Bamboozled By Farang Developer

[huahinheartbreak]

Sounds like you should have found this website before you invested any money.

You have made many significant mistakes that a little research would have prevented.

The thing about dodgy builders is that they would not exist if there were no foolish customers about.

Did you ask the developer to show you previous satisfied customer and their properties?

And... more info.

When we bought in July, 2004, he was just getting started. He had one development underway and was starting to clear land for a second development. I think that part of his problem is that he got too greedy - saw all of the money to be made from expatriates, started more projects, won't delegate any authority and is basically in above his head, cutting corners, and denying that a lot of customers are just plain angry. Two years ago, he hadn't developed his grand empire yet and had things under a little more control...

[Ollie]

The developers and agents down HH way can be quite touchy of any criticism. Check some of the threads on the HH section of this forum.

I'm travelling there in less than 3 weeks and again loking at properties. Last time I was there I visited loads without an agent to get a feel to what was going on.

The area you describe is typically the area I have thought about purchasing in myself so would certainly appreciate being able to pm for the details?

I think there are good and bad everywhere and another forum covering that area has had lots of discussions about property and I recall one from a lady buying in Cha-am who suffered massive disappointment.

I hope you manage to get some recompense - the photos were shocking!

I hope this post/thread survives!!!

[huahinheartbreak]

A lot of you have sent me PM's asking for the name of the developer and the development. I'm reluctant to disclose it as long as there's the slightest hope we can settle this with some civility. Also, his legal advisor has threatened to charge us with "defamation of character" if we discuss this publicly. Lastly, in reading the rules of this forum, I'm not supposed to name names.

Does anybody know if truthfully telling the facts about our business dealings constitutes "defamation" under Thai law? That is, is it defamation to describe things like contractual details, milestones, and dates without calling people crooks, thieves, incompetents, etc.

Thanks for your feedback.

Hua Hin Heartbreak

[JimmyGreaves]

Out of interest how long have you been in dispute with him?

Have you now got a lawyer?

What will your new company achieve for you?

Exactly how many other people are in the same situation as you?

Has he completely stopped all work on his projects?

How many projects do you know he is running and approximately how many houses?

What is the current asking prices (Ball Park) of his builds?

What land size are you building on?

[Dragonman]

A lot of you have sent me PM's asking for the name of the developer and the development. I'm reluctant to disclose it as long as there's the slightest hope we can settle this with some civility. Also, his legal advisor has threatened to charge us with "defamation of character" if we discuss this publicly. Lastly, in reading the rules of this forum, I'm not supposed to name names.

Does anybody know if truthfully telling the facts about our business dealings constitutes "defamation" under Thai law? That is, is it defamation to describe things like contractual details, milestones, and dates without calling people crooks, thieves, incompetents, etc.

Thanks for your feedback.

Hua Hin Heartbreak

I have already commented on defamation laws, and stated my legal opinion. However, I would, and so should any good lawyer, not advise disclosure of detailed information during the progress of a Civil Action. The Action should remain untainted.

Get your Bangkok lawyer to check over the lease. Leasehold laws in Thailand and the States vary as between chalk and cheese. The lease may incude the land and building, and you have no rights of superficies.

[pedro01]

His legal advisor has threatened us with "defamation of character" if we say anything, though he just sent a letter to the other home buyers defaming us. This entire business is one huge nightmare, and we thought we were doing everything right two years ago...

Hua Hin Heartbreak

Defamation is a criminal offence in Thailand, if he really has done this - you could get your lawyer to start criminal proceedings...

[huahinheartbreak]

Out of interest how long have you been in dispute with him?

>>> seriously, about three weeks

Have you now got a lawyer?

>>> we've engaged a Hua Hin lawyer and are talking with a Bangkok lawyer

What will your new company achieve for you?

>>> it seems like it's good to have in case we have any future Thai property transactions. Probably nothing right now.

Exactly how many other people are in the same situation as you?

>>> wow. 15? 20? By same, I mean late on delivery, payments ahead of schedule, quality less than promised. As far as I know, we're the only on he has his legal advisor (NOT lawyer) threatening us with defamation, criminal action, etc. Everybody else is eerily quiet, IMHO hoping to get things done before something more drastic happens.

Has he completely stopped all work on his projects?

>>> nope. Just ours.

How many projects do you know he is running and approximately how many houses?

>>> five projects; twenty or thirty + houses

What is the current asking prices (Ball Park) of his builds?

>>> I'm not sure. I'm guessing 7M - 9M

What land size are you building on?

>>> 2200 sqm approx.

[Dragonman]

His legal advisor has threatened us with "defamation of character" if we say anything, though he just sent a letter to the other home buyers defaming us. This entire business is one huge nightmare, and we thought we were doing everything right two years ago...

Hua Hin Heartbreak

Defamation is a criminal offence in Thailand, if he really has done this - you could get your lawyer to start criminal proceedings...

Wouldn't advise getting him put in prison until the OP has had her money back.

[JimmyGreaves]

wow

2200 Sq Meters that is 1 3/4 Rai.

In Hua Hin a rai is selling for 4 Million Baht, so you are sitting on 7 million baht worth of land alone. You seriously need to get a lawyer on it fast and get the contract sorted.

[Dragonman]

wow

2200 Sq Meters that is 1 3/4 Rai.

In Hua Hin a rai is selling for 4 Million Baht, so you are sitting on 7 million baht worth of land alone. You seriously need to get a lawyer on it fast and get the contract sorted.

That's why the leasehold terms are important, because it looks like it is the owner who is sitting on the 7 million baht's worth of land.

[Burgernev]

HuaHinHeartBreak,

Sorry to hear about your plight. Is your building contract with the farang's development company or with a local Thai contractor ? That is how many development projects are set up here in Hua Hin.

Burger

Edited April 25, 2006 by Burgernev

[huahinheartbreak]

HuaHinHeartBreak,

Sorry to hear about your plight. Is your building contract with the farang's development company or with a local Thai contractor ? That is how many development projects are set up here in Hua Hin.

Burger

I'm not sure I understand your question. The contract is with the farang's development company which is a registered Thai company.

[huahinheartbreak]

His legal advisor has threatened us with "defamation of character" if we say anything, though he just sent a letter to the other home buyers defaming us. This entire business is one huge nightmare, and we thought we were doing everything right two years ago...

Hua Hin Heartbreak

Defamation is a criminal offence in Thailand, if he really has done this - you could get your lawyer to start criminal proceedings...

Wouldn't advise getting him put in prison until the OP has had her money back.

We're getting started with a Bangkok lawyer - made more difficult because we're in the US, not Thailand.

So, what exactly is "defamation?" If it is a fact that reflects negatively (e.g. the house is four months behind schedule and is maybe half finished), is that defamation? Or is that simply something that people can use to threaten and then let the arbitrators and courts figure it out?

And what is OP?

[RAZZELL]

His legal advisor has threatened us with "defamation of character" if we say anything, though he just sent a letter to the other home buyers defaming us. This entire business is one huge nightmare, and we thought we were doing everything right two years ago...

Hua Hin Heartbreak

Defamation is a criminal offence in Thailand, if he really has done this - you could get your lawyer to start criminal proceedings...

Wouldn't advise getting him put in prison until the OP has had her money back.

We're getting started with a Bangkok lawyer - made more difficult because we're in the US, not Thailand.

So, what exactly is "defamation?" If it is a fact that reflects negatively (e.g. the house is four months behind schedule and is maybe half finished), is that defamation? Or is that simply something that people can use to threaten and then let the arbitrators and courts figure it out?

And what is OP?

OP...is opening poster...or in plain English...the first person to start a discusion or thread on an internet forum...ie You...

[GuestHouse]

Heartbreak.

You have paid out 2.5 million for a build that when complete will value circa 7 million.

Go to the law firm I suggested (Tillek and Gibbons) and get advice on how to procede.

Do not mess around in HH, all you are doing is telegraphing your actions to him.

Do not play that influence game, calling in people who might be able to help - Go to the law, and go to the best lawyers you can afford.

Don't get involved into name calling, just get the lawyers on the case.

The amount of writing you have done here would, directed at the Lawyers I suggest, get you real advice on how to procede.

If there is any influence to bring, it is the influence of Thailand's most respected law firm, use them.

[LaoPo]

The amount of writing you have done here would, directed at the Lawyers I suggest, get you real advice on how to procede.

If there is any influence to bring, it is the influence of Thailand's most respected law firm, use them.

Well said GH!

Don't shoot any more bullets here; leave it to the experts: the Locals (BKK Lawyers).

LaoPo

[ray23]

Welcome to the club, we have a action filed agianst a builder here in Udon, Thai. This is what our experience has been thus far, Attorney took the case on a 20% contigency, filing fees for the court were 20k and addtional 5k to answer his cross complaint. Two hearings thus far, first just a preliminary, then it was scheduled for a settlement hearing at his request. This was done to extend time on the case as no offers were made by him at all. Just part of the game. Next hearing is schedlued in June. It is currently scheduled for four days. This guy most have a lot to say That will put us at a year and half, unless I miss guess and I hope I do I think we are looking at five years maybe or more before this is finished. The reality it would be about the same time frame in California.

We filed under breach of contract, his contract states he would finish the house with ex number of days or return the wifes deposit, he did neither and thats our entire case.

Of course there were many aspects about the construction that were wrong, but trying to find established and enforceable building standards here is difficult. Remember what the law is here is what you work with, no other countries laws are building standards apply. Building standards opens a huge Pandora's box, which is why we filed under the simpliest and easiest proven breach. By the way I owned a private investigtion business in the states, specializing in construction defect, it was easy there compared to here.

It would seem that we are better off then you, in that we have already purchased another house and are living here now. So for us it's just recovering money not trying to save our dream.

The other thing your going to hear all the time is that Thai courts will not back you up. I have contacted farrangs that did win thier cases in Thai courts, before I filed the action. Doesn't mean we are going to win, but thats what appeals courts are for. I will tell you about that in around four years.

Good luck, it won't be easy and it won't happen quickly, but the sooner you get started the sooner it will be finished.

Edited April 26, 2006 by ray23

[Dragonman]

Welcome to the club, we have a action filed agianst a builder here in Udon, Thai. This is what our experience has been thus far, Attorney took the case on a 20% contigency, filing fees for the court were 20k and addtional 5k to answer his cross complaint. Two hearings thus far, first just a preliminary, then it was scheduled for a settlement hearing at his request. This was done to extend time on the case as no offers were made by him at all. Just part of the game. Next hearing is schedlued in June. It is currently scheduled for four days. This guy most have a lot to say That will put us at a year and half, unless I miss guess and I hope I do I think we are looking at five years maybe or more before this is finished. The reality it would be about the same time frame in California.

We filed under breach of contract, his contract states he would finish the house with ex number of days or return the wifes deposit, he did neither and thats our entire case.

Of course there were many aspects about the construction that were wrong, but trying to find established and enforceable building standards here is difficult. Remember what the law is here is what you work with, no other countries laws are building standards apply. Building standards opens a huge Pandora's box, which is why we filed under the simpliest and easiest proven breach. By the way I owned a private investigtion business in the states, specializing in construction defect, it was easy there compared to here.

It would seem that we are better off then you, in that we have already purchased another house and are living here now. So for us it's just recovering money not trying to save our dream.

The other thing your going to hear all the time is that Thai courts will not back you up. I have contacted farrangs that did win thier cases in Thai courts, before I filed the action. Doesn't mean we are going to win, but thats what appeals courts are for. I will tell you about that in around four years.

Good luck, it won't be easy and it won't happen quickly, but the sooner you get started the sooner it will be finished.

Good example of Civil Case Thailand! Although I would be slightly more optimistic than you regarding Completion.

huahinheartbreak. Defamation is primarily used in Thailand to frighten people off People are normally scared when they are interviewed by police and may get 2 years. It also costs them more money for Thai lawyers. It has little to do with whether there is a case or not

[Sir Burr]

Huahinheartbreak,

You say that you are able to put the land in your name.

If you want your money back soonest:-

Form a company, transfer the land to company. Knock down the house and sell the land.

There are no winners in the Thai legal system, just the lawyers and you are looking at years before a settlement, and my feeling is that even if you win, your lawyer's fees will be greater than the settlement.

[Toni]

if you own the land already , i.e. have the title deed , then you could cut your losses by not paying him any more and when you are ready employ your own contractor to finish the building work.

you woukld be surprised at how inexpensive it would be , compared to what you are paying already.

please send me the name of the project (by thaivisa pm)

that's what I was thinking also, allthough I don't know the financial ins and outs. Depending of that I should finish the contact with him asap to avoid more losses because he will not to be able to solve the technical problems at all. Hire another one and accept your losses. In the mean time try to get as much money as possible out of him through legal chanals (if not too expensive!!).

[ray23]

I use my time estimate so I don't get disapointed

The cross complaint was I caused him to lose face

[Kf6vci]

I would go over the contract with a fine comb. I was suckered by a German contractor who talked and then put something else in the small print of the contract. In that case, he used inferior windows and only insulated a fraction of the house. ** Are there any terms? Full prepayments are risky - did you prepay the whole house? I would consider getting the tax authority involved to get him audited. He got paid - so what is the story?!? Hoping for the best will not lead to the completion of your house :--(

[huahinheartbreak]

Heartbreak.

You have paid out 2.5 million for a build that when complete will value circa 7 million.

Go to the law firm I suggested (Tillek and Gibbons) and get advice on how to procede.

Do not mess around in HH, all you are doing is telegraphing your actions to him.

Do not play that influence game, calling in people who might be able to help - Go to the law, and go to the best lawyers you can afford.

Don't get involved into name calling, just get the lawyers on the case.

The amount of writing you have done here would, directed at the Lawyers I suggest, get you real advice on how to procede.

If there is any influence to bring, it is the influence of Thailand's most respected law firm, use them.

Thanks for pointing us to Tilleke & Gibbins (http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/). We are now discussing with them how to proceed, sending them documents and correspondence, etc. As somebody else mentioned, we shouldn't discuss specifics while our filings are in process. As the OP (thanks for the def!), I'll try to keep this up to date as things evolve.

It's quite stressful for us, as I'm still working fulltime as a computer science professor and department chair in the U.S., but school's out in two weeks, and I'll have more time to focus. One thing I'm sure of, somewhere and sometime, he'll get his just rewards...

HHHB, the OP

[Mobi]

Thanks for pointing us to Tilleke & Gibbins (http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/). We are now discussing with them how to proceed, sending them documents and correspondence, etc. As somebody else mentioned, we shouldn't discuss specifics while our filings are in process. As the OP (thanks for the def!), I'll try to keep this up to date as things evolve.

It's quite stressful for us, as I'm still working fulltime as a computer science professor and department chair in the U.S., but school's out in two weeks, and I'll have more time to focus. One thing I'm sure of, somewhere and sometime, he'll get his just rewards...

HHHB, the OP

If its of any comfort to you, it is possible to win in the Thai courts. I won against a Thai, who cheated me out of my house, a couple of years ago. The court found in my favour and ordered the house to be sold by public auction and the proceeds handed over to me. Tha lawyer was on 10% contingency, which I was advised is fairly standard.

Incidentally, you may want to discuss with your lawyer the possibility of filing a police report and instituting criminal proceedings. The lawyer will advise if you have sufficient grounds. If the police accept the case, they can issue a warrant for the man's arrest and seize his passport. It would scare the shit out of him and may bring him to the negotiating table , and would also come in handy if you proceed with the civil case. (that's what i did)

You've got a good law firm, no doubt they will know best. Good luck.

[Master Chief]

Dear Huahinheartbreak

Seems to me that you should play along with the developer and get your house completed and sell it off fast to the next blue eyed buyer.

I have looked at your pictures and can just conlude that this is just the way they build and design houses in Thailand. It goes on all over Thailand.

First of all you say that the design is Thai/Bali style, what style is that? Seperate buildings from the main building containing bedrooms kitchen livingroom? Perimeted by a security wall?

So each building has its own key to lock up/down, smart, how many keys do you need to close your house.

Put the kids to bed and lock them in in their own bedroom building, or do you trust the security wall and the sturdy security guy outside at the gate? Each building has its own covering roof, no roof covering the paths to the next building? Do you bring a umbrella with you when you eed to go from the livingroom to your bedroom? If each building has no rain gutter can you imagen the pour of water that will come down.

Get rid of the house and design a good and useable home.

Looked at a house for 120 million bath in Phuket and they had a ringset full of keys to open and close down the house. I asked how the owners can walk in between the buildings without getting wet during rain, the sales officer told me that rich people do not come here when it is raining????????????????????????????????????????

Complete the house and sell it fast.

[taxexile]

I asked how the owners can walk in between the buildings without getting wet during rain, the sales officer told me that rich people do not come here when it is raining????????????????????????????????????????

thats pure poetry.

[Master Chief]

and she said it with a face that was looking down at the poor sucker and looser

[taxexile]

developers and their sales agents have to endure a lengthy period of gruellingly intense study before they are allowed out to freely fleece , embarrass and humiliate their hapless victims.

i think lawyers are required to attend the same school too.

[Master Chief]

Yes they must have been to same school already.

Previous threads have told the hapless victim to throw more money at them while saving her presueing dream. As we know that the value of the land and the house has multipled during the years it must be of a good point to get an agreement with the developer and tell him that he should finish the house with a reasonable cost. Then the owner can sell it and make a good profit, because it can be finished regardlees what the so good technician from Pattaya told them. Of course all done by someone else must be of bad quality, was that not what you hired him for? Would you have paid him him if he has said, njaa it is not so bad but we can fix it. Seems like surrounding houses have some problems but they are being finished. So up with the spirit and move on,,,,,,------ wistling tune of Life of Brian should be heard. Always look at the bright side of life,,,,,,,----

Understand that these things happens and one must stop and face the reality and do right. The hapless victim has got an experiance richter and knows that doing business in buying houses is tough. So go on and continiou to find your dream home, it is out there somewhere, belive me.

[taxexile]

well , a lot of the houses built are finished reasonably well , but the owner/purchaser needs to be on site everyday checking the work , or have someone who can be trusted doing the checking for you.

i think buying off plan and then leaving the country for a year whilst the house is being put up is courting disaster.

perhaps they should retire first and rent here first whilst the house is being built so they can oversee the build.

i have sympathy for the op , agents and the sales teams can be very persuasive , but in a lot of cases , behind that carapace of respectability lies a very unprofessional outfit. with very little comeback when things go awry.

i hope these lawyers can help him , usually , getting lawyers involved just throws more fuel on the fire.