Is this fraud?

[phitsanulokjohn]

Hi all,

This is a bit of a long one, to try to obtain an answer to one simple question.Has fraud been commited?

Ok here we go.Let me take you back to May this year,when I paid a visit back to the Uk to visit My 85 year old Mother, may God bless and keep her.I will not say who,only to say it involves a male relative of mine, with almost the same name as me, apart from middle names. This relative asked me for a loan of 35,000 UK pounds over 3 years,to purchase outright a flat in the Kirkby area of Liverpool,which is already tenanted and producing 450 pounds pcm,albeit with a hefty maintenance charge of 185 pounds pcm.The relative agreed to pay me a further 10,000 pounds interest,which I Wrote in an e-mail and so it's all documented that,ok i would take the 10,000 pounds invest it, but ultimately would return this interest to him as i just don't believe in charging interest.(No I'm not muslim,and no cheeky replies asking me for a loan please.)

We both agreed the flat would remain in my name until such time, that via a direct debit mandate from his bank to mine, I had received 36 monthly payments of 1250 pcm. He would also put in place a life insurance policy making me the recipient of the first 35.000 pounds.It all sounded fair enough so i agreed to the proposition.

In early June i needed to return to Thailand.The relative and I visited a solicitor to draw up a power of attorney document,to enable the relative to deal with the purchase of the flat in my absence.The solicitor specifically asked if the POA was only to be related to the purchase of the flat and nothing else and I replied yes.

The relative needed an initial 10,000 pounds deposit so i instructed my Mother to write a cheque and pass onto the relative.which she did and which i'm responsible to my Mother for, the remaining 25,000 i was going to send into the solicitors client a/c upon completion.

As me and the relative have the same name, i told my Mother the cheque she was writing was for me as i couldn't access my money from my Uk bank,and the relative was going to deposit the money in his account and send it to my thai bank a/c and that i will give her the money back when i return in March next year,and as God is my witnesss however this turns out I shall.I absolutely adore my Mother, and as such hate lying to her,the only reason I have,is that I know if she knew the truth she wouldn't stop worrying, a common trait with elderly people as they come from a different era when times were genuinely hard,nonetheless i have the utmost respect for them and the last thing i would ever dream of doing is burden my Mother with worry,the tears are starting to roll down my cheek at the mere thought of it.God blessed me when he gave me her as a Mother.

So lets take you forward to last week.As a pretty simple property transaction,i.e no chain involved,flat already tenanted,I started to become suspicious as to what was taking so long to complete the flat almost 5 months so I emailed the relative and asked him what was happening.He replied ''The guy who owned the flat still owed 200 pounds,to the maintenance company and until this was paid the deal couldn't complete'' I thought this was feasible,and in actual fact was expecting the seller to pull out of the deal on the grounds that property is just starting to rise in the UK albeit slightly.However,my suspicions become further aroused when the relative emailed me last week to say if he pulled out of the deal with the flat would he be permitted to use the 10,000 pounds to buy some banking shares and he would pay me back by April,bear in mind this guy likes to change his mind more times than his underpants.I emailed him back and said ''before I make a decision can you tell me the exact whereabouts of the 10,000 pounds and have not received a reply.I personally think he's used the money for other purposes,and I have been duped.

Now whether or not it's his intention to repay the money,the advance of 10,000 pounds was solely for the deposit of the Kirkby flat and nothing else,so if he has taken it upon himself to use the money as he seems fit.Has he commited fraud?

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this long posting.Please no unhelpful replies such as God gave you your relatives,thank God we can choose our friends.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Sheryl
removed duplicative content

[phitsanulokjohn]

Apologies for the slight mess up at the bottom of the above posting.Entirely my fault.

[BookMan]

A bullet point summary for everyone to read would be your best bet at this stage

[phitsanulokjohn]

A bullet point summary for everyone to read would be your best bet at this stage

I apologise for my ignorance but how do i achieve this?

[itchybum]

Agree with BM...I bypassed it....

• do like this
• and this
• and this....
• keep it short n to the point

[Sheryl]

I have edited the post for you to remove all the repetition.

Assuming that the 10,000 pounds is indeed unaccounted for, obviously this relative has not kept his word with you. But whether or not it qualifies legally as fraud would depend upon the documentation surrounding his receipt of a check from your Mother. Because officially, she gave him the money, not you. Unless some sort of receipt was given specyifing what the money was for, you may have a problem establishing fraud.

[Stradavarius37]

Thailand related how? 3...2....

[adweb00]

Easy. Go online book plane ticket. Fly back to U.K arrive at mentioned persons door. Advise him to put the kettle on and get all documentation to said purchase!! Only 2 ways it can go your wrong or he is robbing his own family

[Beetlejuice]

Firstly, you did deceive your mother big time. Now your problem has become her problem. It was a reckless act to do and the decent thing now is either tell her the truth or take out a loan yourself and pay your mother back. Yes, quite correct, the estate management company will not permit an exchange of contracts until all maintenance charges are paid up to date in full.

Next: I gather this other genius is either your nephew or a close cousin. Do not hang about, begin legal procedures immediately. You can do this either on your own or with the services of a solicitor.

To do DIY: first write the other genius a letter (snail mail) asking for the return of your loan.. Explain in the letter details of the loan and the purposes of the loan and allow 7 days for him to respond, which must be written in the letter. Do not put without prejudice in the letter and especially keep everything formal and do not become abusive or lose your temper. If this is ignored or you receive an unsatisfactory response, then issue an impending legal proceedings notice, stating you intend to take legal action unless the debt is paid within 14 days. If again this is ignored or you receive an unsatisfactory response, either download an online default summons form or collect one directly from a UK civil court and issue a default summons directly to the court without reference to your relative. After 21 days and this is ignored or you receive an unsatisfactory response, issue a notice for judgement and if judgement against him is awarded, then 21 days after that, a warrant of execution to send the bailiffs in to collect your debt. If your relative alleges he does not have the funds to pay you back, then you can take him to the civil court for an oral investigation and he could be changed with contempt of court if he gives misinformation.

But, being in debt is not a criminal offence unless you can prove this genius obtained money from you by deception, and if you know for sure that this genius is a person of little wealth and has a small amount or no tangible assets or is not working or on low pay, then you should think again about taking legal action as it may progress to an actual court hearing. He may even issue a counter summons against you. The civil court says; you can’t get blood out of a stone. Also he may try the disappearing act, where he goes away and can’t be traced. So do try and keep tabs on this fella.

That’s the procedure. Regardless of what your relative used the loan for, the fact is he owes you, or should I say your duped mother? The said sum of monies.

Whatever you do next is at your own discretion.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[CharlieH]

All this depends on what paperwork there is and what it states.

If your Mother has simply given a cheque to this person, with no paperwork to support it, strictly speaking its got nothing to do with you as its between her and him. He could, without supporting paperwork, say it was a gift! Its his word against hers without something on paper to state otherwise.

The whole thing could get very ugly and messy as it appears its all word of mouth from what you have said.

[mogandave]

"Oh what a wicked web we weave, when first we practice to deceive...."

Isn't a verbal contract binding in the UK? If so, you seem to have some manner of documentation to support it that an agreement was reached.

You can't get blood from a turnip, so assuming the money is gone, are you ready to see him jailed for it?

Don't throw good money after bad.

[breadbin]

It's not fraud. It's civil. As someone posted, but a ticket and sort it out,

You may have been lied to but you've also lied to your mum.

2 peas from the same pod if you ask me.

[tingtong]

Take care of your mother, should be your #1 responsibility now.

And forget about your same name son if he dared to scam you for helping him!!

Your loss, and your lesson!

[scobie redux]

Jeez Sheryl, that OP is AFTER you've edited it for simplicity?

I would have hated to try to read it before you worked on it. That's five minutes of my life I'll never get back.

[wprime]

Please use double enters for paragraphs.

[StreetCowboy]

Shouldn't all this be posted in the "Trust Not in Thailand" thread?

In my country, my word is my bond, which is why I am so willing to put things in writing. If I'm not planning on welching on the deal, and I'm not ashamed of it, there's no harm in writing it down so that everyone understands what has been agreed.

It's surprising how often misunderstandings and inconsistencies are revealed when people read what they are agreeing to....

SC