Tg Dual Citizen Problems

[moonman]

My girlfriend (never legally married in either country, just cohabiting) came to Sweden in 1997 on her Thai passport. She stayed three years and received a Swedish passport, which she used on several visists to Thailand.

Now we want to live in Thailand, but she's still here on a tourist visa in her Swedish passport. This visa costs 1900 baht to extend for one year (special extention for "previous Thai's") at Suan Phlu.

I thought that as a dual citizen she shouldn't need any visa to stay in her own country, so I brought her along on a visa run to Cambodia. She got her Swedish visa stamped out when exiting Thailand.

On the way back through Thai immigration, we ran into difficulties. The immigration officer refused to stamp her Thai passport, that hadn't been used since 1997 (just extended at embassy in Sweden, so still valid).

So now she's in Thailand, without a visa in her Swedish passport, and with exit stamps and an "exit card" still stapled in her Thai passport.

What should she do? The immigration officer suggested that she "lose" her Thai passport and apply for a new one. But she doesn't like the thought of lying to the police. They might still have records of her leaving in 1997, never to return. They might question her on how she entered the country, and if she's still legally Thai.

Apparently, the rules have changed since 1997, creating this mess.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Remember that the immigration officer who advised you to lose the passport was a police officer. I suggest that she take both passports to Suan Phlu. Hopefully she can sort it out with a senior officer. At worst, I expect that they'll give her a one year extension on the Swedish passport. I am sure that you know, but anyway, be aware that Thailand does not recognize de facto marriages.

[moonman]

We were at Suan Phlu two months ago, and they wanted 1900 baht for a visa extension. They treated her as a foreigner, with no regard to her Thai passport.

Are you saying that she really has to pay to live in her own country? That her Thai citizenship has been revoked?

[bmanly]

Interesting thread. My wife became an Australian citizen in 1994, upon getting granted that we immediately applied for her to get an Australian Passport. About that time her Thai passport needed an extension which she got at the Thai Consulate in Sydney. Ever since 1994 my wife has used the Aussie passport for entry to Thailand and the rules were applied to her as they were applied to me. Then came the massive increase in visa fees so I did some research mostly here on thaivisa.com and found that she can have dual citizenship and use both passports to travel. This way on arrival to BKK she would not need a Visa and just use her Thai passport.

She rang the Thai Consulate in Sydney and told them of her intensions. They told her no problems, bring your current ID Card, your old Thai passport, 2 passport size photos and a copy of your house book with your name stated in there. Next week we take all that down to the Sydney Consulate.

My wife made it clear that they were not giving her a hard time. In fact she was encouraged by the Consulate to do it. Because her old passport had lapsed for such a long time her application will be sent to Bangkok, she was advised it could take 6 weeks or more before the passport could be processed.

Over the years she always renewed her Thai ID when in Thailand and kept the house book in order. Does you GF still have a current Thai ID? Just remember the Thai officials are not there to give Thais a hard time, I would suggest you do as Dr. PP has adivsed as your case is a little different to ours.

[samran]

The problem is she initally entered Thailand by air on her Swedish PP.

There a couple of things you should know:

Firstly, Land immigration officials in asia HATE you swapping passports between countries. (eg Exit Cambodia, Malaysia, Laos or Burma on a Swedish PP and Enter Thailand on a Thai one overland is a HUGE no-no). They will want to see the stamp trail. I have tried to Australian to Thai passport swap and they don't like it. They will ALWAYS stamp you into Thailand using the same PP that you just exited the other country on.

Ones at airports have no probems (eg exit Sweden on Swedish and enter Thailand on a Thai).

There is a way around this and I hope it is not confusing:

Fly to HK or Singapore for the weekend (not malaysia, they don't like to recognise dual citizenship of any type).

She should EXIT Thailand on her Swedish passport (as that is what she entered on). She can enter HK or Singapore on either PP visa free (although she should only use the Swedish PP if the Thai PP is expired).

Then, fly back to Thailand, entering at BKK on her Thai passport. The immigration officials there are very used to dealing with Thai dual citizens entering and leaving and do not look for a stamp trail.

They will stamp her in on her Thai passport, placing the entry stamp next to her last exit stamp. I have gone sometimes 2-3 years without entering LOS on my Thai passport, and it has never been a problem. If her PP has expired, that is fine too. The will want to stamp you in on the old expired PP as happened to me one.

Now she is in Thailand, she should apply for a new PP.

[moonman]

She should EXIT Thailand on her Swedish passport (as that is what she entered on).

Well, no.

She entered LOS on her Thai ID card. The border guards in Surin refused to stamp her Thai passport, but they had no problem letting her enter without passport.

As I said, she doesn't have a Swedish visa. So if she tried to exit on Swedish PP they will probably treat her as an illegal alien.

The Thai passport seems better for exit, as she couldn't possibly be an illegal alien if she's Thai citizen. But we don't know what will happen when they see that she already has an exit card in the passport.

Will they give her two exit cards?

Will they remove the old exit card and give her a new one?

Will they make a fuss, telling her to go visit the passport office, missing her flight?

The whole purpose of the exercise is to avoid a 1900 baht Swedish visa extension. So any solution that costs more in flight tickets or lawyers fees is out of the question.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

She should EXIT Thailand on her Swedish passport (as that is what she entered on).

Well, no.

She entered LOS on her Thai ID card. The border guards in Surin refused to stamp her Thai passport, but they had no problem letting her enter without passport.

As I said, she doesn't have a Swedish visa. So if she tried to exit on Swedish PP they will probably treat her as an illegal alien.

The Thai passport seems better for exit, as she couldn't possibly be an illegal alien if she's Thai citizen. But we don't know what will happen when they see that she already has an exit card in the passport.

Will they give her two exit cards?

Will they remove the old exit card and give her a new one?

Will they make a fuss, telling her to go visit the passport office, missing her flight?

The whole purpose of the exercise is to avoid a 1900 baht Swedish visa extension. So any solution that costs more in flight tickets or lawyers fees is out of the question.

You were told to go to Immigration and sort it out. But your incredible fear of spending 1900 baht is a stopper. Trust me, keep going it will cost you far more. She arrived in Thailand as an alien, and let me guess, the Thai visa was a bit too expensive. <_<

[samran]

The whole purpose of the exercise is to avoid a 1900 baht Swedish visa extension. So any solution that costs more in flight tickets or lawyers fees is out of the question.

Mate,

Go to immigration and sort it out. Explain the situation nicely (smiling nicely while acting dumb and confused usually works for me when talking with government officials).

My guess is they will do one of 2 things, they could possible stamp her in at Suan Plu, either on the Thai or Swedish PP, depending on what the rules say.

If she is considered as an alien at that stage, then at least, spending 15K on a nice trip to Honkers for the weekend to do some "chop-bing" will keep you in the good books with dear sweet GF. But a couple of nights at the Suan Phlu Sofitel will sure as heck will not do your relationship any favours. And nothing is worse that a mad Thai woman who will hold a grudge for years to come.

[moonman]

You were told to go to Immigration and sort it out. But your incredible fear of spending 1900 baht is a stopper.

Told by whom?

It's not the money. It's the principle of paying for the privilege of staying in your own country.

Would you gladly pay what amounts to two weeks salary every year for the right to stay in your country?

And it's the hassle of going all the way to Bangkok for a piece of paper, 14 hours on the bus. She's pregnant and would rather stay home.

And it's the lack of respect Suan Phlu shows Thai women. They tell her that she has to fill in the forms in English, even though they know she doesn't write English. They laugh at her when she fails, hinting that she has no business traveling on a Farang passport if she doesn't handle Farang language.

I believe that Immigration is the wrong authority to deal with here. They are totally clueless when it comes to Thai citizens. They seem to have no authority to even look at a Thai passport, let alone stamp one.

The only thing that could possibly come out of Suan Phlu is that they charge their fee, telling her to come back next year to pay again. She would be doing that for the rest of her life, possibly 50 years more. A 1900 baht fee times 50 is quite a bit money, and she would also need to keep her Swedish passport current even if she would never go to Sweden again.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

You were told to go to Immigration and sort it out. But your incredible fear of spending 1900 baht is a stopper.

Told by whom?

It's not the money. It's the principle of paying for the privilege of staying in your own country.

Would you gladly pay what amounts to two weeks salary every year for the right to stay in your country?

And it's the hassle of going all the way to Bangkok for a piece of paper, 14 hours on the bus. She's pregnant and would rather stay home.

And it's the lack of respect Suan Phlu shows Thai women. They tell her that she has to fill in the forms in English, even though they know she doesn't write English. They laugh at her when she fails, hinting that she has no business traveling on a Farang passport if she doesn't handle Farang language.

I believe that Immigration is the wrong authority to deal with here. They are totally clueless when it comes to Thai citizens. They seem to have no authority to even look at a Thai passport, let alone stamp one.

The only thing that could possibly come out of Suan Phlu is that they charge their fee, telling her to come back next year to pay again. She would be doing that for the rest of her life, possibly 50 years more. A 1900 baht fee times 50 is quite a bit money, and she would also need to keep her Swedish passport current even if she would never go to Sweden again.

She arrived on a FOREIGN PASSPORT as an ALIEN. There must be an Immigration office near you. On arrival she could have got a one year stay as a Thai returning. Play it right, she still could get a one year extension on the Swedish passport. It will cost 1900 baht still.

[adjan jb]

When she came back to Thailand (which is still Her country) why did she use her Swedish PP in the first place ? Snobbery ?

[adjan jb]

My son has dual citizenship: he exits Thailand on his THAI PP and enters Thailand on his THAI PP too. Never experienced a problem.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

My son has dual citizenship: he exits Thailand on his THAI PP and enters Thailand on his THAI PP too. Never experienced a problem.

At airports it seems to be accepted while land crossing points refuse to accept the situation.

[moonman]

She arrived on a FOREIGN PASSPORT as an ALIEN.

She did show her Thai passport at Don Muang. But they told her that she couldn't change nationality in flight, and she would have to show the same passport that she had left Sweden on.

I know this is BS and I would have complained if I had been there, but I wasn't.

She's just an uneducated rice farmer. She's not used to deal with authorities. If a police officer tells her what to do, then she will never argue with him. Even if she had known for a fact that the law was on her side, she wouldn't even dream of saying so. Thai's don't think like us. They don't understand the concept of "see you in court".

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Go to your nearest Immigration office ( jai yen ) . It'll work out.

[adjan jb]

My son has dual citizenship: he exits Thailand on his THAI PP and enters Thailand on his THAI PP too. Never experienced a problem.

At airports it seems to be accepted while land crossing points refuse to accept the situation.

Some misunderstanding there. My point is: In Thailand, use ONLY your Thai PP whenever you leave or arrive and there won't be any trouble. Never let them know that you carry another PP (unless it's vital). Moonman's GF made a mistake when she came back in her OWN country as a FOREIGNER (Snobbery ?).

[samran]

I second adrians comment. Never show the foreign passport when you enter and leave Thailand. It just confuses the issue. Never volunteer the info, and they never ask anyway. The only people you have to show both passports to are airline check in.

My Thai PP has at last count 30 pairs of entry and exit stamps, and about 3 entry and exits to other neighbouring countries...for when I travelled overland. Never once has someone asked me why my passport lacks a balance of foreign stamps. For everywhere else I use an Aussie PP.

Like your GF, I was caught out once coming from Malaysia to Thailand overland on my Aussie PP. Was not allowed to switch PP's at Pedang Besar. Flew out a couple of days later and returned on my Thai PP. Sorted.

As for bring up the topic of "principal"....you are in Thailand. Fix your problem first and then go save the bloody world.

[goofy]

Take her passport and burn it, go to chaeng wattana and apply for a new one when its time to leave thailand.

Dont waste time with suan plu only incompetent staff and gready and they do enjoy to ###### around with poor people.

She is thai with an id card and a house paper no plobblemm

hasta manana

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Take her passport and burn it, go to chaeng wattana and apply for a new one when its time to leave thailand.

Dont waste time with suan plu only incompetent staff and gready and they do enjoy to ###### around with poor people.

She is thai with an id card and a house paper no plobblemm

hasta manana

That sounds like a classic good idea ...provided she doesn't want to use the Swedish passport around Asia again. It will be in overstay in HER name

[moonman]

That sounds like a classic good idea ...provided she doesn't want to use the Swedish passport around Asia again. It will be in overstay in HER name 

Dear Dr.,

Do you actually know dual citizenship legislation?

Do you know for a fact that a dual citizen needs a visa in Thailand, and would be in overstay without a visa?

Lots of people on this thread are saying otherwise. No visa is necessary. Just show the right passport at the right place and she should be fine (not fined).

Goofy's suggestion is exactly what we were told at the Surin border. We are just a little reluctant to burn government property, but we might try it behind the house.

[adjan jb]

Do you know for a fact that a dual citizen needs a visa in Thailand, and would be in overstay without a visa?

My son, a dual citizen (Thai/French) doesn't need any visa. Neither in Thailand (he's Thai), nor in France (he's French).

[dr_Pat_Pong]

That sounds like a classic good idea ...provided she doesn't want to use the Swedish passport around Asia again. It will be in overstay in HER name  

Dear Dr.,

Do you actually know dual citizenship legislation?

Do you know for a fact that a dual citizen needs a visa in Thailand, and would be in overstay without a visa?

Lots of people on this thread are saying otherwise. No visa is necessary. Just show the right passport at the right place and she should be fine (not fined).

Goofy's suggestion is exactly what we were told at the Surin border. We are just a little reluctant to burn government property, but we might try it behind the house.

And how will you handle the overstay on the Swedish passport. She IS Swedish as far as her arrival went. IF she had been properly advised she could have paid 1900 baht and got an extension of one year on arrival. And yes I do know about duality of citizenship. Get off the computer and into Immigration before this thing gets out of hand.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Do you know for a fact that a dual citizen needs a visa in Thailand, and would be in overstay without a visa?

My son, a dual citizen (Thai/French) doesn't need any visa. Neither in Thailand (he's Thai), nor in France (he's French).

Ahhh Adjan....but the difference here is the lady wanted to use the Swedish passport to arrive in Thailand, and had no knowledge of the situation whereby she could have got a one year visa extension on arrival at Bangkok Airport. Therein lies the complication. Losing the Thai passport has no bearing on any accruing overstay on the Swedish passport.

[samran]

no offence, but sounds like lady wanted to show off the fact that she has a western passport and didn't think of the consequences. A bit like wearing lots of gold and flashing money. Its a status thing and a very Thai thing to do.

one of the main points of citizenship law is that you DONT need a visa to come into your country of citizenship and can stay without restriction. However, this doesn't extend to using a foreign PP to enter your own country. If you do this, you will be treated as a foreigner. Immigration cannot stamp you in indefinetly, without restriction unless you are stamped in on your Thai passport.

While Thai law (as far as I am aware) does not require a thai citizen to enter on a thai PP, common sense dictates that you do if you want "leave to enter without restriction". Other countries such as the US and Australia do require by law all their citizens enter only on their respective national passport and are refused any type of visa status if they enter on a foreign passport (ie they wont let them in unless they show their national PP).

So in a nutshell, Thailand DOES require a Thai dual citizen to adhere to visa regulations if that person decides to enter on the non Thai passport. Futhermore, they are subject to all provisions and penalties contained in those regulations....including possible detention for overstay.

[wolf5370]

Totally agree Dr.

Either go to immigration, or fly out on the Sweedish PP and back on the Thai PP. Wifey uses British PP everywhere except LOS - there she uses Thai PP (saves queueing at least). That way she'll be in LOS as a citizen. Land exit, show the Thai PP in and out - proabably be cheaper for the entry into neighbour too.

[adjan jb]

no offence, but sounds like lady wanted to show off the fact that she has a western passport and didn't think of the consequences. A bit like wearing lots of gold and flashing money. Its a status thing and a very Thai thing to do.

Exactly what I've already said : snobbery.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

no offence, but sounds like lady wanted to show off the fact that she has a western passport and didn't think of the consequences. A bit like wearing lots of gold and flashing money. Its a status thing and a very Thai thing to do.

Exactly what I've already said : snobbery.

Samran's excellent contribution also says it as it is....and Samran is half Aussie and half Thai ( he never shared which half was which ) If the lady presented a valid Thai passport on entry, or got a one year extended visa on the Swedish passport at the airport on arrival, there would have been no trouble.

[goofy]

hey read these clips

So now she's in Thailand, without a visa in her Swedish passport, and with exit stamps and an "exit card" still stapled in her Thai passport.

She entered LOS on her Thai ID card. The border guards in Surin refused to stamp her Thai passport, but they had no problem letting her enter without passport.

As I said, she doesn't have a Swedish visa. So if she tried to exit on Swedish PP they will probably treat her as an illegal alien.

hey hey hey hey

she entered thai on her id card as so many do in kap choeng doing a bit of gambling in the casino

wich means she is not here on the swedish passport!!!!!!

no plobbllleemmm just los the pp and smile and get a new when its time to have one, it takes about 1 hour in the pp office in bkk and then they send it to you by ems an extra charge of 35 bht can you take that or should we start an collect to get her a new pp.... just a bit ironic.

hade gott o simma lugnt i issan

[samran]

goofy, (sorry, I am going to be long winded as usual)

you have cut to the chase quite well. She did indeed enter on only the Thai ID card. Normally, this is usually done in conjunction with a border pass, which then is processed through the system. Therefore on the immigration data base, you are counted on the way out and then back in to LOS. Doesn't sound like the girl had a Border pass.

Now, many people do cross to the casinos flashing their ID cards (and without the border pass) and bypassing Cambodian immigration totally. Once of my friends does this quite often on her casino tours.

While technically this is illegal, going OUT and IN using this method at least doesn't show up as a "movement" on the immigration database, as the info is never entered in the first place. Technically, the person hasn't left Thailand.

Problem here is that the blokes GF is still counted as being OUT of the country on the thai immigration database . She was never stamped as coming back in.

Two things here: Firstly, it is required by law that all persons, enter and leave Thailand through a recognised international port or land border point. Not doing so has penalties. Questions will be asked how she re-entered the country without any record from an official border post.

Secondly, this leads to a discrepancy with the records and may have an impact on the issuing of a replacement passport, the logic being, the DB will say that this person is still out of LOS, but applying for a PP while in Thailand. Questions will be asked at application time. If it doesn't happen there, it could happen at the airport when she leaves LOS next.

Why am I concerned that this girl can't just "lose" and get a new Thai PP you may be wondering? Cause I think a red flag will be raised when she tries to apply for a new one or leave the country next.

Once, when returning to LOS after a couple of years abroad, I tried using my new replacement Thai PP which I had got in Canberra. My old one was 2 years expired. At immigration I presented the new PP, and was held up as the offical explained that he couldn't process my new PP (there was no exit stamp in it).

Luckily, I still had my old one with me, which he entered into the system, showing that I left LOS on the old PP. I was then stamped in on my OLD Thai PP, and told to use my new one when I left the country next time, which I did. Just goes to show that they do have internal systems in place, to maitain border security.

My advice, head down to immigration and sort it out.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hi Samran. ANU OK ? I think Mr Goofy is not too big on listening to advice, and your advice was sound. They'll be in deep doo doo uless they go visit Immigration. We tried