated.

All in good time ... when the time is right.

.

[mesquite]

I would be better off in India where the brides parents pay the groom to take her off there hands.

As said why would you pay money, sin sod for a woman that has children from a previous affair or marriage?

A woman in Chaing Mai told me that she expected 500,000 Baht Sin Sod, she was divorced with one child. She later married a Thai man, and I asked her how much he paid, I said I am sure that he did not pay 500,000 Baht, she replied to me that it did not matter how much he paid.

Like most things in Thailand one price for them and one for us.

I tell the women you will get Sin Sod when I die, in return for having cared for me. Take it or leave it.

The only problem with that is you're worth more to them dead than alive.

[harryfrompattaya]

If I am not mistaken, the dowry / sin sod has to be paid when the Thai bride is still a virgin (or at least, is still supposed to be one to her parents' eyes). I guess that foreigners very seldom marry a virgin Thai woman, so, the dowry subject should not even be discussed in the large majority of mixed marriages in the Land of Smiles, isn't it?

Many Farangs that meet their wives in a bar believe the bride is still a virgin ( even if the bride has 3 children already) If you understood Thai culture all Farangs marry Virgins

[DoctorG]

I personally would not pay it, but as the Thais say "up to you".

[MeowBundit]

Virgin not older than 25 y.o = big sin sod

Not Virgin not older than 30 y.o = small sin sod

Married before = no sinsod

Married and have child = she, and her younger school friend as kik for you free of charge. (joke). NO sinsod for woman with baby

Thais not marry woman with child or give sin sod. Can marry only rich woman in profit of her money regardless of her babies

Nowadays all educated families just only "show" plate with money (100k baht covers it total) and some gold. Nothing more and this in new tradition bride family gives their married now children back in front of all people to make their face big. I attend 2 weddings thai/thai and thai/farang already and saw this.

Simple as this. If this is a tradition so WHY amount (!) in question?

In culture man can go lo family of woman. If woman go to man house/want benefit from his income, then how she help him in life?

[orosee]

"... to marry their Thai girlfriends, most of whom are from the Bangkok middle-class and obviously have no intention of deceiving anyone for money."

This and at least one reference to Thai women as "Thai girls" in the OP makes me believe that this is a sarcastic article written by a white man.

I think that you will find that the author Prae Sakaowan is actually a Thai female,

Thanks for the link, so I guess I was correct since the profile says that Prae is a fictional character. It should really be highlighted in the article, even though it's obvious from the writing style.

[Nayet]

2/ As you’re so into the cultural aspect of this then look at the meaning of the word sin-sot, everyone who has dealt with a bribe situation knows where the Sin part comes from....the Sot part is from Borrisot = a Virgin

Where did you hear this?

"Sot" in sin sot (สินสอด) is actually pronounced "sawt", whereas the "sot"-part in borrisot (บริสุทธิ์) is pronounced like "sut", or "soot" if you prefer, with a short vowel sound. That of course does not mean that one word is not derived from the other. Just curious.

That being said, I agree that it is an obsolete practice

Every argument for respecting the dowry practice boils down to little more than the emotioinal attachment some Thais have to this tradition. No logical arguments have been offered thus far.

Of course, there is a very easy way to circumvent the whole problem: don't marry your Thai girlfriend.

[marell]

This thread is useless without a photo of the original writer and her asking price.

And how much tread is left on the tires.

[bangkokrick]

"... to marry their Thai girlfriends, most of whom are from the Bangkok middle-class and obviously have no intention of deceiving anyone for money."

This and at least one reference to Thai women as "Thai girls" in the OP makes me believe that this is a sarcastic article written by a white man.

I think that you will find that the author Prae Sakaowan is actually a Thai female,

Thanks for the link, so I guess I was correct since the profile says that Prae is a fictional character. It should really be highlighted in the article, even though it's obvious from the writing style.

I did not actually see that link, but did visit her Facebook site. She looks anything but fictional on there. I take your point on the writing style.

https://www.facebook.com/stylishkitty

[bangkokrick]

This thread is useless without a photo of the original writer and her asking price.

And how much tread is left on the tires.

Decide for yourself from the pics on the FB page. If indeed they are not fictitious.

[robertson468]

Is it not tradition that the sin sod be returned to the groom following the wedding. Thought that it was just for show, showing face as is apparently important in Asian cultures

Of course in inter cultural marriages the rules often change.

This is exactly what happened after my Wedding to my Lovely Thai Wife. Parents not only returned all the money, but bought gold necklaces for us both and bangles (for her) as a good luck gift to us on our marriage. I am amazed at the amount of arrogant and conceited comments made by non-Thais regarding this cultural norm, just because they do not understand the issue (even although it has been more than adequately explained). It is part of an ancient custom steeped in Thai Tradition, as was in the West in days of yore. No doubt as time progresses customs like this will wither and die as has done in the so called "Developed Societies". In the mean time Folks (Men?) try to take your blinkers off and see and try to understand other cultures, not only Thai either.

[tom21]

sin sod is buying a woman it is against my beliefs and I will not do it. I have told the girl I am living with this so we are staying single. if I got pressured into giving sin sod I would walk away.

[dunque]

It's interesting, because the author makes quite a big deal of pointing out how westerners don't appreciate the culture with regard to wedding ceremonies and dowry. In fact, she makes light of the fact that all of her western male friends are uncomfortable with the subject of money trading hands in matters of the heart.

Did it not occur to her that that uniformly negative response was an indication of beliefs in our own culture? If 10 out of 10 men find this to be of questionable taste, doesn't it make sense that it must be a feature of a larger culture, rather than the individual's disrespect for the tradition?

It's nothing to do with disrespect for the culture, nor with the actual amount of money involved. Many western men are simply uncomfortable with the idea of exchanging money for a woman that we respect. Symbolic or not. Let alone the idea that we owe a favor to the parents for a decision they made long before we ever came around.

We have a kind of dowry-like tradition in the west as well. In the form of an engagement ring. And it it's generally worth more than a Thai dowry. It serves a somewhat similar function of displaying commitment as well as financial means to support a family.

My 2¢

And often later when the engagement goes tits up it hopefully gets thrown back at you

,,, and then you might find that whereas it may cost more than a Thai dowry, it is not actually worth more

[thailandist]

Dowry should include a refund policy as well. If the marriage falls apart the family should refund the money.

[lensta]

The easy way to negate this sin sot crap is to agree to honor their tradition

if they agree to honor the western tradition of the brides parents paying for

the wedding. They don't like this idea at all, no more mention of a sin sot.

[lensta]

Is it not tradition that the sin sod be returned to the groom following the wedding. Thought that it was just for show, showing face as is apparently important in Asian cultures

Of course in inter cultural marriages the rules often change.

This is exactly what happened after my Wedding to my Lovely Thai Wife. Parents not only returned all the money, but bought gold necklaces for us both and bangles (for her) as a good luck gift to us on our marriage. I am amazed at the amount of arrogant and conceited comments made by non-Thais regarding this cultural norm, just because they do not understand the issue (even although it has been more than adequately explained). It is part of an ancient custom steeped in Thai Tradition, as was in the West in days of yore. No doubt as time progresses customs like this will wither and die as has done in the so called "Developed Societies". In the mean time Folks (Men?) try to take your blinkers off and see and try to understand other cultures, not only Thai either.

Shouldn't it work both ways? Shouldn't Thais try to understand our cultural norms?

[atyclb]

It's interesting, because the author makes quite a big deal of pointing out how westerners don't appreciate the culture with regard to wedding ceremonies and dowry. In fact, she makes light of the fact that all of her western male friends are uncomfortable with the subject of money trading hands in matters of the heart.

Did it not occur to her that that uniformly negative response was an indication of beliefs in our own culture? If 10 out of 10 men find this to be of questionable taste, doesn't it make sense that it must be a feature of a larger culture, rather than the individual's disrespect for the tradition?

It's nothing to do with disrespect for the culture, nor with the actual amount of money involved. Many western men are simply uncomfortable with the idea of exchanging money for a woman that we respect. Symbolic or not. Let alone the idea that we owe a favor to the parents for a decision they made long before we ever came around.

We have a kind of dowry-like tradition in the west as well. In the form of an engagement ring. And it it's generally worth more than a Thai dowry. It serves a somewhat similar function of displaying commitment as well as financial means to support a family.

My 2¢

As one physician friend married to an attorney says; "fxck that"

[transam]

If a farang pay, he OK, if a farang NOT pay he OK. Remember that.

[BookMan]

If you give some money to the family of your wife to be , without getting it back, then that is sin sot.

If you give some money just for show and then get it back immediately after your wedding that is not sin sot.

Why do so many western guys believe that the Thai woman's tradition should completely override their own beliefs and traditions? If the Thai woman was so 100% traditional they would only be marrying a Thai bloke anyway.

Then there are the blokes who want to give sin sot for their wife who has been:

a. Previously married

b. Not married , but has kids.

In case, A, she would have received sin sot already the first time

In case 'B',would a Thai male pay sin sot?

if you are paying sin sot in either of those circumstances it is hardly traditional is it?

It does seem to me that many guys pay the money because they either think it guarantees the woman will stay with them or they fear the woman will leave them if they don't pay it.

Edited September 8, 2013 by BookMan

[lensta]

mmm if that is really her photo on facebook

then I would have to say that she is worth a

sinsot

[Whidbeyboy]

I won't pay a bar fine.

Never mind pay a dowry,for some bird that's been around the block a few times.

Single suits some.

But not all.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You won't pay a bar fine? What do they do give it for free? Not likely.

Man, you must be cheap.

[atyclb]

After living here for a while it seems money is so so very important in society. It is tied into greed and often cheating and corruption. Much of society is based upon image rather than substance(exceptions duly noted) cause there simply does not exist a whole lot of substance. (

I don't agree with the India system either in which the brides family pays the groom.

IMO and experience, if you are still bent on marriage, check out Japan, a mainly middle class society with high education standard, integrity and honor.

[atyclb]

I have seen 100 000 being counted out into a silver tray and then being given back to the bride who supplied it in the first place (!) in the evening. Both were Thais. Ridiculous but the older generation expect it and they can be pretty rigid about it, the mother-in-law wasn't aware of all this manoeuvring going on behind her back.

So much of society equate self esteem, status, etc etc with money. Outside the box Thai friends not only have affirmed this but criticized it. One guy frowns upon society's belief that money is the answer to everything, money can fix anything. Because of the education status quo, there is very little meaningful progress in society. .

It would seem in a case where the groom has superior education, and higher social status that the bridal family should be pleased to see their daughter heading towards a better life, an upwardly mobile life. Using reason and logic it would seem this better future could be paid for by the brides family to show appreciation for the grooms future endeavors..

[Leung Falang]

I bet a Thai man marrying a Western woman doesn't give her a dowry. If a Thai woman marries a Western man, then two cultures are involved, and each culture should be respected. It seems that the OP doesn't even try to understand Western culture, but expects Western men to go along with Thai culture. No easy answers to this one, but I'm sure the practice will be gone in another generation. It's already started dying out. Despite what the OP says, many Thai families don't agree with this and don't do it. Many Thais I've talked to who have a more cosmopolitan outlook on life are slightly embarrassed that this still goes on in Thailand.

I met my future Thai wife in Hong Kong and before long, her closest friends were expat wives who accepted her very graciously. We were married in the USA although I do believe she told her parents on our first visit to the Isaan village that we were already married (several years before actual marriage). We never had a wedding ceremony in Thailand or discussed a dowry.

We did rebuild their home and paid off huge loans (B400,000) to relatives when a sister was in a 21 day coma and hospitalized with several surgeries from a terrible bus accident. We bought a car in our name and left it with them for 11 months a year. They never said thank you.

Some 15 years later during a "discussion" between my wife and her mother, the dowry issue came up. Sad....selfish on her mom's part. We did what we did out of love, not out of culture or rules. Oh, and we never spend more than a few weeks in Thailand until 16 years of marriage and could come here for longer periods in retirement. And no, we did not live in the village during these times.

Ask a Thai high school student if their mother ever told them she loved them. The answer 100% of the time for us is no.

Often it seems that parents look at children as livestock that can be bought and sold.

[atyclb]

If you give some money to the family of your wife to be , without getting it back, then that is sin sot.

If you give some money just for show and then get it back immediately after your wedding that is not sin sot.

Why do so many western guys believe that the Thai woman's tradition should completely override their own beliefs and traditions? If the Thai woman was so 100% traditional they would only be marrying a Thai bloke anyway.

Then there are the blokes who want to give sin sot for their wife who has been:

a. Previously married

b. Not married , but has kids.

In case, A, she would have received sin sot already the first time

In case 'B',would a Thai male pay sin sot?

if you are paying sin sot in either of those circumstances it is hardly traditional is it?

It does seem to me that many guys pay the money because they either think it guarantees the woman will stay with them or they fear the woman will leave them if they don't pay it.

Perhaps giving the sinsod is akin to "paying her to leave" ?