Illegal Daily/Weekly Renters In Our Condominium

[jimmybee]

We have several owners in our 6-year old condominium, who rent to backpackers & tourists on a daily or weekly basis. Many of us in the building want this practice stopped as it causes extra wear & tear on the common areas, and creates headaches for building security. No one in management knows the identity of these renters, unlike a hotel which has to submit names of it occupants on a daily basis. In addition, our building is getting the reputation of renting to low-lifes which in turn lowers the value of our units.

We know that renting a condo on a daily/weekly basis is against the Thai Hotel Law. However, the attorney for our management company says that to put a stop to this practice, we need a clause in our condo handbook (the one which prohibits some pets, signs on condo doors, etc), which specifically states that "an owner cannot rent out his unit on a daily or weekly basis". Our condo committee has resisted such a clause.

Do any of you know of the name of a condo building, or several names, which has such a clause in their condo handbook?

Edited November 26, 2013 by metisdead
Please do not post using all caps. Topic title edited to remove all caps.

[trogers]

The juristic manager should give a written warning notice to the unit owner to stop operating his unit as a hotel. If not, the name of the unit owner and his address shall be reported to the tax authorities.

This should be enough to halt such activities...

[wooloomooloo]

Sounds like you want your cake and eat it, jimmybee. Why anymore wear and tear from backpackers than any other resident?

Have you specifically clarified that renting to a tourist constitutes the abode as a hotel?

[PattayaPhom]

Maintenance fees paid or no? If you go down this route you will make your condo worthless. Classic example is Beach Mountain in Bang Saray, units there are unsalable and cant be given away due to the management commitee running the place like Staleg 17. Leave it be and put up with a little extra footsteps.

[KittenKong]

As far as I know the condo owners are also required to report the ID of any non-Thai staying in their rooms to Immigration, just like hotels are. This probably isn't happening and so your local Immigration office may be pleased to hear about it.

[manarak]

Difficult nut to crack.

- You say "many of us" but the reality is that the committee doesn't want to act.

- The rentals are not illegal just because they haven't been reported. Probably a fine is due for not fulfilling reporting obligations (allegedly - how do you know the owners didn't report to immigration?), but that is all.

- Then there is the problem of the limitation of use of freehold property. I won't accept anybody making rules on who is allowed to stay in my property for which duration and who is not, because this infringes on my property rights.

- and my final thought is... if the condo is within reach of packpackers' purse, it can't be really that posh, can it?

[Delight]

Unless the condo Rules and Regs prohibit this activity -then there is nothing that can be done-except to change the Rules and Regs.

This requires agreement by at least 50% of the co -owners (by vote)at a general meeting . Not easy

The problem is that the Initial R & R would have been written by the developer. It would not have been in the interest of the developer to include these limitations when the condos were being sold.

It may be possible to pass a resolution, with a simple majority at such a general meeting, to levy a surcharge on co-owners who operate this way.

Your JPM will be able to advise you on this.

[KittenKong]

The condo rules may have a blanket provision prohibiting illegal activity or using the units for illegal purposes. If so this could be used in relation to short-term lets and failing to report tenant ID to immigration, both of which are technically against the law. You need to study the rule book.

The point isnt that failing to report ID is a major crime but that any extra inconvenience to the owners may encourage them to stop doing short-term lets. Once the immigration police (and the tax department?) start asking questions the owners may want to think again.

I also like the idea of voting in a common fee surcharge for units that have tenants. This could take the form of a fee of (say) 2000B per tenant regardless of length of stay, which should discourage any tenancies of just a few days.

[PattayaPhom]

The condo rules may have a blanket provision prohibiting illegal activity or using the units for illegal purposes. If so this could be used in relation to short-term lets and failing to report tenant ID to immigration, both of which are technically against the law. You need to study the rule book.

The point isnt that failing to report ID is a major crime but that any extra inconvenience to the owners may encourage them to stop doing short-term lets. Once the immigration police (and the tax department?) start asking questions the owners may want to think again.

I also like the idea of voting in a common fee surcharge for units that have tenants. This could take the form of a fee of (say) 2000B per tenant regardless of length of stay, which should discourage any tenancies of just a few days.

Maintenance charges are paid per unit so whether the owner or tenant uses them is the same, paid for 365 days, allowed 365 days use. As we are in a holiday destination a large proportion of condos are used as rentals, why should the management tax this, which basically what the 2,000 levy amounts to. Seriously the OP should let alone, I have seen first hand what happens when restrictions are placed on freehold condos by the commitee. As stated, Beach Mountain Bang Saray is now worthless due to restrictions on lettings and sales, plus extra fees imposed when selling. Owners are desperate to offload at ridiculously low prices but still cant..

[garyk]

I travel in Thailand on a daily basis. And to be honest those are the places I go first to find a room. Most farang like me do not know these condo's are renting out rooms. It is mostly Thai's where I stay. Very nice rooms at a reasonable rate.

Never heard anyone complain but I do not stay around more than a month or so usually.

Dig's here in Thailand are so easy and cheap to rent due to the over building of condos and apartments. It makes my travels here very enjoyable and cheap.

Not much help to the OP, if I owned a condo, Then I would complain if it were getting noisy and hard for owners to live.

Edited November 27, 2013 by garyk

[ripley]

I own my condo unit and its share of common property and pay just like everyone else for the upkeep. With ownership comes responsibility and so I recognize that I don't have license to create disturbances in the community and that I'm liable for any damages done by me or mine to common property.

I believe that most if not all condos have already got regulations against noise and disruptive behaviour, as well as provisions for damages. So, I think the op's problem is easily managed on a case by case basis.

There are those who feel that those who rent out their condos, even on a permanent or semi-permanent basis, should be penalized or should contribute more to maintenance. Personally, I think that's rubbish. As long as I take full responsibility for myself and my tenants I'm not unduly impacting the community.

[davejones]

Maintenance fees paid or no? If you go down this route you will make your condo worthless. Classic example is Beach Mountain in Bang Saray, units there are unsalable and cant be given away due to the management commitee running the place like Staleg 17. Leave it be and put up with a little extra footsteps.

They can easily be sold. To prove it, I will buy one.

[davejones]

I suppose you should have checked the rules before buying the condo. Buy in a building where daily renting is allowed and you'll end up with daily rentals. Also sounds like most owners are happy with the current situation, otherwise you'd be able to force a rule change. Sounds like you're the minority. That's tough if you don't like it, but that comes with buying a condo.

[davejones]

Sounds like you want your cake and eat it, jimmybee. Why anymore wear and tear from backpackers than any other resident?

Have you specifically clarified that renting to a tourist constitutes the abode as a hotel?

Daily and weekly renters almost always cause more wear and tear. Long-term renters tend to work, so are out all day. Daily renters are back and forth all day and generally treat places with less care. I'm surprised that you don't know this.

[PattayaPhom]

Maintenance fees paid or no? If you go down this route you will make your condo worthless. Classic example is Beach Mountain in Bang Saray, units there are unsalable and cant be given away due to the management commitee running the place like Staleg 17. Leave it be and put up with a little extra footsteps.

They can easily be sold. To prove it, I will buy one.

Good luck if you do. Previously it was the only affordable condo in Bang Saray but that has changed and many more in that area are due for completion. If you are only going to live there and have no intention of selling, providing you dont mind lights out at 7pm, roll call twice a day and no where to tunnel out of, it will be a bragain

[KittenKong]

Maintenance charges are paid per unit so whether the owner or tenant uses them is the same, paid for 365 days, allowed 365 days use. As we are in a holiday destination a large proportion of condos are used as rentals, why should the management tax this, which basically what the 2,000 levy amounts to.

Perhaps for the same reason that many municipalities across the world charge an accommodation tax per person per night for tourists? I seem to remember reading recently about this in Jomtien also.

Seriously the OP should let alone, I have seen first hand what happens when restrictions are placed on freehold condos by the commitee. As stated, Beach Mountain Bang Saray is now worthless due to restrictions on lettings and sales, plus extra fees imposed when selling. Owners are desperate to offload at ridiculously low prices but still cant..

But such rules could also make the place nicer to live in. I certainly wouldn't complain if short term rentals were completely banned in my building. They don't benefit me or any other long-term resident one jot.

[PattayaPhom]

Maintenance charges are paid per unit so whether the owner or tenant uses them is the same, paid for 365 days, allowed 365 days use. As we are in a holiday destination a large proportion of condos are used as rentals, why should the management tax this, which basically what the 2,000 levy amounts to.

Perhaps for the same reason that many municipalities across the world charge an accommodation tax per person per night for tourists? I seem to remember reading recently about this in Jomtien also.

Seriously the OP should let alone, I have seen first hand what happens when restrictions are placed on freehold condos by the commitee. As stated, Beach Mountain Bang Saray is now worthless due to restrictions on lettings and sales, plus extra fees imposed when selling. Owners are desperate to offload at ridiculously low prices but still cant..

But such rules could also make the place nicer to live in. I certainly wouldn't complain if short term rentals were completely banned in my building. They don't benefit me or any other long-term resident one jot.

But you are a tenant not an owner. If renting your unit that you purchased cant be done without an extorinate tax it will devalue the whole condo

[KittenKong]

But such rules could also make the place nicer to live in. I certainly wouldn't complain if short term rentals were completely banned in my building. They don't benefit me or any other long-term resident one jot.

But you are a tenant not an owner. If renting your unit that you purchased cant be done without an extorinate tax it will devalue the whole condo

I have no problems with long-term rentals and there is plenty of demand for these in my building.

And even though I'm not a tenant myself any more I'm still much more interested in my building being nice to live in than it being a good investment.

[jimmybee]

Thanks to all for your advice and insights. My purpose in posting was to solicit other ex-pats' experience with this issue and there was no intent to disparage backpackers. Most backpackers actually are much better than many of the daily/weekly rentals which we get in the building. Need I be politically incorrect in saying that most of them are mannerless, clueless Indians (from the country of India) who swim in the pool with clothes on, have noisy kids running up and down the hallway, and who cook in the unit with the unit door open, creating ubiquitous smells in the hallways. I know that several web sites have mentioned that Indian tourists are new to Bangkok, (as are the newly wealthy Chinese), and that many of them are "cheap charlies" who lack manners and proper courtesy as it relates to their fellow man. Hence, we owners are victims of the Indians' learning curve of proper manners.

[rikkie]

Thanks to all for your advice and insights. My purpose in posting was to solicit other ex-pats' experience with this issue and there was no intent to disparage backpackers. Most backpackers actually are much better than many of the daily/weekly rentals which we get in the building. Need I be politically incorrect in saying that most of them are mannerless, clueless Indians (from the country of India) who swim in the pool with clothes on, have noisy kids running up and down the hallway, and who cook in the unit with the unit door open, creating ubiquitous smells in the hallways. I know that several web sites have mentioned that Indian tourists are new to Bangkok, (as are the newly wealthy Chinese), and that many of them are "cheap charlies" who lack manners and proper courtesy as it relates to their fellow man. Hence, we owners are victims of the Indians' learning curve of proper manners.

if it is my property i do with it as i like rent it to everybody i like. you not still adapted to Asia... let it go you will feel better

[fifthcolumn]

Seems simple fix with a letter in their box.

Identify the properties on AirBnB and CouchSurfing.com - inform the corporations of your issues and that you may take legal action against them.

Review your rules as stated for broad statements about short term renting, etc. Include these along with the following in a letter written by an attorney in their mailbox.

Condo has been identified as as renting on a per-night basis (include above online print out as proof if you have it). If you are no renting short term, no worries. If you are, this condo will be reported to relevant authorites for civil, criminal and tax violations (list in bullet form along with their address so they know you have the contact and are serious).

I've nothing against backpackers or tourists, they do not belong in condo's though. I do loathe these online bed booking agents. One thing certain, these people renting to do not give a toss about you and your condo. Good luck.

[LALes]

Thanks to all for your advice and insights. My purpose in posting was to solicit other ex-pats' experience with this issue and there was no intent to disparage backpackers. Most backpackers actually are much better than many of the daily/weekly rentals which we get in the building. Need I be politically incorrect in saying that most of them are mannerless, clueless Indians (from the country of India) who swim in the pool with clothes on, have noisy kids running up and down the hallway, and who cook in the unit with the unit door open, creating ubiquitous smells in the hallways. I know that several web sites have mentioned that Indian tourists are new to Bangkok, (as are the newly wealthy Chinese), and that many of them are "cheap charlies" who lack manners and proper courtesy as it relates to their fellow man. Hence, we owners are victims of the Indians' learning curve of proper manners.

I'm pretty sure I know your building because it is my go-to destination when I go to BKK. Personally, I like the fact that I can get a modern condo for short term rental at a decent price. There is that flip side, however, where not everyone coming in is of stellar quality. I made the mistake of buying a condo in a condotel in low season many years ago. Imagine my horror when high season came around and I saw the place fill up with transients and low lifes and anybody who had 600 baht for a night. I'm screwed because my building is billed as a hotel. Your situation is different. You bought thinking it was going to be an owners building with maybe some long term renters. You have a better case than I do but there is one overriding factor we are forgetting here. THIS IS THAILAND!! Good luck trying to get anything done. Never say never but I will probably never buy again in Thailand. Complaints like this usually fall on deaf ears.

[Joe Mamma]

Like a time share that is hot bunked, major wear and tear and missing properties are byproducts.

[8OA8]

Reality is that you could be a very nice person and invite every down and out person you come across, to come and stay at your condo and they as your guests would fall into pretty much the same category as those you are complaining about.

[appwill]

I was very interested in the idea of renting out my condo when I travel out to other ASEAN countries.

This thread made me change my mind.

Thanks

[hawker9000]

I was very interested in the idea of renting out my condo when I travel out to other ASEAN countries.

This thread made me change my mind.

Thanks

Yeap. Seems like sentiments such as those expressed here can't help but devalue owner investments by limiting allowed use. As a resident owner, you have to choose between devaluation due to the alleged extra wear & tear on the common areas (& other assorted "infringements") by short-term renters, and devaluation due to reduced demand for units with limitations on allowed use. You'll have to accept one or the other. In areas which are tourist destinations, I would certainly think a relatively large percentage of owners & potential buyers would be wanting/expecting to be able to let their units. If you happen to be an existing owner, drive them away at your own risk... (And maybe expect some unhappiness from your fellow owners as you go about trying to kill any ongoing rental activity.)

[Pattaya46]

- Then there is the problem of the limitation of use of freehold property.

I won't accept anybody making rules on who is allowed to stay in my property for which duration and who is not, because this infringes on my property rights.

You wont accept? Sorry but here you will have to!

We would have to ask a lawyer for precisions, but yes there is a law that forbid the use of a condo unit as an hostel.

Not sure how short you can rent, but because of this law some condos have put in their rules that you can't rent for less than 30 days (or 15?).

Edited November 28, 2013 by Pattaya46

[HerbalEd]

Maintenance fees paid or no? If you go down this route you will make your condo worthless. Classic example is Beach Mountain in Bang Saray, units there are unsalable and cant be given away due to the management commitee running the place like Staleg 17. Leave it be and put up with a little extra footsteps.

There is middle ground here. Stipulating no daily or weekly rentals is pretty standard and far far from Staleg 17.

[appwill]

Need I be politically incorrect in saying that most of them are mannerless, clueless Indians (from the country of India) who swim in the pool with clothes on, have noisy kids running up and down the hallway, and who cook in the unit with the unit door open, creating ubiquitous smells in the hallways. I know that several web sites have mentioned that Indian tourists are new to Bangkok, (as are the newly wealthy Chinese), and that many of them are "cheap charlies" who lack manners and proper courtesy as it relates to their fellow man. Hence, we owners are victims of the Indians' learning curve of proper manners.

It was previously mentioned before, but if these "cheap charlies" are able to afford the daily rate of this condo, what does that say about the condo complex as well as the owner renting it out?

And what exactly are "proper" manners? Because if we're really going down this route, I see a lot of locals who seem to "lack" this as well. What should we do about them?

[davejones]

Maintenance fees paid or no? If you go down this route you will make your condo worthless. Classic example is Beach Mountain in Bang Saray, units there are unsalable and cant be given away due to the management commitee running the place like Staleg 17. Leave it be and put up with a little extra footsteps.

They can easily be sold. To prove it, I will buy one.

Good luck if you do. Previously it was the only affordable condo in Bang Saray but that has changed and many more in that area are due for completion. If you are only going to live there and have no intention of selling, providing you dont mind lights out at 7pm, roll call twice a day and no where to tunnel out of, it will be a bragain

it will be a bargain at the price I offer. What I was saying (in a roundabout way) is that all property is sellable. The only thing that's stops property being sold is the price being too high. Any property can be sold at some price or other. When people say they can't sell their property, what they are really saying is that no-one will pay what they want. That's completely different to not being able to sell at all. If the price is right for the buyer, then of course it will sell.

Edited November 28, 2013 by davejones