Visa requirements for non-EEA spouse of Irish national?

[irishjj]

Hi all

I'm an Irish citizen and my wife is coming to stay with me on a tourist visa (for Ireland only) soon (we will not break the conditions of her travel visa). I have heard that we can enter the UK (e.g. via Northern Ireland) without a visa due to the fact that I am not a British citizen. I think this is under the Directive on Free Movement (2004/38/EC). Apparently she will be able to apply for a UK residence card if I am working in Northern Ireland (after being in the UK for 3 months).

Please note that we will drive across the border into the UK and my wife won't have ANY form of UK visa before this. I know that most people will apply for an EEA family permit (which is issued by the UK government) however, apparently this isn't necessary.


Does anyone know about this? Can this work?

Thanks!
OP

[7by7]

As you are Irish you are an EEA national and so strictly speaking she can enter any other EEA state, e.g. the UK, without obtaining a visa in advance; provided she is travelling with or to join you and she can show that she is your wife, e.g. with a marriage certificate (if you married in Thailand you will need a certified English translation).

See 'Arriving at the border without an entry visa' on this page.

However, as that page says it is better to obtain the necessary visa, for the UK an EEA family permit, in advance; particulalrly as it will be quick, easy and free to obtain one.

This will eliminate possible delays whilst you argue the rules with inexperienced immigration officers who may not be fully aware of the rules. Although there are no fixed border controls between the RoI and NI, both UK and RoI immigration do carry out random checks at land crossings and routine checks at sea ports and airports. These are often carried out by Garda officers in the Republic, police officers in the UK; who are even less likely to be fully aware of the rules.

Also, once in Northern Ireland If you want to then travel to somewhere else in the UK, or if doing so directly from the Republic, whether doing so by land or sea carriers will want to see her passport and visa to check that she is legally in, or can enter, the UK. They are not immigration officials and so even less likely to be fully aware of the rules and so may refuse to carry her without any UK entry clearance.

If she then wants to work in the UK she will need to provide evidence of her ability to do so legally; employers are even less likely to be aware of the rules.

Get her an EEA family permit.

However, she must apply for it in her country of residence, so cannot apply in Ireland if there as a visitor but should apply in Bangkok before she leaves.

Note that if you are a dual Irish/British citizen then you cannot use your Irish citizenship and the EEA regulations to gain entry to the UK for her and vice/versa. So she will need to apply, and pay for, for the appropriate visa to enter the UK or else she will be there illegally.

She does not need to apply for a residence card once in the UK, but it is advisable to do so. Her EEA family permit will be valid for 6 months and once that has expired a residence card will be proof that she is living in the UK legally should she want to leave the UK and return, work etc.

Edited to add links.

Edited January 12, 2014 by 7by7

[irishjj]

Thanks a lot for your reply.

Is it not possible to apply for an EEA Family Permit for the UK from any British Embassy, as long as you are legally (which I guess will include a tourist visa) in the country?

The problem with not applying before she comes to Ireland is that she has already got the Irish visitor visa and will leave in the next few days. Hotel rooms for the trip in Ireland have been booked too

[7by7]

it is not a question of whether she is legally in Ireland; it is a question of whether she is legally resident in Ireland. As she will be there with a visit visa, she wont be. Whether or not she can convert that visit visa to Irish residence whilst in Ireland, I don't know. If she can obtain Irish residence then she can apply for her UK EEA family permit in Ireland.

UK visas and entry permits should be applied for in the applicant's country of residence; unless there are serious and compelling compassionate reasons for applying elsewhere.

The UK is not alone in this; most other countries, certainly other EEA states, are the same.

So if she does not have time to apply in Bangkok, or cannot obtain Irish residence then you will have to go with the option in your OP and see if she can enter the UK without an EEA family permit; but be prepared for a lot of questioning to establish her right to enter the UK if stopped at the border and possibly also when she applies for her UK residence card.

[irishjj]

It seems that this is wrong.

See the following:

EUN2.5 What did the ECJ judgment on Metock say in relation to issuing EEA family permits?

The ECJ judgment on Metock in July 2008 prohibited Member States from having a general requirement for non EEA spouses of EEA nationals to be lawfully resident in another EEA member state before they can benefit from a right to reside under the EU Free Movement of Persons Directive. Therefore, we can no longer apply the lawful residence requirement (which was based on the case of Akrich) or our own domestic legislation (the Immigration Rules) to family members seeking first admission to the EEA from outside the EEA.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/guidance/ecg/eun/eun2/

I know that most visa have this requirement, however, the EEAFP seems to be different!

[7by7]

The Metlock Judgement refers to the exercising of freedom of movement rights. It means that the non EEA national family member of an EEA national does not need to have legally lived in one EEA state before they can exercise freedom of movement rights within the rest of the EEA.

Nothing to do with where one applies for the appropriate visa or entry permit.

For example, all Schengen states require visa applications be made in the applicant's country of residence; whether or not the applicant is the family member of an EEA national.

However, if she does wish to apply for an EEA family permit at the British embassy in Dublin, it wont cost you anything even if they refuse her.

Please let us know how she gets on.

Edited January 13, 2014 by 7by7

[7by7]

I have to offer you my most sincere apologies.

Having checked further I have discovered that whilst you can only apply for most types of UK entry clearance in your country of residence, there are three exceptions:

• a visit visa
• a Tier 5 (Temporary worker - creative and sporting) visa
• an EEA family permit.

So I was wrong and she can apply for an EEA family permit in Dublin whilst in Ireland as a visitor.

Once again, my most sincere apologies for the wrong information.

Am now eating a large portion of humble pie!

[Seekingasylum]

An EEA national can exercise his right to free movement within the EEA at any time. This is unfettered. His wife is also permitted to accompany him. If it were right that in this case his wife could only apply for a family permit from within her own country of residence then the EEA national's right to free movement during the course of their visit to Ireland would be curtailed. That is why national law and it's operation cannot apply to EEA nationals and their foreign spouses who wish to exercise their rights to free movement within the EEA.

The British embassy, Dublin must issue the family permit upon application.To refuse it on the basis that Ireland was merely a visit destination and not the usual place of residence is quite unlawful.

7by7 is quite wrong here and the OP should proceed with confidence.

[7by7]

Indeed; see my post above yours.

[irishjj]

This is even better news hehe.

Great. Thanks for all your help guys/gals!

Best wishes

CC

[Jay Sata]

As I've said before Ireland offers a lot more in terms of getting your spouse home than the UK.

You won't have to jump through all the language tests or minimum income threshold of £18,600.

As you no doubt know Irishjj ,you also do not have to pay all those nasty fees the UK government impose on spouse migrants.

Some applicants are not required to pay a fee. This includes visa-required spouses and certain family members of EEA citizens (including Irish nationals) provided that proof of the relationship is submitted with the application.http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Visa%20Fees

You also don't need a marriage certificate. As long as you can prove you have been in a de facto relationship for two years you're home and dry.

If I may correct 7by7 ,there are no visa checks between Eire and Northern Ireland.

There are on some rare occasion's some security checks by the Garda and the Police Service of Northern Ireland but these have nothing to do with immigration. You and your wife can as you probably already know happily drive between the south and Ulster.

As in the UK the police and immigration services are different departments.

Best wishes and good luck.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Jay Sata

[a99az]

If you are from Southern Ireland you can exorcise your European Right and work in Northern Ireland or the UK. You can also take your immediate family with you (Non EEA wife and even her mother and father if they are dependent on you) Your wife will only need a visa from Thailand (free) and you should travel together to UK or N Ireland once there she can apply for a Residents Permit. You must be living and working or studying in that country to do this.

We have just done this from Spain where I worked as a British citizen and after 3 months we went to the UK where we now live.

[irlguy1]

Why is your wife only coming on a tourist visa?

She can get a D visa and stay permanently.

Do you plan in shipping her back after a few months ?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jay Sata]

Why is your wife only coming on a tourist visa?

She can get a D visa and stay permanently.

Do you plan in shipping her back after a few months ?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was thinking the same.

However she now has a 90 day C visa so she will have to make an application for a D spouse visa to INIS at Burgh Quay in Dublin or if outside Dublin via a local Garda station. Technically she will be illegal once her 90 days have expired but as long as you make the application before expiry of her C visa there is no problem apart from the fact she cannot work.

As I've said before there are no fees!

Edited January 14, 2014 by Jay Sata

[irishjj]

Hi all

Thanks for all the great comments!

The reason why we chose the visit visa © was because it didn't have that many requirements. I don't have a lot of money in the bank and I don't have my own accommodation in Ireland. I was worried that a rejection for that visa would cause issues in the future. Therefore, I think that the EEA family permit to the UK (Northern Ireland) is the best option.

She will still be able to get Irish citizenship via this method in 3 years and the UK visa should be issued from Dublin, with minimal fees (55 pounds) for the residence card etc. As long as we can make it to 3 years everything will be fine as she will be eligible to apply for Irish citizenship (although it takes forever to process these applications apparently!)

Thanks again for all your help

PS: I'm not wanting to ship her back...she's been by my side for over 4 years...past the return date.

[irlguy1]

Hi all

Thanks for all the great comments!

The reason why we chose the visit visa © was because it didn't have that many requirements. I don't have a lot of money in the bank and I don't have my own accommodation in Ireland. I was worried that a rejection for that visa would cause issues in the future. Therefore, I think that the EEA family permit to the UK (Northern Ireland) is the best option.

She will still be able to get Irish citizenship via this method in 3 years and the UK visa should be issued from Dublin, with minimal fees (55 pounds) for the residence card etc. As long as we can make it to 3 years everything will be fine as she will be eligible to apply for Irish citizenship (although it takes forever to process these applications apparently!)

Thanks again for all your help

PS: I'm not wanting to ship her back...she's been by my side for over 4 years...past the return date.

Can't get citizenship in 3 yrs btw

It's five.

I got my wife the full D visa on a lot less paperwork than a visit visa. There are no cash requirements and you don't need your own home .

I think you may have been slightly misinformed.

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[irishjj]

It seems that you have been misinformed re: citizenship after 3 years. See this link: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP110000 re: spouse of an Irish citizen.

(i) are married to each other, have been married to each other for a period of not less than 3 years, and are living together, as attested to by affidavit submitted by the citizen to the Minister in the prescribed form, or

(ii)are civil partners of each other, have been civil partners of each other for a period of not less than 3 years, and are living together, as attested to by affidavit submitted by the citizen to the Minister in the prescribed form,

• is, in the case of a spouse, in a marriage recognised under the laws of the State as subsisting,
• had, immediately before the date of the application, a period of one year’s continuous residence in the island of Ireland,
• had, during the 4 years immediately preceding that period, a total residence in the island of Ireland amounting to 2 years

​As you can see from the above it is: 1+2=3. That 4 is irrelevant - it says: 2 years DURING the 4 years preceding that period. I have already checked this out with INIS: 3 years 'in the island of Ireland' is correct. Please note that I was and am talking about Irish citizenship - NOT UK PR.

RE: Spouse visa: I was not misinformed as I didn't ask anyone about this. My wife was able to get a visa for Ireland easily in her own right (she has had 3 visit visas for the UK in the past 4 years and provided very little in the way of documentation). The visa was granted in 6 working days. Even if she had got a spouse visa, I would have wanted to go to NI because there are a few more jobs available there at present and the costs are much lower than Dublin.

Anyways...you might want to check out the citizenship in 3 years...don't waste those extra 2 years worth of travel visas.

[Jay Sata]

Ireland has a positive attitude to spouse visas and that is reflected with no demand for application fees.

They publish results of applications on line.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Visa%20Decisions%2012-11-13%20to%2018-11-13.pdf/Files/Visa%20Decisions%2012-11-13%20to%2018-11-13.pdf

You'll see from this the success ratio is excellent.

I hope your wife is able to cope with the grey sky's and rain Irishjj.

The full details of spouse naturalisation is below. As I interpret it the minimum period of residence is three years.

Naturalisation of spouses of Irish citizens.

15A.32—(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 15, the Minister may, in his or her absolute

discretion, grant an application for a certificate of naturalisation to the non-national spouse of an Irish

citizen if satisfied that the applicant—

(a) is of full age,

(b is of good character,

© is married to that citizen for a period of not less than 3 years,

(d) is in a marriage recognised under the laws of the State as subsisting,

(e) and that citizen are living together as husband and wife and that citizen submits to the Minister

an affidavit in the prescribed form to that effect,

(f) had immediately before the date of the application a period of one year’s continuous residence

in the island of Ireland,

(g) had, during the 4 years immediately preceding that period, a total residence in the island of

Ireland amounting to 2 years,

(h) intends in good faith to continue to reside in the island of Ireland after naturalisation, and

(i) has made, either before a judge of the District Court in open court or in such manner as the

Minister, for special reasons, allows, a declaration in the prescribed manner, of fidelity to

the nation and loyalty to the State.

(2) The Minister may, in his or her absolute discretion, waive the conditions at paragraph ©, (f), (g) or (h)

of subsection (1) or any of them if satisfied that the applicant would suffer serious consequences in respect

of his or her bodily integrity or liberty if not granted Irish citizenship.

33(3) Paragraph (h) of subsection (1) shall not apply to an applicant for a certificate of naturalisation to

whom subsection (4) applies.

34(4) Any period of residence outside the island of Ireland, during which—

(a) the applicant for a certificate of naturalisation to which this section applies was married to and

living with his or her spouse, and

( that applicant’s spouse was in the public service,

shall be reckoned as a period of residence in the island of Ireland for the purposes of calculating—

(i) continuous total residence under paragraph (g) of that subsection.

Power to dispense with conditions of naturalisation in certain cases.

1635.—The Minister may, in his absolute discretion, grant an application for a certificate of naturalisation

in the following cases, although the conditions for naturalisation (or any of them) are not complied with:

(a) where the applicant is of Irish descent or Irish associations;

( where the applicant is a parent or guardian acting on behalf of a minor of Irish descent or Irish

associations;

© where the applicant is a naturalised Irish citizen acting on behalf of a minor child of the

applicant;

[(d) and (e) repealed]36

(f) where the applicant is or has been resident abroad in the public service;

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/consolidationINCA.pdf/Files/consolidationINCA.pdf

Edited January 15, 2014 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

Jay Sata, yet again you have hijacked a topic to post information which is irrelevant, inaccurate or both.

I, and others, have corrected you on many occasions, so I'm not going to bore everyone by doing so in detail here yet again.

Instead, I suggest that you read and digest the attached agreement which was signed by the Irish Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence, Mr Alan Shatter, T.D., and the UK Minister for Immigration, Mr Damien Green, M.P., in Dublin on 20 December 2011.

Ireland - UK Common Travel Area Agreement.doc

Yet again an Irish member asks about living in the UK with his Thai wife and you quote the Irish immigration rules! Why? The OP and his wife want to live in the UK; the Irish requirements for spouses are irrelevant. Unless you are suggesting he and his wife live in the RoI long enough for his wife to become an Irish citizen and then move to the UK. Clearly, from his OP, this is not what they want to do.

As his wife qualifies under the EEA rules she wont have to take any language tests and wont have to pay any fee for her EEA family permit anyway. She will have to pay £55 for her residence card; but, though recommended, that's not compulsory.

In this topic I made a major error when I said that his wife would have to apply for her EEA family permit in Bangkok. I later discovered that error, simultaneously being corrected by Seekingasylum, acknowledged it, corrected it and apologised for it.

You, on the other hand, regularly post inaccurate information in this forum and are then corrected, often by posters far more knowledgeable than I.

Do you acknowledge the inaccurate posts? No.

Do you apologise for the inaccurate posts? No.

Do you correct the inaccurate posts? No.

Instead you disappear for a few days and then come back to post the same wrong information again!

irishjj, I'm sorry for having to post the above in your topic, but this person has a history of regularly posting inaccurate information and I feel he needs to be corrected when he does so. As does anyone who posts incorrect information; including me.

It is, of course, up to you whether you follow his advice, mine, or someone else's.

[Jay Sata]

I was replying to others regarding the rules re citizenship.

If there was thread drift it was organic starting with Irlguy1 who pointed out that a D visa is a better bet.

The OP is planning to live in Eire for the three qualifying years need for citizenship.

The reason why we chose the visit visa © was because it didn't have that many requirements. I don't have a lot of money in the bank and I don't have my own accommodation in Ireland. I was worried that a rejection for that visa would cause issues in the future. Therefore, I think that the EEA family permit to the UK (Northern Ireland) is the best option.

She will still be able to get Irish citizenship via this method in 3 years and the UK visa should be issued from Dublin, with minimal fees (55 pounds) for the residence card etc. As long as we can make it to 3 years everything will be fine as she will be eligible to apply for Irish citizenship (although it takes forever to process these applications apparently!)

The thread is titled Visa requirements for non -EAA spouse of Irish national. Visa information for Eire is relevant to that heading.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

Your first post about the Irish immigration rules for spouses was before Iriguy1 posted.

The OP is not intending to live in Eire for three years, he intends to live and work in NI. Read his posts again; including the one you quoted!