Need qualify electrician to troubleshoot/fix issues in Bangkok house

[pancakeman]

In our newly built house in Bangkok (90% paid up) we are having some electrical issues; that the builder seems unable/unqualified/unwilling to properly troubleshoot or fix.

House should have a 3 phase hookup; although I am not knowledgeable to know if this has been hooked up correctly.

From my layman's experimentation there appears to be a ground fault where there is a constant positive charge on the ground line which is also leaking to the neutral line, this is cause a number of issue such as:

- General random electric shocks from pipes/faucets/sinks etc...

- Some lights remaining slightly on when switched off

- Safe-T-Cut switch cannot be connected (or it just trips immediately)

- Lights/fans/etc flicker when using water heater/water pump, and I can't keep my computer on for more than 30 minutes unless connect to a UPS

- Measurable current between neutral/ground at the plugs, or ground to TV cables etc...

I consider this to be a serious and possibly very dangerous situation, but the builder and "electricians" involved seem extremely nonchalant that basically it's just "normal", the shocks don't hurt much, and I should just get used to it.

We even hired an independent inspector, who we explained to that we had an electrical problem, to come to check/find the problem. Their inspection costs about 15K baht and they basically came and opened/closed doors and pulled up my drain covers. They looked at the electrically issues for 30 minutes and told me it was "static electric" and shouldn't worry about it (guys were absolutely clueless)

I'm kind of at the end of my rope with all the electricians that have been on site, they seem to have almost no knowledge (less than what I would consider normal high school understanding of electrical circuits) and they want to get you chasing your tale on any random non-issue they can blame it on.

Money is really no object at this point as I need the issue fixed and will cut cost from final payment to the builder.

Is anyone, or can they recommend a qualified electrician with 3 phase experience that can come to troubleshoot/fix an issue like this in Bangkok?

Edited November 8, 2013 by pancakeman

[rgs2001uk]

Is this a self built house or one from a developer?

Reason I ask, do you have the house wiring diagram and specs?

Is this what the Thais refer to as "fai shot", do you have to reset a breaker?

Anyway try this dude, he speaks a little English, but best get your mrs to translate.

081 752 2698, the name is Wut.

[olfu]

Give us some pictures and I will troubleshoot over the internet for free.

main panel view, any circuit breakers?

3 phase or single phase?

its easy to troubleshoot if you have circuit breakers.

if you have skype and meter i will find problem and tell you how to fix it.

[Crossy]

As it's a new build I suspect you have a number of issues:-

1. Ground rod not connected / absent (has the builder used the structural steel as a ground?)
2. A Neutral - Ground fault
3. Possibly an incorrectly wired Safe-T-Cut
4. Lights with the switch in the neutral
5. Any combination of the above

Good luck diagnosing those over the net olfu!

[pancakeman]

To answer some questions:

- House is self-built in the sense that we hired a builder to build it (not part of a moobaan/development etc...)

- Connection is supposed to be 3 phase, but is still on temporary meter, permanent meter to be hooked up this week

- House has a 2 meter copper *looks like copper* ground rod, but electrician has since installed about 4 more ground rods (one for each water heater) as they thought this might solve the issue

Here are some pictures of the main panels (there are 2 panels) and SafeTCut.

Note that the sate-t-cut trip box cannot be put in place without tripping the system, also something that looks odd to me is multiple wires between the neutral and ground buses in both boxes (may be hard to see from pictures)

Also note that the crap load of wires coming out the bottom left corner are related to TV/LAN/alarm/CCTV/etc...

[Crossy]

There should not be ANY wires between neutral and ground EXCEPT on the incoming side of the SafeT-Cut.

Look at the instructions for the Safe-T-Cut to see how the electrical authority expects the N and E to be fed, or look at page 12 (pdf page 10) of this document http://www.crossy.co.uk/Handy%20Files/groundwire.pdf

EDIT There seems to be a N-E link in at least one of the panels, this will guarantee that the Safe-T-Cut trips every time even a small load is applied.

Just to make it clear, there should be only one N-E link and that should be on the incoming side of the Safe-T-Cut. Remove the links in the two panels and that should stop the Safe-T-Cut tripping, next issue the shocks

[olfu]

ok.

how to do this without meter/voltmeter: keep on main circuit breaker on, shut off all small circuit breakers, now check with your finger if are zapped where you been zapped before.

I you zapped your main breaker wires not wired properly, if you not zapped your problem is after small breaker,

now start turning on small breakers on one by one and check for zapping, when you find one check the wires and whats on end.

more likely one of the appliances is not connected properly.

but its possible even main breaker wires are mixed up.

remember--if everything wired properly you dont need grounding at all, so adding ground rods is useless as they are for future protection.

[Crossy]

Olfu.

I know you're trying to help, but I suggest that is it extremely unwise to go poking ones fingers around a system that is potentially lethal, the point that has "zapped before" may be just that little bit "zappier" this time and kill someone.

As a minimum our OP should get himself a neon screwdriver, at least this can be touched to a live wire in reasonable safety.

And to suggest that "you don't need grounding at all" is unprofessional at best! Please explain to me how an appliance marked "this appliance must be earthed" can be run safely without a ground. Get as technical as you like.

[pancakeman]

Olfu.

I know you're trying to help, but I suggest that is it extremely unwise to go poking ones fingers around a system that is potentially lethal, the point that has "zapped before" may be just that little bit "zappier" this time and kill someone.

As a minimum our OP should get himself a neon screwdriver, at least this can be touched to a live wire in reasonable safety.

And to suggest that "you don't need grounding at all" is unprofessional at best! Please explain to me how an appliance marked "this appliance must be earthed" can be run safely without a ground. Get as technical as you like.

Thanks for your help crossy, not to worry I already have a multi-meter and neon screwdriver that i was using to the test the issues (thought better than the pinky testing)

So you think the N-E links issues (that are causing the Safe T Cut trip) are unrelated to the shocks?

[iluvthailand]

Haha! Welcome to Thailand, where "it looks good" is good enough.

[Crossy]

So you think the N-E links issues (that are causing the Safe T Cut trip) are unrelated to the shocks?

I'm not sure what's going on there yet, a small voltage between ground and neutral is normal, but anything you can feel is not.

I suggest you tackle the issues one at a time and fix things that are definitely wrong i.e. those N-E links in the distribution boards. With luck the other problems will get fixed at the same time (I can hope can't I?).

Getting the Safe-T-Cut working is number 1 priority, once that is functioning you are protected against fatal shocks.

[Crossy]

This is how your system should be connected:-

Note that there is only one point where the neutral and earth are connected, inside the Safe-T-Cut, the inspector who comes to connect your permanent power will be looking for this (it's the only thing he checked when ours was hooked up).

The neutral may or may not be switched at the Safe-T-Cut (I've not examined a 3-phase one to be sure).

If you have multiple ground rods they must all be connected to a single point for safety.

[pancakeman]

So you think the N-E links issues (that are causing the Safe T Cut trip) are unrelated to the shocks?

I'm not sure what's going on there yet, a small voltage between ground and neutral is normal, but anything you can feel is not.

I suggest you tackle the issues one at a time and fix things that are definitely wrong i.e. those N-E links in the distribution boards. With luck the other problems will get fixed at the same time (I can hope can't I?).

Getting the Safe-T-Cut working is number 1 priority, once that is functioning you are protected against fatal shocks.

Thanks for the diagram I will print this to have next time the builder's electrician shows up.

Regarding "small voltage between ground and neutral is normal":

For example if I put the multi-meter in the ground line (at a plug) then touch other end to a sink/pipe etc. I can get a reading of 3-4 volts constant

Or for example if I put multi-meter between ground and a TV plugin (TV line is not yet connected to anything at the other end) I can get a reading of 10 volts.

The inspection guys kept saying this was normal and was "static", but I though static electricity would be a discharged on contact and you'd see a bump on the multimeter and then it would be gone (not a constant stable voltage)

[Crossy]

It's not static, but it is normal for the system ground (which is connected to neutral in a TNC-S supply) to be at a slightly different potential to 'real' ground. It's all to do with volt drop in the neutral and is not a fault.

Much more than 10-12V would however be worrying.

Also be aware of phantom voltages. If you are using a digital meter you can get significant readings off unconnected wires. This is due to capacitive coupling between the wire you're looking at and wires that really are live.

[simon43]

The neutral may or may not be switched at the Safe-T-Cut (I've not examined a 3-phase one to be sure).

I have a 3-phase Safe-T-cut at my hotels. The neutral line is not switched, but passes straight through the enclosure. The three live lines are all switched by a single breaker (ie ganged together, not separate switching per phase, which seems to me to be more useful when fault-finding).

Simon

[MK1]

The people you need to contact is’ Electrical Safety Consultants’. However, I should warn you they’re always in high-demand. Good luck.

http://phuketdir.com/electricalsafetyconsultants/

[Crossy]

The people you need to contact is’ Electrical Safety Consultants’. However, I should warn you they’re always in high-demand. Good luck.

http://phuketdir.com/electricalsafetyconsultants/

Useful MK1, do they serve all of Thailand or just Phuket?

Is their service simply reporting or do they diagnose and fix the issues they find (at additional cost one would assume)?

[MK1]

The people you need to contact is’ Electrical Safety Consultants’. However, I should warn you they’re always in high-demand. Good luck.

http://phuketdir.com/electricalsafetyconsultants/

Useful MK1, do they serve all of Thailand or just Phuket?

Is their service simply reporting or do they diagnose and fix the issues they find (at additional cost one would assume)?

No borders to their work in Thailand or the region for that matter, but they tend to specialize in more complex industrial electrical engineering such as in resorts, luxury villas and commercial properties, but unfortunately not necessarily your average domestic home. They inspect, test, diagnosis and report.

Thereafter, they can arrange rectification, depending upon the client’s needs, come back and test again. Then issue a certificate to International (BS) Standards, which is what most clients want in the end for peace-of-mind. But like I said, they’re high demand in Phuket because of their reputation including this type of service is hard to find in Thailand. So the more notice in advance you give them; the better response time you usually get.

Edited November 12, 2013 by MK1