Kenyan security forces end 4-day-long siege at Nairobi mall

[News_Editor]

NAIROBI, KENYA (BNO NEWS) -- Kenyan security forces have brought to an end the four-day-long siege of an upscale shopping mall in the capital Nairobi, President Uhuru Kenyatta announced Tuesday in an address to the nation, declaring three days of mourning and vowing to bring those responsible to justice.

The siege began at around noon on Saturday when more than a dozen suspected al-Shabaab gunmen stormed the popular Westgate shopping mall, opening fire with assault rifles and throwing grenades at terrified shoppers. An unknown number of people were held hostage as the gunmen engaged in gun battles with security forces.

"The operation is now over," Kenyatta announced on Tuesday evening as he began his address to the nation. "We confronted this evil without flinching, contained our deep grief and pain, and conquered it. As a nation, our head is bloodied, but unbowed. The criminals found us unafraid, as we ever shall be. We cannot be conquered."

Kenyatta said 67 people, including 61 civilians and six members of the security forces, died during the four-day-long siege but indicated that the death toll was likely to increase. "Towards the tail end of the operation, three floors of the Westgate Mall collapsed and there are several bodies still trapped in the rubble, including the terrorists," he said. 175 others were injured.

Five of the attackers were shot dead during the operation to clear the shopping mall, while eleven others - of whom only one is believed to have been arrested at the scene - were taken into custody in connection with the attack. The nationalities of the attackers are not yet known, despite initial intelligence reports that a British woman and several Americans were involved in the siege.

"I promised that we shall have full accountability for the mindless destruction, deaths, pain, loss and suffering we have all undergone as a national family," Kenyatta said, describing the attackers as "craven wretches and lowly cowards." He added: "These cowards will meet justice, as will their accomplices and patrons, wherever they are."

The Kenyan leader, who assured the affected families that his government will provide the necessary support to enable them cope with their loss, declared three days of national mourning starting on Wednesday in honor of the victims. "Official flags will fly at half-mast throughout the country," he said.

Cabinet Secretary Francis Kimemia said Kenyatta summoned a special cabinet meeting and National Security Council meeting for Wednesday to evaluate the situation and formulate a way forward. He said the scene at Westgate has been handed over to begin forensic analysis, with a priority on debris clearance to facilitate the recovery of bodies.

It remained unclear on Tuesday how many bodies could still be inside the shopping mall, and authorities have refused to say how many hostages were rescued during the course of the operation. Of the 61 civilians who died during the siege, at least 12 were foreigners, including six Britons and Ghanaian poet and diplomat Kofi Awoonor. Kenyatta's nephew Mbugua Mwangi and his fiancée were also killed.

(Copyright 2013 by BNO News B.V. All rights reserved. Info: [email protected].)

[uptheos]

The BBC was criticized yesterday for not describing the armed jihadists behind the Kenya shopping centre siege as terrorists.

The corporation’s journalists have avoided using the words ‘terrorist’ and ‘terrorism’ in reports.

Instead, they described the terrorists as ‘Islamist militants’ or ‘suspected Al Shabaab militants’ - and only used the word terrorist in when quoting someone else.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2430714/BBC-guidance-preventing-reporters-using-word-terrorist-covering-Nairobi-massacre.html
.

[iancnx]

This does not excuse the terrible murders in Narobi, but rather than make childish comments, how about trying to understand the rise of Islamic extremism in Somali. A good article outlining the circumstance and contributing factors, with yet again Western and Saudi interference.

"a united, stable and Islamic country was the last thing Ethiopia wanted on its doorstep. So it invaded in the name of driving out fundamentalism, persuading Britain and the United States to back their key ally in the region. The incursion was disastrous, with Somalia spiralling back out of control, while grotesque human rights abuses boosted the militant cause. The biggest beneficiary was the security wing of the courts movement, al-Shabaab, which soon had control of much of Mogadishu and great swathes of the country"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/kenya-shopping-mall-attack-the-west-must-act-judiciously-over-somalia-if-these-horrors-are-to-end-8835268.html

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and neither does that report in the independent. To understand Islamic Fundamentalism you need study from a global perspective. If you want to understand a little of what is happening in Somalia start here:

http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/regions/africa/horn-of-africa/somalia/116-can-the-somali-crisis-be-contained.aspx

This report is from 2006. There are numerous other reports written up to the current date which will give you a much deeper insight into Al-Shabaab; who they are, where do they come from, and what do they want.

The dynamics in Somalia are far wider than Ethiopia, Kenya, the Middle East or the West. You need to understand the Clan structure in the whole of the Horn of Africa before you can even start to have an understanding about how Al-Shabaab have infiltrated the country; their leadership is not originally Somali.

The map below gives a flavour of the clan structure across the region. The important thing to understand is there are hundreds of sub-clans within each clan all ruled by different leaders. The clan 'boundaries' have no recognition of international borders.

Nairobi has been a target for Al-Shabaab for as long as I can remember back to 2006. The recent bun fights in Juba has made it more likely, or should I say more certain, and no one should have been surprised

I should point out an updated map would have a concentration of red (al shebaab) against the Kenyan border now and throughout Juba.

[hanno]

Kenya still has capital punishment; I do hope they use it here.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted.

[Mosha]

The BBC was criticized yesterday for not describing the armed jihadists behind the Kenya shopping centre siege as terrorists.

The corporation’s journalists have avoided using the words ‘terrorist’ and ‘terrorism’ in reports.

Instead, they described the terrorists as ‘Islamist militants’ or ‘suspected Al Shabaab militants’ - and only used the word terrorist in when quoting someone else.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2430714/BBC-guidance-preventing-reporters-using-word-terrorist-covering-Nairobi-massacre.html

.

PC gone nuts.

[simple1]

This does not excuse the terrible murders in Narobi, but rather than make childish comments, how about trying to understand the rise of Islamic extremism in Somali. A good article outlining the circumstance and contributing factors, with yet again Western and Saudi interference.

"a united, stable and Islamic country was the last thing Ethiopia wanted on its doorstep. So it invaded in the name of driving out fundamentalism, persuading Britain and the United States to back their key ally in the region. The incursion was disastrous, with Somalia spiralling back out of control, while grotesque human rights abuses boosted the militant cause. The biggest beneficiary was the security wing of the courts movement, al-Shabaab, which soon had control of much of Mogadishu and great swathes of the country"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/kenya-shopping-mall-attack-the-west-must-act-judiciously-over-somalia-if-these-horrors-are-to-end-8835268.html

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and neither does that report in the independent. To understand Islamic Fundamentalism you need study from a global perspective. If you want to understand a little of what is happening in Somalia start here:

http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/regions/africa/horn-of-africa/somalia/116-can-the-somali-crisis-be-contained.aspx

This report is from 2006. There are numerous other reports written up to the current date which will give you a much deeper insight into Al-Shabaab; who they are, where do they come from, and what do they want.

The dynamics in Somalia are far wider than Ethiopia, Kenya, the Middle East or the West. You need to understand the Clan structure in the whole of the Horn of Africa before you can even start to have an understanding about how Al-Shabaab have infiltrated the country; their leadership is not originally Somali.

The map below gives a flavour of the clan structure across the region. The important thing to understand is there are hundreds of sub-clans within each clan all ruled by different leaders. The clan 'boundaries' have no recognition of international borders.

Nairobi has been a target for Al-Shabaab for as long as I can remember back to 2006. The recent bun fights in Juba has made it more likely, or should I say more certain, and no one should have been surprisedimage.jpg

I should point out an updated map would have a concentration of red (al shebaab) against the Kenyan border now and throughout Juba.

Personally I did not subscribe to the POV of a global co-ordinated extremist Jihadist movement.

From the URL below which profiles the Al Shabaab leadership, they are all from Somalia/Somaliland. Allegedly some have been killed, but do not know who have replaced them. There is also a list of foreign leaders at Wikipedia, don’t know if it is accurate and who are dominant in the organisation; Somalis or foreigners.

http://www.criticalthreats.org/somalia/al-shabaab-leadership

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shabaab_%28militant_group%29#Leaders

I also follow events & know of some of the Al Shabaab attacks on Kenyan territory. However, I suggest it was the utmost stupidity of the Kenyan forces in the areas inside and bordering Somalia to carry out abuses. Adding to this, corrupt Kenyan agencies engaged in trade that feeds Al Shabaab coffers. I believe the reports; as you know a senior Kenyan leader is currently in Court for similar abuses by enforcement agencies against the Kenyan people.

You may like to review the commentary regards the US support for the Ethiopian invasion of Somali and the "unintended consequences" within Somalia

http://www.thenation.com/article/bushs-somalia-strategy-enables-ethiopian-despot#

You’re right that most do not understand the importance of clan / tribal structures and implications. Same as they were not generally understood in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Syria.

[Steely Dan]

The BBC was criticized yesterday for not describing the armed jihadists behind the Kenya shopping centre siege as terrorists.

The corporations journalists have avoided using the words terrorist and terrorism in reports.

Instead, they described the terrorists as Islamist militants or suspected Al Shabaab militants - and only used the word terrorist in when quoting someone else.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2430714/BBC-guidance-preventing-reporters-using-word-terrorist-covering-Nairobi-massacre.html

.

PC gone nuts.

I half expect the BBC to make a sympathetic documentary concerning the so called black widow and how a list of half baked pretexts to commit mass murder should be placed on an equal footing with those who try to stop them.

[iancnx]

This does not excuse the terrible murders in Narobi, but rather than make childish comments, how about trying to understand the rise of Islamic extremism in Somali. A good article outlining the circumstance and contributing factors, with yet again Western and Saudi interference.

"a united, stable and Islamic country was the last thing Ethiopia wanted on its doorstep. So it invaded in the name of driving out fundamentalism, persuading Britain and the United States to back their key ally in the region. The incursion was disastrous, with Somalia spiralling back out of control, while grotesque human rights abuses boosted the militant cause. The biggest beneficiary was the security wing of the courts movement, al-Shabaab, which soon had control of much of Mogadishu and great swathes of the country"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/kenya-shopping-mall-attack-the-west-must-act-judiciously-over-somalia-if-these-horrors-are-to-end-8835268.html

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and neither does that report in the independent. To understand Islamic Fundamentalism you need study from a global perspective. If you want to understand a little of what is happening in Somalia start here:

http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/regions/africa/horn-of-africa/somalia/116-can-the-somali-crisis-be-contained.aspx

This report is from 2006. There are numerous other reports written up to the current date which will give you a much deeper insight into Al-Shabaab; who they are, where do they come from, and what do they want.

The dynamics in Somalia are far wider than Ethiopia, Kenya, the Middle East or the West. You need to understand the Clan structure in the whole of the Horn of Africa before you can even start to have an understanding about how Al-Shabaab have infiltrated the country; their leadership is not originally Somali.

The map below gives a flavour of the clan structure across the region. The important thing to understand is there are hundreds of sub-clans within each clan all ruled by different leaders. The clan 'boundaries' have no recognition of international borders.

Nairobi has been a target for Al-Shabaab for as long as I can remember back to 2006. The recent bun fights in Juba has made it more likely, or should I say more certain, and no one should have been surprisedimage.jpg

I should point out an updated map would have a concentration of red (al shebaab) against the Kenyan border now and throughout Juba.

Personally I did not subscribe to the POV of a global co-ordinated extremist Jihadist movement.

From the URL below which profiles the Al Shabaab leadership, they are all from Somalia/Somaliland. Allegedly some have been killed, but do not know who have replaced them. There is also a list of foreign leaders at Wikipedia, dont know if it is accurate and who are dominant in the organisation; Somalis or foreigners.

http://www.criticalthreats.org/somalia/al-shabaab-leadership

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shabaab_%28militant_group%29#Leaders

I also follow events & know of some of the Al Shabaab attacks on Kenyan territory. However, I suggest it was the utmost stupidity of the Kenyan forces in the areas inside and bordering Somalia to carry out abuses. Adding to this, corrupt Kenyan agencies engaged in trade that feeds Al Shabaab coffers. I believe the reports; as you know a senior Kenyan leader is currently in Court for similar abuses by enforcement agencies against the Kenyan people.

You may like to review the commentary regards the US support for the Ethiopian invasion of Somali and the "unintended consequences" within Somalia

http://www.thenation.com/article/bushs-somalia-strategy-enables-ethiopian-despot#

Youre right that most do not understand the importance of clan / tribal structures and implications. Same as they were not generally understood in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Syria.

Al Shabaab was formed from the remnants of the AIAI.

........al Shabaab, or The Youth. Formed in the first few years of the new millennium, the group began as the mili- tant remnant of a previous Somali Islamist organization, al Itihaad al Islamiya (AIAI). AIAI had arisen in the 1980s as a group of Middle Eastern-educated Somali Wahhabis who sought to replace the government of Mohammed Siad Barre with an Islamic state, yet by 2000 only the youngest, most militant members remained.

Extract taken from The Center for Strategic and International Studies: http://csis.org/files/publication/110715_Wise_AlShabaab_AQAM%20Futures%20Case%20Study_WEB.pdf

There is significant evidence that Al Quaida were closely connected to AIAI and therefore links were clear during the formation of 'The Youth'.

Embassy bomb masterminds Fazul Abdullah Mohammed, Abu Taha al-Sudani and Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan all fled to Somalia after the 1998 Kenya and Tanzania Embassy bombings where they worked with and were protected by the AIAI. This provides a clear Bin Laden linkage which was established before the AIAI morphed into the ICU and Al Shabaab.

See http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/al-shabaabs-threat-kenya

Therefore, whilst your wiki ref on historic leadership of A Shabaab is accurate, it fails to divulge the true founding of Al Shabaab and AQ's direct influence on their philosophy, tactics or doctrine.

The effect of the Horn of Africa Clan structure (including Yemeni ancestry) is far more in depth and to complex to explain or discuss here. And let's not start on the Sunni / Shia dynamic.

You were absolutely bang on to mention the similarities of Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. And I fear there are more examples to follow.......

[Steely Dan]

This does not excuse the terrible murders in Narobi, but rather than make childish comments, how about trying to understand the rise of Islamic extremism in Somali. A good article outlining the circumstance and contributing factors, with yet again Western and Saudi interference.

"a united, stable and Islamic country was the last thing Ethiopia wanted on its doorstep. So it invaded in the name of driving out fundamentalism, persuading Britain and the United States to back their key ally in the region. The incursion was disastrous, with Somalia spiralling back out of control, while grotesque human rights abuses boosted the militant cause. The biggest beneficiary was the security wing of the courts movement, al-Shabaab, which soon had control of much of Mogadishu and great swathes of the country"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/kenya-shopping-mall-attack-the-west-must-act-judiciously-over-somalia-if-these-horrors-are-to-end-8835268.html

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and neither does that report in the independent. To understand Islamic Fundamentalism you need study from a global perspective. If you want to understand a little of what is happening in Somalia start here:

http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/regions/africa/horn-of-africa/somalia/116-can-the-somali-crisis-be-contained.aspx

This report is from 2006. There are numerous other reports written up to the current date which will give you a much deeper insight into Al-Shabaab; who they are, where do they come from, and what do they want.

The dynamics in Somalia are far wider than Ethiopia, Kenya, the Middle East or the West. You need to understand the Clan structure in the whole of the Horn of Africa before you can even start to have an understanding about how Al-Shabaab have infiltrated the country; their leadership is not originally Somali.

The map below gives a flavour of the clan structure across the region. The important thing to understand is there are hundreds of sub-clans within each clan all ruled by different leaders. The clan 'boundaries' have no recognition of international borders.

Nairobi has been a target for Al-Shabaab for as long as I can remember back to 2006. The recent bun fights in Juba has made it more likely, or should I say more certain, and no one should have been surprisedimage.jpg

I should point out an updated map would have a concentration of red (al shebaab) against the Kenyan border now and throughout Juba.

Personally I did not subscribe to the POV of a global co-ordinated extremist Jihadist movement.

From the URL below which profiles the Al Shabaab leadership, they are all from Somalia/Somaliland. Allegedly some have been killed, but do not know who have replaced them. There is also a list of foreign leaders at Wikipedia, dont know if it is accurate and who are dominant in the organisation; Somalis or foreigners.

http://www.criticalthreats.org/somalia/al-shabaab-leadership

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shabaab_%28militant_group%29#Leaders

I also follow events & know of some of the Al Shabaab attacks on Kenyan territory. However, I suggest it was the utmost stupidity of the Kenyan forces in the areas inside and bordering Somalia to carry out abuses. Adding to this, corrupt Kenyan agencies engaged in trade that feeds Al Shabaab coffers. I believe the reports; as you know a senior Kenyan leader is currently in Court for similar abuses by enforcement agencies against the Kenyan people.

You may like to review the commentary regards the US support for the Ethiopian invasion of Somali and the "unintended consequences" within Somalia

http://www.thenation.com/article/bushs-somalia-strategy-enables-ethiopian-despot#

Youre right that most do not understand the importance of clan / tribal structures and implications. Same as they were not generally understood in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Syria.

Just as large numbers of the Syrian so called rebels come from anywhere but, or AQIM members in Mali did likewise, or indeed the attack on the Algerian oil refinery also came from outside, so it is with the attack on the mall. You can obfuscate all you like and point out the inevitable local factors, some indeed are relevant, but the clear unmistakable common denominator of Jihad runs through them all.

[simple1]

Al Shabaab was formed from the remnants of the AIAI.

........al Shabaab, or The Youth. Formed in the first few years of the new millennium, the group began as the mili- tant remnant of a previous Somali Islamist organization, al Itihaad al Islamiya (AIAI). AIAI had arisen in the 1980s as a group of Middle Eastern-educated Somali Wahhabis who sought to replace the government of Mohammed Siad Barre with an Islamic state, yet by 2000 only the youngest, most militant members remained.

Extract taken from The Center for Strategic and International Studies: http://csis.org/files/publication/110715_Wise_AlShabaab_AQAM%20Futures%20Case%20Study_WEB.pdf

There is significant evidence that Al Quaida were closely connected to AIAI and therefore links were clear during the formation of 'The Youth'.

Embassy bomb masterminds Fazul Abdullah Mohammed, Abu Taha al-Sudani and Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan all fled to Somalia after the 1998 Kenya and Tanzania Embassy bombings where they worked with and were protected by the AIAI. This provides a clear Bin Laden linkage which was established before the AIAI morphed into the ICU and Al Shabaab.

See http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/al-shabaabs-threat-kenya

Therefore, whilst your wiki ref on historic leadership of A Shabaab is accurate, it fails to divulge the true founding of Al Shabaab and AQ's direct influence on their philosophy, tactics or doctrine.

The effect of the Horn of Africa Clan structure (including Yemeni ancestry) is far more in depth and to complex to explain or discuss here. And let's not start on the Sunni / Shia dynamic.

You were absolutely bang on to mention the similarities of Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. And I fear there are more examples to follow.......

Thanks for the link on the CSIS case study, very informative. I noted the highlighted section at the introduction that references the US supported invasion of Somalia.

"Originally the small, youth militia arm of a relatively moderate Islamist organization that rose to power in Somalia in early 2006, al Shabaab was radicalized and brought to prominence as a popular Islamist guerrilla movement by Ethiopia’s invasion in December of that year"

I sometimes wonder what would happen if the US/NATO countries withdrew their military and interference within majority Islamic countries; would conflict finally 'settle down' and eventually lead to an era of peace in the Islamic world or is it more likely Islamic extremist conflict continues and escalates.

[Credo]

If the US would withdraw, they would return to the peace loving people they were before the US involvement.

They will all join hands and sing Kubaya, with the exception of the Afghani's because they aren't suppose to sing.

[canman]

Al Shabaab was formed from the remnants of the AIAI.

........al Shabaab, or The Youth. Formed in the first few years of the new millennium, the group began as the mili- tant remnant of a previous Somali Islamist organization, al Itihaad al Islamiya (AIAI). AIAI had arisen in the 1980s as a group of Middle Eastern-educated Somali Wahhabis who sought to replace the government of Mohammed Siad Barre with an Islamic state, yet by 2000 only the youngest, most militant members remained.

Extract taken from The Center for Strategic and International Studies: http://csis.org/files/publication/110715_Wise_AlShabaab_AQAM%20Futures%20Case%20Study_WEB.pdf

There is significant evidence that Al Quaida were closely connected to AIAI and therefore links were clear during the formation of 'The Youth'.

Embassy bomb masterminds Fazul Abdullah Mohammed, Abu Taha al-Sudani and Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan all fled to Somalia after the 1998 Kenya and Tanzania Embassy bombings where they worked with and were protected by the AIAI. This provides a clear Bin Laden linkage which was established before the AIAI morphed into the ICU and Al Shabaab.

See http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/al-shabaabs-threat-kenya

Therefore, whilst your wiki ref on historic leadership of A Shabaab is accurate, it fails to divulge the true founding of Al Shabaab and AQ's direct influence on their philosophy, tactics or doctrine.

The effect of the Horn of Africa Clan structure (including Yemeni ancestry) is far more in depth and to complex to explain or discuss here. And let's not start on the Sunni / Shia dynamic.

You were absolutely bang on to mention the similarities of Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. And I fear there are more examples to follow.......

Thanks for the link on the CSIS case study, very informative. I noted the highlighted section at the introduction that references the US supported invasion of Somalia.

"Originally the small, youth militia arm of a relatively moderate Islamist organization that rose to power in Somalia in early 2006, al Shabaab was radicalized and brought to prominence as a popular Islamist guerrilla movement by Ethiopia’s invasion in December of that year"

I sometimes wonder what would happen if the US/NATO countries withdrew their military and interference within majority Islamic countries; would conflict finally 'settle down' and eventually lead to an era of peace in the Islamic world or is it more likely Islamic extremist conflict continues and escalates.

I would certainly support such an experiment. I propose that we ring fence the middle east, pull all current forces there into Israel, force all non muslims to leave all the muslim dominated countries, total trade embargo and leave them to it.

[Chicog]

Al Shabaab was formed from the remnants of the AIAI.

........al Shabaab, or The Youth. Formed in the first few years of the new millennium, the group began as the mili- tant remnant of a previous Somali Islamist organization, al Itihaad al Islamiya (AIAI). AIAI had arisen in the 1980s as a group of Middle Eastern-educated Somali Wahhabis who sought to replace the government of Mohammed Siad Barre with an Islamic state, yet by 2000 only the youngest, most militant members remained.

Extract taken from The Center for Strategic and International Studies: http://csis.org/files/publication/110715_Wise_AlShabaab_AQAM%20Futures%20Case%20Study_WEB.pdf

There is significant evidence that Al Quaida were closely connected to AIAI and therefore links were clear during the formation of 'The Youth'.

Embassy bomb masterminds Fazul Abdullah Mohammed, Abu Taha al-Sudani and Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan all fled to Somalia after the 1998 Kenya and Tanzania Embassy bombings where they worked with and were protected by the AIAI. This provides a clear Bin Laden linkage which was established before the AIAI morphed into the ICU and Al Shabaab.

See http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/al-shabaabs-threat-kenya

Therefore, whilst your wiki ref on historic leadership of A Shabaab is accurate, it fails to divulge the true founding of Al Shabaab and AQ's direct influence on their philosophy, tactics or doctrine.

The effect of the Horn of Africa Clan structure (including Yemeni ancestry) is far more in depth and to complex to explain or discuss here. And let's not start on the Sunni / Shia dynamic.

You were absolutely bang on to mention the similarities of Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. And I fear there are more examples to follow.......

Thanks for the link on the CSIS case study, very informative. I noted the highlighted section at the introduction that references the US supported invasion of Somalia.

"Originally the small, youth militia arm of a relatively moderate Islamist organization that rose to power in Somalia in early 2006, al Shabaab was radicalized and brought to prominence as a popular Islamist guerrilla movement by Ethiopia’s invasion in December of that year"

I sometimes wonder what would happen if the US/NATO countries withdrew their military and interference within majority Islamic countries; would conflict finally 'settle down' and eventually lead to an era of peace in the Islamic world or is it more likely Islamic extremist conflict continues and escalates.

I would certainly support such an experiment. I propose that we ring fence the middle east, pull all current forces there into Israel, force all non muslims to leave all the muslim dominated countries, total trade embargo and leave them to it.

And of course force all muslims in non-Muslim countries to leave their homes as well.

[iancnx]

Simple 1 said:

//Thanks for the link on the CSIS case study, very informative. I noted the highlighted section at the introduction that references the US supported invasion of Somalia.

"Originally the small, youth militia arm of a relatively moderate Islamist organization that rose to power in Somalia in early 2006, al Shabaab was radicalized and brought to prominence as a popular Islamist guerrilla movement by Ethiopias invasion in December of that year"

I sometimes wonder what would happen if the US/NATO countries withdrew their military and interference within majority Islamic countries; would conflict finally 'settle down' and eventually lead to an era of peace in the Islamic world or is it more likely Islamic extremist conflict continues and escalates.//

Indeed they became much more active in 2006 for the reasons stated. However the first five years were spent harbouring AQ, getting training from AQ, and providing training to potential AQ operatives. This was going on quietly and unhindered until the 'west' decided to (attempt) remove said expertise (AQ and Bin Ladin influence) from African soil. Then it all kicked off once the Ethiopians came over the border. It would be totally inaccurate to say Al Shabaab was formed because of that invasion.

[canman]

Al Shabaab was formed from the remnants of the AIAI.

........al Shabaab, or The Youth. Formed in the first few years of the new millennium, the group began as the mili- tant remnant of a previous Somali Islamist organization, al Itihaad al Islamiya (AIAI). AIAI had arisen in the 1980s as a group of Middle Eastern-educated Somali Wahhabis who sought to replace the government of Mohammed Siad Barre with an Islamic state, yet by 2000 only the youngest, most militant members remained.

Extract taken from The Center for Strategic and International Studies: http://csis.org/files/publication/110715_Wise_AlShabaab_AQAM%20Futures%20Case%20Study_WEB.pdf

There is significant evidence that Al Quaida were closely connected to AIAI and therefore links were clear during the formation of 'The Youth'.

Embassy bomb masterminds Fazul Abdullah Mohammed, Abu Taha al-Sudani and Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan all fled to Somalia after the 1998 Kenya and Tanzania Embassy bombings where they worked with and were protected by the AIAI. This provides a clear Bin Laden linkage which was established before the AIAI morphed into the ICU and Al Shabaab.

See http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/al-shabaabs-threat-kenya

Therefore, whilst your wiki ref on historic leadership of A Shabaab is accurate, it fails to divulge the true founding of Al Shabaab and AQ's direct influence on their philosophy, tactics or doctrine.

The effect of the Horn of Africa Clan structure (including Yemeni ancestry) is far more in depth and to complex to explain or discuss here. And let's not start on the Sunni / Shia dynamic.

You were absolutely bang on to mention the similarities of Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. And I fear there are more examples to follow.......

Thanks for the link on the CSIS case study, very informative. I noted the highlighted section at the introduction that references the US supported invasion of Somalia.

"Originally the small, youth militia arm of a relatively moderate Islamist organization that rose to power in Somalia in early 2006, al Shabaab was radicalized and brought to prominence as a popular Islamist guerrilla movement by Ethiopia’s invasion in December of that year"

I sometimes wonder what would happen if the US/NATO countries withdrew their military and interference within majority Islamic countries; would conflict finally 'settle down' and eventually lead to an era of peace in the Islamic world or is it more likely Islamic extremist conflict continues and escalates.

I would certainly support such an experiment. I propose that we ring fence the middle east, pull all current forces there into Israel, force all non muslims to leave all the muslim dominated countries, total trade embargo and leave them to it.

And of course force all muslims in non-Muslim countries to leave their homes as well.

Only those who support the sharia and oppose secular law

[Chicog]

I would certainly support such an experiment. I propose that we ring fence the middle east, pull all current forces there into Israel, force all non muslims to leave all the muslim dominated countries, total trade embargo and leave them to it.

And of course force all muslims in non-Muslim countries to leave their homes as well.

Only those who support the sharia and oppose secular law

Wow, you've certainly thought this through.

[Frank James]

I have yet to read any clear report on how many of these "Islamist militants" (talk about a broad brush description) survived the counterattack and are now in custody.

The OP is just about verbatim on several other published reports of the aftermath. A few sketchy facts, a lot of speculation, a tentative body count, ending with "nation in morning" wallpaper. This seems to be a trend today. One source writes a story, and then the rest of them crib from it, whether it is accurate or not. Is this what comes of networks and formerly respected news services cutting back?

[F430murci]

I have yet to read any clear report on how many of these "Islamist militants" (talk about a broad brush description) survived the counterattack and are now in custody.

The OP is just about verbatim on several other published reports of the aftermath. A few sketchy facts, a lot of speculation, a tentative body count, ending with "nation in morning" wallpaper. This seems to be a trend today. One source writes a story, and then the rest of them crib from it, whether it is accurate or not. Is this what comes of networks and formerly respected news services cutting back?

I have a suspicion that Kenyan government is controlling or impeding the flow of useful information at this point.

[Steely Dan]

I have yet to read any clear report on how many of these "Islamist militants" (talk about a broad brush description) survived the counterattack and are now in custody.

The OP is just about verbatim on several other published reports of the aftermath. A few sketchy facts, a lot of speculation, a tentative body count, ending with "nation in morning" wallpaper. This seems to be a trend today. One source writes a story, and then the rest of them crib from it, whether it is accurate or not. Is this what comes of networks and formerly respected news services cutting back?

I have a suspicion that Kenyan government is controlling or impeding the flow of useful information at this point.

If that is indeed the case I suspect they are following a similar line to that adopted by western governments and much of it's mainstream media.

[F430murci]

I have yet to read any clear report on how many of these "Islamist militants" (talk about a broad brush description) survived the counterattack and are now in custody.

The OP is just about verbatim on several other published reports of the aftermath. A few sketchy facts, a lot of speculation, a tentative body count, ending with "nation in morning" wallpaper. This seems to be a trend today. One source writes a story, and then the rest of them crib from it, whether it is accurate or not. Is this what comes of networks and formerly respected news services cutting back?

I have a suspicion that Kenyan government is controlling or impeding the flow of useful information at this point.

If that is indeed the case I suspect they are following a similar line to that adopted by western governments and much of it's mainstream media.

Haha, okay. So much hate and resentment. Where does that come from? Does it really matter what you THINK Western media does? Pretty clear from the outset that media was given limited access to this entire event. Not being critical. That is the governments right in Kenya.

I will say that information flows much quicker in US. Media had the identity of the Navy base shooter within an hour or so and had an accurate count on the victims. The US would have released the guys name arrested at the airport and we would have already known the ID the 5 killed and those arrested if this happened in the US.

[iancnx]

I have yet to read any clear report on how many of these "Islamist militants" (talk about a broad brush description) survived the counterattack and are now in custody.

The OP is just about verbatim on several other published reports of the aftermath. A few sketchy facts, a lot of speculation, a tentative body count, ending with "nation in morning" wallpaper. This seems to be a trend today. One source writes a story, and then the rest of them crib from it, whether it is accurate or not. Is this what comes of networks and formerly respected news services cutting back?

I have a suspicion that Kenyan government is controlling or impeding the flow of useful information at this point.

If that is indeed the case I suspect they are following a similar line to that adopted by western governments and much of it's mainstream media.

Haha, okay. So much hate and resentment. Where does that come from? Does it really matter what you THINK Western media does? Pretty clear from the outset that media was given limited access to this entire event. Not being critical. That is the governments right in Kenya.

I will say that information flows much quicker in US. Media had the identity of the Navy base shooter within an hour or so and had an accurate count on the victims. The US would have released the guys name arrested at the airport and we would have already known the ID the 5 killed and those arrested if this happened in the US.

Yes I am sure you are correct up to a point. Of course when the US consider such information to be against the national interest I think you might find it all goes very quiet. So your point is kind of naïve.

[Frank James]

I want John Pilger and Greg Palast to go to Nairobi and get the real story. Wishful thinking...

As for US media being so on the spot with all of the facts, I must respectfully disagree. More than half the "news" any more is celebrity drivel, and for hard news or anything controversial one often sees the hand of PR people at work, and a disturbing sameness in point of view.

[F430murci]

I have a suspicion that Kenyan government is controlling or impeding the flow of useful information at this point.

If that is indeed the case I suspect they are following a similar line to that adopted by western governments and much of it's mainstream media.

Haha, okay. So much hate and resentment. Where does that come from? Does it really matter what you THINK Western media does? Pretty clear from the outset that media was given limited access to this entire event. Not being critical. That is the governments right in Kenya.

I will say that information flows much quicker in US. Media had the identity of the Navy base shooter within an hour or so and had an accurate count on the victims. The US would have released the guys name arrested at the airport and we would have already known the ID the 5 killed and those arrested if this happened in the US.

Yes I am sure you are correct up to a point. Of course when the US consider such information to be against the national interest I think you might find it all goes very quiet. So your point is kind of naïve.

Haha, one those conspiracy guys are you? Matters of national security should be off limits. Matters against national interest are reported all day every day in the US. US is not like Russia where they send the special police with machine guys to your house or place of business if you speak out against the country or its leaders. Our news is basically 24 hours a day with nothing but politicians and people speaking out against President, Republicans, tea party or democrats. Simply depends on which channel you watch here.

[F430murci]

Sounds as if they just killed anybody, Muslim or Christian just did not matter.

We will hear many tragic, sad stories in the days to come regarding this incident.

-----

Ms. Hassan said that the sisters are Muslim and wear head scarves a sign, she added, that the attackers didnt spare Muslims in their attack. My nieces are examples that Muslims were no different. She added: I think they were just two young girls who got caught in tragedy. Monsters just got hold of them. Thats all I can think about.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/wounded-in-kenya-mall-attack-canadian-teen-may-not-walk-again/article14514647/?service=mobile#!/

[Chicog]

She can console herself that 11 of them are in dark basements somewhere in Nairobi facing some monsters of their own....

[F430murci]

Wow.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/29/20742658-aftermath-of-terror-shown-in-new-images-of-kenyan-mall?lite

[Steely Dan]

I guess this thread is old news superceded by massacres in Nigeria, Pakistan and Iraq, but here is David Woods, who has a talent for ridiculing the deluded and the spineless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8F2K9Eg_U0