Suthep: No reform, no election

[newcomer71]

Nida... a very impartial source, I'd say!

Try this newcomer :

MORE LIES FROM INTERNATIONAL NEW YORK TIMES

Yawn... I am not interested to read about Thaksin. I am against Thaksin.

I want the crooks like Thaksin and Suthep far from the power in Thailand.

Suthep promised to go out of politics and all his peoples government get a 5 year politics ban after finish their job for 14 month to ensure there is no self serving idea.

Oh my gosh... you are free to believe that. But I see that like a story, like many stories he made in the past, and the ways he avoided prosecution.

So, I don't give him a hint of trust, especially reading his daily rants.

[Local Drunk]

There you idiots go talking about the 'democratically elected' darlings again. Who then proceeded to break laws, piss on the constitution and they couldn't give a rats ass about 'democracy' - until the protestors, now they are hiding behind 'democracy' and the constitution just to try and make it to the 180 day mark and ram through the fugutive's amnesty. Let's have some truth here and less of the bullshit rhetoric, please !

Maybe if you would avoid to insult other posters, someone could go on to read your posts.

But oh well, insult whoever has a different idea from you, classifies you well.

@ newcomer. One could extrapolate from your post that you're satisfied with the former government although you've failed to address how you and tingtonteedood differ in that respect. "Classifies you well" tells me nothing as does the rhetoric in his post which I don't see pointed squarely at you.

Lets try to address the issues . There are many here on the forum who aren't so polarized as the two of you.

I was referring to "idiot" given for free to anyone who has a different idea from him.

I am not polarized and extremist at all, given I wish to see disappear both the Shin clan and Super Suthep.

Perhaps the best policy in such posts as this is to not answer them at all. He said "idiot" in his rant but I didn't feel in anyway insulted because I'm not an idiot and I doubt you are either.

Cheers. LD

[SouthernMan3]

Goodnight to all.

And my best wishes to all colors.

May we all live in peace and harmony for eternity.

[metisdead]

Posts in violation of fair use policy has been removed. It is generally accepted, but not written into law, that quoting the first two or three sentences of an article and giving a link to the source is considered “fair use” and not a violation of copyright.

Another post removed.

[ikke]

Suthep is considered to be a "nutter" by many. Maybe, or is he a well planned move for needed changes. BUT SO WHAT. If he succeeds in removing the root causes of Thailand's political problems. Perhaps he is more the sacrificial lamb offered by the dems to take the heat and offer seperation. Few expect that he will have any political future. I believe he stated that it time to go to Samui and relax when this is over. I hope he gets to enjoy his retirement in the near future.

Suthep will have performed a great service if he is successful in removing the Shins and family from power because the current government is beyond broken. Most anything is better than the current Shin mess. Well, not if it is North Korea or Iran style.

Are you family of this disgusting man ?

[ikke]

Nida... a very impartial source, I'd say!

Try this newcomer :

MORE LIES FROM INTERNATIONAL NEW YORK TIMES

Yawn... I am not interested to read about Thaksin. I am against Thaksin.

I want the crooks like Thaksin and Suthep far from the power in Thailand.

Suthep promised to go out of politics and all his peoples government get a 5 year politics ban after finish their job for 14 month to ensure there is no self serving idea.

"Idea", that's it !

[Khonper]

"We're willing to wait on their (the Top Brass's) decision". That's awfully reasonable of him, isn't it?

it's gonna be a looooong wait for him if he didn't got the message.

[ikke]

So, instead of calling Suthep names he doesn't deserve, let's think of how we, as individuals, can help to create a situation, where elections can't be rigged. For the Thais on this board, it could mean to support the Election Commission of groups with similar aims, for the Foreigners it could mean to create understanding "at home" about the situation and the problems here in Thailand.

Can we agree on that?

With respect, when he says we don't need a parliamentary democracy, we need an appointed group of leaders that he Suthep approves of, he is talking about tyranny. Also he has escalated a peaceful massprotest into a an occupy-and-overthrow movement and people have died as a result. Not to mention the harm to the economy and Thailand's image his actions this last month have had.

Solution is to keep Parliamentary Democracy, it doesn't matter who wins the most votes, if you have a new stronger regulation of Parliament so that issues must be debated and can't be steamrollered through while the PM is in Timbuktu or somewhere. We need a very strong system in Parliament, to balance out the loose-fit casual systems that make the rest of the national apparatus so corroded and self-obsoleting.

But those processes begin and end in Parliament, with all elected members, not just the party who got the most votes. Suthep is proposing a new system which is more like autocracy, it is completely regressive and doesn't belong in the 21st Century.

Sorry Yunla, it looks like you're missing my point.

Maybe your hatred of Suthep stand in the way of reading what I really wrote.

First he didn't hijack a mass protest, he brought several protesting groups together. Next he didn't say anywhere, that he will decide on the make-up of any leadership group and people did NOT die because of his involvement. That was red shirts against Ramkhamhaeng students fighting, some 15 or 20 clicks away from Suthep. And likely some black shirts involvement.

I'm not against parliamentary democracy, just the opposite. But I refuse to accept labeling something as a parliamentary democracy, if it isn't such a thing. A parliament for the sake of having one is useless. It must serve the people it is supposed to serve and who elected it. Or what do you think? And elections must be fair and equal to all involved and then some more,- you can read it up in Wikipedia I guess.

Strange: Most foreigners, that are opposed to the current demonstrators here are all for the demonstrators in the Ukraine...

Sam

Where you get that from ? most foreigners, are you representing them ?

If I read your posts, your quite sure Suthep is the leader Thai people need.... sounds same as back in Germany in the pre war time .

[62strat]

It seems we only ever see fragments of the picture in Thai polictics . I haven't seen anything in Suthep's more recent life, in his rants and obvious intolerance to any dissagreement that would allow me to believe he has the best interests of the Thai people at heart. I'm sure he has many supporters here that must feel he is being honest and forthright is his sudden urgentcy to reform Thai politics for the benefit of all, but is it not strange he did so little about this when we was in power ? In 2 days he will declare victory, than another and another..won't that be the same when he tries to purify the goverment and reeducate the masses.. just a few more years and he will complete the job... Is this what his supporters want ? This man to be handed the power to mold the goverment in his own image ?

[Prbkk]

FangFerang

Posted Today, 17:18

Thai Mein Kampf! I have great respect for Suthep--only He sees the way forward, and only He can lead Thais to a better peace. Of course we have to stop Democracy for awhile, until His good people can see a way to make the elections more...reasonable. Only Suthep has this great vision and even though Thais accepted His views at first, and are now reconsidering, that does not matter. It does not matter if His own people have doubts! They are sheep, and He is the sacred Shepherd. Let them know His love, and deep felt devotion, and care.

Suthep is the leader of all good things! Hail Suthep!

Sieg Heil!!

He is a new religion, praise God and the Lord Buddha!!

___________________________________________________________________________

Suthep: No reform, no election

Jawohl mein commandant

He reminds me of 2 people.

These two posts are not the least helpful...

Better to let us know, what YOU (both) think how to solve not only the present situation but also how to make the country more democratic, more equal for all and more appealing to all living here...

Sam

Trust me, I know what's best, I love all Thais! we will get good people! democracy is not important, foreigners are not important, I will accept the will of the people...on Monday, Tuesday, it will be over by November 29th, December 13th, soon, later, sooner or later, sometime, I will accept the decision of the military...they have asked me for a meeting....I have asked them for a meeting....there will be a public meeting with the military and I will be there! back to " up to top brass" . I will turn myself in if I fail. Watch me during the rally in case the police come down from helicopters to snatch me away. DELUSIONAL.

Meanwhile this fruit-loop will destroy what's left of a fragile economy. Thais have run a mile from him, leaving a tiny and ever diminishing rump of fanatics.

Anyone with origins in Munich would know this is not the real deal, just a pale pink copy wannabe. Thoroughly unpleasant but not Hitler. Hate Thaksin they might, but Thais are not going to be fooled by this angry little man.

[SamMunich]

ikke wrote:

If I read your posts, you're quite sure Suthep is the leader Thai people need.... sounds same as back in Germany in the pre war time .

__________________________________________________________________________

No I wrote previously, that Suthep is not necessarily the leader Thailand needs, but he is the one, who got the different groups opposing the govt together some 6 or so weeks ago. And kept them together and united for most of the time. Who else was there to do that, if he wouldn't have been there? The students leader, or who?

And no, that is in no way "same, same" as in pre-war Germany. It reads more like you're barking up the wrong tree. Did you, btw read the original post by me? Your remark suggests the opposite. And if you want to discuss pre-war Germany, your free to do that, but not here nor under this topic.

Good night,

Sam M.

P.S. This is not on topic, but.. it makes reading difficult, if you all quote complete posts of posts of posts... Why not extract the important stuff and then quote only that. Saves a lot of space... and time reading.

Edited December 15, 2013 by SamMunich

[SamMunich]

PRBKK wrote:

Trust me, I know what's best, I love all Thais! we will get good people! ....
Anyone with origins in Munich would know this is not the real deal, just a pale pink copy wannabe. Thoroughly unpleasant but not Hitler. Hate Thaksin they might, but Thais are not going to be fooled by this angry little man.

_________________________________________

Sorry, I have read more intelligent posts by you, and posts, that don't sound so desperate.

And quite frankly, I don't know who brought up Hitler in this topic? I would not compare any of the head honchos with Adolf.

I would maybe compare Taksin with Berlusconi, but then again, I would have to look carefully first, if that comparison will fit...

Sam M.

[blaze]

Why is this not like interwar Europe?

A suspicion that democracy (relatively new in most of Central and South Europe) was vulnerable to corruption- that the economy, due in part to international circumstances (ie, the Great Depression) was slowing down- that corruption was rampant (which it was a)- that 'modern' selfishness had destroyed the pure essence of the national soul?

I think that at least, the situation here would benefit from some context.

and when Suthep demanded a solution that was almost cookie cutter copy of Mussolini--- The "People's Council'/ the Grande Council (study their mandate, their constiuents)--maybe this is a time to look at what is happening in thailand in a broader historical context.

Hitler did not make the Nazi Germany- the disenchantment with 'the system' made it.

Had there been no Hitler- another firebrand would have been publicly annointed- and had there been no Thaksin (especially now with comm,unication so available)-- well you could have Thida- and if THailand is not careful - you will.

Edited December 15, 2013 by blaze

[SamMunich]

Why is this not like interwar Europe?

A suspicion that democracy was vulnerable to corruption- that the economy, due in part to international circumstances (ie, the Great Depression) was slowing down- that corruption was rampant (which it was at all levels of society)- that 'modern' selfishness had destroyed the pure essence of the national soul?

I think that at least, the situation here would benefit from some context.

Unless you really think that Thais are exempt from the historic forces that create events.

Sorry Khun Blaze, but there is no comparable situation here or then there.

There was corruption between the wars, but that was of no political (!!!) concern. It was about increasing or keeping the empires and colonies (which started before WW I) and about the fight of the wealthy against the rising tide of communist parties influence, especially after the WW I. Adolf and troops was seen as a pawn by the political arm of the wealthy, but he didn't stop at being a pawn. He was underestimated by all but the communists.

Here corruption is one of if not THE main issue, the class war has not yet started here, even if some had hoped for (weird enough many of the former CPT folks ended up on Taksin's side). Without corruption we would have a much more solid and democratical system in Thailand...

And now definitely Good Night!

Sam M.

[NCFC]

'faux democracy' ? 'root causes of the current crisis' ? We're so privileged to have self-righteous colonials explain Thai politics to the rest of the unwashed on this forum.

You and your pithy group of like-minded posters have such tunnel vision about your hatred for the Shin clan, you can't see anything else. You're willing to embrace the devil because you're too arrogant to consider anything else.

It's time to get more acquainted with your allies:

"behind Thailand’s fiery anti-government protest leader, Suthep Thaugsuban, are two powerful retired generals with palace connections, a deep rivalry with the Shinawatra family and an ability to influence Thailand’s coup-prone armed forces." http://www.chiangraitimes.com/news/20951.html

Your link was an interesting lead. But I wonder whether the military consider that a coup may not be so successful as in the past? A lot has changed since 2006. The north ad north-east is not so poor as it was once. Previously when people are concentrated on mere survival that was all that mattered. But the Issan region has benefitted from an economic upswing in the past half-dozen years and people are thinking more about quality of life rather than mere survival. They are thinking more about their place in the big scheme of things, and above all they are much more politicized than previous generations of people from that part of the world. In a phrase, the genie is out of the bottle.

Another point is that there cannot be many communities that did not have at least one member who was either killed or wounded in the troubles of 2010. Most people will know of someone who who either carries a wound or has paid with their lives during that tragic period.

So I think that these people will not stand idly by if the army attempts to carry out another coup. And the troubles will not take place in the centre of Bangkok but will be seen right across the north and issan regions. The battle will take place on home soil which gives the reds/udd an advantage. Now the army is well equipped to take on a protest settlement of a few thousand in the centre of the capital city but I doubt if they have the resources to handle a conflicright across the northern regions.

In 2010 they could call on elite troops with allegiances to Bangkok-based interests. In 2014 they would have to rely on conscripted soldiers, many of whom are from the poor north and north-east. Could they army expect the squaddie to fire on his own people? Suppose Suthep was to pull a stunt such as removing the right to vote for people without university degrees, as an example, thereby disenfranchising most of the people of these regions, I feel the people are no politicized to an extent that they would fight back to defend their rights. It's a battle the army could lose.

[geriatrickid]

One of the more interesting points about Suthep is that despite all his years as a top dog in the Dems, he would appear to be now saying that the Democrats are equally corrupt and useless and not fit to govern the Country (a sentiment that I would totally agree with!). Why else would he be calling for his "Peoples' Council" and not for all good men to roll their sleeves up and work for a Dem victory in the polls?

I wonder what little Mark feels about that? Anyone heard a squeek from the Dems recently? Apart from their floundering about like a fish out of water deciding whether to boycot the election, or not as the case may be.

The Dems probably don't think anything about it... Considering that you are probably the only person in Thailand that managed to interpret the OP as saying the Democrats are equally corrupt and useless and not fit to govern the Country.

But then again. they would have to be Thaksin loving, corruption promoting, nazis to even come anywhere near the bias reading skills that some farang have.

Jutaporn may have read it like you.

On the contrary, the observation was well founded. Let's have a look at Khun Suthep's power base and what his role in the Democrat party was;

1. He was one of the most influential power brokers who organized the South and raised funds for the Democrat party.

2. He was the key man when it came to delivering at the ballot box in the south. How he did it and how he organized the support has been well discussed on the forums.

3. He was a man that amassed a sizeable fortune while paid the modest salary of a senior politician working on behalf of the Democrat party. I won't speculate on how he did it, but I don't think he won the lottery.

4. In his cabinet position he was privy to many of the funding. I believe he had a say in who was awarded contracts.

In plain language, the Democrat party owed a great deal of their success to Khun Suthep's influence, skills, connections and position. He was and still is a powerful political force who can rally his southern supporters. Without him, the former PM Abhisit and his party would not have obtained the results they achieved in the south.

On the day that Khun Suthep decides to practice what he preaches and reveals some of the hidden workings of the Democrat party, IMO people will see that the Democrats are guilty of many of the inappropriate acts that they claim of the PTP. The key difference being that the Democrats aligned themselves with the military juntas over decades. IMO the former PM Abhisit and his entourage are concerned by Khun Suthep and the possibility that he may lash out at his former colleagues. Khun Suthep presents an imminent threat to the Democrat party because now he shows the mindset of many in the party. I do not think he is alone in his political views and the more he continues, the more precarious the position of the Democrat party is. Khun Suthep helped build that current party structure and he was instrumental in establishing its political platform. He is neither stupid, nor mentally ill. The views he holds regarding a non elected council are genuine and sincere. It may come as a shock to some who can't believe that this is how some in the Democrat party think, but it's there in all its repugnant glory.

And now, perhaps you can understand why a real alternative to the Thaksin political force is so difficult to mount. Legitimate alternatives, people with integrity and who really do want reform and an alternative way forward, are blocked from doing so because of the Democrat party's structure and components. Khun Suthep may not represent the majority, but he has his support and these are the people who will have grown frustrated by their perception that former PM Abhisit is weak and unwilling to fight it out with the PTP.

[geriatrickid]

In respect to the talk of coups, the threat is less likely than in past decade. One need only look at what happened during the Redshirt protests in Bangkok as general troops, their NCOs and officers hesitated. It was only after units primarily comprised of southerners were brought in that the military was able to take decisive action.

The change came when Thaksin was elected. He made sure that people from regions where his political support was strongest, were given opportunities to advance. Over the past decade, there has been a distinct shift in the demographics of the NCO and officer ranks. There may well very well be an attempt at a coup, but I anticipate it would be followed by a counter coup mounted by the mid level officers and NCOs who are still loyal to the current government. Generals can give their orders from the back of their Mercedes, but it's the colonel from Chiang Mai and his NCO from Ubon who would have to carry out the orders, and they may be unwilling to do so.

[pomchop]

This rambling idiot and his supporters are reminding me that Taksin was once actually a pretty good PM who got greedy and stepped on the toes of some wealthy well connected people in Bangkok and they then used their connections to form a coup and have the military oust him in the dark of night while he was out of town.....how does anyone really know what influence this same connected group may have had on the courts that then found him "gullty"? Taksin has always maintained that his convictions were all politically motivated and I suspect there is a good bit of truth there.

Not saying that Taksin did "no wrong" but all but the most rabid Taksin haters who look at the economic numbers would have to agree that Taksin also did some things right.

Seems the very people who accused Taksin of being a type of dictator now want to install themselves as a new dictator...the only real difference is that they don't even want to bother with having an election to let the Thai people have a voice....they just want to shove their "good people" into power and line up at the trough.

Edited December 15, 2013 by metisdead
Large font reset to normal.

[waza]

This rambling idiot and his supporters are reminding me that Taksin was once actually a pretty good PM who got greedy and stepped on the toes of some wealthy well connected people in Bangkok and they then used their connections to form a coup and have the military oust him in the dark of night while he was out of town.....how does anyone really know what influence this same connected group may have had on the courts that then found him "gullty"? Taksin has always maintained that his convictions were all politically motivated and I suspect there is a good bit of truth there.

Not saying that Taksin did "no wrong" but all but the most rabid Taksin haters who look at the economic numbers would have to agree that Taksin also did some things right.

Seems the very people who accused Taksin of being a type of dictator now want to install themselves as a new dictator...the only real difference is that they don't even want to bother with having an election to let the Thai people have a voice....they just want to shove their "good people" into power and line up at the trough.

I am looking at the economic number now and fail to see where, "Taksin also did some things right". If you consider a convicted criminal that has committed crimes against humanity, corruption on an industrial scale, mass nepotism and conducts his politics in an illegal, unconstitutional and immoral manner is, "actually a pretty good PM ", then you have something seriously wrong with you.

Edited December 15, 2013 by metisdead

[brit1984]

^ agree thaksin was / is quite awful - i think pomchop's point was that the recent actions of the opposition (suthep) are actually making a lot of people forget the obvious shortcomings of thaksin (and his sister) through fear that there will be a coup followed by an inevitable backlash (with much bloodshed) in 2014 - and that the motivation is not about suthep stopping corruption / cheating (the irony of this objective is now clear) - rather this is about suthep's ego and about him getting his turn at the big trough (without much regard for the obvious and terrible consequences)

[pookiki]

Simplistic response without addressing most of my points..

It is senseless to blame any current individual on history so it's an irrelevant question. My ideals are also irrelevant but if you mean my opinion then 'pie in the sky' (why?) is no worse than 'do nothing' and continuing with a failed system is far more naive than any suggestions for changes.

The current faux democracy has been manipulated by the Shin clan to gain power and that is certainly one of the root causes of the current crisis. If you think allowing (paying) people to vote constitutes a democratic election then welcome to Zimbabwe.

Have you any ideas that might contribute other than knocking others?

OK, I will address your points. On what do you assert that Thailand is a faux democracy other than your opinion? It is easy enough to say and well, 'we all know that'. But the bottom line is that it is an empty assertion without facts. And, I assume, where there are facts, the person or persons involved in the vote-buying were removed from office. On last count, 40 democracies were saying that 'elections' were the proper solution to Thailand's problems. Maybe even one of the democracies you are from. But I am just a shallow-thinker by your standards, right? Mr. No-knock.

If you bothered to read my initial post you would see that I made some arguments. Here are some more.

No democracy can exist without the rule of law. This country has laws, almost all of which are ignored by all sectors of society. Corruption is endemic - Thailand has fallen badly in the latest transparency international table. Vote buying is corruption and makes a mockery of the election - most money wins!

Against the wishes of relatives of innocents killed in 2010, some of the red shirts and even numerous PTP supporters, they tried to provide an amnesty to their leader as well as up to 25,000 being investigated for corruption by the NACC. PTP also rejected a court decision that went against them. Ordinary Thais are prosecuted for even questioning a court's decision - it is illegal - but not for PTP of course.

No established democracy would countenance a convicted criminal running the government from offshore. Nepotism is another nail in democracy's coffin here.

Yes, all that contains a mix of facts & opinion.

Now where are your facts?

Khunken,

I will offer my 'opinion'. I don't think you give the Thai electorate the credit they deserve. I will assert until proven wrong, that most people who take money from any established party in connection with vote buying are already predisposed for voting for that party already. If they aren't predisposed, I think they have sufficient intelligence to still vote for the person of their choice. Since neither one of us knows what a person actually does in the voting booth and what motivates them, it is a matter of conjecture. By the way, you didn't answer my question about the forty some existing democracies in the world who say that elections in Thailand are the best way out of this impasse. Are you from one of them? Are the leaders of the 'free' world so ill-informed that their opinions about democracy should be dismissed out of hand?

[shrimpythailand]

One of the more interesting points about Suthep is that despite all his years as a top dog in the Dems, he would appear to be now saying that the Democrats are equally corrupt and useless and not fit to govern the Country (a sentiment that I would totally agree with!). Why else would he be calling for his "Peoples' Council" and not for all good men to roll their sleeves up and work for a Dem victory in the polls?

I wonder what little Mark feels about that? Anyone heard a squeek from the Dems recently? Apart from their floundering about like a fish out of water deciding whether to boycot the election, or not as the case may be.

good point - new election - get in there and get the votes going.... this "people's council" Suthep wants seems like pie in the sky if you have a country that does have "real elections"....but maybe he is right that reforms have to come before an election... that being said.... Yingluck and the reds may get voted back in with all the wishy washy Dems not doing much... and the rice scheme AND the new car scheme may actually end up bankrupting Thailand and I think they still have to borrow the 350 billion for the water/flood program? Suthep got his election call... now he seems to want to hamstring the whole country up.... oh well we will see...all in all the Dems were a little more fiscally responsible... and the rice and new car schemes are totally for the popular vote... but in the 3-4-5 billion dollar in debt range for the government... but it gets the votes...just who is going to pay for it all? I know I help - my paycheck stays here in thailand and helps out... 5 5 5 but cannot vote...

[yellow1red1]

democrazy can't be reformed. it's a failed experiment in history and in the whole world. now, transformation is possible; to brand new political architecture. yes, it is. Siam is the best suited for it, too. There are Letters from 1935 that can be followed that would lead to a Dusit Thani.

[rijb]

'faux democracy' ? 'root causes of the current crisis' ? We're so privileged to have self-righteous colonials explain Thai politics to the rest of the unwashed on this forum.

You and your pithy group of like-minded posters have such tunnel vision about your hatred for the Shin clan, you can't see anything else. You're willing to embrace the devil because you're too arrogant to consider anything else.

It's time to get more acquainted with your allies:

"behind Thailand’s fiery anti-government protest leader, Suthep Thaugsuban, are two powerful retired generals with palace connections, a deep rivalry with the Shinawatra family and an ability to influence Thailand’s coup-prone armed forces." http://www.chiangraitimes.com/news/20951.html

Your link was an interesting lead. But I wonder whether the military consider that a coup may not be so successful as in the past? A lot has changed since 2006. The north ad north-east is not so poor as it was once. Previously when people are concentrated on mere survival that was all that mattered. But the Issan region has benefitted from an economic upswing in the past half-dozen years and people are thinking more about quality of life rather than mere survival. They are thinking more about their place in the big scheme of things, and above all they are much more politicized than previous generations of people from that part of the world. In a phrase, the genie is out of the bottle.

Another point is that there cannot be many communities that did not have at least one member who was either killed or wounded in the troubles of 2010. Most people will know of someone who who either carries a wound or has paid with their lives during that tragic period.

So I think that these people will not stand idly by if the army attempts to carry out another coup. And the troubles will not take place in the centre of Bangkok but will be seen right across the north and issan regions. The battle will take place on home soil which gives the reds/udd an advantage. Now the army is well equipped to take on a protest settlement of a few thousand in the centre of the capital city but I doubt if they have the resources to handle a conflicright across the northern regions.

In 2010 they could call on elite troops with allegiances to Bangkok-based interests. In 2014 they would have to rely on conscripted soldiers, many of whom are from the poor north and north-east. Could they army expect the squaddie to fire on his own people? Suppose Suthep was to pull a stunt such as removing the right to vote for people without university degrees, as an example, thereby disenfranchising most of the people of these regions, I feel the people are no politicized to an extent that they would fight back to defend their rights. It's a battle the army could lose.

We can speculate about what the 'voters' will / will not do, until the water buffalo come home.

The bottom line is this 'current crisis' is not about a showdown between one man and the evil Shin family.

There are other powerful players behind the scenes, willing to step on anybody in their way. I'll leave it to you to speculate about what they really want.

[UncleJ]

Suthep has his chance for election reform while in office.

Next.

[Yunla]

Sorry but it's you who is out of your depth.

First, democracy is not based on cultural values. Parliamentary & presidential democracy is based on an historical incident or incidents and in many cases has not changed in comparison with culture which is dynamic. There is no perfect democracy but it cannot succeed if the rule of law doesn't exist which is why it has not been successful in Thailand. It hasn't been a total failure but it bows to the most manipulative individuals & groups.

No party here has anything close to an ideology. There are major groups of 'shirts' none of which espouse democratic principles. They are used by the major manipulators.

Many here, including many shallow-thinking posters on this thread, think that elections solve everything. 'We win so we can do what we like' attitude which is faux democracy. This is exacerbated by ignoring vote buying which results in a faux election.

Your comment on 'democracy street-style' is rubbish. Ask Martin Luther King, Occupy Wall St, the vietnam war, the Iraq invasion, austerity and protests in Egypt, Tunisia and currently in Ukraine. Suthep personally is not supported by many but his main thrust is. He has awakened Thai society to the dangers - past, present & future - of one-man 'democracy', of a type that would never be tolerated in established democracies.

Contrary to the lie or propaganda, he has proposed an interim (repeat interim) council not controlled by PTP (we saw where their last one went) that will sort out the most pressing problems with an election afterwards. He has not proposed himself for leadership Thaksin-style but has left open how the council should be formed. He certainly won't get everything he wants but if he can achieve a less vote-buying election and/or reduced Shin clan interference, he will have achieved a lot.

Yes Democracy is based <literally> on "a citizen's duty to attend the public Debates" if you want to get clinical about what Democracy <Greek> meant in the actual original Athenian Democracy, you will notice that I said Parliamentary Democracy varies from nation to nation and is based on cultural values, which it is. Some nations in Northern Europe have very different cultures and also temperaments, to other nations, so their Parliamentary system is built around this.

Fundamentally Democracy means "your duty to attend the public Debates" that is what it actually meant originally, which has morphed into "rule of the people," but in fact in the time when the word Democracy was created, in Athenian Democracy, most people were slaves and the other citizens didn't much mind that. The term was referring to a citizen who did not attend the public Debates should be stripped of his citizenship.

Parliamentary Democracy, being Debate based, the nature and structure of Parliament varies according to factors such as tolerance and manners and "fair play" etc. These differences are less noticeable these days, but they formed a backbone in many Parliaments before. My point was that Thai Parliament being somewhat infantile, needs to bypass the "spirit of fair play" and social-welfare cultures of the N.Europe Parliaments, as it doesn't apply here, and to have a much more rigorous process of Debate and of rattling through priorities and not allowing "dead issues" to float at the top of the Parliamentary agenda for years, like Thaksin's passport/absolution etc. The millions of government work hours wasted on policies like that are why this country is stalled. Parliament is the solution - not the problem, but it needs heavy regulation to stop handcuffing of priority issues, policy domination, absence, non-response etc.

This also kills your vote-buying problem that you raise as the only actual point besides the list of failed / inevitable-anyway by logical osmosis historical occupy/overthrow movements. I am 100% behind peaceful massprotest as I have said. It doesn't need to go beyond that. Democracy is about Debate, ie. talking, not smashing stuff up. But re; vote-buying it isn't a problem, if Parliament has a watchdog and a hammer-and-tongs system of policy-processing, would mean that the party with the most votes can NOT steamroller things through, has to attend and to engage in Debate, has to win the arguments, it has to be Consensus in Parliament. That way, whoever bought the most votes doesn't matter. The Leading party is almost purely decorative, state functions, announcements, etc. Its really not rocket science. The goal is to advance the nation through Democracy, ie. citizen Debate.

There is no reason why Suthep (or anyone in the public sphere) could not use that platform to campaign for Parliamentary re-writes on regulation, and for a "higher-appointed" body to act as watchdog in Parliament to see that the machine is running smoothly. It really is a machine. Debate is logic. It is science. The reason it fails is because the machine is badly maintained.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Yunla

[pookiki]

Sorry but it's you who is out of your depth.

First, democracy is not based on cultural values. Parliamentary & presidential democracy is based on an historical incident or incidents and in many cases has not changed in comparison with culture which is dynamic. There is no perfect democracy but it cannot succeed if the rule of law doesn't exist which is why it has not been successful in Thailand. It hasn't been a total failure but it bows to the most manipulative individuals & groups.

No party here has anything close to an ideology. There are major groups of 'shirts' none of which espouse democratic principles. They are used by the major manipulators.

Many here, including many shallow-thinking posters on this thread, think that elections solve everything. 'We win so we can do what we like' attitude which is faux democracy. This is exacerbated by ignoring vote buying which results in a faux election.

Your comment on 'democracy street-style' is rubbish. Ask Martin Luther King, Occupy Wall St, the vietnam war, the Iraq invasion, austerity and protests in Egypt, Tunisia and currently in Ukraine. Suthep personally is not supported by many but his main thrust is. He has awakened Thai society to the dangers - past, present & future - of one-man 'democracy', of a type that would never be tolerated in established democracies.

Contrary to the lie or propaganda, he has proposed an interim (repeat interim) council not controlled by PTP (we saw where their last one went) that will sort out the most pressing problems with an election afterwards. He has not proposed himself for leadership Thaksin-style but has left open how the council should be formed. He certainly won't get everything he wants but if he can achieve a less vote-buying election and/or reduced Shin clan interference, he will have achieved a lot.

Yes Democracy is based <literally> on "a citizen's duty to attend the public Debates" if you want to get clinical about what Democracy <Greek> meant in the actual original Athenian Democracy, you will notice that I said Parliamentary Democracy varies from nation to nation and is based on cultural values, which it is. Some nations in Northern Europe have very different cultures and also temperaments, to other nations, so their Parliamentary system is built around this.

Fundamentally Democracy means "your duty to attend the public Debates" that is what it actually meant originally, which has morphed into "rule of the people," but in fact in the time when the word Democracy was created, in Athenian Democracy, most people were slaves and the other citizens didn't much mind that. The term was referring to a citizen who did not attend the public Debates should be stripped of his citizenship.

Parliamentary Democracy, being Debate based, the nature and structure of Parliament varies according to factors such as tolerance and manners and "fair play" etc. These differences are less noticeable these days, but they formed a backbone in many Parliaments before. My point was that Thai Parliament being somewhat infantile, needs to bypass the "spirit of fair play" and social-welfare cultures of the N.Europe Parliaments, as it doesn't apply here, and to have a much more rigorous process of Debate and of rattling through priorities and not allowing "dead issues" to float at the top of the Parliamentary agenda for years, like Thaksin's passport/absolution etc. The millions of government work hours wasted on policies like that are why this country is stalled. Parliament is the solution - not the problem, but it needs heavy regulation to stop handcuffing of priority issues, policy domination, absence, non-response etc.

This also kills your vote-buying problem that you raise as the only actual point besides the list of failed / inevitable-anyway by logical osmosis historical occupy/overthrow movements. I am 100% behind peaceful massprotest as I have said. It doesn't need to go beyond that. Democracy is about Debate, ie. talking, not smashing stuff up. But re; vote-buying it isn't a problem, if Parliament has a watchdog and a hammer-and-tongs system of policy-processing, would mean that the party with the most votes can NOT steamroller things through, has to attend and to engage in Debate, has to win the arguments, it has to be Consensus in Parliament. That way, whoever bought the most votes doesn't matter. The Leading party is almost purely decorative, state functions, announcements, etc. Its really not rocket science. The goal is to advance the nation through Democracy, ie. citizen Debate.

There is no reason why Suthep (or anyone in the public sphere) could not use that platform to campaign for Parliamentary re-writes on regulation, and for a "higher-appointed" body to act as watchdog in Parliament to see that the machine is running smoothly. It really is a machine. Debate is logic. It is science. The reason it fails is because the machine is badly maintained.

Despite all the rhetoric about logic and debate, at the end of the day those with most votes win the argument.

[Yunla]

Despite all the rhetoric about logic and debate, at the end of the day those with most votes win the argument.

You should probably read that rhetoric more closely.

I am talking about Parliamentary reform so that the party with most votes does not have an automatic right to force things through or hog the agenda. I would criticise other nations around the world for this same reason, although much less so than here in Thailand.

Being elected as the Leading party should not mean you control the Parliamentary system, it is like you are hijacking a plane, a powerful machine capable of flying at high speed, but if you just hijack it and don't know anything about flying planes at speed, and you refuse to listen to veteran pilots offering you helpful advice, you can crash it. I propose anti-hijack security measures to be fitted to the Parliamentary aircraft.

I propose that changing this in Thailand, to the Parliamentary system attributes I listed above^ would solve the power-struggles here overnight and give rise to genuine Democratic progress and national development.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Yunla

[brit1984]

democrazy can't be reformed. it's a failed experiment in history and in the whole world. now, transformation is possible; to brand new political architecture. yes, it is. Siam is the best suited for it, too. There are Letters from 1935 that can be followed that would lead to a Dusit Thani.

IF i understand what you are saying i would just like to inform you that the year is now 2013, there is no Siam anymore, and the people in this world who have experienced democracy (however flawed it may be) will fight to the death to keep it

[metisdead]

A post in violation of this forum rule has been removed as well as a reply:

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.