Scotland to become independent in March 2016 if referendum passes

[RuamRudy]

Yes, to me it is so I can respond.......

OK, perhaps my explanation was confusing, but as I am only 41ish, and left the UK permanently around 15 years ago, there is no way I could have worked there for 25 years, but during my working years I worked for a period in an office in Scotland but more extensively in the Central North Sea, currently British territory but would be considered Scottish waters post independence.

[The Fat Controller]

I live and work in Scotland and so far there is insufficient information available to make an informed decision.

The White Paper, and the SNP's subsequent comments, leave so many questions unanswered and the "yes" campaign are just as vague.

I work for a company that has workers across the UK, and would have a cross border pension scheme under independence.

How can I make an informed decision when nobody from the "yes" side can tell me what happens to tax and pensions, which are obviously the 2 things that would most affect me.

I am also married to a Thai, so who would become responsible for issuing visas to Scotland if we get a "yes" vote?

The required unravelling is going to cost an absolute fortune, look what happened with the Scottish Parliament building, massive overspend.

Putting emotion aside, there are many more questions than answers with only 4 months to go

[transam]

As usual, a Yes supporter who thinks that they will get everything that they want from the post independence negotiations; and will blame the Bastard English if they don't!

As usual you dont even need to rattle our English friends a little bit before Uk negotiations become English,,,but we all know that is how they have been brainwashed in England to believe,,but,some try and cover it up, unsuccessfully, by spouting on about only no one nation the UK and Brutishness. in the same breath as they squeeze out the England word in the name of political correctness.

Again it is only yourself and a few other people on here who claim that Scotland will get everything.

Its an negotiation,,,,that what it means a negotiation

,We all know that the British/.English are used to bullying,killing, seizing other people land and property in their terms of negotiation and that is when they did negotiate,,most of the time they just stormed in,,,,but this time they really have met their match.

oops and in case it has slipped your mind,,it will be an international team of negotiators ,, not just one man and his dog

I think you have just lost any argument you have with this post.......Crazy

[RuamRudy]

Rubbish. I read how the NHS takes care of folk in remote areas of Scotland, helicopters at the ready too if needed............

So there is no such thing as an NHS postcode lottery?

[7by7]

NHS providers in the UK are all linked because the UK is all one country; regardless of who controls a particular local NHS budget; as the Scottish Parliament does with the Scottish NHS via the grant it receives from Westminster.

So, if someone from one part of the UK needs treatment in another, they get it.

Huh? Is that true? So the NHS 'postcode lottery' is a lie? But the BBC said it exists - and you told me that they are impartial! http://www.bbc.com/news/health-21703667

I was trying to keep things simple; NHS funding is a very complex subject.

What I meant was that there is no political restrictions on someone from, say Scotland, receiving treatment in, say, England.

Obviously the situation is far more complex than that with funding issues etc.

But my central point remains. The wingsoverscotland article linked to is a complete and utter fabrication.

[wigantojapan]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/liars-plague-our-land/

Spending on NHS Scotland is determined solely by the Scottish Government, which allocates resources to it from its budget as it sees fit, with no input from WestminsterPolitical independence would therefore change absolutely nothing about the relationship between four services which are already independent. The mechanisms governing cross-border treatment and funding already exist and are used daily, and patients are further protected by the European Health Insurance Card scheme which ensures reciprocal treatment in any states in the European Economic Area.

We’re sure that “Vote No Borders” already know all this, but have made the decision to cynically take advantage of the fact that a great many Scots don’t in order to frighten them with the false prospect that they or their loved ones might suffer as a result of Scotland voting to run its own affairs.

(Which is presumably also why comments are disabled on all their YouTube videos, lest anyone want to let viewers know the truth.)

The author of this piece, and you, seem to have little or no understanding of how the system works.

After all, the Yes campaign never cherry pick or twist facts to suit their argument!

NHS providers in the UK are all linked because the UK is all one country; regardless of who controls a particular local NHS budget; as the Scottish Parliament does with the Scottish NHS via the grant it receives from Westminster.

So, if someone from one part of the UK needs treatment in another, they get it.

But someone from another country, even another EEA one, cannot, as the piece suggests, simply waltz into the UK and receive treatment.

Yes, reciprocal arrangements exist between the UK and other countries; but these cover visitors to the UK, not nationals of those countries who travel to the UK specifically for free NHS treatment.

Similar with the EHIC. Although valid for 5 years, it exists to cover EEA and Swiss citizens whilst travelling or living in other EEA states or Switzerland.

The EHIC does not cover people who travel to another EEA state specifically to obtain medical treatment.

So, it's wingsoverscotland who are twisting facts and dealing out misinformation on this!

Not for the first time; and it wont be the last.

The author of this piece, and you, seem to have little or no understanding of how the system works.

Eh sorry i worked in the NHS Scotland for many years...Family members still do..Other family members have worked in NHS ENgland....

The video is clearly aimed at Scottish people,and the people who do not know that the Scottish and English NHS are separate

there is a good reason why horses wear blinkers,

[The Fat Controller]

No lottery involved in Air Ambulances up here

Unlike the rest of the UK, where air ambulance services are funded by charitable donations, in Scotland the service is fully funded by NHS Scotland.

http://www.scottishambulance.com/WhatWeDo/TheParent.aspx

I talk to them most days when I am at work !

[7by7]

As usual, a Yes supporter who thinks that they will get everything that they want from the post independence negotiations; and will blame the Bastard English if they don't!

As usual you dont even need to rattle our English friends a little bit before Uk negotiations become English,,,but we all know that is how they have been brainwashed in England to believe,,but,some try and cover it up, unsuccessfully, by spouting on about only no one nation the UK and Brutishness. in the same breath as they squeeze out the England word in the name of political correctness.

Again it is only yourself and a few other people on here who claim that Scotland will get everything.

Its an negotiation,,,,that what it means a negotiation

,We all know that the British/.English are used to bullying,killing, seizing other people land and property in their terms of negotiation and that is when they did negotiate,,most of the time they just stormed in,,,,but this time they really have met their match.

oops and in case it has slipped your mind,,it will be an international team of negotiators ,, not just one man and his dog

Dear, oh dear.

The whole thrust of your posts in this topic has been that it is the English, not the Welsh or the Northern Irish, but the English who have over the years ground the Scots into the dust.

Hence my comment about the Bastard English. Apparently too subtle for you.

There are many examples, too many to list, of where the Yes campaign have confidently predicted that they will get what they want from the negotiations.

[RuamRudy]

No lottery involved in Air Ambulances up here

Unlike the rest of the UK, where air ambulance services are funded by charitable donations, in Scotland the service is fully funded by NHS Scotland.

http://www.scottishambulance.com/WhatWeDo/TheParent.aspx

I talk to them most days when I am at work !

But that is not so much to do with government largesse as the challenges of difficult terrain, limited infrastructure and centralised services.

[transam]

No lottery involved in Air Ambulances up here

Unlike the rest of the UK, where air ambulance services are funded by charitable donations, in Scotland the service is fully funded by NHS Scotland.

http://www.scottishambulance.com/WhatWeDo/TheParent.aspx

I talk to them most days when I am at work !

But that is not so much to do with government largesse as the challenges of difficult terrain, limited infrastructure and centralised services.

, perhaps to do with a big land mass and few people, don't you think..............

[RuamRudy]

, perhaps to do with a big land mass and few people, don't you think..............

Another way of putting it. What's your point?

[wigantojapan]

I live and work in Scotland and so far there is insufficient information available to make an informed decision.

The White Paper, and the SNP's subsequent comments, leave so many questions unanswered and the "yes" campaign are just as vague.

I work for a company that has workers across the UK, and would have a cross border pension scheme under independence.

How can I make an informed decision when nobody from the "yes" side can tell me what happens to tax and pensions, which are obviously the 2 things that would most affect me.

I am also married to a Thai, so who would become responsible for issuing visas to Scotland if we get a "yes" vote?

The required unravelling is going to cost an absolute fortune, look what happened with the Scottish Parliament building, massive overspend.

Putting emotion aside, there are many more questions than answers with only 4 months to go

there are many qualified people out there who will be able to answer your questions,,,If you can hook onto a comments page and say your concerns you will get good balanced answer eventually.

I agree with you the cost is going to be substantial ,,but that worked on both sides,,so its in both sides interest not to get too entrenched,,though .

What social media sites have you been looking at?

[7by7]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/liars-plague-our-land/

Spending on NHS Scotland is determined solely by the Scottish Government, which allocates resources to it from its budget as it sees fit, with no input from WestminsterPolitical independence would therefore change absolutely nothing about the relationship between four services which are already independent. The mechanisms governing cross-border treatment and funding already exist and are used daily, and patients are further protected by the European Health Insurance Card scheme which ensures reciprocal treatment in any states in the European Economic Area.

We’re sure that “Vote No Borders” already know all this, but have made the decision to cynically take advantage of the fact that a great many Scots don’t in order to frighten them with the false prospect that they or their loved ones might suffer as a result of Scotland voting to run its own affairs.

(Which is presumably also why comments are disabled on all their YouTube videos, lest anyone want to let viewers know the truth.)

The author of this piece, and you, seem to have little or no understanding of how the system works.

After all, the Yes campaign never cherry pick or twist facts to suit their argument!

NHS providers in the UK are all linked because the UK is all one country; regardless of who controls a particular local NHS budget; as the Scottish Parliament does with the Scottish NHS via the grant it receives from Westminster.

So, if someone from one part of the UK needs treatment in another, they get it.

But someone from another country, even another EEA one, cannot, as the piece suggests, simply waltz into the UK and receive treatment.

Yes, reciprocal arrangements exist between the UK and other countries; but these cover visitors to the UK, not nationals of those countries who travel to the UK specifically for free NHS treatment.

Similar with the EHIC. Although valid for 5 years, it exists to cover EEA and Swiss citizens whilst travelling or living in other EEA states or Switzerland.

The EHIC does not cover people who travel to another EEA state specifically to obtain medical treatment.

So, it's wingsoverscotland who are twisting facts and dealing out misinformation on this!

Not for the first time; and it wont be the last.

The author of this piece, and you, seem to have little or no understanding of how the system works.

Eh sorry i worked in the NHS Scotland for many years...Family members still do..Other family members have worked in NHS ENgland....

The video is clearly aimed at Scottish people,and the people who do not know that the Scottish and English NHS are separate

there is a good reason why horses wear blinkers,

So tell me;

Scotland becomes independent.

The EHIC card does not permit travel to another EEA country specifically to obtain medical treatment.

So how will people living in an independent Scotland be able to travel to the UK to receive medical treatment; unless they pay for it?

Yes, the video is aimed at Scottish people; as are all adverts from both sides in this campaign! Who else would either side aim their adverts at; Mongolians?

Scottish and English NHS may be separate, I'll take your word on that, but both are part of the National Health Service; and that nation is the UK.

If Scotland becomes independent then Scotland will no longer be part of the UK and the Scottish NHS will no longer be part of the UK's NHS.

How can it be when Scotland and the UK are two separate countries?

Or is this another thing the Yes campaign wants to retain from the union and yet another area where they expect to get their way?

[transam]

, perhaps to do with a big land mass and few people, don't you think..............

Another way of putting it. What's your point?

Weeeeeeell, it seems your point is Scots are not looked after, but they are, no different to any other folk. SCOTS in out lying areas will be air lifted to get treatment. Please don't think otherwise eh....

[wigantojapan]

As usual, a Yes supporter who thinks that they will get everything that they want from the post independence negotiations; and will blame the Bastard English if they don't!

As usual you dont even need to rattle our English friends a little bit before Uk negotiations become English,,,but we all know that is how they have been brainwashed in England to believe,,but,some try and cover it up, unsuccessfully, by spouting on about only no one nation the UK and Brutishness. in the same breath as they squeeze out the England word in the name of political correctness.

Again it is only yourself and a few other people on here who claim that Scotland will get everything.

Its an negotiation,,,,that what it means a negotiation

,We all know that the British/.English are used to bullying,killing, seizing other people land and property in their terms of negotiation and that is when they did negotiate,,most of the time they just stormed in,,,,but this time they really have met their match.

oops and in case it has slipped your mind,,it will be an international team of negotiators ,, not just one man and his dog

Dear, oh dear.

The whole thrust of your posts in this topic has been that it is the English, not the Welsh or the Northern Irish, but the English who have over the years ground the Scots into the dust.

Hence my comment about the Bastard English. Apparently too subtle for you.

There are many examples, too many to list, of where the Yes campaign have confidently predicted that they will get what they want from the negotiations.

I am not anti English in any shape or form,,so dear oh dear it is you self who is unclear on that,,,

,must be a shock to you that you are wrong,,cause you are never wrong in anything, and force feed people your opinion,,

,,you do try old boy i will give you that,,but lack a lot of substance....

.Again it is a charge you and nontebury have constantly spewed out....but have offered no evidence at all because there is none,,,

you for one would have went snooping for the evidence you proclaim.....

again just a tactic by the no camp to get personal to stop them from the debate.

[RuamRudy]

Weeeeeeell, it seems your point is Scots are not looked after, but they are, no different to any other folk. SCOTS in out lying areas will be air lifted to get treatment. Please don't think otherwise eh....

Oh, please don't start the same nonsense as 7by7 by putting very false words in my mouth. Where did I say that Scots are not looked after???

[The Fat Controller]

Nobody has given even an indication of what income tax rates would be required by an independent Scotland.

If anyone can point me to some actual, definitive figures I will be very surprised.

PS I just found this, pretty balanced overview I think.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/10664563/The-true-costs-of-Scottish-independence-How-it-will-affect-your-money.html

Edited May 24, 2014 by The Fat Controller

[wigantojapan]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/liars-plague-our-land/

Spending on NHS Scotland is determined solely by the Scottish Government, which allocates resources to it from its budget as it sees fit, with no input from WestminsterPolitical independence would therefore change absolutely nothing about the relationship between four services which are already independent. The mechanisms governing cross-border treatment and funding already exist and are used daily, and patients are further protected by the European Health Insurance Card scheme which ensures reciprocal treatment in any states in the European Economic Area.

We’re sure that “Vote No Borders” already know all this, but have made the decision to cynically take advantage of the fact that a great many Scots don’t in order to frighten them with the false prospect that they or their loved ones might suffer as a result of Scotland voting to run its own affairs.

(Which is presumably also why comments are disabled on all their YouTube videos, lest anyone want to let viewers know the truth.)

The author of this piece, and you, seem to have little or no understanding of how the system works.

After all, the Yes campaign never cherry pick or twist facts to suit their argument!

NHS providers in the UK are all linked because the UK is all one country; regardless of who controls a particular local NHS budget; as the Scottish Parliament does with the Scottish NHS via the grant it receives from Westminster.

So, if someone from one part of the UK needs treatment in another, they get it.

But someone from another country, even another EEA one, cannot, as the piece suggests, simply waltz into the UK and receive treatment.

Yes, reciprocal arrangements exist between the UK and other countries; but these cover visitors to the UK, not nationals of those countries who travel to the UK specifically for free NHS treatment.

Similar with the EHIC. Although valid for 5 years, it exists to cover EEA and Swiss citizens whilst travelling or living in other EEA states or Switzerland.

The EHIC does not cover people who travel to another EEA state specifically to obtain medical treatment.

So, it's wingsoverscotland who are twisting facts and dealing out misinformation on this!

Not for the first time; and it wont be the last.

The author of this piece, and you, seem to have little or no understanding of how the system works.

Eh sorry i worked in the NHS Scotland for many years...Family members still do..Other family members have worked in NHS ENgland....

The video is clearly aimed at Scottish people,and the people who do not know that the Scottish and English NHS are separate

there is a good reason why horses wear blinkers,

So tell me;

Scotland becomes independent.

The EHIC card does not permit travel to another EEA country specifically to obtain medical treatment.

So how will people living in an independent Scotland be able to travel to the UK to receive medical treatment; unless they pay for it?

Yes, the video is aimed at Scottish people; as are all adverts from both sides in this campaign! Who else would either side aim their adverts at; Mongolians?

Scottish and English NHS may be separate, I'll take your word on that, but both are part of the National Health Service; and that nation is the UK.

If Scotland becomes independent then Scotland will no longer be part of the UK and the Scottish NHS will no longer be part of the UK's NHS.

How can it be when Scotland and the UK are two separate countries?

Or is this another thing the Yes campaign wants to retain from the union and yet another area where they expect to get their way?

Personally i know of at least 10 Mongolians who will be able to vote ,,so yes it is aimed at all people who can vote.

Wel,l there is your homework for you son, if you are questioning if Scotland and England NHS are not separate and what that all entails?.

why dont you go onto yes NHS Scotland and ask your questions seeing you are so open minded?

.

There , professionals will be able and willing to answer your lack of knowledge on the subject matter

keep telling you that

[7by7]

As usual, a Yes supporter who thinks that they will get everything that they want from the post independence negotiations; and will blame the Bastard English if they don't!

As usual you dont even need to rattle our English friends a little bit before Uk negotiations become English,,,but we all know that is how they have been brainwashed in England to believe,,but,some try and cover it up, unsuccessfully, by spouting on about only no one nation the UK and Brutishness. in the same breath as they squeeze out the England word in the name of political correctness.

Again it is only yourself and a few other people on here who claim that Scotland will get everything.

Its an negotiation,,,,that what it means a negotiation

,We all know that the British/.English are used to bullying,killing, seizing other people land and property in their terms of negotiation and that is when they did negotiate,,most of the time they just stormed in,,,,but this time they really have met their match.

oops and in case it has slipped your mind,,it will be an international team of negotiators ,, not just one man and his dog

Dear, oh dear.

The whole thrust of your posts in this topic has been that it is the English, not the Welsh or the Northern Irish, but the English who have over the years ground the Scots into the dust.

Hence my comment about the Bastard English. Apparently too subtle for you.

There are many examples, too many to list, of where the Yes campaign have confidently predicted that they will get what they want from the negotiations.

I am not anti English in any shape or form,,so dear oh dear it is you self who is unclear on that,,,

,must be a shock to you that you are wrong,,cause you are never wrong in anything, and force feed people your opinion,,

,,you do try old boy i will give you that,,but lack a lot of substance....

.Again it is a charge you and nontebury have constantly spewed out....but have offered no evidence at all because there is none,,,

you for one would have went snooping for the evidence you proclaim.....

again just a tactic by the no camp to get personal to stop them from the debate.

As with many of your posts, the above is so ridiculous and contradicts so many of your other posts as to be unworthy of specific a response.

Which is why I and others ignore much of the drivel you post.

[7by7]

So tell me;

Scotland becomes independent.

The EHIC card does not permit travel to another EEA country specifically to obtain medical treatment.

So how will people living in an independent Scotland be able to travel to the UK to receive medical treatment; unless they pay for it?

Yes, the video is aimed at Scottish people; as are all adverts from both sides in this campaign! Who else would either side aim their adverts at; Mongolians?

Scottish and English NHS may be separate, I'll take your word on that, but both are part of the National Health Service; and that nation is the UK.

If Scotland becomes independent then Scotland will no longer be part of the UK and the Scottish NHS will no longer be part of the UK's NHS.

How can it be when Scotland and the UK are two separate countries?

Or is this another thing the Yes campaign wants to retain from the union and yet another area where they expect to get their way?

Personally i know of at least 10 Mongolians who will be able to vote ,,so yes it is aimed at all people who can vote.

Wel,l there is your homework for you son, if you are questioning if Scotland and England NHS are not separate and what that all entails?.

why dont you go onto yes NHS Scotland and ask your questions seeing you are so open minded?

.

There , professionals will be able and willing to answer your lack of knowledge on the subject matter

keep telling you that

You, and your friends at liesoverscotland, can dodge the issue all you want.

The situation now when Scotland is part of the UK will not stay the same if Scotland leaves the UK.

Scotland will be a foreign country and the same rules and regulations will apply to Scots receiving NHS treatment in the UK as apply to other foreigners.

Why do you find that so difficult to comprehend?

Or is this yet another example of the Yes campaign's apparent desire to be an independent nation whilst maintaining all the benefits of being part of the UK but none of the responsibilities?

[phuketjock]

Dear oh dear, what nonsense is this now?

When did the UK become a nation?

As far as I am aware the United Kingdom is and always has been a union of three countries and

N Ireland.

If you come from the UK you are British by geographical location but your nationality is Scottish,

English, Welsh or Northern Irish.

The United Kingdom is not, never has been, and never will be a nation, and it is my sincere hope

that after September it will be one nation less than it is now!!!!

Dear, oh dear!

Even after this was fully explained a few days ago, you still don't get it!

The UK became a nation in 1707 with the Act of Union.

It was enlarged with the addition of the whole of Ireland in 1800, and reduced when what is now the RoI left in 1922.

The international community and international law and international institutions recognise the UK, not the four countries which constitute the union.

You do not have Scottish nationality, I do not have English nationality. We both have British nationality.

You do not have a Scottish passport, I do not have an English passport. We both have British passports.

Were you to get into trouble of some sort in Phuket, it is not to the Scottish embassy you would turn to for assistance; because there isn't one. It would be to the British embassy.

As far as I am aware, the only international organisations which consider the four countries which currently constitute the UK to be separate nations are

• FIFA
• the IRB
• the ICC
• the Commonwealth Games Federation.

Can you add anymore? Especially political organisations as these four are all sporting ones.

You seem to be determined to show everyone what a wally you really are

The UK became a union in 1707 hence the term UNION.

Ireland joining and leaving irrelevant.

Scotland is a European parliament constituencey formally recognised by the European Parliament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_(European_Parliament_constituency) so you are wrong there.

I really do not care what your nationality is but I am most certainly Scottish by nationality and British

by geography.

You are correct I do not have a Scottish passport ,as a Scottish national and thereby a member of

the United Kindom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland I am entitled to, and have, a European Union

Passport. So you are wrong again, you and I do not have British passports, if you have one?

Should I find myself in need of assistance from the British Embassy I would have no problems whatsoever,

as a Scottish national, getting it, as all overseas Embassies and consulates are jointly owned and manned

and operated by all the members of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I believe the European Parliament could be called a political organisation no?

[RuamRudy]

You, and your friends at liesoverscotland, can dodge the issue all you want.

The situation now when Scotland is part of the UK will not stay the same if Scotland leaves the UK.

Scotland will be a foreign country and the same rules and regulations will apply to Scots receiving NHS treatment in the UK as apply to other foreigners.

Why do you find that so difficult to comprehend?

Or is this yet another example of the Yes campaign's apparent desire to be an independent nation whilst maintaining all the benefits of being part of the UK but none of the responsibilities?

I appreciate that it is in your interests to make everything seem complicated and unworkable, but there already exists a mechanism for patients residing in Scotland to receive specialist treatment in English hospitals AND for the costs associated with that treatment to be reimbursed to the English NHS. In 2012/13, reimbursements were made in the region of GBP 11 million.

http://www.nsd.scot.nhs.uk/%5C%5C/services/specialised/index.html

Edited May 24, 2014 by RuamRudy

[StreetCowboy]

How the voting thing % wise will work I don't know, but imagine the YES get it 55/45 and the idea turns out to be a complete cock-up for Scotland.

How are the 45% going to feel, how will they react down the line.............?

For a serious Scotland move the vote should be near unanimous in my opinion......

As yet, no real answers to my question..........

I thought I clarified that with all our whinging after the 1979 referendum, we made such a hurdle extremely unlikely - I now regret not having kept my gob shut on the topic. Had I realised that one day in the future guys like RuamRudy would treat independence as a protest vote against corruption in Westminster, I might have been far more circumspect.

SC

[RuamRudy]

How the voting thing % wise will work I don't know, but imagine the YES get it 55/45 and the idea turns out to be a complete cock-up for Scotland.

How are the 45% going to feel, how will they react down the line.............?

For a serious Scotland move the vote should be near unanimous in my opinion......

As yet, no real answers to my question..........

I thought I clarified that with all our whinging after the 1979 referendum, we made such a hurdle extremely unlikely - I now regret not having kept my gob shut on the topic. Had I realised that one day in the future guys like RuamRudy would treat independence as a protest vote against corruption in Westminster, I might have been far more circumspect.

SC

Genuine question because I am genuinely interested in your opinion - do you think my rationale is unreasonable in its justification? Or do you really think that the majority of YES supporters are motivated by some sort of anti-English sentiment and I am either lying or atypical?

[StreetCowboy]

...

I thought I clarified that with all our whinging after the 1979 referendum, we made such a hurdle extremely unlikely - I now regret not having kept my gob shut on the topic. Had I realised that one day in the future guys like RuamRudy would treat independence as a protest vote against corruption in Westminster, I might have been far more circumspect.

SC

Genuine question because I am genuinely interested in your opinion - do you think my rationale is unreasonable in its justification? Or do you really think that the majority of YES supporters are motivated by some sort of anti-English sentiment and I am either lying or atypical?

Yes, I think it unreasonable - meaning that while I might concur on the facts, I don't come to the same result, and in my opinion, if democracy in Westminster is broken then the answer is to fix it, since there is no reason to believe that democracy in Holyrood will be any better. We may attract a less ambitious and competent class of crook, due to the smaller prizes available, but that will reflect in their performance, not their integrity.

I think many Yes voters are motivated by a deeply-seated feeling of injustice and resentment that I find far more common in Scots resident in Scotland than anywhere else, and which I believe is not justified.

I certainly don't think that you are lying, but you are clearly atypical from some of the experiences that you quote.

SC

[wigantojapan]

Was the referendum won or not in 79 Yes it was is the answer ,,then they moved the goal posts to include the non voters and the dead and came up with the 40%....

. and just because you yourself, don't feel and injustice and resentment doesn't mean that it is nor rightfully justified,, after all it is a democracy and all experiences and opinions are as valued and as equal as the rest.

i also do not feel an injustice or resentment as i live my life without allegiances to any border or flag,, doesn't mean to say i will not expose some of the deliberate lies and propaganda the no camp is indulged in

Neither does it mean that i might expose the lies and propaganda of a future Scottish government

remember a democracy means the rights of people to vote,,this is the first time ever the people of Scotland have had a democratic right to vote on the issue of full independence.

[RuamRudy]

Yes, I think it unreasonable - meaning that while I might concur on the facts, I don't come to the same result, and in my opinion, if democracy in Westminster is broken then the answer is to fix it, since there is no reason to believe that democracy in Holyrood will be any better. We may attract a less ambitious and competent class of crook, due to the smaller prizes available, but that will reflect in their performance, not their integrity.

I think many Yes voters are motivated by a deeply-seated feeling of injustice and resentment that I find far more common in Scots resident in Scotland than anywhere else, and which I believe is not justified.

I certainly don't think that you are lying, but you are clearly atypical from some of the experiences that you quote.

SC

To be honest, as I have grown and matured, my reasoning for supporting independence has changed. I can honestly claim that I have supported independence since I was 7 years old, when, going with my mother for her to vote in the 1979 referendum, she told me that she was voting no because my Aunt Ella lived in Darlington. To me, that seemed such a silly reason to vote no that, on that very day, I decided independence was the way forward.

Then during my formative years, exposed to Thatcherism and the decline of the mining and heavy industries in Scotland, I must confess that I saw the actions of the government as a deliberate assault on Scotland, although there is no denying that the whole country suffered under her. But it was the tories who were doing the damage and they had, in my eyes, no mandate to govern Scotland as they had no majority of MPs in Scotland.

Also, like many adolescents, I developed a grudge when I came to realise that, in general, England and English are default terms for any part of the UK. If you are English, you quite possibly don't pick up on it, but it is a fact even today. HOWEVER, I want to stress most clearly - that could never be a justification for secession. It is, I eventually came to realise, a mere irritation and an opportunity to educate.

So where does it leave my explanation for my intent? Certainly, having believed in it for so long, even if the reasoning behind my initial conclusion was as shaky as my mother's, it is something that is part of my psyche. Maybe I could be accused of building the argument to suit the objective, but I still stand by my point. Democracy is not changing Westminster for the better, and sadly I cannot see any sign of an alternative way forward. If we could tear up our current institutions and start again, I would be all for it, but I simply do not see that happening.

[7by7]

Dear oh dear, what nonsense is this now?

When did the UK become a nation?

As far as I am aware the United Kingdom is and always has been a union of three countries and

N Ireland.

If you come from the UK you are British by geographical location but your nationality is Scottish,

English, Welsh or Northern Irish.

The United Kingdom is not, never has been, and never will be a nation, and it is my sincere hope

that after September it will be one nation less than it is now!!!!

Dear, oh dear!

Even after this was fully explained a few days ago, you still don't get it!

The UK became a nation in 1707 with the Act of Union.

It was enlarged with the addition of the whole of Ireland in 1800, and reduced when what is now the RoI left in 1922.

The international community and international law and international institutions recognise the UK, not the four countries which constitute the union.

You do not have Scottish nationality, I do not have English nationality. We both have British nationality.

You do not have a Scottish passport, I do not have an English passport. We both have British passports.

Were you to get into trouble of some sort in Phuket, it is not to the Scottish embassy you would turn to for assistance; because there isn't one. It would be to the British embassy.

As far as I am aware, the only international organisations which consider the four countries which currently constitute the UK to be separate nations are

• FIFA
• the IRB
• the ICC
• the Commonwealth Games Federation.

Can you add anymore? Especially political organisations as these four are all sporting ones.

You seem to be determined to show everyone what a wally you really are

The UK became a union in 1707 hence the term UNION.

Ireland joining and leaving irrelevant.

Scotland is a European parliament constituencey formally recognised by the European Parliament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_(European_Parliament_constituency) so you are wrong there.

I really do not care what your nationality is but I am most certainly Scottish by nationality and British

by geography.

You are correct I do not have a Scottish passport ,as a Scottish national and thereby a member of

the United Kindom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland I am entitled to, and have, a European Union

Passport. So you are wrong again, you and I do not have British passports, if you have one?

Should I find myself in need of assistance from the British Embassy I would have no problems whatsoever,

as a Scottish national, getting it, as all overseas Embassies and consulates are jointly owned and manned

and operated by all the members of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I believe the European Parliament could be called a political organisation no?

The UK is a nation made up of 4 countries, much the same as the USA is a nation made up of 50 states; although our political systems are different.

Scotland, currently, is no more an independent country than Texas is.

Following your logic, the south east of England is a separate nation as it is a European parliament constituency; as are other regions of England. They must all be separate nations as well!

Not to mention the constituencies in other EU states; I wonder if they realise that they are separate nations and not, for example part of Germany or France!

The truth is, of course, that the European parliament does not consider Scotland to be a separate nation, but a constituency within the UK.

Have a look at your passport. It says on the front 'European Union' because the UK is part of the EU. But it also says 'United Kingdom of Great Britiain and Northern Ireland.' That's because it's a British passport; there is no such thing as a European passport per se.

You are right about one thing, though.

You say "Should I find myself in need of assistance from the British Embassy I would have no problems whatsoever, as a Scottish national, getting it,"

Exactly; British embassy, not Scottish embassy. As a British citizen you are entitled to the same assistance from them as any other British citizen.

But you go on "as all overseas Embassies and consulates are jointly owned and manned and operated by all the members of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."

No, they are owned, or leased, by the Foreign Office. A department of the British government.

If correcting your assumptions and misinformed posts makes me a wally in your eyes, so be it.

Of course, RR denies any of the triumvirate use insults when posting, so I'm sure that you did not mean it as such.

[wigantojapan]

eventually came to realise, a mere irritation and an opportunity to educate. Well said ruam...

[7by7]

You, and your friends at liesoverscotland, can dodge the issue all you want.

The situation now when Scotland is part of the UK will not stay the same if Scotland leaves the UK.

Scotland will be a foreign country and the same rules and regulations will apply to Scots receiving NHS treatment in the UK as apply to other foreigners.

Why do you find that so difficult to comprehend?

Or is this yet another example of the Yes campaign's apparent desire to be an independent nation whilst maintaining all the benefits of being part of the UK but none of the responsibilities?

I appreciate that it is in your interests to make everything seem complicated and unworkable, but there already exists a mechanism for patients residing in Scotland to receive specialist treatment in English hospitals AND for the costs associated with that treatment to be reimbursed to the English NHS. In 2012/13, reimbursements were made in the region of GBP 11 million.

http://www.nsd.scot.nhs.uk/%5C%5C/services/specialised/index.html

What is it you people find so difficult to understand about the fact that if Scotland becomes independent then it will no longer be part of the UK?

That's what independence means <deleted>!

What happened in the past while Scotland was part of the UK has nothing to do with what will happen in the future if Scotland leaves the UK.

As I said, it becomes more and more obvious that you and the other Yes supporters want to retain all the benefits of being part of the UK, without any of the responsibilities.

Tough; you can't.