When Saving Face is 100 % BS

[itchybum]

a country is made up of many single people.

[CWMcMurray]

I went to the private hospital here in Buriram last week and what a joke the Doctor was.. Ive got a swelling under my armpit and ive had it for 5 monthsso could be cancer who knows.. I go into his room to see him and take my shirt off.. He then tells me to go with the nurse to take blood and an xray.. Im thinking an xray will show fuc_k all i want an ultrasound.. so get my blood taken and an x ray.. wait 45 mins for the blood results and he tells me i have inflation of arm and breast tissue and my lungs look ok on the x ray.. Im thinking my fking lungs its my armpit you daft arse.. He then says my blood pressure is a little high.. I know this already <deleted> im not here for this.. I then get tablets.. <deleted> aspirin and inflammatory shit.. Hence why im off to bangkok hospital in korat tomorrow a full 2 hours away and i wont be leaving without a proper diagnosis this time..

May be a swollen lymph nodes

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/swollen-glands/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Totster]

Woooo hooooo.. another thread where we can all complain how stupid Thai's are from our elevated position as the world's master race...

totster

[kannot]

Woooo hooooo.. another thread where we can all complain how stupid Thai's are from our elevated position as the world's master race...

totster

and?? so what, seen more <deleted> ups here than anywhere else Ive been

[Totster]

Woooo hooooo.. another thread where we can all complain how stupid Thai's are from our elevated position as the world's master race...

totster

and?? so what, seen more <deleted> ups here than anywhere else Ive been

Well, that's obviously because you're better than everyone else here..

totster

[kannot]

Woooo hooooo.. another thread where we can all complain how stupid Thai's are from our elevated position as the world's master race...

totster

and?? so what, seen more <deleted> ups here than anywhere else Ive been

Well, that's obviously because you're better than everyone else here..

totster

Thanks I accept the compliment

[Gsxrnz]

It is possible to enlighten a Thai person about an error or omission without actually causing them (or you) to lose face or become embarrassed - normally resulting in the problem being solved or resolved with mutual happiness. You must give face to them in order for them to return it to you. Returning it to you means the problem is resolved with no need to admit or confess that a mistake was made in the first place, even though everybody knows that a mistake was made. It's all about the exposure!

Funnily enough, the same practice and method of approach is recommended in managing employees and raising children in the western world.

And I'm not endorsing the face aspect of the Thai culture, I'm just saying that it can be managed to one's advantage if you know the rules and that it's not really all that different to the reluctance of us in the west to admit our mistakes.

The genius of the Thai system is that giving Face allows the problem to be sorted rather than becoming a protracted territorial argument - that is in fact the whole point of Face!. If you take their face away, that's when we come unstuck.

As an example that I experienced: Taxi driver gets horribly lost in BKK, I recognise a landmark and say that I would have come this way also, very confusing, but what do you think if we try up that soi there?. He says ok, we try up there. Sure enough, there's the hotel. I congratulate him on his navigation skills, he knocks 20 baht off the meter rate, I give him a 20 baht tip. Happiness fulfilled.

[klubex99]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

Total rubbish.

Back in the West, see what big companies, doctors, dentists and hospitals do in order to cover up or gloss over a situation when they make errors.

Ever tried suing or lying blame for imcompetence or malpractice on a member of the medical profession in the UK or the United States?

Trying not to lose face is about trying not to lose credibility, nothing to do with oneupsmanship. In the West this maybe described as losing prestige or one`s pride, which amounts to the same thing.

No one likes to lose credibility, whatever nationality, wherever in the world.

I agree.

This losing face BS gets in the way of the positive development of Thais and Thailand.

They use it as a universal 'get out clause' for everything from justifying a lie to justifying a savage murder.

No matter where you are from, you don't like to be embarrassed by others for whatever reason and in whatever scenario.... Nobody likes to be made to look foolish. But that doesn't mean we are allowed to lie because of it, and have that accepted.

The fact you are caught out and made to look a bit of a burk because you messed up, then you should accept it. if you then try to fudge it over to look good again, you deserve to be exposed as a bigger burk in my opinion.

People should be made to stand up and be accountable when they mess up, how else can they develop?

My own story.

I was in Swampy airport last week, and when we checked in, (Thai Airways). The lady told us we had to go and collect the tickets from the TA ticket office first. I commented that this was unusual as it was an internet booking and therefor ticketless. But non-the less the wife went over while i watched the luggage.

We were a little later than we usually are with an hour left before the flight, but seeing as it was 9/11 I figured the airport would be pretty empty (which it was).

My wife returned after 15 minutes saying that they had not received the booking. But the money had gone out of my bank a week earlier and I had the email confirmation with all the booking details including booking number.

So anyway, I made my way over to the TA office and by this time was starting to lose patience...

The clerk at the ticket counter said they had not received any booking, and that we should take it up with our booking agent.. Hang on a moment.... 'OUR' booking agent??? No.... 'YOUR' booking agent. I exclaimed.

The office had say... 15 or so people in it. So I decided that if this face saving crap tends to work against us most of the time, I am damn well going to make it work in my favour this time. So I steadily started to get louder and more obnoxious and call the professionalism of the TA organization into question.

I hit her with questions like... "Within the great organization of Thai Airways, are you trying to tell me that there is no department which deals with outsourced booking agents?" The answer was no... A complete lie. So a little louder i said that was a lie and that I know for a fact they have a department that deals with that.

A little louder now (everyone can hear). You have my money, the flight is confirmed... if there was a breakdown between YOUR system and the system of YOUR booking agent, that is not MY responsibility.... IT's YOURS! Thai Airways chooses to use booking agents, it is their responsibility to make sure the system works.

Everyone in the office is looking now, they all have a handle on what is going on, and every time the girl tries to fob me off, I get more animated. Every bit of bullshit is countered with pure unarguable logic and thrown back at her. Including that the flight was full... another lie because check in was empty and so was the airport. The seats were incredibly cheap, another sign of an empty flight.

Anyway, I think not only the clerk lost a huge amount of face, but also the entire office and airline for that matter.

The manager came over, whispered something in Thai to the girl and then it was all change.. all of a sudden the flight is empty, and they will book us on and inform the agent to refund us, but we have to pay again there and then. It was the best compromise in the situation, and we also got an upgrade to business class on the outward flight.

When we boarded the flight, the plane was 40% full as I had suspected.

So there you go. You can use face to get what you need. But it wasn't easy and you have to dig your heels in.

My wife was so embarrassed by my behavior, but admitted that she was glad I did it. Because she could never have done that.

[Beetlejuice]

People with any real character do not mind admitting when wrong.

true but to actually attribute it to a race or nationality now that's just wrong.

Is it ?

Thanks for this reply.

2 short words and question mark, just about explains your level of intellect. Your credibility regarding anything has just flown out of the window.

I am hoping that you do not live in Thailand, because I find farangs with these sorts of attitudes rather scary and certainly of no benefits for the expats living here, especially those who have Thai wives and families.

[WitawatWatawit]

If I'm reading the OP's post right, the question of "face" actually did not come into play here. It was purely a cover up. A cover-up for their lack of knowledge. A cover up for the fact that there was no qualified doctor available at that particular time to direct them. You had inadequately trained staff trying to deal with a situation that they had no understanding of. Scrambling to try and present a professional attitude in the absence of a qualified professional to tell them how to be professional. Sheesh. I've been dealing with it since the social security system began 18 (?) years ago.

I don't have answers to this, so don't ask me. I deal with a certain medical situation that my SSS doctor refuses to even acknowledge exists, despite the 100% conclusive evidence from people who exceeded his capacity to understand logic when they graduated primary school. When I challenge him about his knowledge, he gets very shirty with me. Sadly, I'm stuck with him under the SSS. I'm not sure if that is face, as such, because our consultations are private, or simply the fact that he is defending his ignorance.

[cpofc]

I can't speak for other places in the world but I reckon it is an international thing. Back in Oz I have a mate who is a bit if a 'high powered' businessman, a few years older than me, last few years have seen him have about 3 cancers ops, and a heart attack, with about 3 heart Ops for that. (the last just a couple of weeks ago) The stories he tells me about the hospitals, and the doctor who stuffed up the first operation, culminating in another 2.

His biggest complaint about Australia today. No one does their bloody job anymore! Go to an Australian BBQ or get together and mention the public service. If you could start a topic here - Horror Stories from Farang Hospitals there would be no end of anecdotes. I am sure most people can tell you a horror story. I know I can. Get an Australian doctor to admit he made a mistake.

Back in Aust I was terrible. I would go completely beserk when the bank stuffed up, or some government department or utility screwed me over. They will never admit they are wrong either. Dealing with mistakes and peoples lack of competence is part of daily life where I come from, it is one drama after another. The OP is right about the frustration. Dealing with incompetence in a foreign language and culture makes it even more difficult. I am Ex career military and I find incompetence, laziness and slackness extremely hard to deal with, it is in my DNA.

I am not sticking up for the Thais either, they make plenty of mistakes. I've had Thai Staff work for me. But it is not just a 'Thai' thing . The Thai 'face' aspect, is for them, just a different way of dealing with it. As opposed to the Western method of doing your block and venting your spleen and wanting to cause someone grievous bodily harm. All these years and I am still in training. Still learning how to deal with it the Thai way. it isn't easy. I am getting better though.

What is easy is to blame it on Thais and Thailand, especailly when we are angry. But really I think we all know Thailand is not unique in this department. How many living here packed up and pissed off to Thailand because this is exactly the sort of crap you left home to get away from.

I wish you all the best OP. Deep breaths, deep breaths.

[David48]

Agree the way op and some members posting here it's as if farang don't like to save face and openly admit mistakes while east asians and asians are all dishonest face savers. Lost count of the number of times farang get extremely defensive when any small comment is made about them on various sites like youtube and the like.

People with any real character do not mind admitting when wrong.

+1

itchybum, have ran out of likes.

"People with any real character do not mind admitting when wrong" ...

I'm lucky that the Lady agrees with the concept ... just that she has informed me that she hasn't actually done anything wrong yet ...

.

[Thai at Heart]

10 years ago, woke up in excruciating pain under my right shoulder blade.

Went to private hospital. Doctor took one look at the whites of my eyes, said " have hepatitis, go home".

Oh thanks I thought. Called a school friend who was an internal surgeon. He laughed, told me to go back and demand an ultra sound on my gall bladder.

1 hour later, one embarrassed doctor now proclaims "hmmmm, gall stones, geang maak. Loo tamai?"

There are thousands of bad doctors in the world, it's just that an awful lot of them are in Thailand.

Another good one was my wife being told that she needed 4 teeth pulled out and crowns put in.

I got on my mobile and passed the phone to the dentist. He very confused asked " who is this?"

I said my father. Even more confused he asked why? I said he's a retired dentist, explain to him if pulling out 4 teeth is the right way forward for a toothache under a filling.....

Edited September 23, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[MAJIC]

Where else in the world would this nonsense face issue raise it's ugly head? apart from Asia? an excuse to not accept your own actions or mistakes,and duly apologise,but merely continue with outmoded childish beliefs that,you can never be at fault,absolutely ridiculous,!

[Boon Mee]

Woooo hooooo.. another thread where we can all complain how stupid Thai's are from our elevated position as the world's master race...

totster

The Thai Society-bashers are generally those who haven't been in-country very long or else live in some cloistered farang compound isolated from the general population.

It is what it is, man and Thais aren't gonna change to meet some farang's ideal of how they should act and behave.

Just sayin' like...

[Ace of Pop]

I Know ive lived of My Daughters Earnings as a Bargirl for years,but if we dont get Sin Sod i loose face. Well Dear Issan Father, most would say Pimping caused that. . Yet Dumb Ferangs still fall for it.

[MAJIC]

People with any real character do not mind admitting when wrong.

true but to actually attribute it to a race or nationality now that's just wrong.

The Poster didn't attribute it to any race!

[David48]

Woooo hooooo.. another thread where we can all complain how stupid Thai's are from our elevated position as the world's master race...

totster

The Thai Society-bashers are generally those who haven't been in-country very long or else live in some cloistered farang compound isolated from the general population.

It is what it is, man and Thais aren't gonna change to meet some farang's ideal of how they should act and behave.

Just sayin' like...

... and I hope that neither of those two comments are directed my way.

.

[David48]

Since you haven't quoted anyone.

What does your comment have to do with my OP?

I Know ive lived of My Daughters Earnings as a Bargirl for years,but if we dont get Sin Sod i loose face. Well Dear Issan Father, most would say Pimping caused that. . Yet Dumb Ferangs still fall for it.

.

[MAJIC]

It is possible to enlighten a Thai person about an error or omission without actually causing them (or you) to lose face or become embarrassed - normally resulting in the problem being solved or resolved with mutual happiness. You must give face to them in order for them to return it to you. Returning it to you means the problem is resolved with no need to admit or confess that a mistake was made in the first place, even though everybody knows that a mistake was made. It's all about the exposure!

Funnily enough, the same practice and method of approach is recommended in managing employees and raising children in the western world.

And I'm not endorsing the face aspect of the Thai culture, I'm just saying that it can be managed to one's advantage if you know the rules and that it's not really all that different to the reluctance of us in the west to admit our mistakes.

The genius of the Thai system is that giving Face allows the problem to be sorted rather than becoming a protracted territorial argument - that is in fact the whole point of Face!. If you take their face away, that's when we come unstuck.

As an example that I experienced: Taxi driver gets horribly lost in BKK, I recognise a landmark and say that I would have come this way also, very confusing, but what do you think if we try up that soi there?. He says ok, we try up there. Sure enough, there's the hotel. I congratulate him on his navigation skills, he knocks 20 baht off the meter rate, I give him a 20 baht tip. Happiness fulfilled.

I'm not trying to be opposite to you! but I once had a Taxi from Bangkok to a Suvarnibhum Hotel, well i had never been there before,and had no idea how big the area around the Airport was,neither did our driver,and he was lost.I had to give this guy 10/10 for trying,he get out 3 times and asked the way to xxx Hotel.

After 30 minutes searching,he got us there,and I gave him a tip. Now that's my idea of a face saver,the man deserved it.

[Boon Mee]

Woooo hooooo.. another thread where we can all complain how stupid Thai's are from our elevated position as the world's master race...

totster

The Thai Society-bashers are generally those who haven't been in-country very long or else live in some cloistered farang compound isolated from the general population.

It is what it is, man and Thais aren't gonna change to meet some farang's ideal of how they should act and behave.

Just sayin' like...

... and I hope that neither of those two comments are directed my way.

.

No way, David.

Just adding my 2 cents worth re farang's attitudes on the perceived inadequacies of our host countries population.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Rooo

[canman]

Woooo hooooo.. another thread where we can all complain how stupid Thai's are from our elevated position as the world's master race...

totster

Masters of the universe mate, lets get it correct!

[enyaw]

It seems like both the clinic and the patients are a bit confused in this story. The clinic were clearly giving a glucose tolerance test.

<snip>

I think you can't see the Forest from the trees

The story isn't about a Blood Sugar test ... it's about Saving Face ... and when a lie or a mistake is presented as a truth or normal practise to Save Face.

Thank for your opportunity to give an example of what was actually done.

From the Mayo clinic ...

Initially the Lady had the ...

Initial glucose challenge test. You'll begin the glucose challenge test by drinking a syrupy glucose solution. One hour later, you'll have a blood test to measure your blood sugar level. A blood sugar level below 130 to 140 mg/dL or 7.2 to 7.8 mmol/L, is usually considered normal on a glucose challenge test, although this may vary at specific clinics or labs. If your blood sugar level is higher than normal, it only means you have a higher risk of gestational diabetes. Your doctor will order a follow-up test to determine if you have gestational diabetes.

It was at an elevated level so we were there for the follow-up test ...

Follow-up glucose tolerance testing. For the follow-up test, you'll be asked to fast overnight and then have your fasting blood sugar level measured. Then you'll drink another sweet solution — this one containing a higher concentration of glucose — and your blood sugar level will be checked every hour for a period of three hours. If at least two of the blood sugar readings are higher than the normal values established for each of the three hours of the test, you'll be diagnosed with gestational diabetes.

Same, but different from your example.

But to be honest ... if this OP was about the various Blood Sugar tests available, I would have posted in the Medical Forum.

Can't you just accept you may have been wrong to cause such a fuss and then to suggest your post was more to do with "Thais saving face" kind of a paradox you not think?

[David48]

Can't you just accept you may have been wrong to cause such a fuss and then to suggest your post was more to do with "Thais saving face" kind of a paradox you not think?

I would be curious to know, from your perspective how I was 'wrong'?

Was I wrong culturally?

Was I wrong for not accepting competent service from a Private hospital?

Was I wrong medically?

We asked the gf's Thai Mother who is a Diabetic and she would have accepted that method of testing?

I would like your opinion ...

.

[jackr]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake, but would rather kill their entire family than admit they have made a mistake.

I posit that that is because you are of the farang variety and therefore do not count.

[Boon Mee]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake, but would rather kill their entire family than admit they have made a mistake.

I posit that that is because you are of the farang variety and therefore do not count.

Depends on how much money you have and what kind of car you drive.

[HeijoshinCool]

People with any real character do not mind admitting when wrong.

true but to actually attribute it to a race or nationality now that's just wrong.

Amazing!

Only one sentence and you somehow managed to read between the lines.

[seajae]

Admittedly they should have measured her BG before they gave her the glucose but if she's taking a 2 hour oral glucose tolerance test it's the result at the end of 2 hours that really matters rather than that at the beginning..

as a diabetic I am going to flame you on this. They need to have the first test to get your base level otherwise they have no bloody idea of what the variances are, obviously you have no bloody idea if you are coming up with shit like this. How in the hell do they know what her levels are doing if they do not have a baseline to work off, it doesnt matter what her final test shows it has to be compared to the original tbaseline to see if she does have a problem. I have had several of these tests over the years, the first test sets you baseline, the second test shows how much it increases with the set amount of sugars and the last one shows how much it reduces/quickly reduces back towards your baseline. If your baseline is say 7.1 and it goes to 15 after the first test then back to only 11 in the third they have no possible idea what figures to look at as they do not know where the levels started, at least try to be a bit realistic about this or stop trying to defend the idiots that did it.

[enyaw]

Can't you just accept you may have been wrong to cause such a fuss and then to suggest your post was more to do with "Thais saving face" kind of a paradox you not think?

I would be curious to know, from your perspective how I was 'wrong'?

Was I wrong culturally?

Was I wrong for not accepting competent service from a Private hospital?

Was I wrong medically?

We asked the gf's Thai Mother who is a Diabetic and she would have accepted that method of testing?

I would like your opinion ...

.

well you've lost me but all 4 I'll guess.

[NoshowJones]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

Total rubbish.

Back in the West, see what big companies, doctors, dentists and hospitals do in order to cover up or gloss over a situation when they make errors.

Ever tried suing or lying blame for imcompetence or malpractice on a member of the medical profession in the UK or the United States?

Trying not to lose face is about trying not to lose credibility, nothing to do with oneupsmanship. In the West this maybe described as losing prestige or one`s pride, which amounts to the same thing.

No one likes to lose credibility, whatever nationality, wherever in the world.