UK English Test

[gprit]

We are getting married (in Thailand) in January. I am British, wife is Thai. We are then travelling to France together for three months (under Schengen visa) and also want to apply for a UK Visa before we go. I am however a little confused as to what the English A1 Level test actually comprises - other than only listening and speaking is needed.

My confusion lies in what I have read on the official providers list from UKBA (Person and Cambridge), which seem quite stringent and based on computer voice recongnition.

However, videos I see on Youtube are of a much more informal one-to-one nature and consist mainly of quite easy banal sentences.

Which is the realistic one? My own thoughts are that when listening particulalry, word recognition is hugely enhanced in a face to face contact situatuion.

My other thought on this is (as time is tight) that we apply for a visitor passport to UK (renewable) and take the Language test in the UK if needed, although I understand that she would need to return to Thailand IF an application for a Settlement Visa was made.

I say IF because we are not sure yet where to settle - UK (where I have a small house)....France (where I have a large house). It may be that my wife doesn't like either and we might sell all and buy property in Thailand (currenly renting).

Any thoughts appreciated.

[MaprangHolmes]

If you are just applying for a family visit / Visitor visa for the UK than there is know need for any English tests the A1 level is need for a settlement visa, not sure what you mean by renewable but remember your wife may only spend 6 months out of 12 in the UK on a Family visit / Visitors visa.

[7by7]

As said above, the English test is a requirement for settlement, not for visits.

Unfortunately, the test providers in Thailand are business orientated and are unwilling to provide simpler tests for spouse/partners. In addition, although the requirement for a spouse or partner is just in speaking and listening, they will insist that she takes, and pays for, reading and writing as well. I guess that this is for commercial reasons.

However, the entry clearance section at the embassy have confirmed that it does not matter what an applicant has scored in reading and writing, as long as they have achieved at least A1 in speaking and listening.

She almost certainly would find a simpler test in the UK and be able to take just speaking and listening; and she is allowed to take one whilst here as a visitor.

However, the conditions of a general or family visit expressly forbid undertaking a course of study; so she would not be able to formally study for it.

If she does decide to take the test while in the UK as a visitor, make sure she takes one with no expiry. Some provider's passes expire after two years (unfortunately, all the providers in Thailand are in this category).

See the list of approved test providers.

For the standard required for all the CEFR levels, see here. (This is a commercial site; I am not recommending their services, and have only used it as it contains a simple explanation of the various levels.)

[gprit]

Thanks for that - studying is not really necessary as her English is quite good, just needs practice with exam-style questions.

My only concern with applying as a Visitor is that we will already be married, and her surname will be the same(!). Not sure if this would prejudice application.

Am I correct in saying that if we did then want to apply for marriage visa she would have to return to Thailand to apply?...or can it be applied for whilst in UK?

Also would not need to take the British Life' test for marriage visa?

I would also add that we have a young son (he has full Brtish and Thai passports so no complication for him).

[7by7]

That she is your wife should not be a bar to her obtaining a UK visit visa; especially if you live in Thailand with her.

See UK visit visa basics for more.

It is not possible to convert a visit visa into settlement whilst in the UK; so yes, she will have to return to Thailand and apply there.

For the initial application and for her Further leave to Remain application after living in the UK for 30 months she only needs A1, or the equivalent, in English speaking and listening. She doesn't need the Life in the UK test and the higher B1 speaking and listening qualification until she applies for Indefinite Leave to Remain in the UK after she has lived in the UK for 5 years.

See UK settlement visa basics for more; including the financial requirement.

[gprit]

Could she apply for a Spouse Visa (different from Settlement visa??) whilst on a visitor visa in the uk?

Also, I realise that if she had a visitor visa she would need a Schengen visa to go to France on other occasions...BUT,

if she was in the Uk on a Marriage Visa would that be enough to enable her to travel to France / Schengen countries freely?

Seem to recall somewhere that the UK Visa could show that she was entitled to do this.

thanks. (

[7by7]

Although often talked about on forums such as this; there is no such thing as a spouse visa. Spouse is actually one of the categories of settlement.

There is also no such thing as a marriage visa. There is a marriage visit visa which is for someone who wants to come to the UK to marry but doesn't want to remain afterwards.

It can also be confusing because when the UKBA website talks about "settlement" it actually means ILR; for the initial visa you need to look under "Partners and families."

Visit visas, even marriage visit visas, cannot be converted to any form of settlement in the UK.

With regard to your questions about the Schengen area, probably best if I refer you to this topic rather than repeat it all here.

[gprit]

Think I have got the gist of things now as far as visas go.

Still unclear about the complexity of the English A1 Level Test.

My confusion lies in what I have read on the official providers list from UKBA (Person and Cambridge), which seem quite stringent and based on computer voice recongnition.

However, videos I see on Youtube are of a much more informal one-to-one nature and consist mainly of quite easy banal sentences.

Which is the realistic one? My own thoughts are that when listening particulalry, word recognition is hugely enhanced in a face to face contact situatuion.

Any practical experience to share?

thanks

.

[7by7]

I have no personal experience as both my wife and step daughter came to the UK and became British citizens before these tests were introduced.

From the experience of others I was able to say above that

Unfortunately, the test providers in Thailand are business orientated and are unwilling to provide simpler tests for spouse/partners. In addition, although the requirement for a spouse or partner is just in speaking and listening, they will insist that she takes, and pays for, reading and writing as well. I guess that this is for commercial reasons.

However, the entry clearance section at the embassy have confirmed that it does not matter what an applicant has scored in reading and writing, as long as they have achieved at least A1 in speaking and listening.

I have already provided a link to the standards required for the various CEFR levels, which shows that A1 is very basic.

As do the comments on the standard required from the various approved providers on the UKBA list; which vary from 'weak' up to 'borderline;' i.e. not very high at all.

You have already said that your wife's English is quite good. How good? If she can hold a conversation in English with you then she is more than capable of meeting the requirement.

As I have already said, if she wants to avoid the more business orientated providers in Thailand then as she is coming to the UK for a visit anyway there is no reason why she cannot take the test in the UK during her visit.

I have no further advice to offer on the test; maybe someone whose partner has actually taken it will see this topic and respond.

[durhamboy]

gprit - my wife did the English Test in Thailand. Firstly she did TOEIC and she failed because she was not "miked up" properly for the Speaking Test. She then did the BULATS test which she passed. With tuition fees, exam fees and travelling to test centres (there are only about 4 test centres in Thailand!) the whole thing cost me about £500 i.e. in addition to the £900 for the visa!

Both TOEIC and BULATS have a 2 year validity but how this works with UKV&I for someone who subsequently comes here and speaks English every day is unclear and the subject of an ongoing topic in this forum.

7 by 7 has outlined the requirements of the test and you say your wife's English is good. I thought my wife's English was pretty good but she still failed. Listening is ridiculously easy as questions are answered on a multiple choice basis i.e. choose answer A, B, C or D. The passmark is only 12% and simply guessing Answer "A" everytime would probably give you 25% i.e. twice the passmark!

The problem test is the Speaking one. This one really gets my goat because whilst candidates do not need to pass a reading test they need to read some of the questions in order to respond. Thai of course has its own script so it can be a problem for those who cant read roman script.

By the way, I did say quite a while ago that it would be a good idea for this forum to pin the basics of the English Test as a separate subject at the beginning of the forum. It is a very confusing subject and listing the basics would help people and save a lot of repetition. My personal opinion is that the English Test system is a shambles and if the government wants everyone to speak English (as ideally everyone should) then UKV&I should devise a standard test for everyone instead of piggy-backing on existing tests which were never designed for visa purposes.

One thing occurs to me (and others know a lot more about this than me) is that as you have strong connections with France could you not bring your wife to the UK as the partner of someone resident in the EU? I'm sure 7 by 7 can advise on that one.

[gprit]

Thank you for that practical information. To brush up we are going through sample papers(!).

It seems also that during January and February one of the approved test providers only has on day in February available for a test...

As an aside I read the UKBA section on TB Testing. Certainly could do with someone who can write Englisg to redo that section!!!

It is an interesting point about the French route. At the moment I am seemingly without a resident country, spending (nearly) six months in Thailand, four in France and two in the UK.

I will have to look up the rules for Residency in France (and of course we may decide to stay in France eventually). Have had a place there for fifteen years now, and the local Marie was happy enough to approve an Attestation d'accueil towards a 90 day visit Visa.

If anyone has information about the France / Europe route that would be good to hear.

[7by7]

Both Britain and France are members of the EU and the EEA, and EEA nationals have the right to live in another EEA country and have their non EEA national family members live there with them provided the EEA national is:

• studying,
• job seeking,
• employed,
• self employed or
• living off independent means, e.g. a pension.

So, to live in France with your wife you would simply have to show that

• you are an EEA national, e.g. British,
• you and your wife are married, (Note that if married in Thailand you will need a translation of your Thai marriage certificate. An English one will do, but although the UK will accept just a certificate from the translator, other EU countries insist that the translation be authenticated by the Thai MFA.)
• you fit into one of the above categories.

She applies to the French embassy in Bangkok and EEA regulations say that the required documentation for this should be issued with the minimum of delay and be free.

Non EEA nationals cannot normally use this route to enter the country of which their EEA family member is a citizen; in your case the UK.

However, they can do so if

• the EEA family member has been working, employed or self employed, in another EEA state,
• they have been living there with them and
• they are now returning to the EEA national's home state.

This is known as the Surinder Singh route, named after a case in the ECJ.

If you wife follows the UK settlement visa route, I can see a problem:

At the moment I am seemingly without a resident country, spending (nearly) six months in Thailand, four in France and two in the UK.

Although there is no hard and fast rule on time spent out of the country, when your wife applies for FLR after 30 months in the UK she will need to show that she is a UK resident; i.e. the UK is her main country of residence. If you and she continue to follow that pattern, she may have difficulty in so doing!

She would certainly never meet the residential requirements for naturalisation as British and a British passport (maximum of 270 days out of the UK in the last three years with no more than 90 days in the final year).

Edited December 31, 2013 by 7by7

[gprit]

Excellent reply as always - thank you.

The last point should not be a problem as if we can get into the UK via the French route we would be spending around 8 months in Uk and 4 months in France.

One query:

However, they can do so if

• the EEA family member has been working, employed or self employed, in another EEA state,
• they have been living there with them and

Obviously a) I would not have been working there as I am effectively retired.

how long would they have needed o have lived there with me....eg would the 90 schengen visa be enough time?

[7by7]

For your wife to follow the Surinder Singh route from France into the UK then you, the British national, must have been working, employed or self employed, in France and she living there with you.

If you haven't been working in France then she doesn't qualify for this and will have to use the UK immigration rules.

Time wise there is no official minimum, but she will need to show that you were genuinely living and working in France, not just there to get around the UK immigration rules.

therefore UKV&I expect you to have been doing so for at least three months.

Remember, if she is travelling with or to join you in France then her initial visa will be free and if you are or will be exercising an economic treaty right in France (one of those listed in my previous) then once in France she can have it extended without cost under the EEA regulations.

I'm not sure about the French procedure for this; check with the French embassy.

[gprit]

Remember, if she is travelling with or to join you in France then her initial visa will be free and if you are or will be exercising an economic treaty right in France (one of those listed in my previous) then once in France she can have it extended without cost under the EEA regulations.

How will her Visa be free if she is travelling with me or to join me in France. We are travelling together (hopefully) in March via Schengen Visa. How would she travel with initial visa free?

I said previously that I am effectively retired. Not quite true - I still design and change websites for clients, so if I registered the business in France, the fact I can work from anywhere shouldn't matter...and I would pass the 'working' test(!?)

Quite a minefield isn't it?

[7by7]

The EEA freedom of movement regulations mean that if a qualifying family member, which a spouse is, is travelling to an EEA country, other than that of which the EEA national is a citizen, with or to join that EEA national family member then

• most of the questions and required documents don't apply (the application form will show which questions she has to answer and which can be ignored),
• the visa should be issued with the minimum of delay and
• it must be free (although some countries charge a 'handling fee; not sure how they get away with that!).

See 'Applying for a visa' on this page from the EU Commission.

You being self employed in France and her living with you for at least three months does mean that she could use the Surinder Singh route into the UK. But you would have to prove you were legally self employed in France; which, I assume, means registering as such with the French tax authorities and submitting proper tax returns to them as and when required.

[7by7]

It's been hinted at, but not actually mentioned, so I should add that if your wife follows the Surinder Singh route into the UK from France then none of the UK settlement visa requirements will apply to her. E.g.:

• no English test needed;
• no TB certificate required;
• no financial requirement, though you should be able to show that she can be supported and accommodated without becoming a burden upon public funds.

Once in the UK she should apply for a residence card. This is not compulsory, but is useful as it will show that she is lawfully resident in the UK and so can, if she wishes, work, obtain NHS treatment etc.. After living in the UK for 5 years she can apply for permanent residence.

[gprit]

The EEA freedom of movement regulations mean that if a qualifying family member, which a spouse is.....

Gosh - if I am reading this correctly, if I had waited until after we were married (I submitted Schengen Visa application in her current maiden name), I could have avoided getting an Attestation d'accueil, Bank Attestation letters ...Confirmed Air Travel etc?

[7by7]

Correct; and it would have been free.

[MaprangHolmes]

If I have read it correctly the Spanish charge a £17 service charge for something that should be free! and £14.80 to send your passport back where the post office charge £6.22

[gprit]

What is this EEA Visa called as I didn't see it on TLS (Agens for French Embassy). Is there a list of documents somewhere (from Thailand to France)?

thanks

[Rob180]

What is this EEA Visa called as I didn't see it on TLS (Agens for French Embassy). Is there a list of documents somewhere (from Thailand to France)?

thanks

Hi, my wife sat the English Test at Vantage Siam in October so I can tell you exactly what's involved. The videos you see on You Tube (which look easy because they are face to face) are the way the test used to be done.......the tests are now all done on computers, which of course is ridiculous as many people have never even used a computer. Also, the voices that will be heard in English from the computer are not easy for a Thai to understand because there are so many different accents in the UK. If you are from Scotland or Wales and your accent is the only one your wife hears regularly, she will not find it easy to understand the accents in this test. This is what happened with my wife............I am Scottish and she understands me fine mostly, but the English accents in the Test sounded completely different to what she was used to, hence she failed part of the test and had to resit it. Prior to resitting she did the 3 day Prep Course which cost £150, plus another £150 fee for the resit test.

The UKBA require only A1 level to be achieved in speaking and listening but as 7by7 said, her reading and writing will also be tested, which of course is pointless and just a commercial money making exercise as a score of ZERO won't affect what's require by UKBA.. Whoever heard of a Test where the score you achieve means nothing??? Only in Thailand!!

The Test Fee is £150 and the 3 day Prep Course is £150. If you just book her onto the Prep Course with Test it will cost you £300 and she will definitely pass at A1 minimum. If you don't go for the Prep Course and she fails the total cost will be £450 plus expenses for a 2nd visit to Bangkok ( Test £150, Prep Course £150, Resit Test £150)

Unless your wife's English is very good, I personally would recommend she does the 3 day course first, because it is virtually guaranteed she will pass and the total cost won't exceed £300, and a further test fee of £150 and more expenses to stay in Bangkok will be avoided !

If she passes all 4 categfories at A1 or better she will receive a certificate from Cambridge University about 2-3 weeks after sitting the Test. If she only passes speaking and listening she will not get the certificate, but the test reports showing she passed at A1 are all that the UKBA require.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Rob180

[gprit]

Thanks for the practicalities of the test - good feedback. I am Welsh(!) but don't really have a Welsh accent.

At the moment I am taking all counsel, and my fiancee is going through all the sample tests that are available on sevaral websites.

We live in Udon Thani, and also have a young baby, so it is not easy to spend 3 days prep in Bangkok (for which of course we have to pay for hotels/air fares)...unless of course they can do this online - I'll check.

[7by7]

What is this EEA Visa called as I didn't see it on TLS (Agens for French Embassy). Is there a list of documents somewhere (from Thailand to France)?

thanks

The UK calls them EEA Family Permits. The rules are the same for all EEA states, but different states have different procedures for dealing with applications.

I understand that for a Schengen state one first applies for a standard Schengen visa, stating that one's intention is to live in the state with one's EEA national family member. Then, once there, one applies for a residence card.

But the French embassy should be able to tell you more.

[gprit]

Referring back to Post #16 can I ask three supplementary questions.

1) The marriage certificate will be in Thai. I can get this translated into English by a certified translator BUT I have read somewhere that it also has to be certified as a true copy by the Thai Consulate (in the same way as the Affirmation to Marry was), Is this correct?

2) If using this method of entry into France is there a maximum stay time?

3) To use this method who does one apply to? The French Agency TLS site does not seem to cover this and they do not seem aware of it / how to apply.

Applied for normal Schengen Visa yesterday (as it had all been aranged before I knew the above!) so may not need to go down this route, but am making a backup plan if refused.

thanks

[7by7]

1) For UK purposes a certificate by the translatio0n bureau is sufficient.

However, the Schengen states, of which France is one, do require the translation be certified by the Thai MFA.

2) Her initial visa will, I understand, be valid for 90 days; but the spouse of an EEA national can remain in France for as long as their spouse does; as long as the EEA national is exercising an economic treaty right. Though I believe that they should register in some way with the French authorities. The French embassy, not TLS, should be able to advise you on this.

3) She applies for a Schengen visa in the normal way. The application form has various questions marked *. She should ignore those questions.

But:-

All of this only applies for a qualifying family member. A wife is obviously such, but a fiancée isn't.

As you are not yet married, none of this will apply to her until you are.

[gprit]

Thanks - just making a backup plan...as we are to be married before the end of January (trip is planned mid March), so if 'normal/full' visa refused I know all the facts!!

We would only be there 90 days anyway...just wanted to make sure it wasn't 30 days!

I think I am correct in stating the certification by Thai MFA can be done via third party, as it would be a pain to have to go from Udon Thani to Bangkok for this (and btw it is WAY out of town....)

but the process was quick and straightforward yesterday when submitting Affirmation to Marry for authentication..

[gprit]

"The application form has various questions marked *."

I didn't see any asterisks in teh lists of documents required, as issued by TLS Agent for French Embassy (Family and Friends Visa)

AM I missing a different application type?

.

[7by7]

This is the Schengen visa application form.

Although I arrived at it via TLS in Bangkok, it is a standard form.

You will see that some questions are marked *.

You will see the note

* The fields marked with * do not need to be filled in by family members of EU, EEA or CH citizens (spouse, child or dependent ascendant) while exercising their right to free movement.
Family members of EU, EEA or CH citizens shall present documents to prove this relationship and fill in fields no 34 and 35.

Obviously, I'd have thought, if an applicant doesn't need to answer a specific question then they also don't need to supply any documents to support the answer they haven't given!

However, the layout of the TLS website can be confusing to the uninitiated.

What you need to do is click on 'Family, private visit' and then on 'Visiting a relative who is an E.U. citizen or E.U. citizen's spouse' and then 'Short stay' or 'long stay' as appropriate.

Even then, not all the documents listed will be relevant to and so required from everyone.

[gprit]

Thanks - yes one would assume that about documents.

Trouble is that when you register on TLS for Family visit it generates a list of the documents required - and doesn't seem to make provision if entry is being sought via this method.

Not sure they would process if several things were missing.