Police Detain Sondhi

[ColPyat]

The land that in typical eastern materialism allowed the mighty and powerful to enrich themselves beyond believe so that Thailand together with China has the highest gap between rich and poor in Asia?

Don't forget the Philippines.

I don't understand why Asians, esp the middle classes among them, are so crassly materialistic. Do they think that it's just a by-product of "modernization" and that everyone in the West does it like them too? Having spent most of my life in the West, the level of materialism and decadence I see around here is sick. What's more - how can all these people you see in Sukhumvit-Ratchaprasong-Siam afford it? I know Thailand has a number of ridiculously rich people, but surely not that many?

I have spend now closed to half my life here in Asia, and yes, it does make me sick as well.

How they can afford it?

Well, if you are above a certain social class, you don't just live of your income of your designated job. You have one job that, regardless of income, gives you social status. With that status, combined with that of your family, you will get opportunities that simply are unheard of nowadays in a more egalitarian society.

[ColPyat]

"Police detain Sondhi, BREAKING NEWS" - not Thaksin, not "finding the root of Thai problems", not the "Land of Smiles", not "materialism and Thai society".

I'm not a moderator, though, post whatever you like on any of the above topics and anything else if you feel so.

If you take exception to me straying from the topic, than would it be not more apt to do that with the poster who originally brought up those points on which i only answered?

Or, do you take exception only with my posts because i do not share your view, and the poster who brought up the topic of "western materialism" shares your exagerated hate towards Thaksin?

Anyhow, for you it appears everything is in order as long as one shares your view, and any deeper analyses of what is going on here is off topic because it does neither suit your views nor literally follows a headline.

Yes, you are not a moderator, so please refrain from telling me what may be off topic or not. Please let that not disintgrate into bickering, whining and personal attacks again. Please!

[Plus]

Here's an interesting view Colpyat would like, I guess:

Anti-Thaksin rallies must end now

As PAD continues street demonstrations which worsen political instability in the country, it becomes clear that while PAD knows what it is against, it has no idea what it is for

By MATTHEW ARNOLD

The last four months in Thai politics have been a disaster... for everybody. There are no winners in this debacle. The biggest losers are the Thai people, who have seen their country's central governance grind to a halt because of political turmoil.

The ruling party, the Thai Rak Thai, has seen its leader Thaksin Shinawatra effectively ousted from power. The "mess" of the April 2 election left the country's democratic system in doubt and highlighted serious constitutional ambiguities. There is in effect no parliament at the moment. The Election Commission is widely seen as being incompetent. His Majesty the King, clearly exasperated by the political situation, recently exclaimed he had "suffered quite a lot" because of it. As a result of this, Thailand's international reputation has been tarnished while domestically the country has been left polarised.

And yet, it appears that the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) wishes to continue with its mass street rallies. One is left wondering, given all the problems facing Thailand, what purpose continued rallies could possibly serve at this moment. One might even be so bold as to question what positive outcomes the country has gained from these protest rallies overall. What is a given is that the rallies were crucial in helping to instigate the present political situation and hence its harmful consequences. Certainly, PAD cannot be held entirely responsible for the present situation; there is enough blame to go around. Mr Thaksin must bear much responsibility for the crisis because he called such a hasty election _ trying to obfuscate the controversy over his Shin Corp deal _ and in general for fostering an unhealthy, cynical political culture.

Yet, much of this crisis does indeed stem from the arrogant haste and the intransigence of the anti-Thaksin opposition to compromise during February and early March. It is one thing to unceasingly demand the departure of one man. To then see it happen without constitutional due process and still be unable to offer a specific, credible vision for ending the crisis was pathetic.

PAD helped stir up a proverbial hornet's nest and then seemed rather blase{aac} about the repercussions of that, blaming others and then demanding others also solve the problem. It seems like it wants to pick up a stick and start banging away again.

It was indeed remarkable that with the country's democratic future thrown into chaos and doubt after the April 2 election, all that PAD did was ask the King to appoint a government _ something he adamantly refused to do since he thought it blatantly undemocratic. It was unfair of PAD to expect the King by himself to resolve a very confused political crisis when it helped to foment it without any care for what might result from its early efforts.

PAD's strident calls for the King to "save" the country highlighted its own lack of a political vision. It has never presented a platform for real change through the political system and instead has done harm by seeking radical change _ such as the ouster of the prime minister without constitutional due process _ through street protests.

It is with this consideration that the strongest critique of PAD can be made. The reason for PAD's failures is that it has become a protest movement defined fundamentally as being against Mr Thaksin as an individual, rather than standing for something, and having a coherent strategy for political reform. While it may be that all "protest" movements ought to be against something, if they are to be conducive to positive change they must offer more than negativity and personal animosity through combative means like street protests. It seems that much of PAD's agenda is driven by personal histories and the loathing of Mr Thaksin by its leadership, rather than the broader consideration for Thailand's political health. This is a shame because there obviously is a lot of sincerity from the common people who participate in PAD rallies and that sincerity is being corrupted by PAD leadership.

In their defence, many in PAD would argue that Mr Thaksin bears sole responsibility for the crisis because of his alleged corruption and hasty election call, and hence his departure is in itself beneficial to the whole country. Besides being undemocratic, this is a lame argument in general. Mr Thaksin was an elected leader who never saw due process that could have ultimately led to his ouster.

Regardless, Mr Thaksin is only one half of a political equation that provoked this national crisis. The PAD street protests are a large part of the other half and a rather unhelpful part at that. Mr Thaksin has many significant faults of his own but all that the country gets from PAD are endless allegations and pretentious demands to change nothing but the prime minister.

This country has an electorate of tens of millions and to make important decisions it needs a quorum of 500 MPs chosen in free elections, not one of 50,000 street protesters in Sanam Luang or Lumpini park in Bangkok.

A calming period would now help the country. It would allow the courts to make thoughtful decisions and then for the country to move forward in a less contentious, less hateful atmosphere. PAD can still serve a positive role in the reform movement. It can do so by encouraging efforts for political reform based on a coherent platform of political change. The medium for this could be a softer, less abrasive one, such calmly calling for reform through civil society. Let PAD seek incremental steps to reform the political system, rather than demand radical change through street rallies. Continued street rallies serve no purpose other than to aggravate an already polarised situation.

Even if Mr Thaksin does re-enter the political arena, if PAD is sincere about being a broad alliance of people dedicated to democracy, then let them strive to defeat him at the polling booth, not through street rallies. That has been tried and it achieved nothing more than animosity, deadlock, and confusion.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/08May2006_news20.php

Any comments?

[ColPyat]

Here's an interesting view Colpyat would like, I guess:

Yes, i do agree with this view to a large part.

[elkangorito]

All the time this clown Sondhi is not actually fighting for democracy.

He has a personal vendetta against Taksin.

His real intention is to take revenge on Taksin and he has no plans

on the future of Thailand. He is responsible for introducing anarchy

into Thailand. He is a ' wacko '. I personally think that this clown

should join the Royal London Circus.

The Royal London Circus informed Sondhi that the position had been filled by a much more experienced clown by the name of Thaksin, who interviewed very well during his latest trip to the UK.

[elkangorito]

When I return to Thailand in July/August, I will be happy to support the 'antidote' to the 'toxin' that has poisoned Thailand.

Good ridance to that money hungry, tyranical, square faced & undemocratic control freak.

Maybe I'm stupid? Maybe if I value material possession over freedom, I will support Mr Thaksin? I THINK NOT!!! My life is much more than a bank balance. Thailand is a place that teaches you that western ways are not always right. If Toxin resumes control, we might as well 'kiss goodbye' to the wonderful Thailand that we knew & 'welcome' the stifling western ways.

Which *wonderful* Thailand?!

The land in which daughters of impoverished farmers from villages of social ethical and moral collapse enter prostitution en masse in an eastern way of materialism? Is not the "eastern way of materialism" an offshoot of how the east has been exposed to western culture? Remember, Thailand has really only been STRONGLY trading with western countries for the past 70 odd years. Earlier connections with the west was more to do with major infrstructure & NOT putting '7-elevens' on every corner.

The land with somewhere around 1 million HIV infected out of a population of a bit more than 60 million? Sexually transmitted diseases have plagued the world since year dot. Nothing has changed. And how does Thailand having a high HIV infection rate make Thailand a 'not so good' place to live? Do you plan on having lots of unsafe sex?

The land with one of the highest murder rates in the world? Maybe if we (the westerners) force our 'control freak' ways on Thailand strong enough, we can have a cop on every corner. Maybe we can install millions of laws & have the same legal nightmare as the western countries do. Maybe in Thailand, if the country is 'lucky' enough, persons can sue other persons for anything. Yep! That's the remedy...lots more laws & hence, much less personal responsibility. This is the Thailand I dream of....NOT!!!!

The land that in typical modern eastern materialism allowed the mighty and powerful to enrich themselves beyond believe so that Thailand together with China has the highest gap between rich and poor in Asia? They were probably a lot happier before they got television & the internet. By comparison only, these 'poor' people think that they are poor.

Thaksin is nothing but a product of his society western influence and a logical consequence of decades of mismanaging the country. And, if you are Thai, and born poor, there never was much *wonderful* about life here. And, no, there is nothing remotely *wonderful* about being poor.

If all I had to worry about was where my next meal came from, I think I'd be a happier man. Many people in Thailand still live like this & I don't think that all of them are unhappy, as you suggest they are.

But, there are no guarantees in life except death. It is a fact that Thailand will ultimately fall to western ideas. Clock watching, money problems, coronary disease, diabetes (obesity), high taxes, forced education, only being able to afford a home if you're rich, political correctness, suing for almost any reason...are all products of the western world, just to name a few. I think that many foreigners come to Thailand to escape this madness. My only hope is that this western influence can be delayed as long as possible, which means getting tough with any government official who wants to use western idealism to feather his eastern nest.

[elkangorito]

When I return to Thailand in July/August, I will be happy to support the 'antidote' to the 'toxin' that has poisoned Thailand.

Good ridance to that money hungry, tyranical, square faced & undemocratic control freak.

Maybe I'm stupid? Maybe if I value material possession over freedom, I will support Mr Thaksin? I THINK NOT!!! My life is much more than a bank balance. Thailand is a place that teaches you that western ways are not always right. If Toxin resumes control, we might as well 'kiss goodbye' to the wonderful Thailand that we knew & 'welcome' the stifling western ways.

Which *wonderful* Thailand?!

The land in which daughters of impoverished farmers from villages of social ethical and moral collapse enter prostitution en masse in an eastern way of materialism? Is not the "eastern way of materialism" an offshoot of how the east has been exposed to western culture? Remember, Thailand has really only been STRONGLY trading with western countries for the past 70 odd years. Earlier connections with the west was more to do with major infrstructure & NOT putting '7-elevens' on every corner.

The land with somewhere around 1 million HIV infected out of a population of a bit more than 60 million? Sexually transmitted diseases have plagued the world since year dot. Nothing has changed. And how does Thailand having a high HIV infection rate make Thailand a 'not so good' place to live? Do you plan on having lots of unsafe sex?

The land with one of the highest murder rates in the world? Maybe if we (the westerners) force our 'control freak' ways on Thailand strong enough, we can have a cop on every corner. Maybe we can install millions of laws & have the same legal nightmare as the western countries do. Maybe in Thailand, if the country is 'lucky' enough, persons can sue other persons for anything. Yep! That's the remedy...lots more laws & hence, much less personal responsibility. This is the Thailand I dream of....NOT!!!!

The land that in typical modern eastern materialism allowed the mighty and powerful to enrich themselves beyond believe so that Thailand together with China has the highest gap between rich and poor in Asia? They were probably a lot happier before they got television & the internet. By comparison only, these 'poor' people think that they are poor.

Thaksin is nothing but a product of his society western influence and a logical consequence of decades of mismanaging the country. And, if you are Thai, and born poor, there never was much *wonderful* about life here. And, no, there is nothing remotely *wonderful* about being poor.

If all I had to worry about was where my next meal came from, I think I'd be a happier man. Many people in Thailand still live like this & I don't think that all of them are unhappy, as you suggest they are.

But, there are no guarantees in life except death. It is a fact that Thailand will ultimately fall to western ideas. Clock watching, money problems, coronary disease, diabetes (obesity), high taxes, forced education, only being able to afford a home if you're rich, political correctness, suing for almost any reason...are all products of the western world, just to name a few. I think that many foreigners come to Thailand to escape this madness. My only hope is that this western influence can be delayed as long as possible, which means getting tough with any government official who wants to use western idealism to feather his eastern nest.

[elkangorito]

Sorry. Double Post due to Flood Control error.

[ando]

Quote -- elkanqorito

"If all I had to worry about was where my next meal came from, I think I'd be a happier man. Many people in Thailand still live like this & I don't think that all of them are unhappy, as you suggest they are.

But, there are no guarantees in life except death. It is a fact that Thailand will ultimately fall to western ideas. Clock watching, money problems, coronary disease, diabetes (obesity), high taxes, forced education, only being able to afford a home if you're rich, political correctness, suing for almost any reason...are all products of the western world, just to name a few. I think that many foreigners come to Thailand to escape this madness. My only hope is that this western influence can be delayed as long as possible, which means getting tough with any government official who wants to use western idealism to feather his eastern nest."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Problem easily solved there elkanqorito. Give away all your money and go live as a peasant Thai farmer and see what a great carefree life they have.

Edited May 8, 2006 by ando

[elkangorito]

Here's an interesting view Colpyat would like, I guess:

Anti-Thaksin rallies must end now

As PAD continues street demonstrations which worsen political instability in the country, it becomes clear that while PAD knows what it is against, it has no idea what it is for

By MATTHEW ARNOLD

The last four months in Thai politics have been a disaster... for everybody. There are no winners in this debacle. The biggest losers are the Thai people, who have seen their country's central governance grind to a halt because of political turmoil.

The ruling party, the Thai Rak Thai, has seen its leader Thaksin Shinawatra effectively ousted from power. Exactly how did PAD 'oust' Toxin? The "mess" of the April 2 election left the country's democratic system in doubt and highlighted serious constitutional ambiguities, to which is one of the things that PAD is reacting. There is in effect no parliament at the moment. The Election Commission is widely seen as being incompetent. His Majesty the King, clearly exasperated by the political situation, recently exclaimed he had "suffered quite a lot" because of it. I would suggest that being 'King' is not without it's "tough times". As a result of this, Thailand's international reputation has been tarnished while domestically the country has been left polarised.

And yet, it appears that the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) wishes to continue with its mass street rallies. One is left wondering, given all the problems facing Thailand, what purpose continued rallies could possibly serve at this moment. What!!! You mean, you don't understand that people are sick of the guy who gags any media for saying things that 'he' doesn't like? One might even be so bold as to question what positive outcomes the country has gained from these protest rallies overall. The 'positive outcome' of all of this is to show future Thai government officials that they can't just do as they please & forget the wishes of the people. What is a given is that the rallies were crucial in helping to instigate the present political situation and hence its harmful consequences. Certainly, PAD cannot be held entirely responsible for the present situation; there is enough blame to go around. Mr Thaksin must bear much responsibility for the crisis because he called such a hasty election _ trying to obfuscate the controversy over his Shin Corp deal _ and in general for fostering an unhealthy, cynical political culture.

Yet, much of this crisis does indeed stem from the arrogant haste and the intransigence of the anti-Thaksin opposition to compromise during February and early March. It is one thing to unceasingly demand the departure of one man. To then see it happen without constitutional due process and still be unable to offer a specific, credible vision for ending the crisis was pathetic. Did PAD somehow force the decision for this legal process? Who did make this decision & why?

PAD helped stir up a proverbial hornet's nest and then seemed rather blase{aac} about the repercussions of that, blaming others and then demanding others also solve the problem. It seems like it wants to pick up a stick and start banging away again. Wouldn't you want to do so if you were sick to death of trying to do things 'legally', only to be thwarted by the intrinsic corruption of these government officials?

It was indeed remarkable that with the country's democratic future thrown into chaos and doubt after the April 2 election, all that PAD did was ask the King to appoint a government _ something he adamantly refused to do since he thought it blatantly undemocratic. It was unfair of PAD to expect the King by himself to resolve a very confused political crisis when it helped to foment it without any care for what might result from its early efforts. What is wrong with asking the one person that you trust in all of these lies, to assist in solving a BIG problem? Nothing 'unfair' about that!

PAD's strident calls for the King to "save" the country highlighted its own lack of a political vision. It has never presented a platform for real change through the political system and instead has done harm by seeking radical change _ such as the ouster of the prime minister without constitutional due process _ through street protests. Do confused & cheated people suddnely need to be educated enough to create a 'platform' of change? All PAD did was to express the concerns of the people. It simply said that Toxin isn't good enough. It simply said that he cannot seem to be ejected by 'legal' means. What other course of action can people take when all confidence in the system has been lost?

It is with this consideration that the strongest critique of PAD can be made. The reason for PAD's failures is that it has become a protest movement defined fundamentally as being against Mr Thaksin as an individual, rather than standing for something, and having a coherent strategy for political reform. While it may be that all "protest" movements ought to be against something, if they are to be conducive to positive change they must offer more than negativity and personal animosity through combative means like street protests. It seems that much of PAD's agenda is driven by personal histories and the loathing of Mr Thaksin by its leadership, rather than the broader consideration for Thailand's political health. This is a shame because there obviously is a lot of sincerity from the common people who participate in PAD rallies and that sincerity is being corrupted by PAD leadership. And many of the 'common people' simply want Toxin out. What is wrong with that, given HIS track record? He is the leader of the party & I would suggest that these 'common people' would also want his party out.

In their defence, many in PAD would argue that Mr Thaksin bears sole responsibility for the crisis because of his alleged corruption and hasty election call, and hence his departure is in itself beneficial to the whole country. He is the leader & therefore he DOES bear sole responsibility. Besides being undemocratic, this is a lame argument in general. Mr Thaksin was an elected leader? who never saw due process that could have ultimately led to his ouster ousting.

Regardless, Mr Thaksin is only one half of a political equation that provoked this national crisis. The PAD street protests are a large part of the other half and a rather unhelpful part at that. Mr Thaksin has many significant faults of his own but all that the country gets from PAD are endless allegations and pretentious demands to change nothing but the prime minister. What's the problem with that? Again, see his 'democratic' method HE used to deal with his disagreers.

This country has an electorate of tens of millions and to make important decisions it needs a quorum of 500 MPs chosen in free elections, not one of 50,000 street protesters in Sanam Luang or Lumpini park in Bangkok. Obviously 50 000 people who feel that their only recourse is to demonstrate in an otherwise 'voiceless' situation, mean nothing.

A calming period would now help the country. It would allow the courts to make thoughtful decisions and then for the country to move forward in a less contentious, less hateful atmosphere. If the 'atmosphere' can persuade the decision of the courts, I think more demonstrations are needed. The demonstrators are actually calling for an unbiased, uncorrupted & appropriately sound legal decision. PAD can still serve a positive role in the reform movement. It can do so by encouraging efforts for political reform based on a coherent platform of political change. The medium for this could be a softer, less abrasive one, such calmly calling for reform through civil society. Let's have years of legal 'toing & froing' before this happens. Get real!!! Let PAD seek incremental steps to reform the political system, rather than demand radical change through street rallies. Continued street rallies serve no purpose other than to aggravate an already polarised situation. Sounds nice but how do you calm down people who are sick of a tyrant?

Even if Mr Thaksin does re-enter the political arena, if PAD is sincere about being a broad alliance of people dedicated to democracy, then let them strive to defeat him at the polling booth (they tried that but it didn't work), not through street rallies. That has been tried and it achieved nothing more than animosity, deadlock, and confusion. Really?

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/08May2006_news20.php

Any comments?

Edited May 8, 2006 by elkangorito

[ColPyat]

If all I had to worry about was where my next meal came from, I think I'd be a happier man. Many people in Thailand still live like this & I don't think that all of them are unhappy, as you suggest they are.

Maybe if you would live here a few years your romantic ideals about Thailand's ills being rooted in the exposure to the west would be replaced by some more realistic attitude.

But yes, as another poster has suggested - if you have such a problem with having more money than you need for your next meal, then i could help you out. You can send me all your money, and i let you live in a bamboo hut on my farm. There'll be rice and vegies if you work for it, and once a while you can pick up some day labor job for 100 or 150 baht. Deal?

[tettyan]

Maybe if you would live here a few years your romantic ideals about Thailand's ills being rooted in the exposure to the west would be replaced by some more realistic attitude.

I don't think having this kind of attitude is related to how long you've been living in Thailand. Many conservative, middle-class Thais (including my mother) also share the same kind of romantic sentiment.

[ColPyat]

I don't think having this kind of attitude is related to how long you've been living in Thailand. Many conservative, middle-class Thais (including my mother) also share the same kind of romantic sentiment.

Hmm, yes, you may be right there.

Actually, you are absolutely right. More than that - this is one of the basic underlying issues resulting in the polarisation of this society, and the inability to deal with the social problems Thailand is facing now, manifested in the political crises (and the many other unspoken-of coming social desasters).

[elkangorito]

Is there suddenly a law against hoping? Or is it that you don't want to see another achieve this level of happiness because you, yourself, can't give up the tiniest part of westernisation?

This is MY hope...not yours. Please don't think for one second that I would expect you or others to do such a thing. I actually think that you couldn't do such a thing in a pink fit.

I did say "if". Somehow you seem threatened by my wish, my hope. Why?

How will me wanting my form of happiness hurt you? How much money do you think I have? Do you purport to know about my current level of affluence or is this just a guess? Why would you want me to uphold your idea of a happy life? Isn't there enough suffering in the world without some people wanting to see others suffer for the purpose of making themselves feel good?

[elkangorito]

I don't think having this kind of attitude is related to how long you've been living in Thailand. Many conservative, middle-class Thais (including my mother) also share the same kind of romantic sentiment.

Hmm, yes, you may be right there.

Actually, you are absolutely right. More than that - this is one of the basic underlying issues resulting in the polarisation of this society, and the inability to deal with the social problems Thailand is facing now, manifested in the political crises (and the many other unspoken-of coming social desasters). Most of which can be attributed to the influence of Western lifestyle (I won't say western culture...it is cultureless....all about money, money, money & more money).

[sriracha john]

^^^ excellent post (Post #104) ^^^

Edited May 8, 2006 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

Is there suddenly a law against hoping? Or is it that you don't want to see another achieve this level of happiness because you, yourself, can't give up the tiniest part of westernisation?

This is MY hope...not yours. Please don't think for one second that I would expect you or others to do such a thing. I actually think that you couldn't do such a thing in a pink fit.

I did say "if". Somehow you seem threatened by my wish, my hope. Why?

How will me wanting my form of happiness hurt you? How much money do you think I have? Do you purport to know about my current level of affluence or is this just a guess? Why would you want me to uphold your idea of a happy life? Isn't there enough suffering in the world without some people wanting to see others suffer for the purpose of making themselves feel good?

So, do we have a deal?

You can live in a bamboo hut on my selfsufficient organic farm out in the sticks, work there, and forget all about money. Well, and you can forget most things that money can buy as well as they will be too expensive for you, including proper healthcare.

If that is your dream - i can make it possible. Nobody will ever ask you for a valid visa there.

[jdinasia]

The Captain is at it again!

[elkangorito]

Is there suddenly a law against hoping? Or is it that you don't want to see another achieve this level of happiness because you, yourself, can't give up the tiniest part of westernisation?

This is MY hope...not yours. Please don't think for one second that I would expect you or others to do such a thing. I actually think that you couldn't do such a thing in a pink fit.

I did say "if". Somehow you seem threatened by my wish, my hope. Why?

How will me wanting my form of happiness hurt you? How much money do you think I have? Do you purport to know about my current level of affluence or is this just a guess? Why would you want me to uphold your idea of a happy life? Isn't there enough suffering in the world without some people wanting to see others suffer for the purpose of making themselves feel good?

So, do we have a deal?

You can live in a bamboo hut on my selfsufficient organic farm out in the sticks, work there, and forget all about money. Well, and you can forget most things that money can buy as well as they will be too expensive for you, including proper healthcare.

If that is your dream - i can make it possible. Nobody will ever ask you for a valid visa there.

Obviously, you will gain some joy out of me (or a similar person) living a life like this because you think that this is an "impoverished" lifestyle. By the way, what you are proposing sounds pretty good...if only I were permitted to do such a thing. Can you really make this possible for me in Thailand, without YOU or me spending some time in a Thai gaol, or being deported? And then, even if I were to be able to do such a thing, people like you would still 'rave on' (not that I would care...afterall, you are the one who will 'watch the clocks' & panic about the slightest ripple on your incorrectly perceived 'calm lake').

You seem to think that all foreigners think just like you. Don't you see how this is narrow minded thinking? I think you need to re-read my post. If you have any trouble understanding it, I'll be happy to translate.

I say 'good luck to the people of Thailand'. They will need it with people like you around, who use politics to turn a wonderful & currently reasonably free country, into an image of the western cesspool of excessive contol & ultimate greed (which Thailand seems to copying very well, thanks to the endorsement of people like Toxin, who use western ideals for obscene profit).

Keep up the narrow mind. The next generation will thank you for all the material possessions & workaholism generated by such lack of thinking.

Edited May 8, 2006 by elkangorito

[LaoPo]

Is there suddenly a law against hoping? Or is it that you don't want to see another achieve this level of happiness because you, yourself, can't give up the tiniest part of westernisation?

This is MY hope...not yours. Please don't think for one second that I would expect you or others to do such a thing. I actually think that you couldn't do such a thing in a pink fit.

I did say "if". Somehow you seem threatened by my wish, my hope. Why?

How will me wanting my form of happiness hurt you? How much money do you think I have? Do you purport to know about my current level of affluence or is this just a guess? Why would you want me to uphold your idea of a happy life? Isn't there enough suffering in the world without some people wanting to see others suffer for the purpose of making themselves feel good?

So, do we have a deal?

You can live in a bamboo hut on my selfsufficient organic farm out in the sticks, work there, and forget all about money. Well, and you can forget most things that money can buy as well as they will be too expensive for you, including proper healthcare.

If that is your dream - i can make it possible. Nobody will ever ask you for a valid visa there.

Come on, give the guy a break; the least you can do is add a Mia Noi for him; she can take care of him when he comes home with a broken back in the evening working his _ss off for you in the fields

LaoPo

[elkangorito]

Is there suddenly a law against hoping? Or is it that you don't want to see another achieve this level of happiness because you, yourself, can't give up the tiniest part of westernisation?

This is MY hope...not yours. Please don't think for one second that I would expect you or others to do such a thing. I actually think that you couldn't do such a thing in a pink fit.

I did say "if". Somehow you seem threatened by my wish, my hope. Why?

How will me wanting my form of happiness hurt you? How much money do you think I have? Do you purport to know about my current level of affluence or is this just a guess? Why would you want me to uphold your idea of a happy life? Isn't there enough suffering in the world without some people wanting to see others suffer for the purpose of making themselves feel good?

So, do we have a deal?

You can live in a bamboo hut on my selfsufficient organic farm out in the sticks, work there, and forget all about money. Well, and you can forget most things that money can buy as well as they will be too expensive for you, including proper healthcare.

If that is your dream - i can make it possible. Nobody will ever ask you for a valid visa there.

Come on, give the guy a break; the least you can do is add a Mia Noi for him; she can take care of him when he comes home with a broken back in the evening working his _ss off for you in the fields

LaoPo

[ando]

I don't think having this kind of attitude is related to how long you've been living in Thailand. Many conservative, middle-class Thais (including my mother) also share the same kind of romantic sentiment.

Hmm, yes, you may be right there.

Actually, you are absolutely right. More than that - this is one of the basic underlying issues resulting in the polarisation of this society, and the inability to deal with the social problems Thailand is facing now, manifested in the political crises (and the many other unspoken-of coming social desasters).

I think this is exactly where Thailand is right now. At the crux of a divergence between power held by the old minority upper class Thais and the power true democracy gives to the masses who are mainly the poor servant class. True democracy poses a big threat to the minority ruling class.

It is ironic that Thaksin who is an obvious right wing capitalist was the only one to exploit democracy in order to gain political power and thus further his own needs. Thailand is at a crossroads now, the political powers to be can either accept that the up country peasants constitute the majority of voters and give them a fairer deal, or they can hope for some kind of a revolution through street protests in Bangkok, or a Royally appointed PM to circumvent democracy. At the moment it looks like the democratic process has gone too far to turn back the clock for the old money class.

I think this fiasco will be seen in history as the turning point where Thailand ceased to be ruled at the whim of revolutions by internal powerbrokers and gained true democracy. This conflict has been a real test of the old style of government where the minority rule verses the majority vote. Thaksin has put democracy into the equation and that has really upset some of the middle class minority in Bangkok.

Thailand may never be the same after this, but it will be a better and more fairer society, even if the cost of a house servant does have to rise for the wealthy upper class.

Edited May 8, 2006 by ando

[ColPyat]

Obviously, you will gain some joy out of me (or a similar person) living a life like this because you think that this is an "impoverished" lifestyle. By the way, what you are proposing sounds pretty good...if only I were permitted to do such a thing. Can you really make this possible for me in Thailand, without YOU or me spending some time in a Thai gaol, or being deported? And then, even if I were to be able to do such a thing, people like you would still 'rave on' (not that I would care...afterall, you are the one who will 'watch the clocks' & panic about the slightest ripple on your incorrectly perceived 'calm lake').

You seem to think that all foreigners think just like you. Don't you see how this is narrow minded thinking? I think you need to re-read my post. If you have any trouble understanding it, I'll be happy to translate.

I say 'good luck to the people of Thailand'. They will need it with people like you around, who use politics to turn a wonderful & currently reasonably free country, into an image of the western cesspool of excessive contol & ultimate greed (which Thailand seems to copying very well, thanks to the endorsement of people like Toxin, who use western ideals for obscene profit).

Keep up the narrow mind. The next generation will thank you for all the material possessions & workaholism generated by such lack of thinking.

Yes, what i propose i can make possible.

You would only have to spend time in jail until you get deported if you would decide that life in abject poverty is not for you. While living on our farm nobody would bother you with visa questions, police does not enter the areas, and would not care anyhow as it is their policy not to upset clan politics. That includes not investigating the many murders as well, 'ya know, the Asian way. So, better take care not to get into trouble with anyone there, as people solve those conflicts the Asian way.

Other than that, calm down, your assumptions on me and my life are based on your own emotions, and have no bearing on reality. I am not exactly your highflying expat slaving away in a 15 hour a day management position.

[ColPyat]

Come on, give the guy a break; the least you can do is add a Mia Noi for him; she can take care of him when he comes home with a broken back in the evening working his _ss off for you in the fields

LaoPo

Well, i alredy wonder how many years it'll take for him to save up enough to afford the singsot for a wife - and you already come up with a Mia Noi!

Give the bloke some rest.

Edited May 8, 2006 by ColPyat

[ColPyat]

Thailand may never be the same after this, but it will be a better and more fairer society, even if the cost of a house servant does have to rise for the wealthy upper class.

We will have to wait and see.

I am less optimistic than you. So far, i do not see yet any political power in Thailand seriously tackling the enormous issues of rural poverty, landrights and social injustice. If they wait any longer i fear that not much can be done anymore.

[the gent]

Elkiebrooks is a reconstructed hippie and probably dropping too much acid. Baling out of the rat race to Thailand is his time warp destination where he can reacquaint himself with his inner peace.

Why spoil the guy's illusions with reality. Most farang folk here couldn't give a rat's arse about Thailand, " this wonderful and reasonably free country " nor its problems. They, unlike Elkie, are here to get in touch with their ' inner wallet ' and live a life of Western pleasure unavailable back home.

Politically, it's a feudal society in which the polloi are enslaved for the benefit of the barons to whom they pay obeisance both socially and economically. Redistribution of wealth, and the benefits that ensue, does not occur voluntarily but only as a result of the deprived seizing their share. This involves conflict so in that sense the PAD could be a start but I suspect that it is a false one and probably just a reversion to factional politics in which the same barons continue to rape and pillage albeit in shares that do not give rise to another Thaksin.

Thailand is a curious case in geo political terms. Truth be told, if it was left to its own devices post WW2 an agrarian revolution may have propelled it into the 19th Century but its vulnerability to corrupting Uncle Sam soon stopped that. Unfortunately, the consequences now are no less apparent than they were 60 years ago except the majority have just as little but it costs them rather more to keep it.

In my book you can't beat a good civil war to upset the status quo and Thailand is due theirs despite the quaint notions of dopey romantics such as Elkie who evidently believes in the nobility of endless toil without any of the benefits.

He's probably got a tattoo and a silly ring inserted God knows where......

Edited May 8, 2006 by the gent

[Plus]

"Police Detain Sondhi, BREAKING NEWS"

Why people flood the thread with irrelevant debates that elsewhere have been proven to be endless in nature?

>>>>>>>>

Back to the Bangkok Post article posted yesterday:

The last four months in Thai politics have been a disaster... for everybody. There are no winners in this debacle. The biggest losers are the Thai people, who have seen their country's central governance grind to a halt because of political turmoil.

Those ten odd millions who wanted to see the back of Thaksin don't feel like they lost, do they? Current turmoil is going to be over with new elections in a couple of months, not a bad trade off.

The ruling party, the Thai Rak Thai, has seen its leader Thaksin Shinawatra effectively ousted from power. The "mess" of the April 2 election left the country's democratic system in doubt and highlighted serious constitutional ambiguities. There is in effect no parliament at the moment. The Election Commission is widely seen as being incompetent. His Majesty the King, clearly exasperated by the political situation, recently exclaimed he had "suffered quite a lot" because of it. As a result of this, Thailand's international reputation has been tarnished while domestically the country has been left polarised.

A result of what exactly? Is the country polarised because of HM's recent comments? EC's incompetence? Absense of parliament? "Mess" of April 2 elections? Thaksin being ousted from power?

The writer seems to miss that the country is polarised because of Thaksin's unethical and evidently illegal behavior while in power. The writer somehow avoids tracing the above mentioned dire consequences to their root.

And yet, it appears that the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) wishes to continue with its mass street rallies. One is left wondering, given all the problems facing Thailand, what purpose continued rallies could possibly serve at this moment.

The writer seems to miss the fact that there have been no mass street rallies for over a month now, only low key "explain ourselves to the public" affairs organised by well known people who are not welcome on any national news channels.

One might even be so bold as to question what positive outcomes the country has gained from these protest rallies overall.

With that question one might not be bold but stupid, or at least ignorant of importance of Thaksin's removal and dismantling "Thaksinism" as a system of government, and importance of a new round of political reforms.

What is a given is that the rallies were crucial in helping to instigate the present political situation and hence its harmful consequences.

... and all the possible positive outcomes, too

Certainly, PAD cannot be held entirely responsible for the present situation;

It's difficult to see how PAD is responsible for dissolving the parliament that is the sole cause of the constitutional impasse we are in now.

Yet, much of this crisis does indeed stem from the arrogant haste and the intransigence of the anti-Thaksin opposition to compromise during February and early March. It is one thing to unceasingly demand the departure of one man. To then see it happen without constitutional due process and still be unable to offer a specific, credible vision for ending the crisis was pathetic.

There's absolutely nothing unconstitutional about Thaksin's resignation, in Thailand the PM doesn't have to go through any constitutional process to resign. And the writer misses the point that the crisis has nothing to do with Thaksin's resignation - it had no bearing on the election process whatsoever. The elections failed by themselves.

It was indeed remarkable that with the country's democratic future thrown into chaos and doubt after the April 2 election, all that PAD did was ask the King to appoint a government _ something he adamantly refused to do since he thought it blatantly undemocratic.

PAD asked for Royal intervention and Royally sponsored government. They got the first part, HM's intervention, and the things quickly got back on track after that. Royally appointed PM was one of the solutions to the mess, not the ultimate goal. Getting courts to sort it out is a solution proposed by the King. No one else could order the courts to get involved.

PAD didn't lose anything here, it's not a "back to absolute monarchy" movement.

It was unfair of PAD to expect the King by himself to resolve a very confused political crisis when it helped to foment it without any care for what might result from its early efforts.

Even in hindsight, was there any other way of removing Thaksin? PAD correctly predicted that all other power centers in the country were corrupted and offered no hope at all. Would the courts nullify the elections if not for HM's address? Would Thaksin resign one day after declaring victory and announcing his future plans if not for a trip to meet HM in Hua Hin?

PAD's strident calls for the King to "save" the country highlighted its own lack of a political vision. It has never presented a platform for real change through the political system...

Maybe because it's not a political organisation and the current system was hopelessly corrupt to bring any change without outside influence?

The reason for PAD's failures is that it has become a protest movement defined fundamentally as being against Mr Thaksin as an individual, rather than standing for something, and having a coherent strategy for political reform.

Thaksin's resignation has been the only PAD's contidion all along. It appears the author is two months late in arriving to his "conclusion".

What PAD failures?

The reform will go ahead with or without PAD's participation, there are enough forces to push for reform outside of PAD.

While it may be that all "protest" movements ought to be against something, if they are to be conducive to positive change they must offer more than negativity and personal animosity through combative means like street protests.

We don't have a shortage of ideas of what and how should be reformed, do we? Maybe the writer is not aware of them, though.

It seems that much of PAD's agenda is driven by personal histories and the loathing of Mr Thaksin by its leadership, rather than the broader consideration for Thailand's political health. This is a shame because there obviously is a lot of sincerity from the common people who participate in PAD rallies and that sincerity is being corrupted by PAD leadership.

At its height PAD's agenda appealed to millions and millions of people. Perhaps all them had "personal histories and loathing of Mr Thaksin" to drive them, and perhaps "broader consideration for Thailand's political health" was there too. Perhaps the writer doesn't realise how bad Thaksin's system of governance really is and how no broader political health is possible without dismantling it.

In their defence, many in PAD would argue that Mr Thaksin bears sole responsibility for the crisis because of his alleged corruption and hasty election call, and hence his departure is in itself beneficial to the whole country. Besides being undemocratic, this is a lame argument in general.

Does "undemocratic" refer to the argument or Thaksin's departure? How can the argument be "undemocratic"? Thaksin's promise of not taking PMship is not "undemocratic" either. He wasn't directly elected by people, like in a presidential system. No one questions constitutionality of his "resignation" promise, it was his personal decision. All sorts of factors can influence personal decisions - admission of guilt and responsibility, widesperad public protests, advice of senior persons, whatever.

Mr Thaksin was an elected leader who never saw due process that could have ultimately led to his ouster.

It's not like Mr Thaksin was denied due process. It's more like Mr Thaksin REFUSED to submit himself to due process! Where was the author in late January and February?

Regardless, Mr Thaksin is only one half of a political equation that provoked this national crisis. The PAD street protests are a large part of the other half and a rather unhelpful part at that.

Where does the authour see "political equation"? Thaksin and PAD have "cause-effect" relationships. Without Thaksin's transgressions there would be no PAD.

Mr Thaksin has many significant faults of his own but all that the country gets from PAD are endless allegations and pretentious demands to change nothing but the prime minister.

This is certainly not true. Perhaps the author is not aware of wide calls for political reform, perhaps he intentionally omits them. Perhaps the author is not aware of Thaksin's real position within TRT, perhaps he intentionally omits the fact that many corrupt pricatices will not be possible without Thaksin at the helm. Removing Thaksin is surely not only changing Prime Minister's name.

This country has an electorate of tens of millions and to make important decisions it needs a quorum of 500 MPs chosen in free elections, not one of 50,000 street protesters in Sanam Luang or Lumpini park in Bangkok.

Perhaps the author have missed that in this crisis all most important decisions were directly and indirectly influenced by a single person only, HM the King of Thailand, and that was enough of a quorum, and nobody disputed the decisions afterwards.

Even if Mr Thaksin does re-enter the political arena, if PAD is sincere about being a broad alliance of people dedicated to democracy, then let them strive to defeat him at the polling booth, not through street rallies.

Here we go again. The author forgets defeat in courts. Mr Thaksin should answer charges against him in courts, not in polls.

[elkangorito]

Elkiebrooks is a reconstructed hippie and probably dropping too much acid. Baling out of the rat race to Thailand is his time warp destination where he can reacquaint himself with his inner peace.

Why spoil the guy's illusions with reality. Most farang folk here couldn't give a rat's arse about Thailand, " this wonderful and reasonably free country " nor its problems. They, unlike Elkie, are here to get in touch with their ' inner wallet ' and live a life of Western pleasure unavailable back home.

Politically, it's a feudal society in which the polloi are enslaved for the benefit of the barons to whom they pay obeisance both socially and economically. Redistribution of wealth, and the benefits that ensue, does not occur voluntarily but only as a result of the deprived seizing their share. This involves conflict so in that sense the PAD could be a start but I suspect that it is a false one and probably just a reversion to factional politics in which the same barons continue to rape and pillage albeit in shares that do not give rise to another Thaksin.

Thailand is a curious case in geo political terms. Truth be told, if it was left to its own devices post WW2 an agrarian revolution may have propelled it into the 19th Century but its vulnerability to corrupting Uncle Sam soon stopped that. Unfortunately, the consequences now are no less apparent than they were 60 years ago except the majority have just as little but it costs them rather more to keep it.

In my book you can't beat a good civil war to upset the status quo and Thailand is due theirs despite the quaint notions of dopey romantics such as Elkie who evidently believes in the nobility of endless toil without any of the benefits.

He's probably got a tattoo and a silly ring inserted God knows where......

No tattoo & no silly ring. Sorry to disappoint you.

On the other hand, when the dust has settled after the 'civil war', come & see me. I may be able to help you to realise some 'true' happiness...how to live without your western commodities, because there won't be many western comforts after such a war.

I'm actually flattered that you called me a 'hippie'. Even though I'm nothing of the sort, it is gratifying to know that I am not like you.

Anyway, I hope that you can find your happiness in your world of money & material possession. I really do!! I've tried it & it doesn't work for me...or most of the other people who I know. They told me that they consider themselves to be 'stuck' in it, somehow.

Funny about some people when you really get to know them.

"Toxin out...democracy in". (but who can trust any politician?)

[jdinasia]

I wonder how long this baiting and off topic rambling will continue?

[elkangorito]

I wonder how long this baiting and off topic rambling will continue?

Not too long. I'm growing weary of dumbness