So Much For Constructive Engagement

[davidm]

Cast your minds back to last summer, and you may recall Iran - a member of the "Axis of Evil" - was unusually quiet and acquiescent to western diplomacy (by its own low standards). Why? Was it fear of the US and British forces on two of its borders? Or the prospect of a genuine constructive dialogue with the EU?

America was rather preoccupied at the time with pacifying Iraq and preparing for the introduction of democracy and grudgingly allowed the EU to take the initiative. Britain, with a socialist government which wants to remain a close ally of America and continental Europe, supported the EU dialogue.

What has this initiative achieved? The hardliners in Iran have removed the relatively moderate muslims from power, banned most of them from even standing for public office. Shi ite extremists have spurned any calls for a more secular form of government.

By any standards, this should be regarded as a failure for constructive engagement. All the EU has done is divide the west in its handling of the threat from extremists. This isn't the first time, the EU has screwed up in foreign policy. Its handling of the break up of Yugoslavia was disastrous. German insistence in supporting its former WWII ally, Croatia, led to a bloody civil war.

[Boon Mee]

The Balkans have and always will be a mess. How Madaline Albright & Slick Willy were able to carry out misson without UN sanction and not be roundly condemed is a mystery.

The EU is basically, as Donald Rumsfeld said, Old Europe. Stagnant & ineffective...

[Basher]

The EU is basically, as Donald Rumsfeld said, Old Europe. Stagnant & ineffective...

What utter crap!

Europe is growing rapidly and is the only significant competition to an overbearing and scarey US occupation force, remiscient of Hitlers Annexation of other countries for living space... ie any excuse will do to allow an invation.

just look how wonderfully the $ has been performing recently.... and how much the Euro has grown in stength and stature.

Who will the King od America decide to invade next?

[Basher]

The EU is basically, as Donald Rumsfeld said, Old Europe. Stagnant & ineffective...

And what the he11 are you doing bringing that old <deleted> into a forum?

Put an SS uniform on him and he is Himler, to a T

Scarey Scarey people....

[davidm]

Basher the first part of your post shows we're so far apart in opinion there's no point in discussing further.

just look how wonderfully the $ has been performing recently.... and how much the Euro has grown in stength and stature.

I think this is a basic misconception. The weaker dollar is actually good for the US economy for two reasons. First, it makes American exports more competitive. Second, America is in an almost unique (oxymoron, I know but best way to describe quickly) situation of having nearly all of its debt based on its own currency. The weaker the currency, the less its old debt is worth. If lenders decide to switch curencies for future loans, an appreciation in the dollar will have the same effect.

The Eurozone is being squeezed out of global markets because its currency is too strong. I think you'll find most Europeans would love to see the euro decline in value by 10-15%.

BTW, Europe's economies are stagnating. Growth in Germany will be less than 1% this year. France is in similar shape. They've been this way for years.

[Georgie-Porgie]

Europe is growing rapidly and is the only significant competition to an overbearing and scarey US occupation force, remiscient of Hitlers Annexation of other countries for living space... ie any excuse will do to allow an invation.

just look how wonderfully the $ has been performing recently.... and how much the Euro has grown in stength and stature.

If the Euro is so gal-danged wonderful, why don't your fellow Englishmen want to sign up?

[the gentleman]

Europe is growing rapidly and is the only significant competition to an overbearing and scarey US occupation force, remiscient of Hitlers Annexation of other countries for living space... ie any excuse will do to allow an invation.

just look how wonderfully the $ has been performing recently.... and how much the Euro has grown in stength and stature.

If the Euro is so gal-danged wonderful, why don't your fellow Englishman want to sign up?

Because Dr Evil, the pound is even stronger! - why would they want to join it now

Dont worry about him Bash, he is sticking up for mini me, they are joined at the legs, thats Dr Evils attempt at sarcasm, with a hint of patriotic idiot thrown in.

[Georgie-Porgie]

Because the pound is even stronger!

Pop-up Dummy to the rescue!

[Basher]

If the Euro is so gal-danged wonderful, why don't your fellow Englishmen want to sign up?

Dr Evil, I was just being comparative, and as the Gent says why sign up to a weaker currency, there will have to be a referendum before any decision is made there, look back to previous post on what referendums are..... you lot don't have them do ya, the King of America has the say in all that, not the people.

Davey, yes I know the Frog and Jerry ecconomies are stagnant, have been eversince the absorbsion of the eastern bloke countries, I was just seppo bashing mate.

I also realise the Balkan issue is a he!! of a mess, but I was quoting Mini Mees Rumsfeld rubbish, not your well written piece.

The good old $, well sadly I still get paid in $$$$s so I am suffering myself with about an 8% paycut with the B-$ exchange, but with any luck the Jews that control the purse strings in the US will allow it to build again, slowing export I know, but they will have sold enough arms to the next country they want to invade (via Hallibut of course, again) so their ecconomy will be strong enough for the next leg of the world domination game.

spinning in circles..... it all comes back to the big red H .... isn't that weird??

[Georgie-Porgie]

Does all that mumbo-jumbo mean that the good ol' U.S.A. still dominates the planet, militarily and economically?

[bigwetpatch]

interestingly Britain spends more $/£ as a %of GDP than the US does on Defence, from memory somewhere around 4% to the US' 3%

but then the GDP of the UK is probably only 3% of the US'

Yes indeed the US is militarily and economically stronger than everyone else. ( though they are secretly scared of China, and wont really do much about North Korea either come to that) and the everyone else includes of course Britain.

what it has substantially less of is culture, heritage and history.

I was tempted to put in the joke about there being more culture in a tub of yogourt than in all the USA. ( Australia too come to think of it), but I wont.

[the gentleman]

yes big wet patch you are right - you have got so much culture in England, I agree - I especially like the chinese chippy, the pakistany corner shops and the Alanbanian pimps in London - I also like Whitby Abbey, Whitley Bay, Robin Hood Bay, York, the lakes district and all of my familys heritage that dates back to the 1200's, who were the border clans "working for the English", so as for you to save your English Heritage - You will find, my friend, we all have the same heritage and it started in Africa.

[bigwetpatch]

not exactly sure if the above is meant to be an attack or not. Some interesting points raised.

I believe the current opinion has our origins in Africa, it appears some of just did a better job during evolution stage.

[the gentleman]

not exactly sure if the above is meant to be an attack or not. Some interesting points raised.

I believe the current opinion has our origins in Africa, it appears some of just did a better job during evolution stage.

No mate, definately not an attack, agreeing with you to a point, but whilst the English were out conquering the world, the gate was left unattended and now London isnt owned by English - I say that tongue in cheek as well mate. I have an English born daughter and my grandfather was also English, so I am steeped in English heritage and I love the place. I have probably seen more of England, that most English as I travelled from London up the M1 and deverted to all the lovely places along the way. I must admit though, driving through England, is like a Sunday drive to the beach for an Aussie

yes some of us did a better job during evolution - I agree

There is also DNA proof that we originated in Africa (scarey thought) and most of our ancestors waited out the weather in Russia and then started the journeys to the Americas and Europe, but the Aboriginal side didnt go that far north to wait it out - they reached Oz 40,000 years ago.

[the gentleman]

Does all that mumbo-jumbo mean that the good ol' U.S.A. still dominates the planet, militarily and economically? 

Fly that flag at half mast and get your tongue out of your own ear. You do sound like Dr Evil, but he was funny,he also wanted to "dominate all" - when I want you to express an opinion, Ill let you know, and If I want sh1t from you, Ill squeeze your head - ok I now give you permission to post something more

[Axel]

Does all that mumbo-jumbo mean that the good ol' U.S.A. still dominates the planet, militarily and economically?

militarily a strong may be.

economically, take a loan from Chrysler, gues they can afford to support above.

[Boon Mee]

The EU is basically, as Donald Rumsfeld said, Old Europe.  Stagnant & ineffective...

And what the he11 are you doing bringing that old <deleted> into a forum?

Put an SS uniform on him and he is Himler, to a T

Scarey Scarey people....

Maybe that's what "Old Europe" needs right now - another little man from Austria!

What HAVE the Euroweenies accmplished of late. Let's see... Their Mars rover "sh1t-the-bed", their areospace program is going down the tubes - about the only thing that works effectively over there is their arms sales to shadow gonverments and terrorists!

Boon Mee

[Georgie-Porgie]

what it has substantially less of is culture, heritage and history.

I was tempted to put in the joke about there being more culture in a tub of yogourt than in all the USA. ( Australia too come to think of it), but I wont.

Euroweenies love to try this one on, but the truth is that the difference between our culture and yours is, our culture is still alive, still growing, changing , experimenting, getting better.

Our culture changes the world every single day.

The US doesn't have any culture? Ever hear of jazz? Rock and Roll? Rap? Hip-Hop?

Who has the best authors in the world?

Who has the biggest and the best movie industry?

Which city has better restaurants than New York? Better plays? A bigger art scene?

As far as History? We haven't been around as long as Europe, but we've accomplished a he11 of a lot, in the short time that we've been here! Haven't we?!

[meadish_sweetball]

As far as History? We haven't been around as long as Europe, but we've accomplished a he11 of a lot, in the short time that we've been here!  Haven't we?!

Yee-hah! You sure have, Georgie. Keep going, never look back, never reflect, and your short-sighted and money-grubbing ideology will succeed beautifully in killing us all one way or the other, except for the 10,000 souls bombarded by cosmic radiation, struggling to survive on another planet which was never meant for human colonization in the first place.

If you truly aspire to be world leaders, first get your tongue out of the oil companies ass and the myth of your own superiority, please. We need clean energy and thoughtful leadership, not war-mongering, Old Testament-toting fanatics hiding behind the veil of democracy.

Cheers.

[bigwetpatch]

Our culture changes the world every single day. 

OK I'll have to take your word on that...

The US doesn't have any culture? Ever hear of jazz? Rock and Roll? Rap? Hip-Hop?

HIP HOP.....do me a favour!!! are we compating Eminem with Bach or Mozart?

Who has the best authors in the world?

Who has the biggest and the best movie industry?

Which city has better restaurants than New York? Better plays? A bigger art scene?

Authors: Britain...without question and you know it..Christ did you ever try and read that drivel by Herman Melville

Movie Industy: India --bollywood is substantially bigger than hollywood. and although subjective, probably put out better films too.

Better Restaurants: Melbourne. Better Plays: London. Bigger Art scene: what sort of art are we talking about here? painting?

As I said Tub of yogourt

[meadish_sweetball]

Movie Industy: India --bollywood is substantially bigger than hollywood. and although subjective, probably put out better films too.

Although I agree with your general purpose, I think saying that Bollywood is superior to Hollywood is stretching the truth a little bit.

Nevertheless, there is nothing like an Indian muscial/epic film to cure an old moody fart on the argy-bargy side.

[the gentleman]

"Our culture changes the world every single day. "

Whether the world likes it or not!

[Georgie-Porgie]

If you truly aspire to be world leaders, first get your tongue out of the oil companies ass and the myth of your own superiority, please. We need clean energy and thoughtful leadership, not war-mongering, Old Testament-toting fanatics hiding behind the veil of democracy.

We are the world leaders, which means that we are by definition superior, and also we are the best chance you will ever have of getting the caring, thinking type of leadership that you say that you require.

We are the most compassionate Super-Power that the planet has ever known.

However, the truth is, that power comes from oil and justice comes from the barrel of a gun, so you will have to excuse us for being realistic and dealing with the world as it actually exists.

Good and evil.

Not new-age, pretend bullshit.

[Axel]

George-Porgie, now this is quite a statement.

"Hail Me, For I Am Caesar" comes to my mind.

BTW, Ceasar also said:

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.

"And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.

"How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

-- Julius Caesar

(I log out now, have to leave cyberspace and go to the real world. C U guys.)

[Georgie-Porgie]

The US doesn't have any culture? Ever hear of jazz? Rock and Roll? Rap? Hip-Hop?

HIP HOP.....do me a favour!!! are we compating Eminem with Bach or Mozart?

Bach and Mozart are dead and gone. Bob Dylan is still making music.

Who has the best authors in the world?

Who has the biggest and the best movie industry?

Which city has better restaurants than New York? Better plays? A bigger art scene?

Authors: Britain...without question and you know it..Christ did you ever try and read that drivel by Herman Melville?

Herman Melville lived long, long ago. Try this century.

How about Toni Morrison? Alice Walker, Kurt Vonnegut Jr.? John Irving? J.D. Sallinger? Harper Lee? Steinback? Hemingway? Henry Miller? Faulkner? Robert Pirzig? Joseph Heller?

I can go on for pages you know.

Movie Industy: India --bollywood is substantially bigger than hollywood. and although subjective, probably put out better films too.

Silly, silly. Not even worth an answer.

Better Restaurants: Melbourne.

Hilarious!

Better Plays: London

Maybe, as good. Not better.

[Georgie-Porgie]

George-Porgie, now this is quite a statement.

Really? It's still true.

[Guest The Judge]

You guys are so funny. No wonder IT rips into you. LOL

[Georgie-Porgie]

what it has substantially less of is culture, heritage and history.

I was tempted to put in the joke about there being more culture in a tub of yogourt than in all the USA. ( Australia too come to think of it), but I wont.

Euroweenies love to try this one on, but the truth is that the difference between our culture and yours is, our culture is still alive, still growing, changing , experimenting, getting better.

Our culture changes the world every single day.

The US doesn't have any culture? Ever hear of jazz? Rock and Roll? Rap? Hip-Hop?

Who has the best authors in the world?

Who has the biggest and the best movie industry?

Which city has better restaurants than New York? Better plays? A bigger art scene?

As far as History? We haven't been around as long as Europe, but we've accomplished a he11 of a lot, in the short time that we've been here! Haven't we?!

Because I have deftly swiped away each attempt to refute this post by ignorant Euro-trash, I am re-posting it.

[bigwetpatch]

oh you have posted it twice I must be important. I am "ignorant eurotrash" am I...OK.

I have yet to decend to your levels and will try resolutely not to,

instead I will answer your observations with a few more of my own.

Whether you like it or not Bombay produces more films/year than does Hollywood. I believe it is substantially more. Maybe not the same level of FX, and certainly lower budget. But who is really to say what is better. Subjective.

Bob Dylan???? you are taking the micheal sir. Bach and Mozart are more alive.

As for the american literature, no doubt some decent authors in your list, and although an ignoramous i have even read some of them.

I dont understand the comments about restaurants would you please clarify.

[Boon Mee]

[

Maybe Bombay produces more films every year than Hollwood but who watches that crap. Sometimes what comes outa Hollywood isn't all great but I'd rather watch something like "The Passion of Christ" than some dumb Indian war epic.

Do you really think Mel Gibson would've produced "The Passion" in India?

Boon Mee