Scotland to become independent in March 2016 if referendum passes

[RuamRudy]

Throughout this thread RaumRuby you have made some good points, unlike the lad from lancashire who can only post and paste, bigoted propaganda articles. However "Yes" I do think you are being rather naive in thinking that politics and politicians will be any different in a separated Scotland. I'm from Yorkshire a region with a similar size population who unfortunately are not as prosperous as those in Scotland, do I think a separate Yorkshire would be governed any better if it was free of the shackles of Westminster ( SNP description ), of course not. We have also been burdened with inefficient and corrupt politicians, including some who have been Scots, goggle Dennis Macshane, not to mention Tony WMD Blair and Gordon Bigot Brown. Every independence movement in history declares that they will forge a perfect society, yet strangely they all fall short on that ideal, Ireland-Charles Haughey, Bertie Arhern, South Africa-Jacob Zuma manage to produce unscrupulous politicians, yet you seem to think that Scotland will be different.

You will have read throughout this thread that I have been a great supporter of separation from Scotland, Having held this belief for over 50yrs, before you and most of the the members of the SNP were even born. My reasons for wanting independence from Scotland are I'm sure different from yours, my only proviso would be that Edinburgh and the south east of what is now

classed as Scotland would be returned to it's rightful owner, the ancient country of Northumbria.

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So what is the answer? I think we are in agreement that there is something rotten in government(s) and that it has been this way for a long time. Unfortunately, the last time there was any serious form of civil disobedience in the UK, it was not about injustice or corruption, but about kids wanting new trainers and ipods. Such a waste of a riot. So, in the absence of the people revolting for the right reasons, how do you suggest we fix the very obvious problems in our government? Certainly change will not come through the ballot box any time soon.

Falling short of the ideal is a fear, definitely, but the alternative of accepting the status quo is, for me, worse.

[StreetCowboy]

"... Certainly change will not come through the ballot box any time soon..."

Are you by any chance a paid-up member of the Socialist Workers' Party?

I can see how our revolutionary brethren might feel better able to seize power in a smaller state, particularly one that had not had long to establish itself. I can imagine Alex Salmond's dream of a prosperous Scotland tripped up very quickly by militants...

But anyway, what's the worst that could happen? We could always nationalise the oil industry for the good of the people.

SC

[RuamRudy]

"... Certainly change will not come through the ballot box any time soon..."

Are you by any chance a paid-up member of the Socialist Workers' Party?

I can see how our revolutionary brethren might feel better able to seize power in a smaller state, particularly one that had not had long to establish itself. I can imagine Alex Salmond's dream of a prosperous Scotland tripped up very quickly by militants...

But anyway, what's the worst that could happen? We could always nationalise the oil industry for the good of the people.

SC

Did you misunderstand what I said or did I not explain it correctly? I am not talking about anyone seizing power - we already see what happens there. Westminster is a perfect example of how self interest and protectionism builds strong defences.

No, I want an open, transparent democracy with the proper checks and balances in place, such that people can have a greater degree of confidence that their elected representatives are not fleecing the exchequer for their own personal gain.

With the UK government we have seen scandal after scandal for decades, and we have heard promise after promise after each, but the only changes we see are those that shore up the defences of Westminster to prevent scrutiny or attack.

So, to dispel any misapprehension or opportunity for you to twist the picture even further from reality, my politics are probably more liberal / centrist than you would expect.

[StreetCowboy]

 

"... Certainly change will not come through the ballot box any time soon..."

Are you by any chance a paid-up member of the Socialist Workers' Party?

I can see how our revolutionary brethren might feel better able to seize power in a smaller state, particularly one that had not had long to establish itself. I can imagine Alex Salmond's dream of a prosperous Scotland tripped up very quickly by militants...

But anyway, what's the worst that could happen? We could always nationalise the oil industry for the good of the people.

SC

Did you misunderstand what I said or did I not explain it correctly? I am not talking about anyone seizing power - we already see what happens there. Westminster is a perfect example of how self interest and protectionism builds strong defences.

No, I want an open, transparent democracy with the proper checks and balances in place, such that people can have a greater degree of confidence that their elected representatives are not fleecing the exchequer for their own personal gain.

With the UK government we have seen scandal after scandal for decades, and we have heard promise after promise after each, but the only changes we see are those that shore up the defences of Westminster to prevent scrutiny or attack.

So, to dispel any misapprehension or opportunity for you to twist the picture even further from reality, my politics are probably more liberal / centrist than you would expect.

 

Here's a bit more of the quote, in case you did not understand what you wrote:

"... Such a waste of a riot. So, in the absence of the people revolting for the right reasons, how do you suggest we fix the very obvious problems in our government? Certainly change will not come through the ballot box any time soon. "

I prefer to see that sort of thing on the news rather than outside my front window.

SC

[nontabury]

Throughout this thread RaumRuby you have made some good points, unlike the lad from lancashire who can only post and paste, bigoted propaganda articles. However "Yes" I do think you are being rather naive in thinking that politics and politicians will be any different in a separated Scotland. I'm from Yorkshire a region with a similar size population who unfortunately are not as prosperous as those in Scotland, do I think a separate Yorkshire would be governed any better if it was free of the shackles of Westminster ( SNP description ), of course not. We have also been burdened with inefficient and corrupt politicians, including some who have been Scots, goggle Dennis Macshane, not to mention Tony WMD Blair and Gordon Bigot Brown. Every independence movement in history declares that they will forge a perfect society, yet strangely they all fall short on that ideal, Ireland-Charles Haughey, Bertie Arhern, South Africa-Jacob Zuma manage to produce unscrupulous politicians, yet you seem to think that Scotland will be different.

You will have read throughout this thread that I have been a great supporter of separation from Scotland, Having held this belief for over 50yrs, before you and most of the the members of the SNP were even born. My reasons for wanting independence from Scotland are I'm sure different from yours, my only proviso would be that Edinburgh and the south east of what is now

classed as Scotland would be returned to it's rightful owner, the ancient country of Northumbria.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

So what is the answer? I think we are in agreement that there is something rotten in government(s) and that it has been this way for a long time. Unfortunately, the last time there was any serious form of civil disobedience in the UK, it was not about injustice or corruption, but about kids wanting new trainers and ipods. Such a waste of a riot. So, in the absence of the people revolting for the right reasons, how do you suggest we fix the very obvious problems in our government? Certainly change will not come through the ballot box any time soon.

Falling short of the ideal is a fear, definitely, but the alternative of accepting the status quo is, for me, worse.

From what I have read, it would seem that a separated Scotland would lurch further left within a few years, would that mean more Democracy and Less corruption, I think not. When I lived in the UK, every constituency I lived in was die-hard Socialist Labour, included the one represented by Scotsman Dennis Macshane, believe you me, they where all corrupt, admittedly some more than others, and yes I'm sure the Conservatives are just as bad. As for Scotland, one of the first acts that Alex Salmonds would steer through would be to lower capital gains tax in order to help big businesses, such as those operated by his ex-friend Donald Trump. Other SNP parliamentarians would include Angus Robertson.

So what is the answer. well unfortunately there is no magic solution, as they say" power corrupts" all that we can do is to keep strong checks on what our representatives are up to, and this is exactly what brought about the downfall of Dennis Macshane and others. What certainly will not help towards the goal of a perfect utopia is to think that splitting up a successful Union

Will achieve that objective. Personally I think that education and open information is the best we can hope for, and certainly do not accept anything a politician says, every time ANY politician opens his mouth, expect lies and half truths.

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[RuamRudy]

Here's a bit more of the quote, in case you did not understand what you wrote:

"... Such a waste of a riot. So, in the absence of the people revolting for the right reasons, how do you suggest we fix the very obvious problems in our government? Certainly change will not come through the ballot box any time soon. "

I prefer to see that sort of thing on the news rather than outside my front window.

SC

I did understand what you wrote - I have seen the tactic used before, where you twist a couple of words and create a smokescreen based on a faux controversy. But because I believe in tenets of democracy does not mean that I don't appreciate that sometimes the people need to take radical action to overcome an injustice.

What good did the poll tax revolt in Scotland do, other than criminalise many good, decent people who objected to its unfairness? The only thing that got Thatcher to realise that the people had enough was the rioting that occurred in London. If there was no positive action, its injustice would have prevailed much longer.

That you are not willing to stand up be counted is not unique. I lived in the far east of Russia for 10 years, where people still have outside or communal toilets and pensioners get $80 a month to survive on. Corruption is not even hidden there. The officials who bleed their regions dry flaunt it like a badge of honour without fear of retribution, and when I asked locals why they tolerated Putin and his thieving cronies, they would shrug and say 'this is Russia'. The UK may not be in that situation just yet, but we are moving ever closer to it. And our people are also moving closer to that helpless, sheep mentality.

[nontabury]

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[wilcopops]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=705880002787279&set=a.557945437580737.1073741827.107447742630511&type

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeell, this guy will have a weeeeeeeeee problem communicating with anyone except perhaps ET in any business venture eh............ .....................

You seem to be unaware of the history of English in Scotland, maybe a look at some Burns poetry will show how different the language was until the English tried to force their own version upon the country. A problem that many people suffer from is a lack of appreciation of the depth and breadth of difference between Scotland and England - they are more than Northerners who speak funny.

They have kept their own legal and educational systems in existence before union.

Winging about the currency is actually a bit of a red herring.......even the UK has to acknowledge the Euro and most lkarhe corporations do masses of trade only in that currency.

Perhaps Scotland who has 3 banks that issue bank notes, would just reprint them with the word "MUCKLE" replacing the word pound? (100 mickles = 1 muckle) - so long as people accept it, it really doesn't matter what you call it.

[wilcopops]

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8772-labour-councillor-under-fire-after-laughing-at-censorship-of-yes-campaign-in-local-schools

A Labour councillor has caused anger after appearing to mock local people angered at the news the council were censoring the official Yes campaign in local schools despite allowing pupils to view the pro-Union rival site.

Councillor Stephen McCabe has come under fire after he treated the situation as a joke and suggested it would not be resolved until after the independence referendum.

The episode began when Caitlin Brannigan, a student at a local School, tweeted a picture showing that Yes Scotland's site was blocked under content filtering from the Schools internal network but no such block was in place for Better Together.

of course the bias is unfounded..and of course the various members of the public,,teachers included who have voiced this concern are fully paid up members of the SNP,,We all know this dont we my unionist friends

My understanding is that the Scottish government is fairly pro-independence. I would be surprised that their education board does not support that position.

It appears that the site was promptly unblocked when the issue was raised, and that the block was not on the basis of political view, but categorisation of the site. It seems to me that the entire article is a desperate attempt to show bias where none was intended - another example of our stereotypical ability to whinge and complain, rather than commending the local authority for their prompt response, and their commitment to free speech.

SC

Indeed, SC.

Yet another example of the Yes campaign cherry picking from, and twisting, information for their propaganda.

They really are getting more and more desperate in their excuses for losing the referendum; and it hasn't even been held yet!

So everything you agree with is "fact" and everything you disagree with is "propaganda"? - gives a good insight into the way you form your opinions.

[wilcopops]

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8772-labour-councillor-under-fire-after-laughing-at-censorship-of-yes-campaign-in-local-schools

A Labour councillor has caused anger after appearing to mock local people angered at the news the council were censoring the official Yes campaign in local schools despite allowing pupils to view the pro-Union rival site.

Councillor Stephen McCabe has come under fire after he treated the situation as a joke and suggested it would not be resolved until after the independence referendum.

The episode began when Caitlin Brannigan, a student at a local School, tweeted a picture showing that Yes Scotland's site was blocked under content filtering from the Schools internal network but no such block was in place for Better Together.

of course the bias is unfounded..and of course the various members of the public,,teachers included who have voiced this concern are fully paid up members of the SNP,,We all know this dont we my unionist friends

My understanding is that the Scottish government is fairly pro-independence. I would be surprised that their education board does not support that position.

It appears that the site was promptly unblocked when the issue was raised, and that the block was not on the basis of political view, but categorisation of the site. It seems to me that the entire article is a desperate attempt to show bias where none was intended - another example of our stereotypical ability to whinge and complain, rather than commending the local authority for their prompt response, and their commitment to free speech.

SC

Indeed, SC.

Yet another example of the Yes campaign cherry picking from, and twisting, information for their propaganda.

They really are getting more and more desperate in their excuses for losing the referendum; and it hasn't even been held yet!

So everything you agree with is "fact" and everything you disagree with is "propaganda"? - gives a good insight into the way you form your opinions.

[7by7]

One form of propaganda is ignoring facts which don't suit one's purpose or twisting them so that they do. Something the Yes campaign have done many times.

Though I'm not saying this is the case with everything they produce.

There are arguments in favour of Scottish independence, there are arguments against it. Personally I think the arguments against outweigh those for.

[RuamRudy]

One form of propaganda is ignoring facts which don't suit one's purpose or twisting them so that they do. Something the Yes campaign have done many times.

Though I'm not saying this is the case with everything they produce.

There are arguments in favour of Scottish independence, there are arguments against it. Personally I think the arguments against outweigh those for.

And would you agree that the No campaigners also twist the truth to suit their aims?

Would you agree with Michael Portillo's assessment (see W2J's interesting clip from yesterday which has, funnily enough, been ignored by the Nat bashers today) that the UK government's strategy is to scare the public into voting no?

[7by7]

I did not realise that you and Wiganman held Portillo in such high esteem, that he is your guru.

No, I would not agree.

He is, as are you, entitled to hold and express his opinions; but he certainly doesn't speak for me and I doubt very much that he speaks for the UK government.

Edit:

Sorry, missed your first question.

Examples of the Yes campaign twisting facts abound; many have been shown in this topic.

Perhaps you will produce some examples of the Noes doing the same?

Edited May 22, 2014 by 7by7

[RuamRudy]

I did not realise that you and Wiganman held Portillo in such high esteem, that he is your guru.

No, I would not agree.

He is, as are you, entitled to hold and express his opinions; but he certainly doesn't speak for me and I doubt very much that he speaks for the UK government.

Michael Portillo - MP from 1984 to 1997, and again from 1999 to 2005. During that time he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Secretary of State for Employment, Secretary of State for Defence, and also Shadow Chancellor. I suspect that his analysis of the situation is a little more informed than yours, so my money is on him understanding things much better than your good self. Sorry.

[RuamRudy]

Sorry, missed your first question.

Examples of the Yes campaign twisting facts abound; many have been shown in this topic.

Perhaps you will produce some examples of the Noes doing the same?

Check my link from yesterday - analysis from Craig Murray, who's forensic investigation proved that the No Borders 'grassroots' campaign was actually a fake organisation with fake 'ordinary people'.

They even managed to issue a tweet from an 'ordinary person' who thought that she lived in Pollock, which is actually a fish, instead of the town of Pollok.

twitter.com/MackieJonathan/status/465912917146488832

[7by7]

I will answer your (7by7) first point now, where you asked about fiscal policy. So no European country has its own fiscal policy? No European country can claim sovereignty? There are 18 official Euro users inside the euro zone and 9 outwith. There are 3 unofficial users and 9 other currencies are pegged to it. Are you trying to say that Brussels controls the fiscal policies of 39 countries?

Fiscal policy is about a lot more than interest rates. It is about taxation and expenditure to influence demand and economic activity. Of course, interest rates are a factor, but not the heart of the matter.

Euro

The euro is managed and administered by the Frankfurt-based European Central Bank (ECB) and the Eurosystem (composed of the central banks of the eurozone countries). As an independent central bank, the ECB has sole authority to set monetary policy

Germany must take control of the eurozone crisis - before it's too late

.....Then came the crash of 2008. Governments had to bail out their banks. Some of them found themselves in the position of a developing country that had become heavily indebted in a currency that it did not control.....

"A currency that it did not control." The position Scotland would be in were it to continue with Sterling post independence; formal currency union or no. Is that what you want?

A moot point, anyway.

No matter how many links people produce to articles saying that a currency union between the UK and an independent Scotland is possible; at the moment it aint going to happen; whoever forms the UK government after next year's election.

The Yes campaign are selling the idea that an independent Scotland will be able to dictate terms to the UK government and get everything it wants. Are you really so naive as to believe that?

[7by7]

Sorry, missed your first question.

Examples of the Yes campaign twisting facts abound; many have been shown in this topic.

Perhaps you will produce some examples of the Noes doing the same?

Check my link from yesterday - analysis from Craig Murray, who's forensic investigation proved that the No Borders 'grassroots' campaign was actually a fake organisation with fake 'ordinary people'.

They even managed to issue a tweet from an 'ordinary person' who thought that she lived in Pollock, which is actually a fish, instead of the town of Pollok.

twitter.com/MackieJonathan/status/465912917146488832

One example, I'll give you that.

Still a long way to go to catch up with the Yes lobby, though.

[7by7]

I did not realise that you and Wiganman held Portillo in such high esteem, that he is your guru.

No, I would not agree.

He is, as are you, entitled to hold and express his opinions; but he certainly doesn't speak for me and I doubt very much that he speaks for the UK government.

Michael Portillo - MP from 1984 to 1997, and again from 1999 to 2005. During that time he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Secretary of State for Employment, Secretary of State for Defence, and also Shadow Chancellor. I suspect that his analysis of the situation is a little more informed than yours, so my money is on him understanding things much better than your good self. Sorry.

I am well aware of who Portillo is, thank you.

But he does not, I believe, speak for Better Together nor any other No campaigners.

As he retired from politics in 2005, and is not even a member of the Conservative party any more, to try and suggest that he speaks for the government is utterly ridiculous.

He is certainly no fan of Cameron.

I do like his, Portillo's, railway programmes on the telly, though.

Edited May 22, 2014 by 7by7

[RuamRudy]

I did not realise that you and Wiganman held Portillo in such high esteem, that he is your guru.

No, I would not agree.

He is, as are you, entitled to hold and express his opinions; but he certainly doesn't speak for me and I doubt very much that he speaks for the UK government.

Michael Portillo - MP from 1984 to 1997, and again from 1999 to 2005. During that time he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Secretary of State for Employment, Secretary of State for Defence, and also Shadow Chancellor. I suspect that his analysis of the situation is a little more informed than yours, so my money is on him understanding things much better than your good self. Sorry.

I am well aware of who Portillo is, thank you.

But he does not, I believe, speak for Better Together nor any other No campaigners.

As he retired from politics in 2005, and is not even a member of the Conservative party any more, to try and suggest that he speaks for the government is utterly ridiculous.

He is certainly no fan of Cameron.

I do like his, Portillo's, railway programmes on the telly, though.

Where did I suggest that he was a spokesman for anyone? You really must stop editorialising others' comments for effect, or at least be a bit more subtle with it.

What I clearly implied was that this man has huge political experience, and he understands how governments operate as well as the most qualified of observers. I concluded by saying that I would believe him before I believed you. I still feel that way.

[wilcopops]

Fiddling while Rome burns? (Pardon the pun!)

[wigantojapan]

They even managed to issue a tweet from an 'ordinary person' who thought that she lived in Pollock, which is actually a fish, instead of the town of Pollok. hahahaha the biggest laugh of today....aye fools and their money are easily parted

[wigantojapan]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203872450591205&set=a.3537554517085.253813.1219022233&type=1..good to see a wee bit of honesty

[StreetCowboy]

Anyway, WtoJ, I'm looking forward to later this evening, in the small hours of the morning, when Salford give Wigan the hiding they so richly deserve. Or not, as fate decrees. I don't know if you watched the Scotland - USA game from Barton on Irwell in the World Cup; it was a cracker.

Nontabury raised an interesting point regarding a proposal of an East - West divide rather than a North - South divide - a view to which I am not totally unsympathetic. The foolishness of such an idea merely highlights the foolishness of splitting up such a closely integrated United Kingdom. Remember that unlike the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, unlike the United States of America, or Mexico, we are one United Kingdom (singular)

SC

[wigantojapan]

SC you mention a North / South divide,,then you mention a East/West divide yet you conclude with we are one United Kingdom.... aye it no an even bounce...

[wigantojapan]

http://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz?from=QHNRbYZcW...What political party do you side with....

[RuamRudy]

http://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz?from=QHNRbYZcW...What political party do you side with....

1) Greens; 2) Labour; 3) SNP

[wigantojapan]

[wigantojapan]

Danny Alexander confirms no border checkpoints

Sun, 18/05/2014 -

This week’s admission by the UK government that there would be no border checkpoints between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK serves as further embarrassment to... seemed to recall quite a hue and cry from the independence bathers on this topic,,,

[transam]

You swim a lot then.......?..........

[7by7]

http://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz?from=QHNRbYZcW...What political party do you side with....

Well, according to that I side with Labour; which comes as no surprise to me.

What it has to do with this topic, though, even though there was one question about Scottish independence, only you know.