A tribute to the street dogs

[thailiketoo]

I'd say that it is sod-all to do with religion or "culture" (whatever that is) - if you look round the world you'll see that the amount of dogs in any country is more or less inversely proportionate to the average standard of living.

Country Dog pop. Human pop. Dogs per capita (top 4 countries)

USA 67085100 311,591,917 0.21 Poland 7050000 38,187,488 0.18 Argentina 6594400 40,412,376 0.16 Australia 3484000 22,328,800 0.15

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2012_March_13

Edited November 21, 2013 by thailiketoo

[sunshine51]

Oooooo...the soi dog haters are out today eh?

All I wanna say is that the missus & I currently have

4 rescued soi dogs at home & they're great dogs.

Excellent house guards too. All up...in the years

I've lived in LOS (more than most of you-less than

a few) I have had nothing but soi dogs...I don't

remember the exact number but it's been quite a

lot and they've all been good dogs...never a problem

to me...later with the missus or our friends. They

just need a chance that's all. That said...some of the

severely injured soi dogs should be humanely put down

but NEVER sold to the dog meat trade and anybody

who advocates this should be sold into human slavery.

the trouble with "rescuing" Soi dogs is that they are then allowed to run round and procreate - so in turn it usually exacerbates the problem.

PS - dog's lifespan is about 12 years so how long does one have to be here to have had so many you can't remember? what happened to them?

There's no "trouble" with rescuing soi dogs as long as the one doing the rescuing takes the

responsibility to neuter the males & spay the females.

As for the second part of your reply; they all died of natural causes and for how long have I

been here...try since 1973. Don't go by the info on my profile page...I only joined rather

late to quell some BS about stuff happening in the troubled Southern Prov's...just FYI that

wilcopops.

You have a nice day now.

[sunshine51]

Oooooo...the soi dog haters are out today eh?

All I wanna say is that the missus & I currently have

4 rescued soi dogs at home & they're great dogs.

Excellent house guards too. All up...in the years

I've lived in LOS (more than most of you-less than

a few) I have had nothing but soi dogs...I don't

remember the exact number but it's been quite a

lot and they've all been good dogs...never a problem

to me...later with the missus or our friends. They

just need a chance that's all. That said...some of the

severely injured soi dogs should be humanely put down

but NEVER sold to the dog meat trade and anybody

who advocates this should be sold into human slavery.

loyal is not the word,anybody thats not read the book of his majesty the king of thailand "the story of thong daen" should try and get a copy if you can find one.you then might have a different opinion[dog haters]

I have a first edition of HM's book Thong Daeng. And I still feel the same towards dog haters.

As far as I'm concerned they're nearly scum of the planet in my opinion. So who makes

humans the ultimate decision makers? Answer that. Have you ever lived with wolves? Have

you ever lived with a wolf? I have. We as a species still have so much to learn...but we think

otherwise...don't we?

Edited November 21, 2013 by sunshine51

[sunshine51]

One of the main contributors to the "soi dog problem" is the lack of education in

caring for animals kept as pets. Kid wants pet...parents get pet. Pet grows up...

family finds it difficult to keep...pet gets booted out of the house onto the street.

That's just one way it happens. In the end once on the streets the once loved

pet soon gets into the breeding cycle and offspring happen. I have seen some

lovely breeds end up as soi dogs...breeds like Goldens, Labs. German Shepards

etc...etc. It's a crying shame to see em on the streets trying to ek out some sort

of survival. It's not their fault they're on the streets...it's a human fault they're out

there...you can try to argue that all you want but somebody at sometime kicked out

a pooch or two and this is what it's ended up being. Granted...dogs will procreate

almost as fast as rats will...that's why neuter & spay programmes work. Sadly though

re-homing a stray rarely works as many locals want pedigree pets so the mutts will

almost always roam free until they meet their demise. It's sad...but the Thai education

system sucks in so many more ways than teaching kids about caring for animals

which must be pretty near the bottom of the system if in the system at all.

[Tawng]

In my opinion:

The abandoned ex-pets need help; the pets on the loose cause most of the problems; whilst many of the dogs born and raised on the streets as they traditionally do in the village environment in this part of the world, having grown up surrounded by street life in all its forms, are actually amongst the most well balanced dogs I have ever met. I admire and appreciate them.

[jsflynn603]

In my opinion:

The abandoned ex-pets need help; the pets on the loose cause most of the problems; whilst many of the dogs born and raised on the streets as they traditionally do in the village environment in this part of the world, having grown up surrounded by street life in all its forms, are actually amongst the most well balanced dogs I have ever met. I admire and appreciate them.

Very true. While living in Chiang mai I enjoyed photographing old spirit houses and the best ones, always of teak, and some I think well over a hundred years old. But all the newer areas had kitchy ones--the true handmade old ones were found in bleak places. The best place was walking the path along the main sewage canal where people lived in shanties/shacks. I don't know if the very old spirit houses belonged to their families or were scrounged when someone threw out the old hand-made teak house for a new glitchy one but these very poor people had the best spirit houses in Chiang mai. The dogs were very protective of their territory along the sewage canal and often I was stopped by a particularly threatening dog who would bark. Then within a few minutes someone would come out of a shack and sometimes talk a bit to me or I'd point and show what I wanted to do with my camera. And one by one they'd tell the dog I was ok and I could go and photograph that spirit house and the dog along with others would then keep a respectful distance. I suppose that the dogs had to be smart--screw with a human and it's probably often means the end of that dog.

I did find that small packs not associated with humans were the one to be wary of but also found the best thing to carry is a camera on a sling...swing it and for some reason dogs back way, way off.

Thailand has done well in rabies prevention but it is still an issue (1 positive in 3.316 strays tested in 2002 in Bkk). That may seem low but is high enough that should a unvaccinated dog bite you rabies vaccination (plus possible immune globulin injection) is advisable.

[super22k]

It is our responsibility to look after these dogs because we human beings domesticated them.Yes,you nasty individuals who hate these dogs,your ancesters domesticated them. To save them suffering we shouldd "put them to sleep" in a humane way to stop them breeding more dogs to suffer. It seems westeners love dogs,apart from a few TV posters, and Asians hate them.

[cornishcarlos]

Oooooo...the soi dog haters are out today eh?

All I wanna say is that the missus & I currently have

4 rescued soi dogs at home & they're great dogs.

Excellent house guards too. All up...in the years

I've lived in LOS (more than most of you-less than

a few) I have had nothing but soi dogs...I don't

remember the exact number but it's been quite a

lot and they've all been good dogs...never a problem

to me...later with the missus or our friends. They

just need a chance that's all. That said...some of the

severely injured soi dogs should be humanely put down

but NEVER sold to the dog meat trade and anybody

who advocates this should be sold into human slavery.

loyal is not the word,anybody thats not read the book of his majesty the king of thailand "the story of thong daen" should try and get a copy if you can find one.you then might have a different opinion[dog haters]

I have a first edition of HM's book Thong Daeng. And I still feel the same towards dog haters.

As far as I'm concerned they're nearly scum of the planet in my opinion. So who makes

humans the ultimate decision makers? Answer that. Have you ever lived with wolves? Have

you ever lived with a wolf? I have. We as a species still have so much to learn...but we think

otherwise...don't we?

You lived with a wolf ???

Is that something from the Thong Daeng book or did you actually live with a wolf !!

If you have been here since 1973, then you didn't live with one in the last 40 yrs...

My Bang Kaew (not sure if that is correct spelling) is pretty close to a wolf but only bites strangers

[meatboy]

Oooooo...the soi dog haters are out today eh?

All I wanna say is that the missus & I currently have

4 rescued soi dogs at home & they're great dogs.

Excellent house guards too. All up...in the years

I've lived in LOS (more than most of you-less than

a few) I have had nothing but soi dogs...I don't

remember the exact number but it's been quite a

lot and they've all been good dogs...never a problem

to me...later with the missus or our friends. They

just need a chance that's all. That said...some of the

severely injured soi dogs should be humanely put down

but NEVER sold to the dog meat trade and anybody

who advocates this should be sold into human slavery.

loyal is not the word,anybody thats not read the book of his majesty the king of thailand "the story of thong daen" should try and get a copy if you can find one.you then might have a different opinion[dog haters]

I have a first edition of HM's book Thong Daeng. And I still feel the same towards dog haters.

As far as I'm concerned they're nearly scum of the planet in my opinion. So who makes

humans the ultimate decision makers? Answer that. Have you ever lived with wolves? Have

you ever lived with a wolf? I have. We as a species still have so much to learn...but we think

otherwise...don't we?

people who live near me are amazed that our dog is so intelligent.he is a decendant from the wolf family and we are very lucky to have him,he had been left by the owners relatives who were [supposed to look after him] to become a soi dog.the wifes brother brought him to us at 1yr.old if it had been another week he would not have survived,when the vet came he was within an inch of dying,the vet said on a scale of 1-8 he was on 7.days of nursing him,putting him on a drip,numberous injections he pulled through although he was 10kilo under weight,but our love and attention has made him our son who is loved behond his dreams and he knows it because he gives us so much back.i tell him every day how much i love him and as nick says on universal series[grim] the next person that tries to take this away from me will have to kill me first.

T.I.T.taffy in thailand.

[daoyai]

It is our responsibility to look after these dogs because we human beings domesticated them.Yes,you nasty individuals who hate these dogs,your ancesters domesticated them. To save them suffering we shouldd "put them to sleep" in a humane way to stop them breeding more dogs to suffer. It seems westeners love dogs,apart from a few TV posters, and Asians hate them.

If as you say, Asians hated dogs, there would not be so many. I have seen some very touching examples of kindness shown to dogs by the locals in my time here.

[thailiketoo]

It is our responsibility to look after these dogs because we human beings domesticated them.Yes,you nasty individuals who hate these dogs,your ancesters domesticated them. To save them suffering we shouldd "put them to sleep" in a humane way to stop them breeding more dogs to suffer. It seems westeners love dogs,apart from a few TV posters, and Asians hate them.

If as you say, Asians hated dogs, there would not be so many. I have seen some very touching examples of kindness shown to dogs by the locals in my time here.

Two days ago. Four Thai office girls (small salary hard work) each paid 1000 baht for an operation on a really ugly looking 5 year old Soi dog who lived by the office. The security guard drove the dog an hour to the vet and the Thai manager hearing of the event gave the office ladies back their 4000 baht and paid it himself.

[wilcopops]

When you’re walking the streets of Pattaya

And the Soi dogs snarl and bark at-a-ya

Just bear in mind

That some twerp thought it’d’ be kind

To feed it, as if that don’t matter-ya?

I walk every day and never have a problem. Maybe it's your snarling attitude? I feed them when I can.

It's a limerick!

however if you think that you single experience is element....well ,take another think?

by feeding the dogs you are being a major contributor to the dog problem - not just in your neighbourhood but in the country as a whole.

When I lived in a townhouse there were 3 soi dogs, harmless to me and the GF, they would always watch me pass back and forward. Started to feed them our scraps, then it went to buying a chicken every second or third day. I would split the food up evenly and give them the food. No biting, snapping or grabbing. They were very docile with me.

During heavy rain the GF would let them sleep under the carport. She believed she gained merit being kind to them saying they had a life so had a soul??

I would sit out reading a book and they would lie lazing around me. Sadly when I returned from one offshore trip 2 were gone, one that were left was terrified, took a few days for it to come back down the Soi to me. After that it would never go outside again, always stayed near our door. It had its life under our care. It understood what I wanted it to do, come, stop, quiet etc (Even though I spoke English).

Died in it's sleep, I wrapped it up and buried it in a field over the 'Darkside', he never gave us one problem. Had become a close and loved member of our family.

The love and loyalty a dog gives can never be returned. Any man that does not like dogs... has some humane, kindness lacking/missing inside

I don't see the relevance of this story.

there are al least 300.000 strays in Bangkok. ....and you fed 3....this probably resulted in about the birth of an exponential number or more strays- you the put a probably diseased carcass it an undocumented place where it may have polluted the soil. I would consider that no matter how much consideration you have for individual animals you myopic perception of the situation does nothing but harm in the long run.

Edited November 22, 2013 by wilcopops

[WitawatWatawit]

..........

If I act nice and friendly,

and don't go for his crutch,

Great little poem. Thanks. Clearly you understand the soi dog's life. One little edit.......I think you meant crotch? not crutch? Every farang will have a crotch (between the legs where they join the torso), but not so many will have a crutch (long stick to support their weight).

No need to get all crutchety.

[KuhnPaen]

too...much...free...time.

I can't believe I read the whole thing.

[pomchop]

I have far more aggressive dogs snarl and bark at me on my daily walks in the USA then I do in Thailand. A huge number of USA dogs are left alone all day as their owners are all at work chasing the mighty dollars and leave the dog in the yard chained up or fenced in....and it sure seems to me that the dogs really don't do well all alone and get neurotic and aggressive....who can blame them? And of course there are many American dog owners who WANT the dogs to be aggressive and patrol the yard because there is obviously nobody home....so they go out of their way to get some semi viscious dog breed and then go out of their way to train him to be aggressive....

In Thailand on the other hand it seems there is nearly always SOMEBODY at home ...grandma or the kids or grandpa or SOMEBODY to keep the dogs company and the dogs really not necessary to defend the home against burglars as people are there to do that...

Sure there are some soi dogs that can cause problems but again overall I have fewer bad encounters with thai dogs than American dogs

. I suspect a lot of people aggravate thai dogs by responding in their own human aggressive way with the dog which generally seems to just make it worse....I have found that the best way to deal with thai dogs barking is to ignore them, keep your eyes averted, keep your fist balled up and do not engage with them at all....IF IF one makes a run at you I have found that most thai dogs are scared to death of you and all it usually takes to send them running is to act like you are picking up a rock or stick to throw at them.

I used to walk the tobacco monopoly in Bangkok every day and there are lots of soi dogs there....never had any serious problems with them though other friends were afraid to walk there and claimed they had all kinds of problems....maybe I am just lucky or maybe dogs can sense when you are afraid of them etc?

[wilcopops]

I have far more aggressive dogs snarl and bark at me on my daily walks in the USA then I do in Thailand. A huge number of USA dogs are left alone all day as their owners are all at work chasing the mighty dollars and leave the dog in the yard chained up or fenced in....and it sure seems to me that the dogs really don't do well all alone and get neurotic and aggressive....who can blame them? And of course there are many American dog owners who WANT the dogs to be aggressive and patrol the yard because there is obviously nobody home....so they go out of their way to get some semi viscious dog breed and then go out of their way to train him to be aggressive....

In Thailand on the other hand it seems there is nearly always SOMEBODY at home ...grandma or the kids or grandpa or SOMEBODY to keep the dogs company and the dogs really not necessary to defend the home against burglars as people are there to do that...

Sure there are some soi dogs that can cause problems but again overall I have fewer bad encounters with thai dogs than American dogs

. I suspect a lot of people aggravate thai dogs by responding in their own human aggressive way with the dog which generally seems to just make it worse....I have found that the best way to deal with thai dogs barking is to ignore them, keep your eyes averted, keep your fist balled up and do not engage with them at all....IF IF one makes a run at you I have found that most thai dogs are scared to death of you and all it usually takes to send them running is to act like you are picking up a rock or stick to throw at them.

I used to walk the tobacco monopoly in Bangkok every day and there are lots of soi dogs there....never had any serious problems with them though other friends were afraid to walk there and claimed they had all kinds of problems....maybe I am just lucky or maybe dogs can sense when you are afraid of them etc?

I agree with most of your post - but it doesn't address the main problem of dogs in Thailand - they are a health hazard and do either bark at or frighten people (I'm including Thai people here) - many of the Thai people I work with will tell you they have a fear of dogs.

they are in effect detrimentally affecting the life of thousands of people band are the main cause of rubbish in the streets - it usually comes pout of bags they have ripped open.

If the nation adopts some simple measures - public hygiene mainly - it will gradually eliminate the dog problem - no cull, no neutering no "rescue" homes - the benefits will be enormous - clean streets, happy residents and less road accidents and less disgusted tourists.

[super22k]

How do you know all this ,Thailiketoo? It sounds like a made up story to me.You miss the point. If the dogs ancesters had not been domesticated by us the suffering dog would not be around to suffer.

[thailiketoo]

How do you know all this ,Thailiketoo? It sounds like a made up story to me.You miss the point. If the dogs ancesters had not been domesticated by us the suffering dog would not be around to suffer.

It was an emergency operation. I paid for it. The girls went to an ATM after work and paid me back. The next day their manager paid them. No one was going to let the dog die. The Vet did the operation an hour before I got there so she did it not knowing if she would be paid.

Dogs got domesticated by themselves.

Cave men threw away bones and things the dogs would eat. The dogs began to follow the cavemen around and provide security for the tribe by barking at intruders.

The cavemen kept the dogs that worked and hunted the best and ate the others. The wolf was bred out and domestic dog who worked for man bred in. A good sheep dog is worth 4 men to round up sheep or cattle.

[geronimo]

When you’re walking the streets of Pattaya

And the Soi dogs snarl and bark at-a-ya

Just bear in mind

That some twerp thought it’d’ be kind

To feed it, as if that don’t matter-ya?

I walk every day and never have a problem. Maybe it's your snarling attitude? I feed them when I can.

Feeding the dogs is the WORST thing anyone can do. It doesn't alleviate their suffering in the long run - it prolongs it...BUT it allows them to procreate. People continuing this myopic "good deed" trust exacerbates the dog problem - they can only exist if there's food. If you cut off there various sources of food the problem will dwindle to insignificance.

Here's a good idea,

There are far too many people on this planet. They only procreate so let's just not feed them, then that problem will go away too!

Oh and I forgot, let's begin with you shall we?

[CharlieH]

In my opinion, a dog should have an owner, a collar, a home, a license. The licence pays to clean up the strays and remove them from the streets, removed so they can be checked , treated, homed if possible. We as humans created the issue largely by neglect so we should clean up our own mess and address the problem responsibly. Ignoring it wont make it go away.

Those dogs didnt ask to be homeless or abandoned, or to be repeatedly abused, they are in survival mode because a human made that choice for them, so the human should fix it.

[wilcopops]

When you’re walking the streets of Pattaya

And the Soi dogs snarl and bark at-a-ya

Just bear in mind

That some twerp thought it’d’ be kind

To feed it, as if that don’t matter-ya?

I walk every day and never have a problem. Maybe it's your snarling attitude? I feed them when I can.

Feeding the dogs is the WORST thing anyone can do. It doesn't alleviate their suffering in the long run - it prolongs it...BUT it allows them to procreate. People continuing this myopic "good deed" trust exacerbates the dog problem - they can only exist if there's food. If you cut off there various sources of food the problem will dwindle to insignificance.

Here's a good idea,

There are far too many people on this planet. They only procreate so let's just not feed them, then that problem will go away too!

Oh and I forgot, let's begin with you shall we?

An extremely facile answer.

firstly your premise about too many people is not proven so your premise is fallacious and therefore the rest of your argument.

however you obviously have no idea why there are so many dogs or what closing th dustbins and their other food supple would do.

old dogs don't just fade away and float off to doggie heaven. They die long lingering deaths and usually starve as they are unable to fed themselves - people who "help" them by giving them food simply prolong this suffering. Even if you leave food out for dogs the oldd and sick don't get to eat it - even if they can get access they often don't have teeth or have lost the ability to digest it. In the stray dog population hundreds or even thousands die every day - polluting the area they have dropped in and screwing up the nearby water supplies etc etc.

If the local authorities literally "clean up their act" - i.e. supply proper waste disposal facilities then the soi dog population that any area ca support will be reduced - the old dogs will die off and the younger animals will move away looking for easier places to scavenge from.

BUT the key is not just "natural wastage by the old....in a dog population and many other species, when food supplies run low the populations instinctively cease breeding or at least reduce their birth rate - this is a natural reaction - threading takes a lot of energy and requires a lot of extra food. In times of low food supply some animals will even eat their young in order to survive to another season.

Cleaning the rubbish and food of the streets and hygienic disposal of public waste won't result in packs of hungry dogs or in a dramatic increase in the death rate - what it achieves is a lowering of the BIRTH RATE and a reduction in the dog population as it is replenished less and less by dogs that have stopped breeding.

If the food supply is reduced the population reduces through natural wastage and thins gradually throughout the country until it is down to manageable levels.

Feeding does not help the dogs, your neighbours or get you into heaven.

[wilcopops]

How do you know all this ,Thailiketoo? It sounds like a made up story to me.You miss the point. If the dogs ancesters had not been domesticated by us the suffering dog would not be around to suffer.

It was an emergency operation. I paid for it. The girls went to an ATM after work and paid me back. The next day their manager paid them. No one was going to let the dog die. The Vet did the operation an hour before I got there so she did it not knowing if she would be paid.

Dogs got domesticated by themselves.

Cave men threw away bones and things the dogs would eat. The dogs began to follow the cavemen around and provide security for the tribe by barking at intruders.

The cavemen kept the dogs that worked and hunted the best and ate the others. The wolf was bred out and domestic dog who worked for man bred in. A good sheep dog is worth 4 men to round up sheep or cattle.

By themselves? Not really......

There is no great certainty of how dogs became domesticated, but there are some unavoidable facts about wolves - they aren’t a domesticated breed. Don’t confuse domesticated with “tame” either - they are not the same.

All dogs are descended from Wolves who MAN domesticated (see a definition of Domesticate if you don’t know what that means). DNA has ruled out any other species.

“Tamed” wolves seem to have accompanied hunter- gathers but the advent of agriculture seems to have brought about the big breeding of “purpose-built” domesticated dogs.

That means that the first “domesticated” dogs were probably bred from hand raised wolves. Wolves are very difficult to “socialise” (they are not domesticated) once they mature - pups are the key.

Wolves - and ALL dogs are by nature scavengers first, and would have been attracted to human settlement - the more “good-natured” ones would have had less trouble staying near these habitations and may well have passed on this “friendly” trait to their off-spring; the supply of easy food allowing them to breed more successfully. (See my post above).

As security wolves would have been of dubious use - remember wolves don’t bark - only domesticated dogs do this.

However it seems pretty certain that at some point man got involved in managing the breeding and the domestication of the wolf to dog commenced, and about 30,000 years ago in S.E. Asia the first domesticated dogs appeared. Man has continued to breed dogs to meet his requirement, whether for security, work or food. The result is the astounding variations you see in the “breeds” today. However if left to their own devices dogs although still dogs - not wolves - return to a more basic model - less size and colour variation etc., selective breeding often means the selection of recessive genes for the purposes of a particular trait in a dog.

[thailiketoo]

How do you know all this ,Thailiketoo? It sounds like a made up story to me.You miss the point. If the dogs ancesters had not been domesticated by us the suffering dog would not be around to suffer.

It was an emergency operation. I paid for it. The girls went to an ATM after work and paid me back. The next day their manager paid them. No one was going to let the dog die. The Vet did the operation an hour before I got there so she did it not knowing if she would be paid.

Dogs got domesticated by themselves.

Cave men threw away bones and things the dogs would eat. The dogs began to follow the cavemen around and provide security for the tribe by barking at intruders.

The cavemen kept the dogs that worked and hunted the best and ate the others. The wolf was bred out and domestic dog who worked for man bred in. A good sheep dog is worth 4 men to round up sheep or cattle.

By themselves? Not really......

There is no great certainty of how dogs became domesticated, but there are some unavoidable facts about wolves - they aren’t a domesticated breed. Don’t confuse domesticated with “tame” either - they are not the same.

All dogs are descended from Wolves who MAN domesticated (see a definition of Domesticate if you don’t know what that means). DNA has ruled out any other species.

“Tamed” wolves seem to have accompanied hunter- gathers but the advent of agriculture seems to have brought about the big breeding of “purpose-built” domesticated dogs.

That means that the first “domesticated” dogs were probably bred from hand raised wolves. Wolves are very difficult to “socialise” (they are not domesticated) once they mature - pups are the key.

Wolves - and ALL dogs are by nature scavengers first, and would have been attracted to human settlement - the more “good-natured” ones would have had less trouble staying near these habitations and may well have passed on this “friendly” trait to their off-spring; the supply of easy food allowing them to breed more successfully. (See my post above).

As security wolves would have been of dubious use - remember wolves don’t bark - only domesticated dogs do this.

However it seems pretty certain that at some point man got involved in managing the breeding and the domestication of the wolf to dog commenced, and about 30,000 years ago in S.E. Asia the first domesticated dogs appeared. Man has continued to breed dogs to meet his requirement, whether for security, work or food. The result is the astounding variations you see in the “breeds” today. However if left to their own devices dogs although still dogs - not wolves - return to a more basic model - less size and colour variation etc., selective breeding often means the selection of recessive genes for the purposes of a particular trait in a dog.

You know dingos look almost exactly like soi dogs.

[Tawng]

How do you know all this ,Thailiketoo? It sounds like a made up story to me.You miss the point. If the dogs ancesters had not been domesticated by us the suffering dog would not be around to suffer.

It was an emergency operation. I paid for it. The girls went to an ATM after work and paid me back. The next day their manager paid them. No one was going to let the dog die. The Vet did the operation an hour before I got there so she did it not knowing if she would be paid.

Dogs got domesticated by themselves.

Cave men threw away bones and things the dogs would eat. The dogs began to follow the cavemen around and provide security for the tribe by barking at intruders.

The cavemen kept the dogs that worked and hunted the best and ate the others. The wolf was bred out and domestic dog who worked for man bred in. A good sheep dog is worth 4 men to round up sheep or cattle.

By themselves? Not really......

There is no great certainty of how dogs became domesticated, but there are some unavoidable facts about wolves - they aren’t a domesticated breed. Don’t confuse domesticated with “tame” either - they are not the same.

All dogs are descended from Wolves who MAN domesticated (see a definition of Domesticate if you don’t know what that means). DNA has ruled out any other species.

“Tamed” wolves seem to have accompanied hunter- gathers but the advent of agriculture seems to have brought about the big breeding of “purpose-built” domesticated dogs.

That means that the first “domesticated” dogs were probably bred from hand raised wolves. Wolves are very difficult to “socialise” (they are not domesticated) once they mature - pups are the key.

Wolves - and ALL dogs are by nature scavengers first, and would have been attracted to human settlement - the more “good-natured” ones would have had less trouble staying near these habitations and may well have passed on this “friendly” trait to their off-spring; the supply of easy food allowing them to breed more successfully. (See my post above).

As security wolves would have been of dubious use - remember wolves don’t bark - only domesticated dogs do this.

However it seems pretty certain that at some point man got involved in managing the breeding and the domestication of the wolf to dog commenced, and about 30,000 years ago in S.E. Asia the first domesticated dogs appeared. Man has continued to breed dogs to meet his requirement, whether for security, work or food. The result is the astounding variations you see in the “breeds” today. However if left to their own devices dogs although still dogs - not wolves - return to a more basic model - less size and colour variation etc., selective breeding often means the selection of recessive genes for the purposes of a particular trait in a dog.

You know dingos look almost exactly like soi dogs.

Man did not domesticate the wolf directly. Some wolves started the process themselves through scavenging around people and eventually becoming more doglike. Man then domesticated the result, which was something akin to the dingo. Interestingly, the dingo is actually a south-east asian animal that happens to still be roaming around Thailand (some of them not only “look like” dingoes as you point out, they actually are dingoes). They are the original “village dogs” in this part of the world but most westerners misguidedly label them as “strays”.

[thailiketoo]

You know dingos look almost exactly like soi dogs.

Man did not domesticate the wolf directly. Some wolves started the process themselves through scavenging around people and eventually becoming more doglike. Man then domesticated the result, which was something akin to the dingo. Interestingly, the dingo is actually a south-east asian animal that happens to still be roaming around Thailand (some of them not only “look like” dingoes as you point out, they actually are dingoes). They are the original “village dogs” in this part of the world but most westerners misguidedly label them as “strays”.

Glad you pointed that out. The I knew there was a reason the dogs acted like they own the place. They were here before most of the Thais.

[geronimo]

A tribute to many other animals would be better

OK Then, just for you

Animals

Animals intrigue me

There is such a varied range

Things that stick out

And colours that change

Feelers and probes

Things for attack

Fangs and venom

And a sting in their back

A cat can be playful

Especially indoors

Tearing things up

With retractable claws

A dog is so faithful

So loving and true

He’s there for you always

Whatever you do

A horse is a runner

It moves with such grace

Flaring his nostrils

as he throws you on your face

A shark can be mean

With cold staring eyes

His double rows of teeth

Hold the biggest surprise!

A bull is so fearsome

He grunts and he snorts

He’s made to take part

In the bloodiest of sports

A crab is protected

With armour and claws

Burying itself

Along sandy shores

A parrot has skills

That outweighs other birds

He’ll repeat what he hears

And he loves the naughty words!

The hippo is awesome

He likes to eat grass

But enter his kingdom

And he’ll have your ass!

A rhino, it is said

Will seldom relax

And he can charge

A train off its tracks!

An owl is a master

With vision to match

A fast moving field mouse

Is an easy thing to catch!

An eagle is awesome

It soars and it dives

If you’re on the ground

You might not survive

A peacock is stunning

Some people would say

Spreading her tail

A breathtaking display!

Bears are good sniffers

And they can be quite funny

Covered with bees

As they seek out their honey!

Elephants are amazing

Their talents are many

He’ll paint you a picture

If you throw him a penny

A hedgehog is spiky

Painful to touch

He’ll turn into a ball

If you push him too much

A rodent survives

Living off his wits

In dirty kitchens

He eats all the bits

Crocs are so silent

Motionless they lay

Patiently waiting

To snap up their prey

A bat is a creature

That’s sure hard to find

He sleeps upside down

And what’s more he’s blind!

Penguins are lively

And can handle the cold

At least minus fifty

Or so I am told

A scorpion is scary

He’d cause you to wail

If you had the misfortune

To encounter his tail!

Cockroaches are special

No doubt you’ll be thrilled

When you finally realize

They can never be killed!

A snail moves so slowly

Leaving little to chance

But he’s on the menu

If he slips into France

Pandas are scarce

And that’s oh so true

It’s hardly surprising

Cos they only eat bamboo!

Fish like the water

Rivers and the seas

Freely they roam

Going where they please

And then there’s the human

The smart one at that

The one and only life form

That destroys his own habitat!

Are we really the masters?

Or are dolphins the best?

My money’s on flipper

Cos we failed the test!

[wilcopops]

It was an emergency operation. I paid for it. The girls went to an ATM after work and paid me back. The next day their manager paid them. No one was going to let the dog die. The Vet did the operation an hour before I got there so she did it not knowing if she would be paid.

Dogs got domesticated by themselves.

Cave men threw away bones and things the dogs would eat. The dogs began to follow the cavemen around and provide security for the tribe by barking at intruders.

The cavemen kept the dogs that worked and hunted the best and ate the others. The wolf was bred out and domestic dog who worked for man bred in. A good sheep dog is worth 4 men to round up sheep or cattle.

By themselves? Not really......

There is no great certainty of how dogs became domesticated, but there are some unavoidable facts about wolves - they aren’t a domesticated breed. Don’t confuse domesticated with “tame” either - they are not the same.

All dogs are descended from Wolves who MAN domesticated (see a definition of Domesticate if you don’t know what that means). DNA has ruled out any other species.

“Tamed” wolves seem to have accompanied hunter- gathers but the advent of agriculture seems to have brought about the big breeding of “purpose-built” domesticated dogs.

That means that the first “domesticated” dogs were probably bred from hand raised wolves. Wolves are very difficult to “socialise” (they are not domesticated) once they mature - pups are the key.

Wolves - and ALL dogs are by nature scavengers first, and would have been attracted to human settlement - the more “good-natured” ones would have had less trouble staying near these habitations and may well have passed on this “friendly” trait to their off-spring; the supply of easy food allowing them to breed more successfully. (See my post above).

As security wolves would have been of dubious use - remember wolves don’t bark - only domesticated dogs do this.

However it seems pretty certain that at some point man got involved in managing the breeding and the domestication of the wolf to dog commenced, and about 30,000 years ago in S.E. Asia the first domesticated dogs appeared. Man has continued to breed dogs to meet his requirement, whether for security, work or food. The result is the astounding variations you see in the “breeds” today. However if left to their own devices dogs although still dogs - not wolves - return to a more basic model - less size and colour variation etc., selective breeding often means the selection of recessive genes for the purposes of a particular trait in a dog.

You know dingos look almost exactly like soi dogs.

Man did not domesticate the wolf directly. Some wolves started the process themselves through scavenging around people and eventually becoming more doglike. Man then domesticated the result, which was something akin to the dingo. Interestingly, the dingo is actually a south-east asian animal that happens to still be roaming around Thailand (some of them not only “look like” dingoes as you point out, they actually are dingoes). They are the original “village dogs” in this part of the world but most westerners misguidedly label them as “strays”.

Domestication is a process carried out by man - no animal can domesticate it self - see my post above.

The dingo is a descendant - not an ancestor of domesticated dogs introduced into Australia (probably from Asia) by man.

[Cuban]

I like many animals - especially the tasty ones.

[wilcopops]

I like many animals - especially the tasty ones.

4 pages of debate, and that is the best you can come up with?

[sms747]

At least the guy is honest, unlike a lot of the sentimental tosh posted on here by hypocrites who pretend to care about animals, when in fact they eat them everyday!