Can one tourist be taken to Thai court by another tourist?

[sunny1980]

It is a strange situation, but we have a dispute over intellectual property, and we both live in Thailand. However both our work permits have run out and we are on tourist visas. In fact, I am planning on returning to my home country in a month. Our dispute is over both the intellectual property but also regarding who broke our partnership agreement first. I had planned on taking legal action in our home country, however I have just learned that he has gone to a Thai lawyer and is planning on forcing me to stay in Thailand and settle the matter in the courts here.

My question is, is that even an option? We aren't residents nor do we own assets here. We should not be doing any type of business here at all, so is it possible to be taken to Thai court by another tourist? And can he legally detain me in any way?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

[btwretail]

Since you are officially both tourists - and do not own assets in this country, I can not see how any business disputes can be solved in Thailand.

What does it state in your business agreement? Was it a Thai-company before? If everything is unrelated to Thailand, then I can not see any problem.

Edited September 9, 2013 by btwretail

[Swiss1960]

All depends on your contract. Since you write that both of you had work permits, can we assume that the IP in question was developped during your work in Thailand, is it registered / bound to a Thai company?

Then yes, he could take you to court, if you violate the IP rights for what ever reason and it does not matter that you don't have WP anymore (as long as you both really don't work anymore)

And yes, unfortunately Thai courts CAN detain you in Thailand, confiscate your passport for disputes for as long as it takes to settle. Loads of such stories on here.

[sunny1980]

Sorry I wasn't clear...our previous work permits were for completely seperate companies...neither company is in any way involved in this dispute. Since I have since left my company, I was planning on going home. Our previous agreement was for a website, and it is an informal contract, no registration or anything in Thailand.

It has made no money, though we have both invested money in creating it.

Do you still think there is a way he can do this?

[btwretail]

Sorry I wasn't clear...our previous work permits were for completely seperate companies...neither company is in any way involved in this dispute. Since I have since left my company, I was planning on going home. Our previous agreement was for a website, and it is an informal contract, no registration or anything in Thailand.

It has made no money, though we have both invested money in creating it.

Do you still think there is a way he can do this?

If you do not have a contract and it is not related to a Thai-company, then I can not see that there should be any problem. Without a signed contract, you would even have a hard time fighting it out, in your own countries.

Edited September 9, 2013 by btwretail

[sunny1980]

Thank you both for the feedback! I think he is trying to prevent me from taking legal action for stealing my IP, by pre-emptively either 1) scare me/intimidate me or 2) force me into a deal I do not want.

I don't think he can do this either, considering the situation, but if anyone else knows differently, your input is much appreciated.

[klubex99]

First of all, I deal in websites and have done for over 16 years so I know what I am talking about here.

You state that you have both invested money in a website, that involves some form of concept that you both are arguing over the intellectual rights for.

Well. Here is the deal.

You can not own intellectual property on an internet concept. You can only enforce the rights to the material content on the website, such as text content, images, data etc... The actual concept (the intellectual part) is not really subject to any restrictions that can be enforced.

Secondly, as for the physical content, you would have to have it copyrighted, if not, then you really can't do anything about it. You also have to have it defined in your terms and conditions on the website that you expressly forbid the use of the content by any website user.

You can prevent use of a domain name and logo by having it trademarked.

As for can he keep you in Thailand.... No he can't. There may be cases where a civil dispute may force the courts to hold you here, but that would normally involve the person wishing to lease, owing a substantial amount of money to the partner, or company. If there is not huge company debt or anything, the court would not enforce it. But in this situation, the courts would not even bother with picking up the case.

If your partner has hired a Thai lawyer, then you can rest assured that the lawyer may try to get this to court, even though he knows that the courts won't act, he will make some money from your partner up to the point the court rejects the case.

Don't worry.... It is almost impossible for your partner to hold you in Thailand over some argument over web based intellectual property.

Incidentally..... who is the registered holder of the domain name and hosting account? In the world of the internet, whoever holds that is the outright owner of the entire thing.

[sunny1980]

I see what you're saying, about everything, including the IP/the hosting (he registered it though I paid for half of it, and the name was mine, etc) although I think I still have rights about my content, etc being used for a site without my permission to create profit. At least I certainly hope so! But that is all what I was planning on looking into in our home country. Before I had a chance to research my rights, I find out he is threatening to take me to court in Thailand!

I'm happy to hear that this is most likely an empty threat, and considering he is now in possession of my content, my money, my ideas, I certainly don't mind if he wastes his money trying to get a lawyer to take this to court.

Appreciate your help!

[klubex99]

I see what you're saying, about everything, including the IP/the hosting (he registered it though I paid for half of it, and the name was mine, etc) although I think I still have rights about my content, etc being used for a site without my permission to create profit. At least I certainly hope so! But that is all what I was planning on looking into in our home country. Before I had a chance to research my rights, I find out he is threatening to take me to court in Thailand!

I'm happy to hear that this is most likely an empty threat, and considering he is now in possession of my content, my money, my ideas, I certainly don't mind if he wastes his money trying to get a lawyer to take this to court.

Appreciate your help!

Is the domain name in your name or his?

Because if you let him register it on behalf of both of you, yet it is registered to his name only, then I am afraid, he owns it, and also the hosting account and the website content. There is nothing you can do. But if you have the domain name, or access to the domain registration account, then you can do something.

Edited September 9, 2013 by klubex99

[sunny1980]

Even if he admits/acknowledges that the content is mine, I paid half of the domain, etc etc? There is plenty of proof of the partnership agreement and he fully admits to the fact that it existed. Basically he just said one day that he was taking over. A lawyer in my home country said that there does not need to be a formal contract to prove a partnership, though it of course makes it much simpler.

I honestly don't know at this point in the situation and that's why I was planning on getting legal advice in my home country, though of course now I'll take your input under advisement and manage my expectations of any possible outcome.

[klubex99]

You said that the website made no money. This is very common, 99% of people who start up websites, make zilch and when they realize that it is very difficult to get traffic, and even harder to get them to part with any money.

But if your idea is worth fighting over, then why don't you just do it yourself under a different domain?

You can PM me the domain name, and I will look at the website, I may be able to get the site files for you, so you can host it on a different domain on a different server and set up in competition.

If you need any marketing or technical advice, I am happy to help.

[Soutpeel]

Easy answer to this question where was the partnership agreement signed ? in Thailand under thai law ?...if so then yes the partner could "do something" in Thailand , if partnership agreement was signed under another countries laws, then nothing to do with the thai legal system

[klubex99]

Easy answer to this question where was the partnership agreement signed ? in Thailand under thai law ?...if so then yes the partner could "do something" in Thailand , if partnership agreement was signed under another countries laws, then nothing to do with the thai legal system

The OP already said that there is no contract, but an 'informal agreement'. He also stated that the partner is 'taking over' (stealing OP's idea) and the money he stumped up.

So it confuses me when the partner is the one walking into a lawyer's office. What possible reason could the partner have for wanting to detain someone he has stolen from??

But anyway, like I said earlier. There is no intellectual property rights on a website concept.

[sunny1980]

Ah, my best explanation for his actions (trust me, I've been confused as well) is that he is trying to do a premptive strike because he is afraid I will sue him. I told him at the beginning that I would explore my legal options if he continued along this course of action.

His argument (I found out from a mutual friend; still waiting for a formal legal notification) is that I "broke the agreement" because I didn't work hard enough, so any actions he took were simply a reaction to that.

There are two sides to every story of course, \but my basic response is that he never expressed any concerns about my work ethic before the day he just yanked everything, including work he can't and hasn't denied is mine. So his actions clearly seem to be in bad faith whereas I was simply plugging along, in what I thought was a perfectly fine partnership.

@klubex99: Thanks for all the input and I will certainly take your offer under consideration!

[sunny1980]

To be fair, I was very very very angry when all this went down, so I think I really scared him when I threatened legal action (even while I was uncertain of my own abilitiy to see it through). I tried to settle with him but he said he'll pay me in the future once the site makes money. You can understand why I don't believe him.

I also said we could both just walk away if he will take down the site now, but he won't do that either because he said he needs the traffic and momentum we've gained to make money in the future.

Thus, we are at this point now...

[scorecard]

Since you are officially both tourists - and do not own assets in this country, I can not see how any business disputes can be solved in Thailand.

What does it state in your business agreement? Was it a Thai-company before? If everything is unrelated to Thailand, then I can not see any problem.

Are you a lawyer or do you have advanced specific knowledge of Thai law?

[scorecard]

Easy answer to this question where was the partnership agreement signed ? in Thailand under thai law ?...if so then yes the partner could "do something" in Thailand , if partnership agreement was signed under another countries laws, then nothing to do with the thai legal system

The OP already said that there is no contract, but an 'informal agreement'. He also stated that the partner is 'taking over' (stealing OP's idea) and the money he stumped up.

So it confuses me when the partner is the one walking into a lawyer's office. What possible reason could the partner have for wanting to detain someone he has stolen from??

But anyway, like I said earlier. There is no intellectual property rights on a website concept.

In most countries there is, in many subject areas, no need for a contract document. British and Australian law for example, which probably also means Canada, USA, NZ, and perhaps many Commonwealth countries.

In jurisdictions where this applies a verbal agreement can be binding in many subject areas.

Not sure if this is true in Thailand.

Edited September 9, 2013 by scorecard

[philw]

To answer the question, most certainly yes if there is an allegation of breaking the statutes in the criminal code.

[Beetlejuice]

To be fair, I was very very very angry when all this went down, so I think I really scared him when I threatened legal action (even while I was uncertain of my own abilitiy to see it through). I tried to settle with him but he said he'll pay me in the future once the site makes money. You can understand why I don't believe him.

I also said we could both just walk away if he will take down the site now, but he won't do that either because he said he needs the traffic and momentum we've gained to make money in the future.

Thus, we are at this point now...

So in fact this project was created for the purposes of becoming a profit making scene, a business.

Under Thai law, any foreign run online businesses, whether they make a profit or not, the owners and managers of the site are imposed to apply for work permits if the website is operated within Thailand, regardless of where in the world the server, domain or host is located or from where the profits come from.

This means that you and your so-called partner are considered as working illegally in Thailand if you are both on tourist visas and do not have the prescribed work permits and permissions to operate this online business in Thailand.

This maybe because you and the other guy after your previous legit business or employment for whatever reasons terminated had intentions of remaining in Thailand and operating the said online business for financial support purposes. Many farangs are doing this these days, in the hope that no one will notice, until it all goes pear shaped of course, which has happened in your case.

Why did you not on inception of deciding to start this said website, both apply for work permits, which would have given proof of your partnership and made the whole deal official under the law?

There is no way that either yourself or this other genius can take out legal action against each other for something that has been totally illegal from the start. If as you allege the said website is still up, and there is no proof that you had played any part in this, or your buddy has no proof that you had dealings in this illegal business, then why not visit a Thai lawyer and warn your ex-buddy that unless he closes down the said site forthwith, then you will report him for operating a business in Thailand illegally?

If yourself and the other genius both leave Thailand and he still continues to run the said site, than unless you can produce any type of documentation or proof that the material is yours or partly yours, than you are up the creek without a paddle, because all you have is a so-called gentlemens agreement based on trust and these sorts of verbal contracts are made at your own risk and discretion.

These are the facts and the answer to your question.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[klubex99]

Easy answer to this question where was the partnership agreement signed ? in Thailand under thai law ?...if so then yes the partner could "do something" in Thailand , if partnership agreement was signed under another countries laws, then nothing to do with the thai legal system

The OP already said that there is no contract, but an 'informal agreement'. He also stated that the partner is 'taking over' (stealing OP's idea) and the money he stumped up.

So it confuses me when the partner is the one walking into a lawyer's office. What possible reason could the partner have for wanting to detain someone he has stolen from??

But anyway, like I said earlier. There is no intellectual property rights on a website concept.

In most countries there is, in many subject areas, no need for a contract document. British and Australian law for example, which probably also means Canada, USA, NZ, and perhaps many Commonwealth countries.

In jurisdictions where this applies a verbal agreement can be binding in many subject areas.

Not sure if this is true in Thailand.

I already had this one over in the UK with an investments website, my partner actually held the funds in his name in e-currency accounts, while I held the domain registration and hosting account. After a dispute between us, he froze the financial assets, and retired himself from the business.

There was no written up agreement between us, and I called for advice from a lawyer, who told me that so long as the accounts were in his name, even though they passed through the website API they were his funds and unless there was a signed agreement, the funds were 100% his. This was over $300,000.

This for me started as a casual arrangement, and neither of us had any idea that the site would instantly boom the way it did. But it did, and as soon as he saw the money, he changed and of course because he had full focus on the cash.

Anyway, because the poop hit the fan, and I had zero protection by law, I was forced to use (let's say) a more vigilante approach. After a visit from some pretty horrible people to his home in Sheffield, he seemed to have a drastic change of heart and all funds were converted over to my possession within hours.

I took that site to over a million USD in 6 months. He ended up with nothing.

Sometimes, you have to use 'other' methods if you catch my drift.

[manarak]

To anyone wanting to go on a partnership:

Write a good agreement, including NCNDA clauses, don't forget to name a court in case of disagreements and define the property of each partner, duties of each partner and penalties in case a partner breaks the deal.

Personally, I would never go into a 50-50 deal, there needs to be one boss.

[GAZZPA]

Firstly, get advice from a lawyer. But this information might help you a little as i have some experience of breach of contract and legal action. Where the case is heard is dependent on the contract you have and where the jurisdiction lies. If for example you agreed the contract in HK then the case has jurisdiction in HK and therefore will be heard in HK. No one can force you to accept the case in Thai courts if the jurisdiction lies elsewhere.

Secondly, the only way they can legally hold you in the country is if the courts say you are not permitted to leave. This has to be a court ruling and they have to have very good reason, like for example you are accused of a crime. Your passport is a legal document and no one can hold you legally in any country unless you break the law and a court rules that you are not permitted to leave,, fact. If they anyone attempts to hold you outside of this then it is not legal..

As I said before, find a lawyer and get some advice,, hope this helps,, good luck

[Saradoc1972]

Two foreigners can sue each other in Thailand, it's not a question of either citizenship, immigration status and in some cases you wouldn't even have to be in the country.

I obviously don't know the Thai provisions on international law but it tends to be what the UN regulations propose states to adopt. Here it will, based on the rather sparse information the OP provided, not be a question of international law, as the subject clearly "touches" the Thai legal system, both parties having formed some impromptu partnership and worked on Thai soil. UN IP provisions might allow for another forum in another country, but Thailand kind of feels right here (don't ask me about IP).

A "contract" in the narrower meaning of the word, i.e. some piece of paper with a lot of provisions in legalese or else, will not be required for this. You have a contract when two or more parties agree on something, a written form or even legalization is only required where the law in question states so. When you march up to a street vendor and hand him/her 40 Baht in exchange for your bowl of Somtan, you have entered into a legal agreement, a very basic one.

The problem here is always, that those gentlemen agreements tend to lack provisions of any kind for the case of the mutual endeavour turning sour, and the biggest problem is proving what was the purpose of what ever you agreed on. Turkish immigrants in Germany do this all of the time and you get a major headache sitting with them in court when they then summon their multiple distant relatives as witnesses to prove s.th. to exactly the same authorities they wouldn't touch with a ten-feet-pole otherwise. (And they are all telling the naked truth which just happens to be somewhat subjective.)

You can have a partnership of sort when you embark on a trip to the country in a leased car among two people, I don't know what Thai law makes of this.

The whole case could, as was mentioned in a post above, go belly-up if both were working illegally. Thai law may not want to endorse that sort of behaviour by granting any party legal recourse (same as in some countries with under -the-table-work), but I wouldn't bet on this. The problem will be with immigration, and unless plaintiff has a lot to gain here that may prove to have been a rather bad idea.

Next problem will be the choice of forum and legal standing. Not being a resident in Thailand any more will in all likelyhood not be the point, there may be provisions for this. Plaintiff is normally supposed to submit his summons to defendant's home address, which may be out of the country. Unless this happens e.g. in the European Union or between states with mutually agreed procedures, this is a major undertaking and quite costly. Failing that, there might be the possibility of a default court where defendant has no address in the country, in Germany that would e.g. be Berlin-Tempelhof.

If a lawsuit is successfully delivered (even by public delivery), a defendant will likely have to be advised to take a stand as otherwise a binding ruling will result if he/she defaults, if the case has any merit under Thai law and is not dismissed outright. This would normally be binding only in Thailand then, but a verdict can then be submitted to defendant's home country to be legalized there, again in court (which is again a major undertaking and tricky if that other courts has problems with legal procedures abroad)

To the point, IF a summons is actually served, the OP should definitely seek legal advice which especially in the case of IP law could prove costly, for otherwise the other side is likely to get what he asks the court for. Whether the whole thing is worth that is best known to the parties.

[Gonzo the Face]

your question ...... can one tourist take another tourist to court

Answer is yes, but you cannot charge a transportation fee unless you have a work permit and taxi license.

[Saradoc1972]

Detaining somebody in the country is a rather rare option with civil law. In some cases (don't know about Thailand) this can be done, where the other party is suspected to move assets out of the country. Such rulings tend to be rather hard to come by, especially a personal arrest (i.e of the defendant himself) is only heard of in child support cases or where a party is sued for rendering a personal action, not just paying money.

Normally, legal systems say: we provide a forum, summons has be served one way or the other, defendant doesn't turn up having left the country or not, he's in default. Whether plaintiff can actually get money from the other party is not the problem of the court, especially abroad, and the same goes for a cease-and-desist order. The latter may not be held enforcible anywhere else for either legal or practical reasons.

[FritsSikkink]

Ah, my best explanation for his actions (trust me, I've been confused as well) is that he is trying to do a premptive strike because he is afraid I will sue him. I told him at the beginning that I would explore my legal options if he continued along this course of action.

His argument (I found out from a mutual friend; still waiting for a formal legal notification) is that I "broke the agreement" because I didn't work hard enough, so any actions he took were simply a reaction to that.

There are two sides to every story of course, \but my basic response is that he never expressed any concerns about my work ethic before the day he just yanked everything, including work he can't and hasn't denied is mine. So his actions clearly seem to be in bad faith whereas I was simply plugging along, in what I thought was a perfectly fine partnership.

@klubex99: Thanks for all the input and I will certainly take your offer under consideration!

It seems to me he is pretty stupid to go to court because in fact you both were working without a workpermit on this project.

[hellodolly]

Even if he admits/acknowledges that the content is mine, I paid half of the domain, etc etc? There is plenty of proof of the partnership agreement and he fully admits to the fact that it existed. Basically he just said one day that he was taking over. A lawyer in my home country said that there does not need to be a formal contract to prove a partnership, though it of course makes it much simpler.

I honestly don't know at this point in the situation and that's why I was planning on getting legal advice in my home country, though of course now I'll take your input under advisement and manage my expectations of any possible outcome

You still have not answered the question who's name is the domain in?

To be fair, I was very very very angry when all this went down, so I think I really scared him when I threatened legal action (even while I was uncertain of my own abilitiy to see it through). I tried to settle with him but he said he'll pay me in the future once the site makes money. You can understand why I don't believe him.

I also said we could both just walk away if he will take down the site now, but he won't do that either because he said he needs the traffic and momentum we've gained to make money in the future.

Thus, we are at this point now...

So in fact this project was created for the purposes of becoming a profit making scene, a business.

Under Thai law, any foreign run online businesses, whether they make a profit or not, the owners and managers of the site are imposed to apply for work permits if the website is operated within Thailand, regardless of where in the world the server, domain or host is located or from where the profits come from.

This means that you and your so-called partner are considered as working illegally in Thailand if you are both on tourist visas and do not have the prescribed work permits and permissions to operate this online business in Thailand.

This maybe because you and the other guy after your previous legit business or employment for whatever reasons terminated had intentions of remaining in Thailand and operating the said online business for financial support purposes. Many farangs are doing this these days, in the hope that no one will notice, until it all goes pear shaped of course, which has happened in your case.

Why did you not on inception of deciding to start this said website, both apply for work permits, which would have given proof of your partnership and made the whole deal official under the law?

There is no way that either yourself or this other genius can take out legal action against each other for something that has been totally illegal from the start. If as you allege the said website is still up, and there is no proof that you had played any part in this, or your buddy has no proof that you had dealings in this illegal business, then why not visit a Thai lawyer and warn your ex-buddy that unless he closes down the said site forthwith, then you will report him for operating a business in Thailand illegally?

If yourself and the other genius both leave Thailand and he still continues to run the said site, than unless you can produce any type of documentation or proof that the material is yours or partly yours, than you are up the creek without a paddle, because all you have is a so-called gentlemens agreement based on trust and these sorts of verbal contracts are made at your own risk and discretion.

These are the facts and the answer to your question.

I think you have really nailed it here They were both working on a project to make money here in Thailand with out a work permit to do it.

The rights and the wrongs will have to be fought over in a country where they are legally able to work on it. It would help a lot if the poster had come out and said who owns the domain not who paid fior it. The name on the piece of paper is the owner.

With the given attitude I see here I predict two Thai Lawyers making money and nothing changing.

[Soutpeel]

Ah, my best explanation for his actions (trust me, I've been confused as well) is that he is trying to do a premptive strike because he is afraid I will sue him. I told him at the beginning that I would explore my legal options if he continued along this course of action.

His argument (I found out from a mutual friend; still waiting for a formal legal notification) is that I "broke the agreement" because I didn't work hard enough, so any actions he took were simply a reaction to that.

There are two sides to every story of course, \but my basic response is that he never expressed any concerns about my work ethic before the day he just yanked everything, including work he can't and hasn't denied is mine. So his actions clearly seem to be in bad faith whereas I was simply plugging along, in what I thought was a perfectly fine partnership.

@klubex99: Thanks for all the input and I will certainly take your offer under consideration!

It seems to me he is pretty stupid to go to court because in fact you both were working without a workpermit on this project.

Why is this stupid ? The court, if it ever got there, which don't think will happen, will not give a toss about the WP aspect of this

[wolf5370]

As to holding people in the country - this has been done many times by hoteliers stopping non-paying tourists leaving - so with the right "fees" and the right telephone numbers I guess he could do it. The real question is how would this benefit him?

I had a similar thing happen - I was working on a web site application for a guy here (for payment) - he paid for the set up including domains etc, but I set them up under my company account (with GoDaddy) at the time. All was going well and dev was underway when the chap decided to change project completely (to agricultural investment in South Asia) and stopped paying me - there was no warning and as I was being paid in arrears was out of a pocket a couple of weeks money. I gave him time and sent him many warnings by email (he had left the country chasing his new dream) but nothing came from it (I was holding back the code, but this made little difference as he had changed his mind anyway), so I sold his domain name with remaining hosting period (and dedicated server rental) and deleted the code. Where it is hard to pin down assets, always have something that you can use to reimburse you and keep both eyes open at all times (trust nobody in love or business).

So, if you have the domain name in your name, sell it - he will then also lose the web site as the new owner will use different named servers pointing to a different host (i.e. the domain will no longer point to your content).

Incidentally, usually any created media (be it music, text, art or whatever) has implied copyright to the author at the point of creation - this is only changed by pre-existing contract (like a work contract for example) or by transferring those rights (selling them). However, you may need to prove that you were that author (him admitting it in some document - such as a text or email should do) would help.

ps: If you are not sure who the domain name owner is, post the domain name so we can look it up for you. Or just use Who Is (Google it) and do it yourself.

Edited September 10, 2013 by wolf5370

[sydneyjed]

You have recieved a lot of very good free info' and advice on here from other forum members that probably would have cost you more than a few expensive nights out in the scheme of things...

If you are attending the thaivisa Friday the 13th party at the CheckInn 99 later this week I'd be shouting a few beers to these guys if they turn up!