SS Water Tank -- BEWARE!

[Ticketmaster]

I have certainly considered filtering the water BEFORE the tank. But, I come from a house that has no pump and no filter, and very low costs. While being a farang (I want it ll!), I am trying to be at least a little bit conservative. To effectively filter the water before the tank, which would be delightful, I would need two pumps. Two pumps strikes me as excessive, so I am endeavoring to get by with one.

Now I could do it with one pump if I had a complicated set of pipes and valves and wanted to manually switch the valves to fill the tank, then manually switch them back to pump from the tank to the house. However, I am trying to make the system as seamlessly automatic as possible.

But maybe you are right. I could get the smallest pump on the market for pre-filtering and filling the tanks, and it would be adequate.

[IMHO]

I have certainly considered filtering the water BEFORE the tank. But, I come from a house that has no pump and no filter, and very low costs. While being a farang (I want it ll!), I am trying to be at least a little bit conservative. To effectively filter the water before the tank, which would be delightful, I would need two pumps. Two pumps strikes me as excessive, so I am endeavoring to get by with one.

Now I could do it with one pump if I had a complicated set of pipes and valves and wanted to manually switch the valves to fill the tank, then manually switch them back to pump from the tank to the house. However, I am trying to make the system as seamlessly automatic as possible.

But maybe you are right. I could get the smallest pump on the market for pre-filtering and filling the tanks, and it would be adequate.

You would only need a second pump if the mains pressure was below the filter's minimum spec - in that case you'd also need a small holding tank for unfiltered water though, as directly pumping from the mains is a bit naughty

[Ticketmaster]

I have certainly considered filtering the water BEFORE the tank. But, I come from a house that has no pump and no filter, and very low costs. While being a farang (I want it ll!), I am trying to be at least a little bit conservative. To effectively filter the water before the tank, which would be delightful, I would need two pumps. Two pumps strikes me as excessive, so I am endeavoring to get by with one.

Now I could do it with one pump if I had a complicated set of pipes and valves and wanted to manually switch the valves to fill the tank, then manually switch them back to pump from the tank to the house. However, I am trying to make the system as seamlessly automatic as possible.

But maybe you are right. I could get the smallest pump on the market for pre-filtering and filling the tanks, and it would be adequate.

You would only need a second pump if the mains pressure was below the filter's minimum spec - in that case you'd also need a small holding tank for unfiltered water though, as directly pumping from the mains is a bit naughty

I live in a small village. I can plug the water from the main with my little finger. I know one is not supposed to pump from the main (illegal most places), but it seems to be standard procedure everywhere in Thailand (another ignored law).

[IMHO]

I have certainly considered filtering the water BEFORE the tank. But, I come from a house that has no pump and no filter, and very low costs. While being a farang (I want it ll!), I am trying to be at least a little bit conservative. To effectively filter the water before the tank, which would be delightful, I would need two pumps. Two pumps strikes me as excessive, so I am endeavoring to get by with one.

Now I could do it with one pump if I had a complicated set of pipes and valves and wanted to manually switch the valves to fill the tank, then manually switch them back to pump from the tank to the house. However, I am trying to make the system as seamlessly automatic as possible.

But maybe you are right. I could get the smallest pump on the market for pre-filtering and filling the tanks, and it would be adequate.

You would only need a second pump if the mains pressure was below the filter's minimum spec - in that case you'd also need a small holding tank for unfiltered water though, as directly pumping from the mains is a bit naughty

I live in a small village. I can plug the water from the main with my little finger. I know one is not supposed to pump from the main (illegal most places), but it seems to be standard procedure everywhere in Thailand (another ignored law).

Not that I would advocate breaking any rules, but so long as it flows, the smallest/cheapest 80-100w pump you could find would easily generate enough pressure & flow for any filter designed for mains work.

[Ticketmaster]

I suppose I would also need a pressure switch to protect the small pump in the event the mains ran dry -- and it will.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Ticketmaster

[Ticketmaster]

Just wondering, how do you secure a pump feom dry running with only a pressure switch? My guess is you need then at least an additional timer and contacter what allows the pump to run when there is.no pressure available (at start) or is the presure from the mains enough to close the contacts from the pressure switch?

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You are absolutely correct. I was fallaciously thinking of my old system back in the states which utilized a pressure tank. If there was insufficient pressure between the switch and the tank, it would cut off power to the submersible pump in the well. I had two pressure switches in that system, a cut on (pressure dropping on demand) and a cut off (pressure drops to near nothing because of no inflow on demand. Probably the simplest way would be to do what IMHO suggested, and pump from a small tank fed by the community water system. I could put a float switch in that tank -- and be in compliance with the no sucking allowed law.

With the failure of the SS tank, I need to redesign the whole thing I might as well improve it, and get clean water into the tank.

[nputman]

Good choice John, I neglected to also inform you about the problems with electrolysis in SS tanks.

Having mineral rich water can turn a SS tank into a battery real quickly.

Anyway I think even with the plumbing changes you'll be happy with the big blue one over a SS replacement.

[Orangutan]

Or you can buy the plastic tanks that are lined with PPR.

-O

[Ticketmaster]

Or you can buy the plastic tanks that are lined with PPR.

-O

What is PPR?

[Crossy]

GIYF:- PPR =Polypropylene Random Copolymer

To be honest, the mid-price Sandstone type plastic tanks give the best price-performance, 20 year warranty, no rot. In an enclosed pump house they should last forever.

[Soutpeel]

Proper ss should not be affected by iron or any other metal content in the water. Maybe the weld didn't contain enough Cr or just not done properly?

"Proper" stainless steel dear boy is destroyed by free iron as it breaks the chrome oxide layer in the materials and prevents the reformation of said layer and causes pin holes, all SS are susceptible to this form of attack even your duplex types, granted to a lessor degree than your 300 series stainless but are affected non the less

Nothing to do with the amount chrome

[Soutpeel]

I went to the shop where I purchased the tank, receipt and pictures in hand, They did not even blink and immediately offered me two (2) of the 2,000 liter "Sand Stone" plastic tanks. Or, they would replace the SS tank, if that is what I want. They were pushing me to the plastic tanks, however.

If fact, when I originally bought the SS tank, the owner of the shop asked me if i was on a well. I told her, "Yes, our community water supply is on a well." She told me that there had been a lot of problems with the SS tanks on well systems because of minerals in the water, and urged me to buy a plastic tank with a 20 year warranty for less than half the price of SS. I bought SS. I had my reasons, that had to do with the layout of the tank itself (inlets, outlet & drain).

After all the help from the folks here on this forum, especially Noel, and independent research, I have no doubt that my tank had a defective weld, since it failed in 8 months. However, since I am enclosing the tank into a pump house, I also have little doubt that I would be playing Russian Roulette if I get another SS tank, given the fact that I do have minerals in my water, especially iron and manganese. Even with good welds, it could fail from anywhere from 5-15 years down the road. Fifteen years would be great, but do I want risk having to tear out a wall in five years (or even in 8 months if I get another bad weld)? No.

The thing I hate most about the plastic tanks are the connections. I do not know who designed them, but the are just not convenient and require more turns in the pipes to get them connected right. The SS tanks with two inlets at the top, an outlet at the side and a drain at the bottom at 9 o'clock to the inlet, it is perfect. I need the two top inlets because I use a float switch to protect the pump in the event the community water supply cuts off and the tank draws down. I do NOT want two tanks. I do not need two tanks, so it only adds a level of complexity. Since my tank is house, UV is no concern.

Thus, I have decided to go with one of those dark blue plastic water tanks. They are available in larger formats that the "Sand Stone" type tanks, and they have places on the top that are reinforced whee extra perforations can be made. These tanks should last a lifetime if kept out of the sun. The "Sand Stone" type tanks are only 5mm thick and adding a perforation to one of those will not only void the warranty, but is asking for trouble.

I sure did like that SS tank in all respects. Damned shame they use shit steel, and have an unnecessary welded seam round the middle (too cheap to use the wider rolled stock).

Good service. I do not agree with your statement that they used "shit steel" if you need a metal tank what can stand every environment and medium stored in it, then choose platinum. Stainless is not corrosion free. Platinum is.

Arjen.

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The shop in Phitsanulok, Saoake, has over the top service. They are strictly a "can do" company. The workers are all smiles and happy, too, so I have to think they are treated well.

As for the SS tank, perhaps not “shit steel,” but certainly shit construction methods and quality control, which resulted in shit steel. It used shit construction by having a weld that could have been completely avoided with wider material, and they either failed to or did a defective job of pickling and passivation.

I am NOT complaining. Considering the fact that the tank will go into a closed building where replacing it will be a large problem, I am lucky that the SS tank was defective.

Chlorides are also hell on SS. Chlorine contamination can be a serious problem. My water has a slight amount amount of chlorides (16.6 MG/L), which contributes to the problem. Mixing chlorides and iron is also not good (my iron is 0.57MG/L). All in all, and given my ignorance at the time, a SS tank was a poor choice for my water.

Bottom line for TV members considering a SS water tank: You may want to have your water tested for iron and chlorides and educate yourself on stainless steel before purchasing. There is a lot more to it than I ever knew.

High chlorides will not cause pin holes, under the right conditions it will cause a something called SCC and the material will crack as the chlorides attack the materials grain boundaries at a micro-scopic level

SS is a wonderful material is used correctly but it can and will fail in catastrophic manner if not used correctly

[bankruatsteve]

Proper ss should not be affected by iron or any other metal content in the water. Maybe the weld didn't contain enough Cr or just not done properly?

"Proper" stainless steel dear boy is destroyed by free iron as it breaks the chrome oxide layer in the materials and prevents the reformation of said layer and causes pin holes, all SS are susceptible to this form of attack even your duplex types, granted to a lessor degree than your 300 series stainless but are affected non the less

Nothing to do with the amount chrome

Hey dadio, if you need to be condescending you should at least have grasp of what your are talking about. Unfortunately you don't seem to understand what you are googling. Or, perhaps you can explain how rust Fe203 in solution can somehow "destroy" a passive layer of Cr203? There needs to be electron exchange for corrosion via the several chemical reactions including electrolysis that can corrode ss - and that usually needs a halogen. Don't talk about what you don't know.

[bankruatsteve]

Proper ss should not be affected by iron or any other metal content in the water. Maybe the weld didn't contain enough Cr or just not done properly?

"Proper" stainless steel dear boy is destroyed by free iron as it breaks the chrome oxide layer in the materials and prevents the reformation of said layer and causes pin holes, all SS are susceptible to this form of attack even your duplex types, granted to a lessor degree than your 300 series stainless but are affected non the less

Nothing to do with the amount chrome

Hey dadio, if you need to be condescending you should at least have grasp of what your are talking about. Unfortunately you don't seem to understand what you are googling. Or, perhaps you can explain how rust Fe203 in solution can somehow "destroy" a passive layer of Cr203? There needs to be electron exchange for corrosion via the several chemical reactions including electrolysis that can corrode ss - and that usually needs a halogen. Don't talk about what you don't know.

My guess is that you do not know where you talk about. Maybe reading your schoolbooks again can help?

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Actually I did - and nothing to support your claim. So, you support it, if you can. My guess is you cannot.

[Soutpeel]

Proper ss should not be affected by iron or any other metal content in the water. Maybe the weld didn't contain enough Cr or just not done properly?

"Proper" stainless steel dear boy is destroyed by free iron as it breaks the chrome oxide layer in the materials and prevents the reformation of said layer and causes pin holes, all SS are susceptible to this form of attack even your duplex types, granted to a lessor degree than your 300 series stainless but are affected non the less

Nothing to do with the amount chrome

Hey dadio, if you need to be condescending you should at least have grasp of what your are talking about. Unfortunately you don't seem to understand what you are googling. Or, perhaps you can explain how rust Fe203 in solution can somehow "destroy" a passive layer of Cr203? There needs to be electron exchange for corrosion via the several chemical reactions including electrolysis that can corrode ss - and that usually needs a halogen. Don't talk about what you don't know.

My guess is that you do not know where you talk about. Maybe reading your schoolbooks again can help?

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Actually I did - and nothing to support your claim. So, you support it, if you can. My guess is you cannot.

Go and read your text books dear boy or I suppose my professors where wrong when I did my degree in physical metallurgy many moons ago, and then advanced diplomas in welding engineering were wrong in technical content as well ? .....yes I know nothing

Please don't start a debate your not going to win

[bankruatsteve]

Hey Soutpeel, this is just too juicy to resist. Debate a chemical reaction? I'm good for that. My BS in Chem was a long time ago and I haven't used my education for that in my career but let's go:

Here's my point: You say that rusty water will "destroy" ss (eg: FeO in water will somehow attack a passive layer of CrO). I say it will not. Debate on?

[bankruatsteve]

Let's say it in this way. Everyone who works with metal, and special SS, learns, and nows that you should not touch SS with mild steel. Not to grind SS with iron containing grinding disks, and not to machine mild metal close to SS. Drilling a hole in SS with a HSS drillbit will cause rust.

You believe that leaving an iron nail on your SS kitchen knife changes it in gold. I, and I guess southpeel KNOWS it will make the knife rusty.

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Agree with the first part - but that's not rusty water. A wet iron nail on ss will leave a rust deposit (from the nail). That is easily cleaned off but may leave a stain which is not further oxidizing the ss.

[IMHO]

3 chemists walked into a bar, and......

[bankruatsteve]

It will further oxidate the SS! Even if you mark SS with a marker containing iron (red markers for example) the mark you make will rust, unless pickled and proper passivated.

I was told, but it seems you now better, that the chrome "moves" to the free iron the thus reducing the minium amount of chrome needed to protect against rust. If this is really happening I do not know, but from experience I know it looks like that. When you leave that nail on your stainless steel kitchen knive, preferable with some water but that is not really necessary there will be a crater in your knife. And it goes amazingly fast!

Try it. ......

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Passive = inactive So why would the Cr want to move anywhere? Cr oxidizes instantly. It forms a tight bond and will not flake off and continue "rusting" like iron does. I started your experiment with some rusty rebar and a spoon - so unless it must be a nail and a knife, I'll report back in a couple days.

Also consider this: ss cookware, albeit most likely higher levels of Cr and Ni than the typical storage tank, repeatedly take on high heat, cooking with salt and mild acids, and being abused by metal spoons and spatulas but clean up like new every time - unless you really burn the hell out of something.

[bankruatsteve]

"rust" is usually associated with iron - but, yes it's oxidation of the metal. The protection in ss is not the iron oxidation, it's the Cr oxidation which occurs instantly (like Al) that provides the passive protective layer over the alloy. Light damage due to scratches, etc. of ss will actually "heal" itself. But unless some reaction involving electrolysis, stress, or abnormal (acidic) condition occurs, ss is not susceptible to further rust in the iron.

Happy holidays to you too.

[bankruatsteve]

There is not much iron needed to damage the Cr Oxode permanent.

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So am I having the debate with you? So then, how much iron is needed? And, if damaged, what do you expect will happen? I have already answered that.

[bankruatsteve]

No, we do not need and I do not want to debate. Yiu expect that kitchenware changes in gold. I am quite sure that that will not happen. I know by experience that very small particles mild steel on every SS surface will leave within a few weeks clearly visible craters on the SS surface. That is all I and soutpeel said, and what ticketmaster noticed.

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OK let's stop then. FYI: the 'gold' reference was joking. The argument that I had with somebody was about rusty water. And if you find craters from very small particle of mild steel on stainless steel after a few weeks, my guess is that you have been cheated on the ss.

Cheers, bye and done.

[bankruatsteve]

Interesting to notice that you say that all companies who work with stainless do not need to "pickle and passivate" What they all do.....

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I said that? I have no experience with the mfg of ss alloy or companies who work with it. There you go.

Actually, the only reason I am responding is to update the 'experiment'. After 2 days there is absolutely nothing going on. I was expecting a rust deposit - but not even that. So, I'm going to put my spoon back to better use and let someone else take on experimenting if really think something is going to happen (which it won't).

[taotoo]

Both iron and steel (stainless or otherwise) are both rehydric metals, as such their chemical composition is unaffected by outside influence UNLESS stimulated by atmospheric perfluence(s). Thailand being tropical increases the likelihood of this occurring, HOWEVER it is still relatively uncommon (at least in a domestic situation - manufacturing is more susceptible). It could be that local conditions have lead to a +15nc BUT even then there would have to be some sort of nalegnite interaction which I don't think could happen outside of a momoline plant. I stand to be corrected.