Pro-govt Red Shirts to counter 'Bangkok shutdown'

[Ricardo]

The level of chaos presently seen in Bangkok could have been avoided if the PTP had paid attention to the signal associated with the king and queen moving to Hua Hin at the end of July when the debate regarding amnesty grew more heated. Now the nation is paying for this oversight.

This is true as far as it goes but there is a far more cogent element in play here: the Big Fat 2.2 Trillion Baht Infrastructure Loan AND WHO gets to eat it and WHEN.

If all parties to this monumental graft, patronage and corruption HOG-OUT had been issued their invitations and place cards to the feast, the PTP (yellows) would have had a much weaker platform.

The Thaksinistas chose to act like this was to be a business deal. They'd get the loan and the PTP and the lessor political factions would be left to feed off the crumbs, scraps and partially gnawed bones of the remains.

Thailand is a nation-state, a political entity. It is NOT a commercial enterprise.

A Nation State is more effectively governed by compromise and mutually beneficial compromises that (above all else) keep "peace in the valley".

The astronomical venality and artless finesse of Peua Thai's greedier gobble-hoggs when they took charge of this omnibus amnesty/loan fiasco is what blew this deal.

Even in a winner-take-all situation you always have to leave some cake for the other guy.

Failure to leave him a nice cut UNITES his forces and his resolve.

They failed to finesse.

As is this failure was not enough, Peua Thai threw in the premature amnesty mess. Had IT passed, it would have resulted in a de facto creation of a political class immune to criminal indictment. This was just too much for everyone. Even some Reds !

Politics is about the art of negotiated settlement.

Had they accepted that deal, Peua Thai would have been left PTP nothing but crumbs and begging.

Now we have THIS.

Ad the very real possibility that a World Bank, already wary of the legitimate status of Thailand lermight delay this loan in anticipation of greater stability.

Bankers are rarely in a rush.

And here's why ?

No stability = diminished investment = smaller tax base = fewer wage/tax slaves to pay the interest on the loan

"a World Bank, already wary of the legitimate status of Thailand might delay this loan"

IIRC the infrastructure-loan was to be financed totally from within Thailand, without recourse to external sources, according to the government.

I know it seems unlikely, and the government has trouble even selling bonds to help short-term-finance the BAAC payments under the rice-scheme, but that's what they claimed ... perhaps delusional, or perhaps yet another 'white lie' ?

[Yunla]

Yunla, I have always enjoyed your posts on TV so I want to ask you whether your group ever considered non-progressive social thinking as what I see in Thailand today is not just force against progressive change but an attempt to turn the clock back to at least pre-1932 times.

Thankyou for your compliment. My own opinions having studied latticework of available data, is that there is some real evidence on a global level of concerted desovereignisation, deindustrialisation, and destabilisation, of regression - beyond what would be naturally occurring and especially as it goes against the natural trend of industrial development and individual/national empowerment which was seen in some places in the mid-late 20thC. Its an enormous subject though. Easy to misread too, and I am going to remain silent on my conclusions, lol.

If this kind of regressive skullduggery applies here re; reverting to pre-1932 in Thailand I can not say, and I don't want to speculate on it really. What seems more obvious and relevant is that you are totally correct that they are currently moving backwards more than forwards here (imho). Many Thai people have often told me that they are "sick of the whole red/yellow thing" and yet here it is again in the streets and in this topic, flaring up again. Just the same as before, but I feel perhaps worse this time. On a personal level I see both camps blowing a bugle for the same thing, yet fighting about it too, which is very very odd. I think Constitutional Monarchy / Democratic-parliament type systems are very good as a way to preserve tradition and sense of patriotic pride, while providing a template for debate. These systems offer the 'new' while preserving the 'old'. So I don't see the problem with the actual system itself, only that it is not regulated correctly to make it function better - which would enrich the nation and everyone in it. And the question is really, why not. And for that one, I'm really at a loss.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Yunla

[NanLaew]

Problems in this paradise started the day Thailand was "colonised" by the thai chinese. Period.

You always know someone who has attained Nirvana in their quest for Thainess by the way they ascribe any and all of Thailand's problems to those pesky, interfering non-Thai buggers.... same as a truly Thai person does.

[NanLaew]

Problems in this paradise started the day Thailand was "colonised" by the thai chinese. Period.

You are short on history. The Chinese have been here for hundreds of years, participating and contributing to the Thai economy.

Nah... Thailand has been colonized by American TV/movies and by Steve Jobs (R.I.P.)

"The Chinese have been here for hundreds of years" => colonized nevertheless

"... participating and contributing to the Thai economy." => contributed also to the arrogance of the Thai people and this "me first" and "my sh*t don't stink" attitude

Yes! I also struggled with the Thainess conundrum and should I be like the bamboo and sway in the wind or should I stand on more civilized, western principles.

Then I bought a (locally made) Fortuner and the decision was a lot easier.

[MaxLee]

Showdown Bangkok,.... countdown!!!!

[Smokemachine]

Problems can all be solved within Parliament, and by essential urgent augmentation of the current Parliamentary profile, achieved by high-level State discussion between the various modules of State. There is no further need for reds yellows pinks or greens to 'Hit The Streets'. We all know what everybody wants from each social group. The problem is that the current Parliamentary build is not customised to Thailand's specific problems re; corruption and lopsided underclass voting block. The solution in /macro-sentence ; greatly restricting PM/ruling party powers, making the PM and ruling-party position into an honourable but decorative title, where you get to be Boss and feel all 'Facey' but at the same time you are essentially doing State Events / foreign dinners / hand-shaking - you become the figurehead on the prow of the Democratic ship - but you are not steering it without clear debate-based Parliamentary consensus, and enacting a stricter consensus-directive on all Bills, and creating an external Parliamentary Watchdog run by Legal and other other high-State sovereign modules - this Watchdog's primary objective is the strict monitoring of policy-queueing systems - where policies that are Good For Thailand are green-lighted and go to the front of the line, policies that are okay but not priority are marked with a semi-tick and are put mid-queue and thereupon will eventually receive intense cross-party debate & never leave the floor of debate until there is consensus at which point the Watchdog will re-examine the agreed nexus-point and greenlight it based (again) on the Good For Thailand primary objective, and thirdly all policies that are entirely criminal or self-enriching (Thaksin Passport policy) would be marked with a red cross by the Watchdog, blocked from the debating floor, and sent to walk home barefoot while being laughed at.

Re; Corruption. The above system can filter out internal corruption, which always dies when it is exposed to enough debate and scrutiny. It can also achieve consensus on the best model for establishing a permanent and ironshod Corruption Agency, and funding thereof, to monitor corruption in State, business and official modules across Thailand. Obviously, lowering corruption slightly is the main goal. Nobody expects miracles.

Why this is ontopic is that the pointless street action is gearing up for another long hot summer, and while I personally do pray daily that nobody will receive so much as a stubbed toe in the whole situation, the actual point is that its pointless, and the whole problem can be solved by repairs to the existing Parliamentary system, and within said system.

Problems can all be solved within Parliament?

If can be done, things wouldn't be happened in the current situation.

The YL govt is insisting according to their own wishes. The laws suit them, they are fine. The laws are not favor to them, change it.

It's like a fixed soccer match. (fixed parliament)

The referee is also a member of their team (YL govt).

The opp team will keep losing in the matches as the referee is always in favor with his own mates. (ptp)

So the opp team has enough and quit playing with them.

Again YL team agree to rematch. (new election)

All the opp football fans, football lovers, football associations came out to protest.

All demand to REFORM FIRST (change the fixed referee, change the rules and regulations),

making sure everyone is going to see a real fair game.

Whoever win take the cup.

Happy and satisfaction for all.

[metisdead]

Yet another post with a link to the corruption transparency website has been removed. Just how many times does this need to be posted to prove your point. Continued postings of this could be construed as spamming.

[hellodolly]

The level of chaos presently seen in Bangkok could have been avoided if the PTP had paid attention to the signal associated with the king and queen moving to Hua Hin at the end of July when the debate regarding amnesty grew more heated. Now the nation is paying for this oversight.

This is true as far as it goes but there is a far more cogent element in play here: the Big Fat 2.2 Trillion Baht Infrastructure Loan AND WHO gets to eat it and WHEN.

If all parties to this monumental graft, patronage and corruption HOG-OUT had been issued their invitations and place cards to the feast, the PTP (yellows) would have had a much weaker platform.

The Thaksinistas chose to act like this was to be a business deal. They'd get the loan and the PTP and the lessor political factions would be left to feed off the crumbs, scraps and partially gnawed bones of the remains.

Thailand is a nation-state, a political entity. It is NOT a commercial enterprise.

A Nation State is more effectively governed by compromise and mutually beneficial compromises that (above all else) keep "peace in the valley".

The astronomical venality and artless finesse of Peua Thai's greedier gobble-hoggs when they took charge of this omnibus amnesty/loan fiasco is what blew this deal.

Even in a winner-take-all situation you always have to leave some cake for the other guy.

Failure to leave him a nice cut UNITES his forces and his resolve.

They failed to finesse.

As is this failure was not enough, Peua Thai threw in the premature amnesty mess. Had IT passed, it would have resulted in a de facto creation of a political class immune to criminal indictment. This was just too much for everyone. Even some Reds !

Politics is about the art of negotiated settlement.

Had they accepted that deal, Peua Thai would have been left PTP nothing but crumbs and begging.

Now we have THIS.

Ad the very real possibility that a World Bank, already wary of the legitimate status of Thailand lermight delay this loan in anticipation of greater stability.

Bankers are rarely in a rush.

And here's why ?

No stability = diminished investment = smaller tax base = fewer wage/tax slaves to pay the interest on the loan

A Nation State is more effectively governed by compromise and mutually beneficial compromises that (above all else) keep "peace in the valley".

The astronomical venality and artless finesse of Peua Thai's greedier gobble-hoggs when they took charge of this omnibus amnesty/loan fiasco is what blew this deal.

When a government reaches the point where they have the servants needed to accomplish what they want to do they cease to even listen to ideas that in any way do not agree 100% with their goals.

Such is the situation we have here in Thailand. The PTP shut down debate as it is a waste of their time they know what they are going tio do and are unwilling to even listen to other points of view. They failed to realize that the citizens might not appreciate this directorial style of ruling and come forth to let them know so.

Any government that maintains the ability to command their members how to vote even if it goes against their conscience is wrong.

[fab4]

I'm puzzled by your links - they basically say the group of 40 Senators boycotted the debate. I'm sorry but I don't regard boycotting a debate a legitimate debating technique especially in a supposedly responsible position such as the Senate.

Can you tell me what happened to the Amnesty Bill? - it was rejected wasn't it and the PTP said it wouldn't be revived? Of course this wasn't good enough for Khun Mark.

Oh No, those dastardly PTP MP's will re submit the bill as soon as our backs are turned. How we going to stop it? I know, lets boycott the elections and put all our weight and money behind suthep and his unelected council. That'll show them!

More of fab4's fabrications and he even has gone so far as putting words in Abihists mouth!

How ever you try to divert the topic it is clear that the only reason the reds are gathering is to counter the anti-government protestors, to confront, to agitate and to cause disruption. They intend to be provocative to the point of inciting violence as it has been clearly demonstrated already.

How dare I presume to put words into the sainted one, khun marks mouth.

I look forward to your apology for once again accusing me of lying, completely without substance.

THE YINGLUCK government has agreed to withdraw the amnesty bill should the Senate veto the move, amid growing civic pressure, which has paralysed traffic in some parts of Bangkok and upcountry.

Pheu Thai Party secretary-general Phumtham Wechayachai announced yesterday that if the Senate, which convenes on Monday, kills the bill, the Pheu Thai-led government will not seek to make any revision to the bill and resubmit it. Moreover, it will also withdraw all six amnesty draft bills. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Govt-agrees-to-withdraw-bill--if-rejected-by-Senat-30218914.html

“We cannot trust the government and their words until this law is withdrawn from parliament. We will stay until that happens,” former premier Abhisit Vejjajiva, leader of the opposition Democrat Party, said in a speech to protesters at the Democracy Monument. http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1348999/thai-senate-reject-controversial-amnesty-bill-says-speaker

Commenting on a Red Shirt plan to rally between 18-20 November, Abhisit said that he is not clear about their intention. However, he is concerned about expressions of support for the amnesty bill despite the government vowing to drop the legislation on Monday.

He claimed that Red Shirts will agitate for the return of former Prime Minister Thaksin

Shinawatra. This, he says, raises questions about whether the amnesty bill will be resurrected after 180 days of suspension. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Abhisit-fears-resurrected-amnesty-bill-30219676.html

Edited January 12, 2014 by fab4

[KimoMax]

UDD going against their own words that they would not confront or stage Rally's in or near Sutheps' opposition Rally's.

Friday was a prime example of how the two sides emotions will flare up out of controlif they rally near each other.

Edited January 12, 2014 by KimoMax

[Donnie Brasco]

When a government reaches the point where they have the servants needed to accomplish what they want to do they cease to even listen to ideas that in any way do not agree 100% with their goals.

Such is the situation we have here in Thailand. The PTP shut down debate as it is a waste of their time they know what they are going tio do and are unwilling to even listen to other points of view. They failed to realize that the citizens might not appreciate this directorial style of ruling and come forth to let them know so.

Any government that maintains the ability to command their members how to vote even if it goes against their conscience is wrong.

Thank you for your point.

I believe we are on the same page, however my choice NOT to have followed through and come to your conclusions was intended.

I have faith in the parliamentary system; even one such as this with a majority coalition.

Additional refinements need be in place however.

I DID point out that Puea Thai's failure to finesse proved fatal.

And it is this failure to finesse that will likely be matched with some sort of security action on the part of the military at the moment we witness escalated physical confrontation between these two groups.

Indeed there are adherents in BOTH groups who'd like nothing more that to see just enough street violence to prompt such measures.

To suggest that parliamentary majorities inevitably lead to the ham-fisted dictates you and I find so unhelpful would be a slur on the parliamentary system.

I prefer to believe that a timely intervention and a finesse by majority parliamentarians with the country's best interests at heart could have headed off this volatile situation.

Suthep's street action (even after being dragged through the alphabet soup it acquires no legitimacy that I can see) and Peua Thais greed and arrogance both bear the branding of political infantilism. The failure to negotiate this 2.2 trillion baht graft-feast was just as egregious a failure.

As for arrogance, stoopidity, greedy ace and willful blindness, both sides share the guilt.

Seems a rather common tragic flaw among Thailand's elites.

Wasn't there another Thaksin much earlier in Thailand's history who suffered a similar believe in human flight and ended up being bagged and clubbed or as other historians like to believe, exiled to a monastery ?

A little finesse here would have kept peace in the valley.

In the American system finesse is the purview of the Washington lobbyist industry.

Both systems need Herculean reform.

Anyway, (*sigh*) tomorrow is another day ;-$

[Smokemachine]

I think the reds should better don't meet the anti-govt. Today the numbers could be the same as the first rally or even more.

Anti-govt protesters are increasing rapidly.

Pray for everyone safety for tomorrow

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=729191250433028&set=a.710968452255308.1073741827.704718532880300&type=1&theater

Edited January 12, 2014 by Smokemachine

[Donnie Brasco]

The level of chaos presently seen in Bangkok could have been avoided if the PTP had paid attention to the signal associated with the king and queen moving to Hua Hin at the end of July when the debate regarding amnesty grew more heated. Now the nation is paying for this oversight.

This is true as far as it goes but there is a far more cogent element in play here: the Big Fat 2.2 Trillion Baht Infrastructure Loan AND WHO gets to eat it and WHEN.

If all parties to this monumental graft, patronage and corruption HOG-OUT had been issued their invitations and place cards to the feast, the PTP (yellows) would have had a much weaker platform.

The Thaksinistas chose to act like this was to be a business deal. They'd get the loan and the PTP and the lessor political factions would be left to feed off the crumbs, scraps and partially gnawed bones of the remains.

Thailand is a nation-state, a political entity. It is NOT a commercial enterprise.

A Nation State is more effectively governed by compromise and mutually beneficial compromises that (above all else) keep "peace in the valley".

The astronomical venality and artless finesse of Peua Thai's greedier gobble-hoggs when they took charge of this omnibus amnesty/loan fiasco is what blew this deal.

Even in a winner-take-all situation you always have to leave some cake for the other guy.

Failure to leave him a nice cut UNITES his forces and his resolve.

They failed to finesse.

As is this failure was not enough, Peua Thai threw in the premature amnesty mess. Had IT passed, it would have resulted in a de facto creation of a political class immune to criminal indictment. This was just too much for everyone. Even some Reds !

Politics is about the art of negotiated settlement.

Had they accepted that deal, Peua Thai would have been left PTP nothing but crumbs and begging.

Now we have THIS.

Ad the very real possibility that a World Bank, already wary of the legitimate status of Thailand lermight delay this loan in anticipation of greater stability.

Bankers are rarely in a rush.

And here's why ?

No stability = diminished investment = smaller tax base = fewer wage/tax slaves to pay the interest on the loan

"a World Bank, already wary of the legitimate status of Thailand might delay this loan"

IIRC the infrastructure-loan was to be financed totally from within Thailand, without recourse to external sources, according to the government.

I know it seems unlikely, and the government has trouble even selling bonds to help short-term-finance the BAAC payments under the rice-scheme, but that's what they claimed ... perhaps delusional, or perhaps yet another 'white lie' ?

Hmmm. I did not know that.

This "internal financing" usually means permission from Basle to adjust one's fractional reserve ratio.

The US dollar as the world's reserve currency needs no one's permission but as far as I can puzzle it out, the creation on wealth from thin air by any government other than the US needs approval.

But like everyone else, I am just guessing here.

[LuckyLew]

Thida sure is pleasing to the eyes almost as sweet looking as Yaowapha

[whybother]

RT@tulsathit: RT @KribBKK: The irony… TR @can_nw “Jeng Dokjik” is leading Reds in nonthaburi to protect provincial hall against potential arson.

Too funny.