Mother English,father Thai,where Should Our Baby Be Born ?

[louise]

Does anyone know the visa status of a baby born to an english mother and a thai father both living in thailand,if the baby is born in bangkok and not in the uk. hope someone can help me with this complex issue !!!! thanks louise

[leisurely]

Not sure of the visa status in that situation but a friend of my youngest daughter (and her sister) were both born in Bunrumgrad hospital to Thai dad and Brit mum, both children have UK passports and Thai ones. Why don't you phone the embassy to check?

Sorry just re read the topic title and it says where should our baby be born? In the closest hospital that you have had your ante natal care in. Don't go flying around the world trying to make sure it is born in a 'certain place'. YOu are bound to come unstuck.

Good luck.

[Neeranam]

It shouldn't be any different to having a Thai mother and British father.

My daughter has Thai and Uk passports - no problem.

[cmsally]

Your baby will get both UK and Thai nationality. 2 passports.

You can get a multiple entry lifelong visa/residency stamped in the Thai passport from British embassy and this enables them to travel Thailand -UK on Thai passport.

NB On arrival in UK they can go through UK resident/passport holders with this visa.

If I am not mistaken the dilemma comes up with the next generation ie. their children will probably lose UK nationality if not born in UK.

[Jasmine]

Our daughter was born in Bangkok and has both nationalitys and passports (Thai dad, Brit mum).

The only weird thing I remeber was that it would have cost us slightly more (aroud 4000 Baht) to have her dads name on the British Birth Certificate from the British embassy if we weren't married. If you're married it's cheaper.

This was 1999 not sure if that still stands????

[GuestHouse]

A clarification is needed.

Your child is entitled to British Nationality if you yourself were born in Britain.

If you obtained your British Nationality by birth because you were born overseas to British Parents then your child would not gain British Nationality.

Likewise, your child, if born in Thailand and receiving British Nationality from you, will not be able to pass British Nationality to its own children.

Do register the birth at the British Embassy as soon as possible, Do get a British passport for your child and Do keep the British Passport valid at all time, and, under your control.

[p1p]

In plainer language, if you wish your child to be able to pass British nationality on to their children, (born outside the UK), you should arrange to give birth in the UK. If that is not important to you, don't worry.

[sbk]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe for the baby to obtain Thai citizenship automatically the parents must be married (when the father is Thai and the mother not). Some friends of mine were not married when they had their children and told me they are having some difficulty obtaining Thai citizenship for their kids (mother Swedish, father Thai).

[too true]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe for the baby to obtain Thai citizenship automatically the parents must be married (when the father is Thai and the mother not). Some friends of mine were not married when they had their children and told me they are having some difficulty obtaining Thai citizenship for their kids (mother Swedish, father Thai).

My first son was born in Thailand in 2001 and we didn't officially get married until 2003. Never had a problem with any birth certificate or passport. Even after we had got married and then had our second child here, no one ever asked to see proof of our marriage.

However, having said that, a friend had her baby in the UK (father Thai) and when they went to the Thai embassy to register the birth they had to sign some papers first. She doesn't understand much Thai, but she signed anyway, and abracadabra she's married

[Dragonman]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe for the baby to obtain Thai citizenship automatically the parents must be married (when the father is Thai and the mother not). Some friends of mine were not married when they had their children and told me they are having some difficulty obtaining Thai citizenship for their kids (mother Swedish, father Thai).

My first son was born in Thailand in 2001 and we didn't officially get married until 2003. Never had a problem with any birth certificate or passport. Even after we had got married and then had our second child here, no one ever asked to see proof of our marriage.

However, having said that, a friend had her baby in the UK (father Thai) and when they went to the Thai embassy to register the birth they had to sign some papers first. She doesn't understand much Thai, but she signed anyway, and abracadabra she's married

Strange as sbk is correct. It is at the Home Office discretion whether to allow citizenship to children of unmarried parents, and there is a hefty non refundable application fee, and the decision can take up to 18 months. If the parents marry after birth the fast track system comes back into effect.

[too true]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe for the baby to obtain Thai citizenship automatically the parents must be married (when the father is Thai and the mother not). Some friends of mine were not married when they had their children and told me they are having some difficulty obtaining Thai citizenship for their kids (mother Swedish, father Thai).

My first son was born in Thailand in 2001 and we didn't officially get married until 2003. Never had a problem with any birth certificate or passport. Even after we had got married and then had our second child here, no one ever asked to see proof of our marriage.

However, having said that, a friend had her baby in the UK (father Thai) and when they went to the Thai embassy to register the birth they had to sign some papers first. She doesn't understand much Thai, but she signed anyway, and abracadabra she's married

Strange as sbk is correct. It is at the Home Office discretion whether to allow citizenship to children of unmarried parents, and there is a hefty non refundable application fee, and the decision can take up to 18 months. If the parents marry after birth the fast track system comes back into effect.

Very strange indeed. No one ever asked if we were married. Even when we registered his birth and put him on the tabien baan, or when we got his passport. Is it possible that they just assumed we were married? Stroke of luck I guess that my illegitimate child was granted the ultimate gift of becoming a citizen of this paradise of countries without having to "gift" any government officials...

[Jasmine]

However, having said that, a friend had her baby in the UK (father Thai) and when they went to the Thai embassy to register the birth they had to sign some papers first. She doesn't understand much Thai, but she signed anyway, and abracadabra she's married

God that must have been a shock?!!

[skylar]

As I understand it, the matter is much easier on both sides when the unmarried mother is not Thai, irrespective if she is in Thailand or the UK.

[the scouser]

It is at the Home Office discretion whether to allow citizenship to children of unmarried parents..

With regard to whether the OP's child will be British, the parents' marital status is of no consequence if it is the mother who is transmitting the nationality. The rule about parents being married is there to prevent a Brit bloke shagging his way around the world and leaving in his wake a string of children who could claim to be British.

So, providing the OP is British "otherwise than by descent", her child will automatically be British at birth.

Scouse.

[the scouser]

From the Home Office website - leaflet BN4:

2. An important change made by the 1981 Act was that since 1 January 1983 women have been able to pass on British citizenship to their children who were born outside the United Kingdom in the same way as men (but see note B ).

Note B:

B. Women can pass on their British citizenship to illegitimate children, but men cannot.

That appears to be the child's entitlement to British citizenship sorted, but I don't know whether the OP and the father have to be married for the child to be considered Thai too.

Scouse.

[Dragonman]

From the Home Office website - leaflet BN4:

2. An important change made by the 1981 Act was that since 1 January 1983 women have been able to pass on British citizenship to their children who were born outside the United Kingdom in the same way as men (but see note B ).

Note B:

B. Women can pass on their British citizenship to illegitimate children, but men cannot.

That appears to be the child's entitlement to British citizenship sorted, but I don't know whether the OP and the father have to be married for the child to be considered Thai too.

Scouse.

Yes, I forgot about this strange anomaly, which goes against current Human Rights Laws, but as far as I am aware has not been challenged, yet.( shagging ain't a good enough excuse ) With regard to the final paragraph there is no requirement for marriage in order for the child to receive Thai citizenship, whether born in Thailand or UK.

[p1p]

..... a friend had her baby in the UK (father Thai) and when they went to the Thai embassy to register the birth they had to sign some papers first. She doesn't understand much Thai, but she signed anyway, and abracadabra she's married

She needs to check with a lawyer here. If she only registered at the Thai embassy, she would not have been legally married under either Thai or British law. Both require registration at designated places and the Thai embassy is not one of them.

My first wife and I registered our marriage at the Thai embassy in London, which caused immense problems when we came to get divorced. Our marriage was not legal, so divorce was not possible! This had a major impact on all aspects, not least the children, and cost a fortune to sort out.

Suggest to her to either take legal advice, or register the marriage, under British law at a registry office.

[Dragonman]

..... a friend had her baby in the UK (father Thai) and when they went to the Thai embassy to register the birth they had to sign some papers first. She doesn't understand much Thai, but she signed anyway, and abracadabra she's married

She needs to check with a lawyer here. If she only registered at the Thai embassy, she would not have been legally married under either Thai or British law. Both require registration at designated places and the Thai embassy is not one of them.

My first wife and I registered our marriage at the Thai embassy in London, which caused immense problems when we came to get divorced. Our marriage was not legal, so divorce was not possible! This had a major impact on all aspects, not least the children, and cost a fortune to sort out.

Suggest to her to either take legal advice, or register the marriage, under British law at a registry office.

From a legal point of view this is interesting! British Law does not consider the idea of a Foreign Embassy being foreign soil, and therefore outside British Law provisions ( unless it suits the Government ) However if legal requirements regarding 15 days notification, and nowadays the necessary immigrants requirements were met, I hardly think they could consider the Thai Embassy "not recognised". Thai embassies abroad are normally recognised as legal in Thai Law for marriage registration, and I would be grateful if you would advise why your lawyer, and the Thai Authorities, considered you were not married under Thai Law. Any links someone has in order for me to update my legal records would be helpful.

[p1p]

..... a friend had her baby in the UK (father Thai) and when they went to the Thai embassy to register the birth they had to sign some papers first. She doesn't understand much Thai, but she signed anyway, and abracadabra she's married

She needs to check with a lawyer here. If she only registered at the Thai embassy, she would not have been legally married under either Thai or British law. Both require registration at designated places and the Thai embassy is not one of them.

My first wife and I registered our marriage at the Thai embassy in London, which caused immense problems when we came to get divorced. Our marriage was not legal, so divorce was not possible! This had a major impact on all aspects, not least the children, and cost a fortune to sort out.

Suggest to her to either take legal advice, or register the marriage, under British law at a registry office.

From a legal point of view this is interesting! British Law does not consider the idea of a Foreign Embassy being foreign soil, and therefore outside British Law provisions ( unless it suits the Government ) However if legal requirements regarding 15 days notification, and nowadays the necessary immigrants requirements were met, I hardly think they could consider the Thai Embassy "not recognised". Thai embassies abroad are normally recognised as legal in Thai Law for marriage registration, and I would be grateful if you would advise why your lawyer, and the Thai Authorities, considered you were not married under Thai Law. Any links someone has in order for me to update my legal records would be helpful.

Okay. Under British Marriage Law, a place has to be registered and licenced as a place to conduct and register a mariage. If it has not been so registered, any mariage conducted there is not legal unless seperately registered with the official Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages.

Under Thai law, any marriage must be registered at an Ampur office. This applies to marriages conducted in a Thai Embassy - The marriage is not considered legal until official registration has taken place at an Ampur office.

When we married, we were provided with a marriage certificate, (and certified translation) by the Thai embassy. This was more than sufficient for the Home Office and enabled my wife to get her Residency and, later become a British National.

However when we tried to divorce, the judge would not accept the certificate as legal, for the reasons stated above. The case was handed up through the legal system until a Law Lord handed down the ruling that it was not legal. (This was massively expensive!)

The Thai authorities reacted in a similar manner. (It did not help that, for various reasons, my wife had continued to use her maiden name on documents in Thailand.)

This remains the case today, unless the Thai Embassy has recently taken steps to register and become licensed as a fit place to conduct marriages. In which case, the Marriage Certificate will be English, not Thai.

[bina]

same in israel the thai embassy told me i could 'marry' my thai bf at the embassy but israel wouldnt recognize it as a 'real' marriage unless it was done and registered in thailand (or cyprus, since israel doesnt have civil marriages anyhow ).... but the 'marriage' in the embassy is a sort of promise of marriage when applying for things like if a child is born etc... go figure...once i am married in amphur etc, then i register w/israel and then am officially married in my i.d. card....

[Dragonman]

..... a friend had her baby in the UK (father Thai) and when they went to the Thai embassy to register the birth they had to sign some papers first. She doesn't understand much Thai, but she signed anyway, and abracadabra she's married

She needs to check with a lawyer here. If she only registered at the Thai embassy, she would not have been legally married under either Thai or British law. Both require registration at designated places and the Thai embassy is not one of them.

My first wife and I registered our marriage at the Thai embassy in London, which caused immense problems when we came to get divorced. Our marriage was not legal, so divorce was not possible! This had a major impact on all aspects, not least the children, and cost a fortune to sort out.

Suggest to her to either take legal advice, or register the marriage, under British law at a registry office.

From a legal point of view this is interesting! British Law does not consider the idea of a Foreign Embassy being foreign soil, and therefore outside British Law provisions ( unless it suits the Government ) However if legal requirements regarding 15 days notification, and nowadays the necessary immigrants requirements were met, I hardly think they could consider the Thai Embassy "not recognised". Thai embassies abroad are normally recognised as legal in Thai Law for marriage registration, and I would be grateful if you would advise why your lawyer, and the Thai Authorities, considered you were not married under Thai Law. Any links someone has in order for me to update my legal records would be helpful.

Okay. Under British Marriage Law, a place has to be registered and licenced as a place to conduct and register a mariage. If it has not been so registered, any mariage conducted there is not legal unless seperately registered with the official Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages.

Under Thai law, any marriage must be registered at an Ampur office. This applies to marriages conducted in a Thai Embassy - The marriage is not considered legal until official registration has taken place at an Ampur office.

When we married, we were provided with a marriage certificate, (and certified translation) by the Thai embassy. This was more than sufficient for the Home Office and enabled my wife to get her Residency and, later become a British National.

However when we tried to divorce, the judge would not accept the certificate as legal, for the reasons stated above. The case was handed up through the legal system until a Law Lord handed down the ruling that it was not legal. (This was massively expensive!)

The Thai authorities reacted in a similar manner. (It did not help that, for various reasons, my wife had continued to use her maiden name on documents in Thailand.)

This remains the case today, unless the Thai Embassy has recently taken steps to register and become licensed as a fit place to conduct marriages. In which case, the Marriage Certificate will be English, not Thai.

Thanks for details of your case which has enabled me to further study Case Law on the subject, and kept me out of my wife's hair for quite some time.

It is regrettable that the Law Lord took this stance based presumably on public policy rules and "lex domicilii'. It is in fact still the case that individual Judges and Law Lords still argue over the "lex loci celebrationis" rules as laid down by the Hague Convention. This is particularly the case nowadays where public policy on immigration overturns legislation sometimes. Private International Law, such as in your case, is an interesting and very lucrative legal speciality nowadays.

I simply do not understand the Thai Authorities reaction to the matter, although Pontius Pilate springs to mind. The vast majority of documentation I have come across clarify that there is no need to re register at an Amphur's office for the marriage to be legal under Thai Law and hence under Private International Law, and any Thai Judge would have determined the marriage legal.

Of course anyone reading this who has married at the Thai Embassy in London may wish to consider re-marrying in a Civil Ceremony which will legalize the original marriage, and legitimize any children, backdated to the date of original void marriage.

Again thanks for reminding me of the reasons I retired early from some of the crazy legal decisions.

[samran]

Thai nationality law states that if a child is born to a Thai parent, regardless of marital status, then the child is a Thai national.

This is also regardless of place of birth either, so effectively, Thai nationality may be handed down to each generation regardless of the birth place of the parent.

[sbk]

Thai nationality law states that if a child is born to a Thai parent, regardless of marital status, then the child is a Thai national.

This is also regardless of place of birth either, so effectively, Thai nationality may be handed down to each generation regardless of the birth place of the parent.

Someone forgot to tell the people my friend is dealing with!

She had both her children in her home country with her Thai partner listed as the father and they are now married (several years later). She told me quite specifically that she was having difficulty getting her children listed as Thai citizens, but this is not in Bangkok so perhaps they don't know the law.

If anyone knows specifically the title of this law it might be of some help if I could send it on to my friend.

[samran]

Thai nationality law states that if a child is born to a Thai parent, regardless of marital status, then the child is a Thai national.

This is also regardless of place of birth either, so effectively, Thai nationality may be handed down to each generation regardless of the birth place of the parent.

Someone forgot to tell the people my friend is dealing with!

She had both her children in her home country with her Thai partner listed as the father and they are now married (several years later). She told me quite specifically that she was having difficulty getting her children listed as Thai citizens, but this is not in Bangkok so perhaps they don't know the law.

If anyone knows specifically the title of this law it might be of some help if I could send it on to my friend.

http://www.krisdika.go.th/lawChar.jsp?head...wCode=ส25 (the Thai version be sure to download the 1992 ammendments)

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...onality_Act.htm (english version)

http://www.thaiembdc.org/index.htm (Then go to consular informations...and then to aquire Thai nationity)

I would hazard a guess to say however, that your friend did not register the births with the Royal Thai embassy in her home country. Did they re-enter Thailand on their thai Passports?

Foreign embasseies in the country of birth unfortunately, are the place to start the process of establishng nationality of Thai's born overseas. If your friends did, then they should have been issued a Thai style birth certificate which can be then used as the basis for claims for passports and eventual registration on the tabien bahn when returning to Thailand.

The local ampur here is pretty much powerless to issue a birth cirtificate here unless that person was born in that ampur. Given they weren't born here, any ampur in thailand isn't the place to startl. Locally issued birth certificates clearly states the nationality of the child....which again, is used as the basis for all subsequent documentation. Our daughters local BC clearly says she is 'Thai' on it, as that is all she is for the moment. Australian and NZ nationality for her will only be obtained once we register her with the respective embassies.

If your friends already has the thai style birth certificates issued by the embassy, and the local ampur is simply being pig headed, then I'd just try another one, maybe in BKK, where friends may able to get them put on that tabien bahn. Then they can be transfered much more easily to the one they need to be on.

[sbk]

Cheers, I'll be sure to send it on to her!