The Grey Man "The truth revealed"

[thailiketoo]

The U.S. Department of State recommends that the Australian government should devote more attention and resources to addressing allegations of labor trafficking. … it is our experience that the level of support is variable and can be inadequate to meet the needs of victims leaving them vulnerable to violence, exploitation and endangerment of their ability to cooperate with law enforcement.

According to Project Reach, an Australia-based nongovernmental organization, Australia's sex slavery laws are failing and police are not doing enough to free enslaved women. http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/10

I, as an anonymous internet poster want to know why The Grey Man is not doing something about Australian sex trafficking.

He has a unique advantage in that he, speaks the language and he could save a lot of money on transportation.

Living in Thailand I know a lot of operatives of NSA, CIA, FBI, SAS, MI5,6,7 the French Foreign legion ,Mossad and they all agree that to provide intel the first qualification is speaking the language of the country that one is operating in.

Fair is fair if Tony Ryan an anonymous poster can demand an answer so can I.

And who on gods earth are the U.S to make recommendations to Australia. Tell those @#@%# to bugger of and get their own house in order. This is why you get so much anti U.S sentiment. They constantly interfere in every other country when their toilet is overflowing. At least in Australia we can take a piss without standing in <deleted>. Hey America look at Australia for a model if you want out of the toilet.

I agree with you 100% in fact in post #84 I wrote, "IMHO Thai cops should take care of Thailand, American cops take of America and Australian cops Australia. I think there is enough crime in Australia and America to keep the cops and wannabe cops busy without going abroad. No I don't think Australia should give America a run for world's cop this year."

But one good thing came out of my post and your reply. Now you know how the Thais felt about The Grey Man coming to Thailand.

BTW Project Reach, an Australia-based nongovernmental organization, wrote, "Australia's sex slavery laws are failing and police are not doing enough to free enslaved women." http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/10

Bull <deleted>, they don't want Aussies or anyone else here disturbing and sticking their noses into thier business...literally.

Of course not. Look at how Chooka reacted when I suggested Australia had a problem!

[philw]

To save time I went back and looked at Tony Ryan's posts and then followed links or did google searches. It seems that the 'original' story came out on Thai Tv Channel 7 on Dec 14th, 2011. Now if this is the original story people are referring to then you really can't be serious. Thai journalism isn't exactly renowned for its accuracy.

The next story I can find is a you tube vdeo by andrew drummond of Grey Man and the Akhas' uploaded on January 5th, 2012 followed by the same video and a blog article on Andrew Drummond's site dated Jan 7, 2012 which also coincides with the article in the Australian on the same date.

So let's discount the Thai story as being suspect and assume that Andrew Drummond is a credible journalist and did some research and produced an account of what looks like a fake rescue.

Bookman says: The original story and how it came about is the crux of the matter. The original story was about The Grey Man making up a press release about a phoney rescue. There is no dispute that they did this. It all started with The Grey Man putting into motion a story to gain publicity that was shown to be false.

Now my question is 'How do you know?' The only sources are Thai TV which seems a dubious source and if Tony Ryan is correct then they were directed by Trafcord which seems to have an interest in discrediting Grey Man. The only other source is Andrew Drummond.

Mr Drummond does seem to have a social justice agenda which I admire and appears to have gotten a number of stories correct. However, a journalist is only as good as his sources. Who were Mr Drummond's sources? Trafcord and the children. My Ryan gives a VERY detailed account of what happened and it is quite believable given the level of detail. At the same time he offered Mr Drummond the chance to answer a number of questions but Mr Drummond ignored the questions. I can only assume that some of the people on this site gave only a cursory look at Tony Ryan's posts or ignored them completely. If so they do themselves and this whole issue a disservice.

I also followed the links Mr Ryan provided and I think the most telling is the Ban Khun Suay Facebook page set up (he says) by Trafcord. https://www.facebook.com/search/more/?q=Ban+Khun+Suay&init=public#!/bankhun.suay?fref=browse_search

and I think that anyone who tries to be objective will be suspicious after reading that page. As Mr Ryan says there is nothing on it about the village except for a lot of anti-grey man information. I encourage you to look and make your own mind as to whether it is the kind of page a village would set up that mentions absolutely nothing about the village.

I think there is a great deal of truth in Tony Ryan's posts but I can't prove it. Just as no-one can really show that Mr Drummond's article is true either, especially after reading Mr Ryan's posts. No journalist is infallible. I remember an article many years ago about Libyan terrorists being sent to kill Ronald Reagan. I remember thinking at the time that it seemed strange that the authorities knew who they were (their photos were on the front page of the Washington Post) and that they were in Canada preparing to kill Reagan. Here is the article:

http://www.wrmea.org/congress-and-us-aid-to-israel/483-uncategorised/11244-the-libyan-hit-squad-hoax.html

The story disappeared and it only came out 5 years later that the story was a hoax done by an Iranian working for the Israeli Intelligence Service. the post told the truth in a two line item.

So, no offence to Mr Drummond but in light of the vast amount of information Mr Ryan provided and the fact that Mr Drummond would not respond to questions I can only assume that there is some truth in what Mr Ryan says. It is possible that Mr Drummond got it wrong only because his sources were not reliable or had an interest in misdirecting him. Sh!t happens, even to journalists of Mr Drummond's standing

Drummond is a well known Thai journalist.

• Fox Television
• Observer Film Company
• Observer
• News of the World
• Evening Standard/Daily Mail
• Fleet Street News Agency (TVNS)
• Reading Chronicle/Berkshire Mercury

Who is Tony Ryan?

You are so mixed up, you are trying to compare a part time / freelance journalist with the story he writes about a particular person. Who is Rupert Murdock and who is Sam Vandersam? What is your point? Drummond has been recognised as a person of false allegations and is banned from many media outlets and social networks. What is your point?

Can you substantiate the allegations in your penultimate sentence ???

[Jessi]

The U.S. Department of State recommends that the Australian government should devote more attention and resources to addressing allegations of labor trafficking. … it is our experience that the level of support is variable and can be inadequate to meet the needs of victims leaving them vulnerable to violence, exploitation and endangerment of their ability to cooperate with law enforcement.

According to Project Reach, an Australia-based nongovernmental organization, Australia's sex slavery laws are failing and police are not doing enough to free enslaved women. http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/10

I, as an anonymous internet poster want to know why The Grey Man is not doing something about Australian sex trafficking.

He has a unique advantage in that he, speaks the language and he could save a lot of money on transportation.

Living in Thailand I know a lot of operatives of NSA, CIA, FBI, SAS, MI5,6,7 the French Foreign legion ,Mossad and they all agree that to provide intel the first qualification is speaking the language of the country that one is operating in.

Fair is fair if Tony Ryan an anonymous poster can demand an answer so can I.

[thailiketoo]

Not fair dinkum. If Tony Ryan can ask a question so can I.

I quoted a reputable source, "Project Reach, an Australia-based nongovernmental organization, wrote, "Australia's sex slavery laws are failing and police are not doing enough to free enslaved women." http://www.humantraf....org/updates/10

Grey Man operates in Australia and travels all the way to Thailand for his brand of vigilante justice. Why not do it at home?

Anyone who can read knows the trafficking problems in Thailand are on fishing boats and factories not brothels. It is a 99 to 1 ratio. If some one wants to bust Thailand's chops let them do where the problem is; on the high seas or in the industrial slums. Not much fun that; slums and little boats and big waves. And I'm thinkin one might need to speak Thai and be willing to take risks to get in those areas, boats and slums. Gathering intel might be a bit more difficult than a bunch of Aussie ex cops sitting around it bars hoping one of the girls said something in English.

[thailiketoo]

Second hand information. He said she said. Tony/ericthegoalie wrote, "Drummond was told the truth about the rescue of the 22 children but not the whole truth because he couldn’t be trusted. Seems he had damaged a family in the past by passing on confidential info. However, John Curtis figured that if Drummond investigated he would be able to put some doubt into people’s minds about the BS that was coming out of Thailand."

How did, Tony/ericthegoalie get that information? Who told him? Tony/ericthegoalie is an American and he wasn't there so how did he find out? Did he make it up?

[ericthegoalie]

It would really help thailiketoo if you actually bothered to do some reading before you made comments

Tony Ryan Post 74 ; 'I am taking most of what you read here from the document that John Curtis gave to the Department of Special Investigation in Thailand (He gave me a copy) plus some private emails and his personal briefing to me back in 2012.'

[thailiketoo]

It would really help thailiketoo if you actually bothered to do some reading before you made comments

Tony Ryan Post 74 ; 'I am taking most of what you read here from the document that John Curtis gave to the Department of Special Investigation in Thailand (He gave me a copy) plus some private emails and his personal briefing to me back in 2012.'

Nonsense. Links to some facts please. Abe Lincoln gave my family a copy of the Gettysburg address too.

[ericthegoalie]

Isn't Mr Drummond's article also hearsay?. people told him stuff...he wrote it down

[thailiketoo]

Isn't Mr Drummond's article also hearsay?. people told him stuff...he wrote it down

Big difference. Drummond published a photo of 21 kids who were not trafficked and said that Grey Man made up the story to get funding. The kids said they were not trafficked as did their parents and the cops and the locals. This story was published in Australia and Grey Man resigned.

[BookMan]

Isn't Mr Drummond's article also hearsay?. people told him stuff...he wrote it down

Big difference. Drummond published a photo of 21 kids who were not trafficked and said that Grey Man made up the story to get funding. The kids said they were not trafficked as did their parents and the cops and the locals. This story was published in Australia and Grey Man resigned.

Eric is kicking own goals here.

Drummond referenced his research and provided photos, video, quotes from actual real people. He fact checked. It is called journalism.

[Showbags]

And who on gods earth are the U.S to make recommendations to Australia. Tell those @#@%# to bugger of and get their own house in order. This is why you get so much anti U.S sentiment. They constantly interfere in every other country when their toilet is overflowing. At least in Australia we can take a piss without standing in <deleted>. Hey America look at Australia for a model if you want out of the toilet.

I agree with you 100% in fact in post #84 I wrote, "IMHO Thai cops should take care of Thailand, American cops take of America and Australian cops Australia. I think there is enough crime in Australia and America to keep the cops and wannabe cops busy without going abroad. No I don't think Australia should give America a run for world's cop this year."

But one good thing came out of my post and your reply. Now you know how the Thais felt about The Grey Man coming to Thailand.

BTW Project Reach, an Australia-based nongovernmental organization, wrote, "Australia's sex slavery laws are failing and police are not doing enough to free enslaved women." http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/10

Bull <deleted>, they don't want Aussies or anyone else here disturbing and sticking their noses into thier business...literally.

Of course not. Look at how Chooka reacted when I suggested Australia had a problem!

you don't get it do you...

[thailiketoo]

I said Aussie cops should stay in Australia and American cops stay in America. Chooka missed it and said American cops should stay in America. You (showbags) said Thais don't want Aussie cops in Thailand. I said, of course not, nor do Australians want American cops in Australia.

If I missed something feel free to explain.

[Showbags]

I said Aussie cops should stay in Australia and American cops stay in America. Chooka missed it and said American cops should stay in America. You (showbags) said Thais don't want Aussie cops in Thailand. I said, of course not, nor do Australians want American cops in Australia.

If I missed something feel free to explain.

If you need the explanation, you have not much idea what you talk about in relation to what goes on in this country....never mind

[thailiketoo]

I said Aussie cops should stay in Australia and American cops stay in America. Chooka missed it and said American cops should stay in America. You (showbags) said Thais don't want Aussie cops in Thailand. I said, of course not, nor do Australians want American cops in Australia.

If I missed something feel free to explain.

If you need the explanation, you have not much idea what you talk about in relation to what goes on in this country....never mind

That's not a nice answer. If you asked a question I would be happy to answer or try to. You are being dismissive and a bit insulting. I however think it is you who don't have a clue. If you want to know anything don't hesitate to ask. I won't make fun of you.

[OLDAUSSIE]

Perhaps someone can answer this question.

How many "Sock puppets" does Andrew Drummond have on thaivisa?

[ericthegoalie]

Here is one piece of 'evidence'

'Drummond wrote The Co-ordination Centre for the Protection of Women and Childrens Rights, [CCPWC]comprising government and non-government agencies, issued a statement denying the children were at risk from traffickers and needed to be rescued. The CCPWC is part of trafcord and they started bombarding the Grey Man facebook page and any donors pages with a You have been the victim of a scam message.

Not content with that Svasti then got in the Thai media, dragged the kids out of school, transported them for 45 minutes over back roads in the back of a pickup, just so they could be paraded for 30 seconds in front of the media, who then put out a bogus story about Grey Man ripping off donors and spending the money on themselves.

But wait theres more, then trafcord set up a fake facebook page which luckily is still up (maybe not for much longer once this is seen) and it purported to be about the village of Baan Khun Suay (where the rescue took place). Take a look for yourself. Do a Google search for ban khun suay facebook and pick the one with the sun setting over some hills.

The page says absolutely nothing about the village but is a diatribe against grey man and all comments are in English (not the preferred language of the people in the village). It also only has two dates for entries. The first was initially after the rescue and the second was after the media reports started to come out and they provide all the links to the reports. I suspect that facebook page will disappear sometime soon after this gets out'.

The facebook page actually exists and I think anyone who looks at it will see that its sole purpose was designed to discredit the grey man. Here's the link https://www.facebook.com/bankhun.suay

But of course you would actually have to look at it...and even if you did...I guess you would say 'Tony Ryan, that (now possibly female) 17 year old prankster, must have built that page himself!!!!'

[thailiketoo]

tonyryan/ericthegoalie wrote, "And since, as I understand it, you need paperwork to put children in a shelter, did Mr Drummond (when he visited the shelter) ask to see the paperwork for the kids. As you must know and he must know being a long term resident of Thailand...the Thais love paperwork"

From the story, "The Grey Man and the Akhas." "But our investigation shows that not only were these very same children never taken to safe housing, and they were going to school as they normally do."

Why would there be paperwork if the kids were never trafficked?

[ericthegoalie]

Why would they be sent to a shelter if they were never trafficked?

[thailiketoo]

Why would they be sent to a shelter if they were never trafficked?

Why indeed.

Ya that's what the story says, "But our investigation shows that not only were these very same children never taken to safe housing, and they were going to school as they normally do."

So why did The Grey Man say the kids were trafficked?

[Showbags]

I said Aussie cops should stay in Australia and American cops stay in America. Chooka missed it and said American cops should stay in America. You (showbags) said Thais don't want Aussie cops in Thailand. I said, of course not, nor do Australians want American cops in Australia.

If I missed something feel free to explain.

If you need the explanation, you have not much idea what you talk about in relation to what goes on in this country....never mind

That's not a nice answer. If you asked a question I would be happy to answer or try to. You are being dismissive and a bit insulting. I however think it is you who don't have a clue. If you want to know anything don't hesitate to ask. I won't make fun of you.

Fair enough..

Police in Australia and America do not want people from the other side sticking their noses into their business for reasons of pride and such, usually they are sufficiently resourced and experienced to carry out their own operations. But, they still co-operate across borders for all types of issues, but rarely investigate on the ground in each others country I would guess as each deemed to have their own experience, ability and funding to do it themselves and be proud of doing their own job themselves.

In Los, its the opposite, they do not want the outsiders to see the corruption, the deals, the under table operations and police collecting money, if not owning many of these operations themselves.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Showbags

[thailiketoo]

Fair enough..

Police in Australia and America do not want people from the other side sticking their noses into their business for reasons of pride and such, usually they are sufficiently resourced and experienced to carry out their own operations. But, they still co-operate across borders for all types of issues, but rarely investigate on the ground in each others country I would guess as each deemed to have their own experience, ability and funding to do it themselves and be proud of doing their own job themselves.

In Los, its the opposite, they do not want the outsiders to see the corruption, the deals, the under table operations and police collecting money, if not owning many of these operations themselves.

Oh heck yes. I was just a kid in Thailand but I remember when the armed army and the armed cops faced off over a large drug shipment and almost started a full grown war; late 60's or early 70's.

But things change. The trafficking now is in boats to fish and factories to work. Sure the cops are involved. But it is a complicated issue. In many remote areas young people go to work at 14 to 16 and that is considered normal. Farmers in the West also are exempt from child labor laws for their own children. I started working at 14 for starvation wages or so I told my father. It would have been cool to get rescued by some Aussies.

If a boy drops out of school in NYC and gets a job at a fast food restaurant at 15 years of age, is the bus driver who takes him to work daily a child labor trafficker?

[Showbags]

Fair enough..

Police in Australia and America do not want people from the other side sticking their noses into their business for reasons of pride and such, usually they are sufficiently resourced and experienced to carry out their own operations. But, they still co-operate across borders for all types of issues, but rarely investigate on the ground in each others country I would guess as each deemed to have their own experience, ability and funding to do it themselves and be proud of doing their own job themselves.

In Los, its the opposite, they do not want the outsiders to see the corruption, the deals, the under table operations and police collecting money, if not owning many of these operations themselves.

Oh heck yes. I was just a kid in Thailand but I remember when the armed army and the armed cops faced off over a large drug shipment and almost started a full grown war; late 60's or early 70's.

But things change. The trafficking now is in boats to fish and factories to work. Sure the cops are involved. But it is a complicated issue. In many remote areas young people go to work at 14 to 16 and that is considered normal. Farmers in the West also are exempt from child labor laws for their own children. I started working at 14 for starvation wages or so I told my father. It would have been cool to get rescued by some Aussies.

If a boy drops out of school in NYC and gets a job at a fast food restaurant at 15 years of age, is the bus driver who takes him to work daily a child labor trafficker?

Not at all....that is why the trafficking laws and definitions are somewhat twisted and incorporate all the individuals instead of on a case by case situation and only some of the individuals.

We had a Nanny many years ago, Burmese, she was excellent, circa 25/28yo and she had to go back to Burma one day to take her sick brother back, she was to return when she could in weeks rather than days or months.

We got a call from her on the bus on the way down to us, she got done by immigration, locked up and deported. She tried again weeks later and called from the jungle while be smuggled across the border, then again when in Thailand and she needed 10k baht to pay the smugglers to get her to Bkk. We declined as thought maybe never see her again. We spoke directly to the smugglers and they offered to drop her to our door, good service we thought, but declined as did not want smugglers at our door.

So, these smugglers, are they traffickers ? Most likely yes....but she was never coerced, she was not forced, she was not shackled, she was not sold, she sought them out to assist her to find a job and get her there. They provided a service to willing individuals seeking out a better life.

To me, this is the problem where the classification of trafficker and slave trader etc comes in. Sure the ones that deal in violence and other means should be eradicated from the planet. But these, not so sure.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Showbags

[Showbags]

Eric...you must be Tony...same fixation compulsive disorder to post relentlessly.

Not that this is a bad thing, but why not just say whom you are, many believe what you are trying to state and tell us which charity you own and run.

[chrisrazz]

NGO 'turf wars', bent cops, child sex slave trafficking, commandos style rescues, fake facebook pages, ambivalent western consuls and there's more......duped falang journalists. Only in Thailand. Tony Ryan, you can be my corner man anytime.

Mr. Drummond, his professional reputation questioned, fails miserably to defend himself in shock news!

I have spent the whole afternoon reading this story, a story I'd never heard about before. I guess, due to the economic woes in the donor economies there is considerable pressure and hence competition amongst groups for the $$$ to keep the level of activities functioning, whatever that entails. I don't want to comment on how the money is spent. The really deplorable side effect is that the kids who've had little protection now have even less.

Doffed cap, particularly to Gina R and any others throughout the world who seek to save of the children of the world from the most heinous exploitation, it's a shame that your goodwill has fallen pray to opportunists. Also, those at the coal face really getting your hands dirty, your bravery and committment are without equal.

To all those characters who have conspired in this evil trade for personal gain, be you trafficker or recipient of bribes, karma is going to get you, it may take time or even be in the next life, but it'll get you.

To those who gratify themselves with children, you are so very very sick.

[metisdead]

As there have been a number of violations of fair use policy, citing unsubstantiated sources in this topic, this is now closed.