us social security survivor benefit for thai wife

[Pib]

. My wife, who is a nautralized American, will receive SS based off my SS benefit when she reaches 62 and it will not alter the amount I receive. When I die, she will receive the amount I now receive.

Thanks...I just learned something new and something I had missed in calculations for the wife's and my future SS benefits, specifically that her SS pension would end up being "adjusted upwards" upon my death (assuming I go before her) since my benefit will be higher than hers.

So just for example, lets say based on my year of birth my full retirement benefit if retiring at age 66 would have been $1000 but I instead retire early at 62 and therefore only get 75%/$750, and the wife's SS benefit which will be based on my record retires early at age 62 and using the SS math she will get 35% of my full $1000 or $350...like shown at this SSA webpage for my year group. She is also a naturalized U.S. citizen, did work while in the States, but didn't quite earn the 40 work credits needs plus her earnings were not that great...she will get more pension based on my work record/earnings.

Now I start off getting $750/month at age 62 and hopefully yearly COLAs will increase that as I get older. A few years later my wife turns 62, opts for early pension based on my earning record and gets $350/month along with the COLAs over the ensuring years. So between us we are getting $1100 in SS pensions. Now to simply the math lets say no COLAs occur and I croak at 90 and my $750/month stops arriving; instead of the wife having to live on only the $350/month she was getting, her pension will be adjusted up to what I was getting which was $750. Which means instead of the wife continuing on with only $350/month she will continue on with $750/month after my departure. That makes a big difference.

Did a little googling and I think this quote from a website puts its well:

Underlying a lot of the thinking about Social Security spousal benefits is the calculation of what will happen to a household's Social Security income when one spouse dies. When that happens, the surviving spouse is allowed to continue either their own benefit or, if it's higher, their spouse's benefit.

To supplement above, I would just like to include a couple of SSA web links which provides more info on above, which is basically survivors benefits "based on age" if they qualify for the benefits (i.e., residency or other special provisions). I expect in most cases the surviving spouse will be the wife whose SS benefits are based on the husband's SS record/higher earnings over the years. That's the way it will work for my wife since she didn't work long enough to build up 40 credits plus her earnings were not as high as mine.

Anyway, pay particular attention, repeat pay particular attention to the Notes on the links like were it says "...if the worker started receiving retirement benefits before his or her full retirement age, we cannot pay the full retirement age benefit amount on their record. The maximum survivors benefit is limited to what he or she would receive if they were still alive."

Or said another way, say you started drawing SS at 62, was getting $750/month when you croaked, the surviving spouse could get no more than that amount based on your record even through when you look at the two links I give you see that is some cases a surviving spouse could have possibly got more based on your work record "if you had not started drawing SS early...waited to your full retirement age to start drawing."

It's also good to know the spouse could start drawing SS survivors pension as early as age 60 "based on age" versus the typical 62 early retirement if you happen to croak before the spouse/you hadn't even started drawing SS yet.

See these two SSA webpages for more info...and be sure to read them slowly and be sure to read the notes.

Survivors Planner: How Much Would Your Survivors Receive?

Social Security Benefit Amounts For The Surviving Spouse By Year Of Birth

[Pib]

Embassy in Bangkok. Info about it here: http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service/federal-benefits-and-taxes.html

They call it a application form but it is just one page that you write your basic info on. IE: SSN, DOB, address, tel number and etc.

After sending form everything is done by the SSA office in Manila. I found that my case officer very very helpful and answered emails quickly when I had questions.

I sent the Embassy an email yesterday/Sunday asking for the form; they emailed it to me this morning...fast service. The form is attached below. You can email or fax the completed form back to the embassy for further processing.

SOCIAL SECURITY CLAIMANT INFORMATION SHEET (2).docx

[Ratsima]

I believe I have now responded to everyone who sent me a PM with an SS question. If I missed anyone, I apologize. Please remind me.

This has been enormously interesting and elucidating. I've enjoyed the opportunity to correspond with some of you.

There are many misconceptions about Social Security out there. As has been shown, there are many sources of accurate and timely information. Use them. Don't plan your life based on something you read on an Internet forum.

The current leader for fist prize in the total nonsense category is this statement:

"First of all, she will never get any SS if she does not work in the US and pay into the system, your SS is YOURS only."

Huh?

[JDGRUEN]

The Social Security Administration will issue a recipient a Debit Card sponsored by the U.S. Government via a Name Brand U.S. Bank. The ATM / Debit card will either be VISA or MasterCard. This Debit card is now mandatory for people who do not have a bank account.

This would seem to be a very good way to have near instant access to your monthly social security benefits. And you do not have any bank account tied to it.

********

Direct Deposit of Social Security Benefits. For U.S. Military Veterans I recommend you check out USAA and their banking system. It is totally online - no branch banks. Checking has zero to low fees, and ATM fees reimbursed. Domestic transfers of money to other accounts are no charge. They do have wire transfer fees but these may be able to be bypassed using ACH transfers - it depends.

ACH transfer (Automated Clearing House) is money transfer between correspondent banks. The ACH network is also used for direct deposit of payroll, S..S. Benefit payments, etc.

There is also an international ACH network. An international ACH fund transfer is called an IAT (International ACH Transfer). The significance of this is that an IAT is a different network than classic International Wire Transfer). It is possible that if USAA recognizes Bangkok Bank in NY as a correspondent bank - which they probably do - then a simple ACH transfer template could be set up. I am not sure if there is a fee for IATs but it could be from zero to lower than the $35.00 one pays for classic 'Wire Transfer'. You might want to call USAA and find out if this is possible.

USAA will set up two checking accounts (no fee for either). One can be self designated as the Primary Account and the other as a Travel or Limited account (this is just name labeling) . The Debit / ATM cards attached to these accounts will be functionally identical but with different account numbers of course/

Why do this ? The Primary checking / Debit Card account can hold the majority of your monthly and residual funds liquid funds.

The Travel/ Limited Checking / Debit Card account can only have what you transfer into it on a daily or weekly basis. This account would also be setup without automatic overdraft protection. Thus this Travel/Limited Checking / Debit Card account has very limited risk should the card be lost or stolen or a malfunctioning ATM machine come into play . You only risk losing the few hundred dollars in that particular account. The 'charging' transfers can easily be done securely online

************************************************

It has been noted here but it doesn't hurt to reiterate: U.S. Social Security benefits for a spouse or dependent children is Survivor Benefits only ... meaning you are deceased. Some of the post cause me to doubt that this is fully understood.

Someone mentioned VA benefits being transferred to a surviving spouse. Except for VA Disability Benefits, I do not know of any monetary benefits for veterans who are not on Disability with the VA. It would be great if there were. Military Service retirement is another matter. In both cases it would be wise for the couple to examine potential spousal survivor benefits by consulting with the appropriate agency.

It would seem to me if one has plenty of years of life left (based on good health at this time) then an easy way to establish the legitimacy of a marriage to a Thai citizen would be to visit the U.S. and get married in a simple civil ceremony. This would add a double layer of marriage certification.

[ubonjoe]

Embassy in Bangkok. Info about it here: http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service/federal-benefits-and-taxes.html

They call it a application form but it is just one page that you write your basic info on. IE: SSN, DOB, address, tel number and etc.

After sending form everything is done by the SSA office in Manila. I found that my case officer very very helpful and answered emails quickly when I had questions.

I sent the Embassy an email yesterday/Sunday asking for the form; they emailed it to me this morning...fast service. The form is attached below. You can email or fax the completed form back to the embassy for further processing.

Like I said not much info needed.

When you send it will only be a few days until you will get a call from Manila to set up another call and some questions to give you a heads up to other info you might need for the next call.

All very easy to do.

To me it was like a walk down the soi.

Edited September 16, 2013 by ubonjoe

[ubonjoe]

The Social Security Administration will issue a recipient a Debit Card sponsored by the U.S. Government via a Name Brand U.S. Bank. The ATM / Debit card will either be VISA or MasterCard.   This Debit card is now mandatory for people who do not have a bank account.

This would seem to be a very good way to have near instant access to your monthly social security benefits. And you do not have any bank account tied to it.

 

But check out the fees for foreign transactions. When I was looking at my options it was 3% for each transaction.

I have direct deposit to Bangkok bank. It works for me and only costs $5 plus 200 baht.

[smotherb]

Social Security Benefits

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Search Office of the Chief Actuary Benefits for Spouses

Eligibility requirements and benefit information

When a worker files for retirement benefits, the worker's spouse may be eligible for a benefit based on the worker's earnings. Another requirement is that the spouse must be at least age 62 or have a qualifying child in her/his care. By a qualifying child, we mean a child who is under age 16 or who receives Social Security disability benefits.

The spousal benefit can be as much as half of the worker's "primary insurance amount," depending on the spouse's age at retirement. If the spouse begins receiving benefits before "normal (or full) retirement age," the spouse will receive a reduced benefit. However, if a spouse is caring for a qualifying child, the spousal benefit is not reduced.

If a spouse is eligible for a retirement benefit based on his or her own earnings, and if that benefit is higher than the spousal benefit, then we pay the retirement benefit. Otherwise we pay the spousal benefit.

Compute the effect of early retirement for spouses who do not have a qualifying child in their care

If you enter your date of birth and the effective month for which you would like to begin receiving benefits, we will tell you the effect of early retirement on your spousal benefit as a percentage of the worker's primary insurance amount. (Please note that benefits are generally paid in the month following the effective month.)

Enter your date of birth (month/day/year format):

/ /

Enter the effective month and year for which you would like to begin receiving benefits:

/

(You must be at least age 62 to begin receiving benefits.)

You will reach normal retirement age in .
Effect of the retirement choice on your benefit:

Early retirement reduces benefits

A spouse can choose to retire as early as age 62, but doing so may result in a benefit as little as 32.5 percent of the worker's primary insurance amount. A spousal benefit is reduced 25/36 of one percent for each month before normal retirement age, up to 36 months. If the number of months exceeds 36, then the benefit is further reduced 5/12 of one percent per month.

This reduction factor is applied to the base spousal benefit, which is 50 percent of the worker's primary insurance amount. For example, if the worker's primary insurance amount is $1,600 and the worker's spouse chooses to begin receiving benefits 36 months before his or her normal retirement age, we first take 50 percent of $1,600 to get an $800 base spousal benefit. Then we compute the reduction factor, which is 36 times 25/36 of one percent, or 25 percent. Applying a 25 percent reduction to the $800 amount gives a spousal benefit of $600. Thus, in this case, the final spousal benefit is 37.5 percent of the primary insurance amount.

Please note there is no mention of the spouse having to be American and certasinly does not have to have contribbuted to Social Security

So, for you and your wife's sake, check the source--the SSA--these a TV posters are overly stuffed

[SeabagsFull]

1. Direct Deposit of Social Security Benefits. For U.S. Military Veterans I recommend you check out USAA and their banking system. It is totally online - no branch banks. Checking has zero to low fees, and ATM fees reimbursed. Domestic transfers of money to other accounts are no charge. They do have wire transfer fees but these may be able to be bypassed using ACH transfers - it depends.

2. It is possible that if USAA recognizes Bangkok Bank in NY as a correspondent bank - which they probably do - then a simple ACH transfer template could be set up. I am not sure if there is a fee for IATs but it could be from zero to lower than the $35.00 one pays for classic 'Wire Transfer'. You might want to call USAA and find out if this is possible.

3. USAA will set up two checking accounts (no fee for either). One can be self designated as the Primary Account and the other as a Travel or Limited account (this is just name labeling) . The Debit / ATM cards attached to these accounts will be functionally identical but with different account numbers of course. Why do this ? You only risk losing the few hundred dollars in that particular account. The 'charging' transfers can easily be done securely online

4. Someone mentioned VA benefits being transferred to a surviving spouse. Except for VA Disability Benefits, I do not know of any monetary benefits for veterans who are not on Disability with the VA. It would be great if there were. Military Service retirement is another matter. In both cases it would be wise for the couple to examine potential spousal survivor benefits by consulting with the appropriate agency.

5. It would seem to me if one has plenty of years of life left (based on good health at this time) then an easy way to establish the legitimacy of a marriage to a Thai citizen would be to visit the U.S. and get married in a simple civil ceremony. This would add a double layer of marriage certification.

To Jdgruen #94: Good information! Below are clarifications to five points you made (see my numbers in your piece above).

1. There are two USAA Federal Savings Banks, one in San Antonio TX & the other one in Phoenix AZ. However, deposits are normally made by mail, & up to ten ATM charges are refunded each month.

2. USAA does indeed recognize Bangkok Bank NY as a domestic bank. This is because Bangkok Bank NY has a US routing number: 026008691. USAA does not charge any fees for domestic transfers of < $5,000 done online; however, Bangkok Bank NY imposes a minimal fee, tiered to the amount transfered (I believe it's $5 for transfers of less than $2,000). This fee is deducted from the amount you transfer.

3. This is fine, but ... USAA guarantees ATM/Debit cards in the same way it does their master cards, with $0 liability to the customer. As of about two months ago or so, USAA has introduced another type of account called Secured Checking. You pay a $10 monthly fee & receive free access to credit reports, including immediate notification whenever credit is appiled for under your name.

4. VA Disability Benefits are transferable to the surviving spouse when the death results from a service-connected disability. There are income limits & other restrictions. VA Forms 21-534 & 21-535 apply. Military service retirement Survivor Benefits program must be applied for within one year of discharge; IMO, it is way too costly & could easily be replaced by a term policy or even putting the same money in T-bills or U.S. savings bonds.

5. No need to marry in the U.S. Thailand marriages are fully recognizable by the U.S. government (including the VA, SS, etc.). In most cases, however, you have to translate the certificate into English & then get the MOFA to bless it.

[Ratsima]

It has been noted here but it doesn't hurt to reiterate: U.S. Social Security benefits for a spouse or dependent children is Survivor Benefits only ... meaning you are deceased.

Completely and totally wrong.

BTW, although direct deposit is now mandatory, an exception is made for people living abroad. If you want, you can still get a paper check.

[JDGRUEN]

The Social Security Administration will issue a recipient a Debit Card sponsored by the U.S. Government via a Name Brand U.S. Bank. The ATM / Debit card will either be VISA or MasterCard. This Debit card is now mandatory for people who do not have a bank account.

This would seem to be a very good way to have near instant access to your monthly social security benefits. And you do not have any bank account tied to it.

But check out the fees for foreign transactions. When I was looking at my options it was 3% for each transaction.

I have direct deposit to Bangkok bank. It works for me and only costs $5 plus 200 baht.

What you state is good to know ... I was just supplying information and alternative options for people that might work for them ...

[JDGRUEN]

It has been noted here but it doesn't hurt to reiterate: U.S. Social Security benefits for a spouse or dependent children is Survivor Benefits only ... meaning you are deceased.

Completely and totally wrong.

BTW, although direct deposit is now mandatory, an exception is made for people living abroad. If you want, you can still get a paper check.

Since this is not a private situation that applies to me -- please tell me / us how this is wrong ? Educate us please.

I based my post on the debit card and mandatory direct deposit on what the S.S. A. sends to Americans in America --- it never occurred to me that any policy difference would be made to people overseas... since the target audience is the U.S. the S.S.A. does not make that caveat is not included in the notices or public service announcements . And - even with service charges the Debit card option may still be advantageous to some ...

Edited September 17, 2013 by JDGRUEN

[Ratsima]

It has been noted here but it doesn't hurt to reiterate: U.S. Social Security benefits for a spouse or dependent children is Survivor Benefits only ... meaning you are deceased.

Completely and totally wrong.

Since this is not a private situation that applies to me -- please tell me / us how this is wrong ?

Well, I could start out with personal experience. My mother receives benefits as a spouse on the account of my father. I guess I'll have to break the news that her husband has been dead for the last 13 years. Tough job, but someone has to do it.

Or, I could cite the Social Security Act, Section 202, which describes Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Benefit Payments. That section contains a subsection (202((1)) which discusses Wife's Insurance Benefits. That is, benefits for the wife of a living worker That section also contains subsection 202(e)(1) which discusses Widow's Insurance Benefits. That is, benefits for the spouse of a deceased worker.

Or, I could refer you to the Social Security Program Operations Manual (used by SSA staff to adjudicate applications for benefits).

See Chapter RS 00200.000 here: https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0300200000

That chapter contains Subchapter 00202.000 which discusses Spouse's Benefits and Subchapter RS 00207.000 which discusses Widow(er)'s Benefits.

Or, you could just go to SSA's web site which states, in pertinent part:

Even if you have never worked under Social Security, you may be able to get spouse’s retirement benefits if you are at least 62 years of age and your spouse or ex-spouse is receiving or eligible for retirement or disability benefits. You can also qualify for Medicare at age 65.

Is that enough?

[JDGRUEN]

@ratsima .... Your explanation about living spousal benefits is fine... It probably took care of many stay at home wives out of WWII years into the 50' and 60's - who became elderly into the 70's - 80's and 90's... I would hope the need for it phases out in these times as most women had some working years and S.S. contribution years outside the home... It is small wonder that the so called social security 'trust' fund is going bankrupt.

[ubonjoe]

It has been noted here but it doesn't hurt to reiterate: U.S. Social Security benefits for a spouse or dependent children is Survivor Benefits only ... meaning you are deceased.

Completely and totally wrong.

BTW, although direct deposit is now mandatory, an exception is made for people living abroad. If you want, you can still get a paper check.

I way told by my case officer in Manila that checks were no longer an option when I applied. And that was long before checks were done away with this past April.

I recall reading that after April people getting checks would be getting a debit card in the mail instead of a check.

Edited September 17, 2013 by ubonjoe

[Pib]

It has been noted here but it doesn't hurt to reiterate: U.S. Social Security benefits for a spouse or dependent children is Survivor Benefits only ... meaning you are deceased.

Completely and totally wrong.

BTW, although direct deposit is now mandatory, an exception is made for people living abroad. If you want, you can still get a paper check.

I way told by my case officer in Manila that checks were no longer an option when I applied. And that was long before checks were done away with this past April.

I recall reading that after April people getting checks would be getting a debit card in the mail instead of a check.

That's my understanding also. Here's the SSA link to a small booklet talking the debit card's and its associated fees...I also did a cut & paste from the booklet showing the fees, but be sure to look at the booklet for full details.

It appears for an ATM withdrawal outside the U.S. there would be a $3 flat fee plus a 3% currency conversion fee per withdrawal. Plus, I can't sure but maybe also another $0.90 fee if the ATM used is not part of card network used by the debit card...you might escape the $0.90 fee (maybe its part of the above $3 fee) on the first withdrawal per month but after that it appears that $0.90 fee would definitely apply...just ain't sure if it's also added to the two international ATM fees above.

And since the debit card is a MasterCard logo card if you withdraw from a Thai bank ATM there would be a Bt180 foreign card use fee...but you could avoid that fee by using an AEON ATM. And lets just say you wanted to withdraw your entire monthly payment just as soon as you get it each month, since for many the entire amount is going to be more than the maximum most/all ATMs in Thailand will dispense in one transaction, you may have to slide your card into the ATM a second time (or more) to withdrawal the remaining balance of the monthly payment incurring above mentioned fees a second time (or more).

Seems direct deposit to say Bangkok Bank or direct deposit to a U.S. bank followed by a fee/low cost ACH transfer to your Bangkok Bank account would be significantly cheaper than using the social security debit card outside of the U.S. Of course you could transfer to other Thai banks also, but it would cost more since I know of no other Thai banks which has ACH transfer capability; instead you have to use the pricey SWIFT transfer method.

Edit: Here's a link to the U.S. Treasury Dept saying a there is a waiver you can apply for to continue to receive your payment via check...it says exceptions will be allowed on rare circumstances like recipients living in remote areas which may not have sufficient banking infrastructure. Does Thailand qualify as a remote area without sufficient banking infrastructure? My guess would be no...but it's just a guess. A person would need to contact SSA or apply for the waiver to find out I guess. But go to the Treasury Dept link above for more info...and here's the link which pulls up the waiver request form directly. Personally, I would guess the Treasury Dept has already made a list of countries which it considers to have adequate banking structure...guess a person would just have to justify that although the country they live in does have adequate banking infrastructure its just your particular location in Thailand don't have adequate banking infrastructure....not an ATM for hundreds of miles....of course in Thailand it's hard to even walk a 100 yards without bumping into an ATM. Or on the form there is also the option to say you are mentally incompetent to manage a direct deposit account or debit card...since so many Thai's say farangs are crazy that justification just may work.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Pib

[mouse]

The Social Security Administration will issue a recipient a Debit Card sponsored by the U.S. Government via a Name Brand U.S. Bank. The ATM / Debit card will either be VISA or MasterCard. This Debit card is now mandatory for people who do not have a bank account.

This would seem to be a very good way to have near instant access to your monthly social security benefits. And you do not have any bank account tied to it.

********

Direct Deposit of Social Security Benefits. For U.S. Military Veterans I recommend you check out USAA and their banking system. It is totally online - no branch banks. Checking has zero to low fees, and ATM fees reimbursed. Domestic transfers of money to other accounts are no charge. They do have wire transfer fees but these may be able to be bypassed using ACH transfers - it depends.

ACH transfer (Automated Clearing House) is money transfer between correspondent banks. The ACH network is also used for direct deposit of payroll, S..S. Benefit payments, etc.

There is also an international ACH network. An international ACH fund transfer is called an IAT (International ACH Transfer). The significance of this is that an IAT is a different network than classic International Wire Transfer). It is possible that if USAA recognizes Bangkok Bank in NY as a correspondent bank - which they probably do - then a simple ACH transfer template could be set up. I am not sure if there is a fee for IATs but it could be from zero to lower than the $35.00 one pays for classic 'Wire Transfer'. You might want to call USAA and find out if this is possible.

USAA will set up two checking accounts (no fee for either). One can be self designated as the Primary Account and the other as a Travel or Limited account (this is just name labeling) . The Debit / ATM cards attached to these accounts will be functionally identical but with different account numbers of course/

Why do this ? The Primary checking / Debit Card account can hold the majority of your monthly and residual funds liquid funds.

The Travel/ Limited Checking / Debit Card account can only have what you transfer into it on a daily or weekly basis. This account would also be setup without automatic overdraft protection. Thus this Travel/Limited Checking / Debit Card account has very limited risk should the card be lost or stolen or a malfunctioning ATM machine come into play . You only risk losing the few hundred dollars in that particular account. The 'charging' transfers can easily be done securely online

************************************************

It has been noted here but it doesn't hurt to reiterate: U.S. Social Security benefits for a spouse or dependent children is Survivor Benefits only ... meaning you are deceased. Some of the post cause me to doubt that this is fully understood.

Someone mentioned VA benefits being transferred to a surviving spouse. Except for VA Disability Benefits, I do not know of any monetary benefits for veterans who are not on Disability with the VA. It would be great if there were. Military Service retirement is another matter. In both cases it would be wise for the couple to examine potential spousal survivor benefits by consulting with the appropriate agency.

It would seem to me if one has plenty of years of life left (based on good health at this time) then an easy way to establish the legitimacy of a marriage to a Thai citizen would be to visit the U.S. and get married in a simple civil ceremony. This would add a double layer of marriage certification.

Any Veteran or Widow not eligable for other VA benefits and without any or very low income can get the Survivors Pension of about $600 if the Veteran served in the U.S. military. Go to http://www.military.com/benefits/veteran-benefits/veterans-pensions.html for more information. Also see http://www.caring.com/articles/va-death-pension for Widows

[Ratsima]

SSA: Background and General Policy for Direct Deposit Outside the U.S.

Program Operations Manual System (POMS) GN 02402.201

Treasury has determined that foreign beneficiaries who refuse electronic payment are automatically exempt from Treasury’s electronic payment requirement. While we prefer to pay beneficiaries in foreign countries electronically, foreign beneficiaries do not have to request waiver if they wish to receive paper check.

Interviewers in claims-taking FBUs or border offices should ask if the claimant/beneficiary has a bank account in either the U.S. or an IDD country and should assume that the person will be paid by direct deposit if the answer is yes. If the answer is no, the requirement for direct deposit will automatically be waived.

[Pib]

SSA: Background and General Policy for Direct Deposit Outside the U.S.

Program Operations Manual System (POMS) GN 02402.201

Treasury has determined that foreign beneficiaries who refuse electronic payment are automatically exempt from Treasurys electronic payment requirement. While we prefer to pay beneficiaries in foreign countries electronically, foreign beneficiaries do not have to request waiver if they wish to receive paper check.[/size]

Interviewers in claims-taking FBUs or border offices should ask if the claimant/beneficiary has a bank account in either the U.S. or an IDD country and should assume that the person will be paid by direct deposit if the answer is yes. If the answer is no, the requirement for direct deposit will automatically be waived.[/size]

So much for my guessing.

[ubonjoe]

I cannot see any reason for anybody here preferring a check over direct deposit.

Getting a check cashed is not easy and it certainly not quick. It normally means depositing in an account and waiting for it to clear.

Especially with direct deposit to Bangkok bank available.

Edited September 17, 2013 by ubonjoe

[SeabagsFull]

It is small wonder that the so called social security 'trust' fund is going bankrupt.

To Jdgruen #103. The SS Trust Fund is running out of steam because Congress did not leave it alone to collect interest when the fund was fat. They continually, year after year, dipped into the excesses to pay for other budgetary needs. This is the reason most people (never mind what the Tea Partiers slant on this is) are adamant about protecting the fund at all cost, that we trusted the government to collect the money for us & our families when we grew old, that now Congress must bony up as promised.

Note that I am simply replying to your comment. I don't have the energy to turn this thread into a long, drawn-out battle on what, if anything, needs to be done with the SS Program.

[Ratsima]

I suggest that anyone actually interested in the status of Social Security financing read either the Trustee's annual report for 2013 or the summary which can be found here:

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/

It contains the following statement:

"Since the cash-flow deficit will be less than interest earnings through 2020, reserves of the combined trust funds measured in current dollars will continue to grow, but not by enough to prevent the ratio of reserves to one year’s projected cost (the combined trust fund ratio) from declining. (This ratio peaked in 2008, declined through 2012, and is expected to decline steadily in future years.) After 2020, Treasury will redeem trust fund asset reserves to the extent that program cost exceeds tax revenue and interest earnings until depletion of total trust fund reserves in 2033, the same year projected in last year’s Trustees Report."

SeabagsFull, you make the following assertion:

"The SS Trust Fund is running out of steam because Congress did not leave it alone to collect interest when the fund was fat. They continually, year after year, dipped into the excesses to pay for other budgetary needs."

Do you have any evidence at all that this is the case? If so, I'd certainly like to see it.

[Pib]

Just a case of Congress continually dipping into the SS Trust Fund to pay other bills/fund new programs and then leaving IOUs with the trust fund. Our elected representatives are good at spending money, but not nearly as good colleting money. They are also excellent can kickers. Spending gets many votes; collecting (taxes) get few votes.

[Ratsima]

Just a case of Congress continually dipping into the SS Trust Fund to pay other bills/fund new programs and then leaving IOUs with the trust fund. Our elected representatives are good at spending money, but not nearly as good colleting money. They are also excellent can kickers. Spending gets many votes; collecting (taxes) get few votes.

Do you have any idea of how the Social Security Trust Fund works?

[SeabagsFull]

SeabagsFull, you make the following assertion:

"The SS Trust Fund is running out of steam because Congress did not leave it alone to collect interest when the fund was fat. They continually, year after year, dipped into the excesses to pay for other budgetary needs."

Do you have any evidence at all that this is the case? If so, I'd certainly like to see it.

This is something everyone knows, as it's been reported in the news periodically ever since the 1988 (?) SS bailout.

Doing a quick Google search, I came across a Forbes article that specifically says that Congress spent the 2.6 trillion dollar fund for other, non-SS things. What I've heard is that they deposit IOUs with the fund, but Congressional Republicans have continually blocked repayment of those IOUs.

The Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2011/07/13/what-happened-to-the-2-6-trillion-social-security-trust-fund/. See last paragraph of page 1.

You're the expert, Ratsima, having worked in SS for 30 years. Please tell us what you know.

[Ratsima]

The Forbes "article" is actually an opinion piece which is pretty much totally wrong.

By law, the Social Security trust fund is invested in special, interest bearing US Treasury notes. This has been the case since Social Security was established back in the 1930s. No, the money is not deposited in bank accounts or kept under the Social Security commissioner's mattress. It is invested in accordance with law.

Social Security buys the notes, the money paid for the notes goes toward financing the operations of the US Government. In fact, this is how the US Government finances almost everything: by selling notes to investors. The Chinese government. Investment fund managers. Individuals. When the notes become due, Social Security reinvests them and is paid the interest. The US government has never failed to pay interest on notes purchased by Social Security. AFAIK, Social Security has never had to use the trust fund to pay benefits. There has always been enough income from Social Security taxes to pay current benefits and to put some aside in the trust fund.

As the Social Security Trustee's report says, the trust fund will continue to grow until about 2020 at which time Treasury will redeem trust fund assets which will be sufficient to pay full benefits until about 2033.

There is no way that Congress could get its hands on the trust fund because the trust fund is held almost entirely in US Treasury notes.

And, yes, this does mean that Social Security is loaning the trust fund to the US government. But, that's the way it has always been.

No one has ever taken money out of the trust fund and written a worthless IOU for that money. And, yes, the treasury notes are, in effect IOUs, but they are backed by the full faith and credit of the US Government. That's why, when times are tough, investors would-wide turn to US Treasury notes as a safe, if not particularly lucrative investment.

This system of investing the trust fund in Treasury notes has worked well for 80 years. There's never been a loss. There's never been a failure to pay interest.

One thing to keep in mind is that the projections made by the Trustees can change as economic and demographic conditions change. Before the financial crisis of 2007, the trust fund was in pretty good shape. It was then projected that the long term (30 year) shortfall was somewhat less than 1% of payroll. After the crisis Social Security tax revenue fell dramatically due to unemployment and a reduction in the payroll tax. The number of Baby Boomers retiring was higher than expected. As a result, the trust fund is in much worse shape and the long term shortfall is closer to 2.5% of payroll.

It is arguable that full economic recovery will do a great deal to "fix" long term financing problems. In other words, this may not be the time to do anything except wait. There's no reason to reduce benefits or raise taxes now just because we might, just might, have to do so in the future.

Bottom line? I'm optimistic. However, problems with the Medicare and Disability trust funds are much more severe and both perhaps need action in the near term.

[Pib]

Just a case of Congress continually dipping into the SS Trust Fund to pay other bills/fund new programs and then leaving IOUs with the trust fund. Our elected representatives are good at spending money, but not nearly as good colleting money. They are also excellent can kickers. Spending gets many votes; collecting (taxes) get few votes.

Do you have any idea of how the Social Security Trust Fund works?

Sure...our social security taxes are paid in...some of these taxes used to pay benefits...any excess left after paying the benefits then Social Security must buy U.S. Treasury bonds (IOUs from the U.S. Govt)...funds which flow back into the general treasury which Congress uses to pay bills/fund new programs...when SS needs more money they go back to the Treasury Dept to redeem some of the IOUs. Problem is can the Treasury repay the IOUs without issuing more Treasury bonds/IOUs to someone else? Almost like a Ponzi scheme. And like in most Ponzi schemes the IOUs/people demanding they be paid back catches up to the Ponzi scheme operator. But so many govt programs in many countries seem to have social programs that run that way....easier to keep them running longer when you can tax, print money, and/or change the scheme rules.

[Ratsima]

You may not like it, but that's the way it works. The reason investors worldwide flock to US Treasury notes is that they have always been a safe investment. Investors believe that they will continue to be a safe investment long into the future. I mean why else would people invest in something that has such a low rate of return?

Consider this. At the end of WWII the US had a huge debt. What happened to it?

[Pib]

You may not like it, but that's the way it works. The reason investors worldwide flock to US Treasury notes is that they have always been a safe investment. Investors believe that they will continue to be a safe investment long into the future. I mean why else would people invest in something that has such a low rate of return?

Consider this. At the end of WWII the US had a huge debt. What happened to it?

That WWII debt never really went away. The national debt did indeed peak during WWII and then kinda flat-lined until around 1980 when it started ramping up again and continues to ramp. Ramps can't continue forever. See below.

[Ratsima]

It makes absolutely no sense to compare debt using raw numbers. It only makes sense as a percentage of GDP (or potential GDP).

http://www.npr.org/news/graphics/2009/feb/deficit/

[Ratsima]

BTW, if you look at your chart along with my chart you should be able to come up with a one word answer as to what happened to the WWII debt.

Can you?