Did I do something really that wrong, or was it the Thai drivers?

Incident 1:

Today I had a great VISA run, which I thoroughly enjoyed, including chewing betel nut in Tachiliek with Burmese (it has a nice kick and I even brought some back with me), and climbing up to explore the temple and view from the Mae Sae side.

Ironically, the hardest part of the whole trip was getting to and from the Arcade bus terminal in Chiang Mai, and the way back gets a special award for being my single most unpleasant experience with a Thai to date.

I agreed on 30 baht to get to my Soi in the old city in the pouring rain. The guy's songtaew was missing some windows (or should I call them sliding plastic pieces?), and so everyone was getting drenched until someone opened his umbrella in the back to block the worst of the spray. The open umbrella, combined with the sheets of rain, made visibility from the back difficult, but I could still see when the driver passed up my Soi.

I wasn’t sure what to do. I gestured and everyone else knew what had happened but also looked perplexed as to what to do about it. There was no opening to the cab to communicate with the driver. On reflection I should have pounded on the glass, and not doing so was, I guess, where I screwed up. I just waited to see if he was dropping off someone else first, or when he’d figure out he missed my Soi. I couldn’t even leap out to tell him until he finally stopped the truck.

He circled to the back and started gesticulating and yelling at me in Thai. I say, “You passed it up, what was I supposed to do?” I asked. Didn’t really know how to say that, or scream it, in Thai. He indicated I was to get the hel_l out and walk back (about 4 blocks) in the pounding rain, then he circled back to the shelter of the cab. So, I got out, open my new compact Mae Sae emergency umbrella, and start hiking back. This seemed to surprise the Thais in the back of the truck. Crazy Farang behavior.

Naturally, the guy came flying after me screaming again, “money, money, money.” I said, “You didn’t take me there.” I suppose it was unthinkable for him to turn the truck around and take me to my agreed upon destination, seeing as, even with my little umbrella, my feet and sandals were submerged in a puddle and I was getting soaked from the waste down.

After some quick mental processing I decided not to do any mud wrestling with him, and took out my wallet to give him the money. He then snatched the umbrella from me to shield himself. I didn’t have 30 baht exactly and suspected change wouldn’t be forthcoming, so I gave him a 20 and said, “Yee-sip baht, gor laao gan” (20 baht, and that’s final).

He grabbed the money and slapped me across the chin, more in a gesture of angry disgust than to inflict any pain. Now, I know he had to have lost face big time. In fact, I never even got mad, and I pretty much laughed the whole way home because the situation was just too ridiculous.

I can take some pleasure in knowing the guy got pretty drenched coming after me. Maybe in Thai culture I was wrong. In the West I think I was in the right. So, a clash of civilizations. But, I think I partly learned how to laugh it off from the Thais.

Incident 2:

4 or 5 days ago I was crossing a street, almost home from a long walk in the blazing heat and sauna-like humidity. Coming at me like a torpedo was a lone motorbike. This time I knowingly broke the rules. I didn’t scramble out of the way and duck for cover, but just kept walking at my same pace as if I weren’t in a country where any vehicle has the right to mow down pedestrians like mangy Soi dogs.

I’d just seen Mission Impossilbe 3, and maybe I was still wearing brass balls from having vicariously partaken in 2 hours of Tom Cruise’s character’s bravado antics. But, mostly, I just couldn’t muster the energy to throw myself into a mad panic, even when the driver of the bike started honking at me.

He slowed down at the last second to curse me out in Thai while doing something like flipping me the bird, only his hands aimed down instead of up. Couldn’t see his face through his helmet shield. I called out, “May dai yin. May kao jai” (I didn’t hear. I don’t understand). He stopped his bike, possibly contemplating turning around an attempting assaulting me -- here, I would have mustered the energy to defend my person – then thought better of it and continued on his angry way. Again, I got a few chuckles out of the incident, partly because so often Thais have ticked me off trying to rip me off, and yet if I were to get heated I’d automatically be in the wrong.

This was another clash of civilizations, I suppose. I know pedestrians have no rights here, but I still remember that I’m not just in Thailand, but on the planet Earth, and you can’t just mow people down when all your have to do is turn your wrist a fraction of an inch to go around them. I am probably wrong again, and usually I jump around like a cricket in a frying pan to get out of the way of traffic. Sometimes I slip up, though.

The hard truth is I’d better forget any other perspective, and accept that in a songtaew or tuk-tuk, or on the street, I’m less than human (my clinging to a fragment of humanity is obviously an enormously offensive faux-pas), or else, I’m bound to pay the price in blood, bone, baht, and more.

But was I really that wrong, or were these special “hai rawn” Thais, or both?

Edited May 14, 200620 yr by just plain different

Was it the first time that you had been in a Song Taew - you are supposed to push one of the buzzers on the roof to get the guy to stop - if he didn't stop that is your problem, and if you don't pay the agreed amount then do you expect him to be happy about that?

I understand that you aren't really wrong in the second incident, but you have to be careful acting lin what will be construed as a pretty aggressive manner - life is pretty cheap here (Thailand - not Planet Earth).

Unlike Tom Cruise, you are mortal and live a dangerous life...

Even proper buses won't always stop at bus stops unless you ring the buzzer or attract the drivers's attention - and even then they might ignore you if they're feeling bolshy and/or in a hurry.

You have to pay the agreed bus fare, and you still have to take the extra hike. I don't know Chiang Mai very well, but if the Song Teow drivers are the same as they are in other parts of Thailand, then I wouldn't mess with them too much, its just not worth it.

I also wouldn't mess with bolshy aggressive motor cyclists.

Life's too short.

I didn’t scramble out of the way and duck for cover, but just kept walking at my same pace as if I weren’t in a country where any vehicle has the right to mow down pedestrians like mangy Soi dogs.

So what country is it safe to walk in the middle of the road?

Even in England or the States I wouldnt think or take for granted that a car was going to slowdown for me when I'm walking in the road, which is the place for cars and bikes.

Anybody recollect the details from a few years back regarding the farang biker who was shot and killed by the Thai driver that he pissed off? Think the guy flipped off the Thai, cut him off, or something like that. If memory serves, this happened somewhere along Moon Muang Rd.

THAT explains it. I didn't know there was a buzzer in songtaews. I've rode them before, but never needed it and never saw anyone use it. Never had a problem. I'm surprised none of the Thais hit the buzzer for me, since they seemed to know esxactly what was going on.

Sure, if the guy hand't screamed and yelled at me, and instead turned around and took me to my Soi, I'd have tipped him. But, when he yelled at me to get out, and ran back to his cab, I kinda' thought he was just so ticked he didn't care about the money and was happy to punish me by verbally abusing me and making me walk 4 blocks in pounding rain. I didn't realize I was supposed to take the well-deserved insults and abuse, and then meekly go to the cab to pay my inflated Farang price.

If I missed my stop on a bus, of course I wouldn't expect the driver to take me back (he's got a set route), and wouldn't expect to not pay. But I also wouldn't expect to get hollered at for it, in front of the other passengers, and get kicked out of the bus.

Thanks for the sympathetic ear.

Road rage is definately not related to any nationality.

I didn’t scramble out of the way and duck for cover, but just kept walking at my same pace as if I weren’t in a country where any vehicle has the right to mow down pedestrians like mangy Soi dogs.

So what country is it safe to walk in the middle of the road?

Even in England or the States I wouldnt think or take for granted that a car was going to slowdown for me when I'm walking in the road, which is the place for cars and bikes.

You don't mean "walk in the middle of the road," you mean, "cross the road". Roads are intended both for vehicles to drive on and for people to cross over, or else people couldn't get from point A to point B without getting in a vehicle -- they'd be stuck within the confines of one block. In the West, at least, it is generally accepted that when people are crossing a road, one doesn't have the right to barrel down on them expecting them to leap out of the way or be plowed into. You may have heard the phrase, "the pedestrian always has the right of way".

I KNOW it's different here, even if one is at a crosswalk and has the green light. The pedestrian is expected to fend for his or her life, just the same as a Soi dog crossing the street. This gets a little ridiculous when there's just one pedestrian and one motorbike on a street (not a Soi), and the motorbike intends to force the pedestrian to flee or suffer the consequences.

You don't mean "walk in the middle of the road," you mean, "cross the road". Roads are intended both for vehicles to drive on and for people to cross over, or else people couldn't get from point A to point B without getting in a vehicle -- they'd be stuck within the confines of one block. In the West, at least, it is generally accepted that when people are crossing a road, one doesn't have the right to barrel down on them expecting them to leap out of the way or be plowed into. You may have heard the phrase, "the pedestrian always has the right of way".

In Thailand the larger vehicle has the right of way. Motorbike beats pedestrian, car beats motorbike etc.

You don't mean "walk in the middle of the road," you mean, "cross the road". Roads are intended both for vehicles to drive on and for people to cross over, or else people couldn't get from point A to point B without getting in a vehicle -- they'd be stuck within the confines of one block. In the West, at least, it is generally accepted that when people are crossing a road, one doesn't have the right to barrel down on them expecting them to leap out of the way or be plowed into. You may have heard the phrase, "the pedestrian always has the right of way".

In Thailand the larger vehicle has the right of way. Motorbike beats pedestrian, car beats motorbike etc.

Yeah, I've made this same observation. I wonder if it's law, or just practice. it's just one of those things, like people cutting in line, that one has to take along with all the good stuff. But, as I said, I still slip up now and again and bristle at actions (such as Thais cutting in line) that are a bit behind the Western model. In other ways they are ahead, such as in allowing lady-boys to go to their everyday jobs in drag. In the West, those individuals might not even make it to work without harm. Each culture has it's strengths and weaknesses.

Well, anyway, yeah, I admit I have a few wrinkles to iron out in my adapting to Thai culture. Gotta' say though, my whole day was awesome up until the fated songtaew ride. The people at the bus stations, on the buses, in Chiang Rai, in Mae Sai, in immigration at the border on both sides, and in Myanmar were all super nice = probably why the screaming driver amused rather than upset me.

ba ba boi boi It would seem that your experiences in songtaews is somewhat like your Thai. They both need further investigation.

You don't mean "walk in the middle of the road," you mean, "cross the road". Roads are intended both for vehicles to drive on and for people to cross over, or else people couldn't get from point A to point B without getting in a vehicle -- they'd be stuck within the confines of one block. In the West, at least, it is generally accepted that when people are crossing a road, one doesn't have the right to barrel down on them expecting them to leap out of the way or be plowed into. You may have heard the phrase, "the pedestrian always has the right of way".

In Thailand the larger vehicle has the right of way. Motorbike beats pedestrian, car beats motorbike etc.

Makes complete sense, doesn't it?

Bike has better visibility, better manuvering, than a car, making the car more dangerous to the biker....

Same when comparing a car to a six-wheel truck....

I think the drivers here are mostly good. They have to be, otherwise everyone would be getting in accidents... Many of the extremely dangerous manouvers we see are no big deal to most thais, and they just carry on. Mostly...

If more farangs would drive like (most of) the Thais, there would be fewer acidents, I feel sure. In farangland, there are 'rights' of the road based on law, and it's enforced. there, here there is no enforcement, so common sense, like 'might is right' or 'who is in front?' comes into play... I've driven this way for 20+ years, and I'm accidfent-free...

You are exactly like your name...Just Plain Different.....and in Thailand, that could be a dangerous way to live.

In Thailand the larger vehicle has the right of way. Motorbike beats pedestrian, car beats motorbike etc.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Many Thai drivers drive as though motor bikes don't exist, and cut them off at any opportunity. About 60 % of the road deaths are motorcyclists, and many people assume it always bad driving by the motorcyclist. In many instances - and I know of a few personally- the motorcyclist was completely innocent and just got mowed down by a car.

The guy was probably getting his own back - not to be condoned, but a fact of life.

JPD, no-one is saying your are wrong to be angry, we're just suggesting that in Thailand it's probably wiser just to 'let it go' - pay the guy his extra 10 baht, and nip sharply out of the way if a bike looks like he's heading straight for you.

Makes sense don't it?

I figured out a long time ago that we Westerners often think right away that we are right in these kind confrontations, but with some thought, realize later that we weren't.

All I can say is - for ALL our sakes - be very careful when you really don't understand the culture where you are staying.

Edited May 15, 200620 yr by Ulysses G.

In the West, at least, it is generally accepted that when people are crossing a road, one doesn't have the right to barrel down on them expecting them to leap out of the way or be plowed into. You may have heard the phrase, "the pedestrian always has the right of way".

The pedestrian has right of way? This 'West's ' cities must all be walking streets....

I think it's called jaywalking, and the pedestrian gets fined.

30 baht from the bus station is not an inflated price, it is a rather normal fare. 15 baht is the price from the river to Nimmanheimin or so during daytime.

By the way, are you sure he had the option of turning back? That the street was not a one way one?

As for the rest, if this is your approach, my guess is that it will not take you very far before you get into serious trouble. Along the way, you might further alienate Thais from westerners and make the situation worse for others who stay here. Maybe it is time to concentrate less on being right, and more on learning about the place you are in.

I really ticked off a Thai the other day.I told the wife that her sister would be a great shag!

I really ticked off a Thai the other day.I told the wife that her sister would be a great shag!

yeah i ticked off A THAI quite a number of times too. hope it doesnt go on to the streets outside the house.

Please do not compare it with the WEST, this is Thailand so in Rome do as the Romans do.

Agreeing on 30 baht but you paid 20 baht Dont be a cheap charlie and do not expect all moving vehicles to stop for you when you take your own sweet time to cross the road.

Suggest you take a meter-taxi the next time you need to move around in Chiangmai, it will bring you right to your doorstep.

Just plain different I think after reading previous posts you will have gathered in both incidents you were wrong. I don't know which country you are originally from but in both instances you would also be wrong.

There is no way in any country you can walk across a road and expect a vehicle coming towards you to drive round you. It just doesn't happenYou do need to be extra careful here.

As far as driving here is concerned the general standard is poor at best. No driving lessons, many have never taken a driving test. They do not have any basic road sense and common sense just does not come into play in many instances.

Every day I see the most crazy moves, a lot are caused by lack of patience and a lack of awareness of other road users. Thai drivers just wont wait, they will pull out or do something else totally crazy with out looking or with total disregard, like driving up the wrong way of the road etc etc. Red lights mean little to many drivers.

Put all this together and you have a very dangerous driving environment. There are many accidents here and they happen every day in Chiang Mai.

One thing for sure, we (farangs) arrive to Thailand with the attention span of a gnat on the road.

We leave Thailand with Ninja skills.... huaaaahooohaa

Edited May 15, 200620 yr by KhunMarco

One thing for sure, we (farangs) arrive to Thailand with the attention span of a gnat on the road.

We leave Thailand with Ninja skills.... huaaaahooohaa

One thing for sure, we (farangs) arrive to Thailand with the attention span of a gnat on the road.

We leave Thailand with Ninja skills.... huaaaahooohaa

Where is that TV quote of the day thingie!!

The Thai have no meaningful infrastructure in place that reconciles the differing and often conflicting needs of the pedestrian and the motorist. Thus, negotiating the highways and byeways of this silly country is fraught with danger and one literally takes one's life in one's hands when crossing a road or using the services of a songthaew driver who genetically belongs to another species of man.

In my time here I have pursued a philosophy which, touch wood, has so far left me relatively unscathed. I assume that all Thai are imbiciles with less commonsense than a very stupid gerbil. Armed with this belief I conduct myself accordingly and take nothing for granted. Starting from such a low base has its own reward in that when intelligence is eventually demonstrated my mood is enhanced and I actually begin to think there are grounds for optimism. Unfortunately, this invariably proves fleeting and lasts as long as it takes for the next Pizza Express delivery boy to try and mow me down with his motorcycle whilst I walk on the alleged Sukumvit pavement.

Sill, it all adds to the drama I suppose and beats Worthing any day.

There is no way in any country you can walk across a road and expect a vehicle coming towards you to drive round you. It just doesn't happenYou do need to be extra careful here.

[insult deleted. ]

In the US, legally, the pedestrian always has the right away in a marked or unmarked pedestrian crossing. If you mow someone down, you are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. This, and common courtesy, means that almost anywhere in the US, drivers will at least slow down for crossing pedestrians; the have to. I'm sure there are some uncivilized <deleted> holes in the US where there are exceptions, but even in NYC, people slow for crossing pedestrians.

Now, I do agree that you have to play by the rules here, but don't try to make excuses that there is more humanity on the roads here than in civilized countires. A human on the road has no more value than a dog; it's all a sickening face game.

Edited May 15, 200620 yr by meadish_sweetball

well well , ok Thais are not the best drivers on the planet, but you gotta admit they give to "car pool" a new meaning.

Let' go pick mum up at work kids!

Edited May 15, 200620 yr by KhunMarco

The law regarding pedestrian crossings is similar in Sweden to the US, but in the OPs case there was no such pedestrian crossing mentioned.

I notice many farang making the mistake of thinking that the lack of obeying rules here means you can step out into the street whenever you like, instead of waiting for a suitable gap like most Thais would do.

I have also seen several examples of farang (usually younger tourists by the looks of it) who drive their motorbikes and bicycles opposite traffic on one way streets...

It's not that simple. Of course the traffic manners here are often not on par with Western countries, but let's not exaggerate and generalize too much, ok?

I was told many moons ago just to walk when theres a decent break i the traffic and they'll drive around me if they get near.

Its still tough to do but I've never had a problem yet anywhere in Thailand following that simple rule.

I hate saying things like that.................................tempting fate.....