American family returns ancient artifacts to Thailand

[slipperylobster]

Just take a look at the American history, they like to steel other people's national treasures,

Yeah, we're the only ones. And we also stole the good part of a continent. (Something the Australians never did.)

Steel? Gee...I hope English isn't your first language.

Yu'p "steel" hehehe, oop's for the typo, hmmm wait a second, is that how to spell typo? or is it typ'o or maybe tie-po?

"(Something the Australians never did.)" and what do you mean by that comment?

Hmm....makes me think how many prisoners on those prison ships were in the slammer for theft, before they populated that big piece of rock down under. History is a pain in the butt, isn't it?

[mca]

Is the bloke with the mic a bingo caller?

"Alright folks look at the lovely prizes we've got for you tonight. O.K. eyes down for a full house. 2 and 4 twenty four, on it's own number 1, 2 fat ladies 88...."

[aussieinthailand]

Siampolee

you clicked like for Slippery lobster's comment, and I thought you would know that the (British) in those prison ships sent from the old bailey too botany bay were not Australian,

guess I was wrong about you,

[F4UCorsair]

The British Museum has a LOT of Egyptian antiquities, including the Rosetta stone and the Sphinx' nose, that were stolen, and there's no hope of Egypt ever having those returned.......EVER!!

[indyuk]

I have the utmost respect for people that willingly return artifacts to the country of origin if only out of respect to the people and the heritage of World history.

However; this strange yet continuing American habit of pilfering and pillaging ancient artifacts wherever they go is an international problem. For two thousand years before America was discovered the Germanic tribes pillage all of Europe to get what they needed. This may explain the american holiday maker and soldiers on assignment similar behaviour because a little more that half of the caucasian population of the USA are ethnically German.

This curious impulse of americans as they roam the world continues in spite of the of the American Government insistence that Americans should buy and not take ancient artifacts from any nation while they are present regardless of the reason that they are there.

Further if they have purchase goods in good faith they must get an export license if it is required and comply with customs and shipping regulations.

If any American citizen would like to discuss this issue I would very much like to hear any mitigations so that I can document for the benefit our 'English Heritage' which has purchased many English, Scottish and Irish artifacts from America that they maybe returned to a display of relevant context.

[steveyinasia]

"and had started to return the items since 2002."...its taken 11 years to return them...better late than never I guess.

[indyuk]

Siampolee

you clicked like for Slippery lobster's comment, and I thought you would know that the (British) in those prison ships sent from the old bailey too botany bay were not Australian,

guess I was wrong about you,

They are your now though mate. Many Australian's are searching for their family connections to the prison ships. They announce it with pride if they are a direct descendant of a prisoner but only squeak shyly if there family connection is with one on the guards, soldiers or whores.

[aussieinthailand]

Siampolee

you clicked like for Slippery lobster's comment, and I thought you would know that the (British) in those prison ships sent from the old bailey too botany bay were not Australian,

guess I was wrong about you,

They are your now though mate. Many Australian's are searching for their family connections to the prison ships. They announce it with pride if they are a direct descendant of a prisoner but only squeak shyly if there family connection is with one on the guards, soldiers or whores.

Well no they the prisoners on the ship's were and STILL are BRITISH,,, and the descendants of the BRITISH prisoners are AUSTRALIAN, and yes quite proud of it, as am I of my criminal heritage, along with my Danish heritage but being that my great grandfather was from Denmark doesn't make me Danish now dose it,

I refer you to slipperylobster's comment, then you might get it, they were NOT Australians, "History's a pain in the butt isn't it"...

[LomSak27]

Certainly. At the time of the Vietnam War the Thais were restoring Phnom Rung. It took them nearly 20 years to do so. As they neared completion it was realised that the Narai lintel, that of a reclining Vishnu was missing. This lintel adorned the first, main, East door into the the temple and was unique. It was a vital piece of the puzzle.

By chance the lintel was discovered in a Chicago museum. The Thai authorities wanted it back, but at first the museum refused. This caused quite a stir in Thailand. Remember the Thai group Carabou? They had a huge hit here at the time entitled 'Keep Your Michael Jackson, Give us Back Our Lintel'. Eventually the museum returned the lintel but only after the Thai community in America had paid a quarter of as million dollars and the Thais promised to send regular exhibitions to the museum.

As to the lintel being sold by the locals, I don't know, but any clown knows that you need export permits for ancient artifacts which this obviously was. Therefore it was smuggled out of the Country and effectively stolen.

I took an interest in this as the temple is just down the road from me and the locals still talk about it. There are many references, here is one, look for others yourself.

http://content.time....,966959,00.html

EINSTEIN

Hey einstein - I have never heard one person with knowledge of this stating "americans stole it" - How in gods name would they know what it was anyway? But chances are the people responsible cannot be named .... ..... remember stories of the time have it that a Huey helecopter was flying around the area - now .... memory is getting weak here ... who else would have access to a Huey, besides the mericans.................. hmmmmmmm just confused here Einstien -

Can You Help ??

and who would be able to get it out and sell it on the black soethebys market circuit ? The museum of course did not want to give it back because they paid good money for it .... hmm how could that happen?

actually I imagine it happend pretty much the same as the Auyathaya crown that was discoverd back in the late 50's then stolen then found (when in police custody, but sadly peices were missing) the peices ended up in public auction where it was bought - that is why it was kept - the lintel was offered to both Euro and American museums but not at auction - The american museums big mistake was buying the black goods - stolen goods .... hmm now who could have stolen them again ......

[barrybankruad]

I know nothing about the Auythaya Crown so cannot comment. Yes I have heard about Huey (American choppers) flying to the top of the mountain (have you ever been there?) but did not comment because of no verification was possible. The point is that a stone lintel probably weighing half a ton went missing from a very important Thai ancient archeological site. How the hell did it get to America? It certainly didn't go on a domestic flight, probably the largest civilian aircraft at that time was a Boeing 707.

I have absoluteky no doubt (although I cannot prove, or find a link) that the artifact was transported back to America in a cargo or bomber aircraft capable of carrying it back to America where it was sold for profit. It happens all the time, Elgin marbles being the prime example. Just gogle what the Americans have done to the 'Hanging Gardens' in Iraq after they built a base there. It's all there on line for everyone to see.

[zydeco]

I know nothing about the Auythaya Crown so cannot comment. Yes I have heard about Huey (American choppers) flying to the top of the mountain (have you ever been there?) but did not comment because of no verification was possible. The point is that a stone lintel probably weighing half a ton went missing from a very important Thai ancient archeological site. How the hell did it get to America? It certainly didn't go on a domestic flight, probably the largest civilian aircraft at that time was a Boeing 707.

I have absoluteky no doubt (although I cannot prove, or find a link) that the artifact was transported back to America in a cargo or bomber aircraft capable of carrying it back to America where it was sold for profit. It happens all the time, Elgin marbles being the prime example. Just gogle what the Americans have done to the 'Hanging Gardens' in Iraq after they built a base there. It's all there on line for everyone to see.

Americans did not take the so-called Elgin Marbles to America. That was the British. The Ishtar Gate, btw, was/is in Germany.

[anotheruser]

No mention of a thank you from the officials. When people do the right thing, it is ok to say thank you, no matter what their relatives did moons ago.

There is no grounds to think that the relatives did anything wrong whatsoever. Times and laws were different back then. Kudos to the people that returned them but they wouldn't have been morally wrong to keep them either.

[anotheruser]

Errr since people are doing the right thing and returning things back too Thailand, well how about the returning of that blue rock from Saudi

I'm just sayin

Emerald Buddha to Laos while we are at it.

[anotheruser]

No mention of a thank you from the officials. When people do the right thing, it is ok to say thank you, no matter what their relatives did moons ago.

I think the government thanked them already by not locking the thieves up. Khmer, Laos, Thai and Vietnamese heritage sites have been robbed blind by American servicemen and their friends. Go to Wat Angkor and ask how much statues have been beheaded by scrupulous robbers. It is sad that only so few people return stolen goods.

Sorry should have multi-qouted however........

Go to Angkor Wat and see how many statues have been stolen by the Cambodians whose duty it was to protect them.

[LomSak27]

I know nothing about the Auythaya Crown so cannot comment. Yes I have heard about Huey (American choppers) flying to the top of the mountain (have you ever been there?) but did not comment because of no verification was possible. The point is that a stone lintel probably weighing half a ton went missing from a very important Thai ancient archeological site. How the hell did it get to America? It certainly didn't go on a domestic flight, probably the largest civilian aircraft at that time was a Boeing 707.

I have absoluteky no doubt (although I cannot prove, or find a link) that the artifact was transported back to America in a cargo or bomber aircraft capable of carrying it back to America where it was sold for profit. It happens all the time, Elgin marbles being the prime example. Just gogle what the Americans have done to the 'Hanging Gardens' in Iraq after they built a base there. It's all there on line for everyone to see.

So lets see - there is one other group who was flying US hueys around Thailand at the time - good to see you ignore that. And you are positive it was flown back in a US cargo plane - The same group of people who were flying the Hueys around could have easily had it shipped.

as you said, you have no proof. Back when this story actually was in the news a rueters article mentioned reports that the lintel had been offered "shopped" to some other museums .... in the US and Europe, I have no doubt it was men in green, but I also have no doubt they were not US soldiers in green.

Which is why "Thai community in America had paid a quarter of as million dollars and the Thais promised to send regular exhibitions to the museum" if they had outright stolen it (or rogue US military) I doubt very much such an arrangement would have been agreed upon - if however another group stole and sold it, then of course yes and the less said about who actually did it the better. Ahh but you have heard it all before grasshopper.

[aussieinthailand]

Gold from Ayutthaya now in Myanmar,

America,,,Bring me another pharaoh, these other mummies don't burn so good.

and the beat goes on,,,

[ballpoint]

No doubt once these ancient relics arrive in Thailand they'll be joining all the others on TV and posting about wars, which country can piss the furthest, and what a great job the government's doing.

[wolf5370]

Well, if you know anything about archeology and its history, you would know that it was essentially university/government sponsored stealing from poorer countries in the world. Can't be bothered posting links, but go look it up. If you are from a country that has had archeology for more than about 40- 50 years (most of Western Europe did) then your country has stolen many artifacts.--ask an Egyptian about it some time (among others).

So, it is good that they gave it back. I have known people (not just Americans, sorry) who were traveling in other countries and then got stopped at customs on their way out because they didn't have the proper documentation for some sculpture or whatever. They had just picked it up in a shop or a market and thought it looked cool....they didn't even think they were taking out some important cultural heritage piece. Not saying that is what happened here (have no idea), but it does happen.

This is a very complex argument - there are no Egyptians left - not the pyramid builders, the sphinx builders, the builders of Cleopatra's two needles - the people there now date back to the Mahdi overthrow in the 1880's - not so very long as 5000 years eh? Before that, the British held it (Gordon and all that) for a short time - then the Ottomans (again no longer existing - Turks being the closest surviving - also as Khedi after French rule) - and so on back through France, Moors, Arabs, Sudan, Rome, Byzantine, Nubians, and various other revolts and over throws and we eventually get to the ancient Egyptians. Similar can be said for many countries. If we suppose that victors (conquerors) also inherit the history, culture and all that belongs - then Germany would own much of mainland Europe's history and yet still French museums are packed with items returned from Germany after the war. Its a difficult argument with ancient cultures.

Not so difficult though when artefacts are taken in modern times and appear in foreign collections - unless there is provenance if it is legitimate - not provenance it is likely either fake or stolen/smuggled. If not fake, then it is receiving stolen goods and therefore should be returned. If there is provenece then it is for a court to decide on the legitimacy of that provenance in legal terms - and whether the item therefore should be returned. In the case of the lintel, there was no provenance and just because it ended in a well known collection and then on to a well known museum should not side step the law - the American courts should have enforced the item's return to its rightful owner just as it would expect other countries to return American history taken illegitimately - lets say for example someone steals the Declaration of Independence and it is found hanging in a Museum in Italy, you would expect that the Italian courts would enforce repatriation, no?

//Typo

[wolf5370]

Is the bloke with the mic a bingo caller?

"Alright folks look at the lovely prizes we've got for you tonight. O.K. eyes down for a full house. 2 and 4 twenty four, on it's own number 1, 2 fat ladies 88...."

Erm think you mean "...Knock at the door, 24....Kelly's eye, the number 1...Two fat ladies, 88" (My nan would be so proud!)

[wolf5370]

The British Museum has a LOT of Egyptian antiquities, including the Rosetta stone and the Sphinx' nose, that were stolen, and there's no hope of Egypt ever having those returned.......EVER!!

and no Egyptians to return it too if they did.

BTW the Rosetta Stone was "taken" from Egypt by the French not the British - it was captured by the British under the Capitulation of Alexandria. Therefore, the French had as much right to it as the British, and less than the present incumbents of Egypt (who were actually later conquerors of Egypt) - none of which where the originators of the stone!

[boomerangutang]

message to Thai officials: keep the items doubly safe. Robbers are continually on the lookout for anything of value.

[HerbalEd]

What a bunch of childish bickering ... you guys/mates/blokes who love to put down others and find every fault are a bunch of self-righteous bores. I don't care what country you're from, they all have their dark history ... and present ... as do the vast majority of their citizens.

[metisdead]

Inflammatory, insulting and off topic posts and replies have been removed.