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Seeking legal advice. Father wants to take Thai child back to USA

wellred

By wellred
in Family and Children

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wellred Gold Member

wellred

Posted
Posted

So a good friend of mine is in a spot of trouble. Long story short the son (age 2) is most of the time looked after by the mothers sister and mother up north. The girl herself works in Patong so isn't with the child much of the time.

The father is American and wants to try take the child to the USA. I've advised her to seek legal advice ASAP so she knows what her options are.

From the fathers perspective does he need to seek legal permission from any Thai courts to do this?

What should she be doing? Can she fight this? As far as I know the child is healthy and well looked after.

All advice welcome.

Thanks

Forethat Platinum Member

Forethat

Posted
Posted

Even if the if the father is legally recognised as the father he is not allowed to take her out of the country unless he can show documentation that the mother allows this.

However, there is no such thing as parental abduction in Thai law, so a successful removal of the child from Thailand will not be subject to prosecution.

On a more parental note, tell your friend to give up her son to the father instead of leaving him with grandparents if she can't spend time with her son.

I suggest moderators move this to the Family and Children forum where Mario2008 can help out.

  • Like 2
wellred Gold Member

wellred

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Thanks I didn't see that section. I asked her if he has contributed any child support so far. She said he sends something now and again but nothing on a regular basis. Also the father is not legally employed and apparently his family only just found out about the child.

Can she refuse the permission to legitimise the child? From her perspective she obviously doesn't want to lose the child. So just trying to figure out what her next move should be.

Beetlejuice Ruby Member

Beetlejuice

Posted
Posted (edited)

The present situation is this:

If the matter of custody of the said child has not yet been determined by a court of law, and the man has proof that he is the biological father, name on birth certificate and so on, then at the moment there is nothing legally barring either the mother or the father from taking the child. There maybe big problems for Daddy getting his son out of Thailand if the child does not have US citizenship.

This is rather like a race to grab the child first or in other words, sadly, the child becomes a pawn caught in-between the parent`s dispute.

Which ever parent manages to take the child first, then it becomes a matter for the other parent to have to fight for visiting rights, joint custody or full custody via the legal systems and the courts, even if it means (in the case of the child being taken to the States) the mother having to fight her case in the American courts, or vice versa if the mother takes the child.

By the sound of it as described by the OP, that the child`s present situation is most of the time looked after by the mothers sister and mother up north, than the child maybe better off in the States with Dad anyway.

Much depends on whether Daddy has easy access to the child, the child has US citizenship or not and also that the man maybe interviewed by the American embassy in order to establish whether or not he can properly care for the child in the States. for example, accommodation, employment, earnings and savings and he may also have to prove that wife/GF is an unsuitable mother.

So this is not a simple state of affairs and it really is a case of: may the best man win.

Edited by Beetlejuice
Forethat Platinum Member

Forethat

Posted
Posted

So this is not a simple state of affairs and it really is a case of: may the best man win.

Hear hear!

And, unfortunately, the child will have lost at minimum one parent in the process.

I have always wondered what parents involved in these tragedies tell their children once they are old enough to put them to the question:

Dad/Mom, how come I don't have a Dad/Mom..?

xunsure.png.pagespeed.ic.ttYYb5Lbfu.webp

  • Like 1
David48 Star Member

David48

Posted
Posted

The present situation is this:

If the matter of custody of the said child has not yet been determined by a court of law, and the man has proof that he is the biological father, name on birth certificate and so on, then at the moment there is nothing legally barring either the mother or the father from taking the child. There maybe big problems for Daddy getting his son out of Thailand if the child does not have US citizenship.

I'm not to sure if that is accurate advice ... rolleyes.gif

To the OP ... the member who asked the original question.

At the time of the birth of the child were the biological parents married?

It doesn't matter who's name is on the Birth Certificate.

.

benalibina Platinum Member

benalibina

Posted
Posted (edited)

So this is not a simple state of affairs and it really is a case of: may the best man win.

Hear hear!

And, unfortunately, the child will have lost at minimum one parent in the process.

I have always wondered what parents involved in these tragedies tell their children once they are old enough to put them to the question:

Dad/Mom, how come I don't have a Dad/Mom..?

xunsure.png.pagespeed.ic.ttYYb5Lbfu.webp

I will know myself in 10 years time the answer to that hopefully or .........

Sad state of affairs. This without knowing the full story from OP.

Anyway kids belong to stay with a parent who is willing and able to raise them. Not with anybody else. TIT however.

Edited by benalibina
  • Like 1
Forethat Platinum Member

Forethat

Posted
Posted

Anyway kids belong to stay with a parent who is willing and able to raise them. Not with anybody else. TIT however.

I have always wondered why a parent would not want to be with their child. That, to me, just doesn't add up...
  • Like 1
benalibina Platinum Member

benalibina

Posted
Posted

Anyway kids belong to stay with a parent who is willing and able to raise them. Not with anybody else. TIT however.

I have always wondered why a parent would not want to be with their child. That, to me, just doesn't add up...

Well...... even more disturbing is that when a parent who does not stay with a child prohibits the other parent to raise his/her own children. And chooses a 3rd party to raise the chil(ren). Living it myself and its softly killing me. TIT !!!!!! I and my children are unlucky that FIL is lacking a moral compass. However these things are not bound to thailand only. But as this is a thailand related forum.....

David48 Star Member

David48

Posted
Posted (edited)

Anyway kids belong to stay with a parent who is willing and able to raise them. Not with anybody else. TIT however.

I have always wondered why a parent would not want to be with their child. That, to me, just doesn't add up...

In the Future, most likely our kids will spend a significant period, maybe a year in Thailand in the care of their Grand Parents and Aunts and Uncles.

Will me miss them ... sure ... but their opportunities to grow and explore outweigh my selfish feelings.

Great for them to learn the Culture of Thailand, the language and for them to bond with relatives outside that of the Western concept of a Family.

My ego is not so big that I believe that only my and my partners' life experiences should be their only teaching. I trust my gf's parents to do as a good a job raising our kids as they did raising her.

Let them enjoy also the freedom of Thailand.

That said, they would spend their time at the Farm and that has many of my fondest memories as a child growing and exploring the World.

That said ... not advocating everyone should do this ... but it will most likely work for us.

EDIT ... benalibina ... you and posted at the same time.

My comments are not directed at you ... from what I understand of your situation, I can't begin to imagine the personal hell you are going through.

.

Edited by David48
  • Like 1
benalibina Platinum Member

benalibina

Posted
Posted

Anyway kids belong to stay with a parent who is willing and able to raise them. Not with anybody else. TIT however.

I have always wondered why a parent would not want to be with their child. That, to me, just doesn't add up...

In the Future, most likely our kids will spend a significant period, maybe a year in Thailand in the care of their Grand Parents and Aunts and Uncles.

Will me miss them ... sure ... but their opportunities to grow and explore outweigh my selfish feelings.

Great for them to learn the Culture of Thailand, the language and for them to bond with relatives outside that of the Western concept of a Family.

My ego is not so big that I believe that only my and my partners' life experiences should be their only teaching. I trust my gf's parents to do as a good a job raising our kids as they did raising her.

Let them enjoy also the freedom of Thailand.

That said, they would spend their time at the Farm and that has many of my fondest memories as a child growing and exploring the World.

That said ... not advocating everyone should do this ... but it will most likely work for us.

EDIT ... benalibina ... you and posted at the same time.

My comments are not directed at you ... from what I understand of your situation, I can't begin to imagine the personal hell you are going through.

.

Thanks David. Horses for courses sadly enough.

About your good intentions of letting your future kids stay under care of others.....well wait until the time comes. What you think today and tomorrow will maybe not the same what you think and feel after tomorrow. Thats what kids will do to you.

I had to leave my kids, had to. With totally unforeseen consequenses. Hell is paradise compared to how i feel though !!

David48 Star Member

David48

Posted
Posted
In the Future, most likely our kids will spend a significant period, maybe a year in Thailand in the care of their Grand Parents and Aunts and Uncles.

Will me miss them ... sure ... but their opportunities to grow and explore outweigh my selfish feelings.

Great for them to learn the Culture of Thailand, the language and for them to bond with relatives outside that of the Western concept of a Family.

My ego is not so big that I believe that only my and my partners' life experiences should be their only teaching. I trust my gf's parents to do as a good a job raising our kids as they did raising her.

Let them enjoy also the freedom of Thailand.

That said, they would spend their time at the Farm and that has many of my fondest memories as a child growing and exploring the World.

That said ... not advocating everyone should do this ... but it will most likely work for us.

EDIT ... benalibina ... you and posted at the same time.

My comments are not directed at you ... from what I understand of your situation, I can't begin to imagine the personal hell you are going through.

.

Thanks David. Horses for courses sadly enough.

About your good intentions of letting your future kids stay under care of others.....well wait until the time comes. What you think today and tomorrow will maybe not the same what you think and feel after tomorrow. Thats what kids will do to you.

I had to leave my kids, had to. With totally unforeseen consequenses. Hell is paradise compared to how i feel though !!

... and I agree. It's all theory till they are on that plane.

That said, I do have a predisposition to the concept.

Every Christmas holidays (we get 4 - 6 weeks) when I was a boy, I was put on the Silver Greyhound for the 2 hour trip from my City to the closest City of my Uncle and Grand Parents. He had no kids. Being an excitable Lad ... I'm sure my parents were thankful for the rest ... rolleyes.gif

They are Farmers ... 600 Acres (200ish Ha).

Has an absolute ball.

Playing on tractors, in the workshop, up with the Sun bla bla.

Plus a got a real good lick of the Farm Culture.

Same for our kids.

When they are Adults they will chose where they want to live. What religion they follow, if they indeed follow one at all.

So, if they are to live in Thailand I'd like them prepared with both the Linguistic and Cultural skills ... and you only get that by living in the country.

Obviously my partner is Thai, and it's just part of life that others in the wider family unit have a significant participation in the child's upbringing ... for better or worse.

Poor ole' OP ... we digressed a little from his original question.

Sorry mate ... wai.gif

Mario2008 Star Member

Mario2008

Posted
Posted

The mother is the legal parent of the child, if the father is also a legal parent of the child is unknown and the big questions in this.

If the father is a legal parent with parental rights, the mother can get a court order not allowing the child to leave the country.

From the father's perspective it all depends on if he has parental rights or not. If not, taking the child is kidnapping. But if he has parental rights, he has the right to take care of the child as the mother herself is not doing that. What the mother can do is prevent the child from leaving the country by court order.

  • Like 2
macca3248 Explorer Member

macca3248

Posted
Posted

It is common in Thailand and most South East Asian country's for grand parents to help raise there grand children.

Sounds like someone is cutting of his nose to spite his face............

Leave the young fella with his grand parents,they are the only family he knows......

  • Like 2
hellodolly Star Member

hellodolly

Posted
Posted

The present situation is this:

If the matter of custody of the said child has not yet been determined by a court of law, and the man has proof that he is the biological father, name on birth certificate and so on, then at the moment there is nothing legally barring either the mother or the father from taking the child. There maybe big problems for Daddy getting his son out of Thailand if the child does not have US citizenship.

This is rather like a race to grab the child first or in other words, sadly, the child becomes a pawn caught in-between the parent`s dispute.

Which ever parent manages to take the child first, then it becomes a matter for the other parent to have to fight for visiting rights, joint custody or full custody via the legal systems and the courts, even if it means (in the case of the child being taken to the States) the mother having to fight her case in the American courts, or vice versa if the mother takes the child.

By the sound of it as described by the OP, that the child`s present situation is most of the time looked after by the mothers sister and mother up north, than the child maybe better off in the States with Dad anyway.

Much depends on whether Daddy has easy access to the child, the child has US citizenship or not and also that the man maybe interviewed by the American embassy in order to establish whether or not he can properly care for the child in the States. for example, accommodation, employment, earnings and savings and he may also have to prove that wife/GF is an unsuitable mother.

So this is not a simple state of affairs and it really is a case of: may the best man win.

If the man gets the child back to the states he will have to work and find in most cases non relatives to take care of the child. It is not cheap for day care and as he only occasionally contributes money here would he be able to afford it.

Here in Thailand the child is taken care of by family who look on the child as their own. Not like being shuffled from day school to day school with a procession of different baby sitters. It is obvious the mother would not be asllowed to visit the child in America as the American visa laws are so paranoid. where as here in Thailand the fasther can come as often as he wishes.

Sounds to me like just another case of some ding a ling foreigner trying to impose his or her culture on a foreign culture.

It gets tiring listening to these discontents. I am glad that the mother has found some one who is not just another foreign know it all to help her.

  • Like 2
Suradit69 Diamond Member

Suradit69

Posted
Posted (edited)

Anyway kids belong to stay with a parent who is willing and able to raise them. Not with anybody else. TIT however.

I have always wondered why a parent would not want to be with their child. That, to me, just doesn't add up...

In the Future, most likely our kids will spend a significant period, maybe a year in Thailand in the care of their Grand Parents and Aunts and Uncles.

Will me miss them ... sure ... but their opportunities to grow and explore outweigh my selfish feelings.

Great for them to learn the Culture of Thailand, the language and for them to bond with relatives outside that of the Western concept of a Family.

My ego is not so big that I believe that only my and my partners' life experiences should be their only teaching. I trust my gf's parents to do as a good a job raising our kids as they did raising her.

Let them enjoy also the freedom of Thailand.

That said, they would spend their time at the Farm and that has many of my fondest memories as a child growing and exploring the World.

That said ... not advocating everyone should do this ... but it will most likely work for us.

EDIT ... benalibina ... you and posted at the same time.

My comments are not directed at you ... from what I understand of your situation, I can't begin to imagine the personal hell you are going through.

.

"Great for them to learn the Culture of Thailand, the language and for them to bond with relatives outside that of the Western concept of a Family."

Yes, it wasn't that long ago that even families in western countries were multi-generational and lived together. I grew up in a large house with both parents, one set of grandparents, one aunt and an older brother and there were some neighbors who were considered de facto family. Any and all of these people did some parenting.

And there are many parents from third world countries who are forced to leave their children with the extended family while they work in the city or even another country. It's a sad state of affairs but quite often they do that just because they love their children, because they want to provide them with material things and the education they couldn't otherwise afford. The city or country where they work may not be a good place for children, or there would be no one to look after them during working times or they may not be allowed to bring their children to stay with them.

Without knowing a lot more about this situation and the people involved it's impossible to speculate which is best for this child, but it is not automatically a good or bad thing for the child to stay with the extended family in Thailand or for her to be dragged off to the US. Both parents may be motivated to do the best thing or they may simply be thinking of themselves.

Edited by Suradit69
  • Like 1
jpmerlin Explorer Member

jpmerlin

Posted
Posted

The mother is the legal parent of the child, if the father is also a legal parent of the child is unknown and the big questions in this.

If the father is a legal parent with parental rights, the mother can get a court order not allowing the child to leave the country.

From the father's perspective it all depends on if he has parental rights or not. If not, taking the child is kidnapping. But if he has parental rights, he has the right to take care of the child as the mother herself is not doing that. What the mother can do is prevent the child from leaving the country by court order.

the mother can go to ampur whit one witness and state she the only one taking car of the child,and she become the only gardien of the child,she the only one who can get a thail passport to the child, i know that because we just do that 3 days ago in phuket.

whit out a passport the child can not go anywhere.

Mario2008 Star Member

Mario2008

Posted
Posted

The mother is the legal parent of the child, if the father is also a legal parent of the child is unknown and the big questions in this.

If the father is a legal parent with parental rights, the mother can get a court order not allowing the child to leave the country.

From the father's perspective it all depends on if he has parental rights or not. If not, taking the child is kidnapping. But if he has parental rights, he has the right to take care of the child as the mother herself is not doing that. What the mother can do is prevent the child from leaving the country by court order.

the mother can go to ampur whit one witness and state she the only one taking car of the child,and she become the only gardien of the child,she the only one who can get a thail passport to the child, i know that because we just do that 3 days ago in phuket.

whit out a passport the child can not go anywhere.

You obtained a letter saying that only the mother is taking care of the child, enabling her to apply for the passport for the child. That is not the same as obtaining sole parental rights.

The child has dual nationality and can hold two different passports.

FiftyTwo Gold Member

FiftyTwo

Posted
Posted

The mother is the legal parent of the child, if the father is also a legal parent of the child is unknown and the big questions in this.

If the father is a legal parent with parental rights, the mother can get a court order not allowing the child to leave the country.

From the father's perspective it all depends on if he has parental rights or not. If not, taking the child is kidnapping. But if he has parental rights, he has the right to take care of the child as the mother herself is not doing that. What the mother can do is prevent the child from leaving the country by court order.

the mother can go to ampur whit one witness and state she the only one taking car of the child,and she become the only gardien of the child,she the only one who can get a thail passport to the child, i know that because we just do that 3 days ago in phuket.

whit out a passport the child can not go anywhere.

You obtained a letter saying that only the mother is taking care of the child, enabling her to apply for the passport for the child. That is not the same as obtaining sole parental rights.

The child has dual nationality and can hold two different passports.

As they were not married, she already has sole parental rights.

Andre0720 Platinum Member

Andre0720

Posted
Posted

So this is not a simple state of affairs and it really is a case of: may the best man win.

Hear hear!

And, unfortunately, the child will have lost at minimum one parent in the process.

I have always wondered what parents involved in these tragedies tell their children once they are old enough to put them to the question:

Dad/Mom, how come I don't have a Dad/Mom..?

xunsure.png.pagespeed.ic.ttYYb5Lbfu.webp

As we are in Thailand here,

This question must have been already asked millions of times...

Forethat Platinum Member

Forethat

Posted
Posted

It is common in Thailand and most South East Asian country's for grand parents to help raise there grand children.

Sounds like someone is cutting of his nose to spite his face............

Leave the young fella with his grand parents,they are the only family he knows......

I find this post a bit controversial. Are telling me we should disregard parenthood and allow external parties to claim the rights to a child based on an assumption that they can and knows better, OR that the child has already been left with them for a period..?

For real?

benalibina Platinum Member

benalibina

Posted
Posted

It is common in Thailand and most South East Asian country's for grand parents to help raise there grand children.

Sounds like someone is cutting of his nose to spite his face............

Leave the young fella with his grand parents,they are the only family he knows......

I find this post a bit controversial. Are telling me we should disregard parenthood and allow external parties to claim the rights to a child based on an assumption that they can and knows better, OR that the child has already been left with them for a period..?

For real?

TIT, so both !

rhodie Silver Member

rhodie

Posted
Posted

If they are/were married and the father has parental rights then he has some chance.

Read this thread if you have the time, of a fathers struggle to get custody of his child where he lives in Thailand and the Thai mother lives outside of Thailand and the child lives with the mothers family in Thailand and he wants the child to live with him in Thailand. It has taken over 3 years and he has still not got his daughter.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/406005-abdution-of-my-daughter-by-my-thai-wife/

It will give you an idea of the uphill battle the father will face so in your case, I think she is safe.

Forethat Platinum Member

Forethat

Posted
Posted

without written permission of mom/dad , the child will not be able to leave the country or enter USA

Are you sure about this? I would expect the child to be allowed to enter USA as long as the father was able to prove he is the legal father...?

  • 4 weeks later...
David48 Star Member

David48

Posted
Posted

without written permission of mom/dad , the child will not be able to leave the country or enter USA

Are you sure about this? I would expect the child to be allowed to enter USA as long as the father was able to prove he is the legal father...?

My understanding is that the first hurdle would be for the child to get a Thai Passport.

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(c)(1) The Minister, may exempt an employer from the obligation imposed upon him in subsection (a) to workers employed by him in such specific assignments as he shall determine, or whose wages exceed the amount that he has prescribed; an exemption under this subsection may be granted in regulations in general, or in relation to a particular foreign worker; (2) An employer who has not made suitable residential accommodation available for a foreign worker due to an exemption that he has received pursuant to paragraph (1) shall make a payment to the foreign worker for suitable residential accommodation of such amount as shall be prescribed; an amount prescribed pursuant to this subsection shall be linked to the index as the minister shall determine. (d) The Minister may prescribe, in consultation with the Minister of Health, and the Minister of Housing and Construction, binding criteria for suitable residential accommodation, including conditions relating to safety and sanitation.
      Patong2021 in Thailand News
    6. 45

      Thailand vs Panama. Decisions Decisions!

      Part of it may be not liking foreigners in general, not just lack of curiosity. Is definately not just you. Odd isn't it? It's not something that can be overcome in my opinion, after living here many years. Bob and I were on the same page in this regard as well. Many theories were brought up, including penis size, but I don't think anybody really knows. On the surface it seems to be disinterest, but there is a spitefullness as well and avoidance you don't find with just non-interest. Part of it may be fear of embarrassment of not speaking english or understanding you. Even the noodle soup store guy I eat at regularly acts weird when I ask a question and I eat there several times a week. It's kind of a blunt curt manner like he is in a rush or afraid to interact with me. Other times he is overly attentive if I don't say anything. Weird. Very different then Mexican guys who are easy to meet and interact with even with the language barrier.
      JimTripper in ASEAN NOW Community Pub
    7. 40

      Just another day crossing the road...

      I did read the whole reply and I agree but this is Thailand
      still kicking in Thailand Motor Discussion
    8. 27

      kingdom that should pay taxes

      And who is the richest royal in the world?
      • 1
      • Thanks
      still kicking in Political Soapbox

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