Red wave set to swamp Bangkok

[tingtongteesood]

It seems that the army has somewhat been brought "under control" because the generals realize that a coup would not be accepted anymore.

Any coup from the army would lead to a general uprising in the populated north.

On the other side, the courts still can be seen by many as an "independent" body not scared to involve itself with the minority trying to gain power over the majority.

As long as the courts cannot be seen as impartial by the majority of people it's difficult to blame the reds when they want to fight to protect the people's basic rights.

Let's hope that there will be no need for the reds to go at war to defend democracy... and that all those trying to overthrow democracy by any means (criminal, coup, court rulings, ...) pay for their crimes.

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I dont like what you say - but I think your right - this Government will be returned to carry on corruption and bring in another amnesty bill to bring "Captain corruption" back from Dubai!! His plan cannot continue until another event happens!! This is Thailands sad future - anything else will be met with an M79 and a red riot!! - We know this but I as a Thai am proud that Thai people stood up in the street and said - "this is not democracy!!". Also did you know Thaksins neice is married to Hun Sens son? and his other neice to Myanmars leaders family? Thaksins lust for power will spill out ofThailand next time - especially now he believes he is untouchable!!

Unfortunately your posts love1012, if you are Thai, are as empty of factual information as the know-nothing foreigners in these threads that love to write about the favorite whipping boy and how much they hate Thaksin Shinawatra and use all the catchy little phrases about dictator, dubai, corruption, stole money and how he's a convicted criminal and should never been let into the country again but never come up with the goods and make a compelling, informed case against Thaksin Shinawatra and his family. Just the same cut and paste opinions and tired rants. And apparently Thaksin so dominates Thailand that no one other person or party can lead the Thai people in another direction. Shocking that Thailand cannot come up with a smart, savvy, successful leader to outmatch Thaksin if that's what's really necessary. Otherwise let him come back to Thailand and lead. Looks like he knew how to deal with the powerful and how to motivate the masses and how to make money. From what I see everyone else is ready to let it be torn down, fighting amongst themselves and following a clown that can't think two steps past "I hate the Shinawatras".

Seems to me the only clown here is you if you think Taksin has the country's interests or anyone else's at heart, he only has his own, always have and always will...

[max72]

It seems that the army has somewhat been brought "under control" because the generals realize that a coup would not be accepted anymore.

Any coup from the army would lead to a general uprising in the populated north.

On the other side, the courts still can be seen by many as an "independent" body not scared to involve itself with the minority trying to gain power over the majority.

As long as the courts cannot be seen as impartial by the majority of people it's difficult to blame the reds when they want to fight to protect the people's basic rights.

Let's hope that there will be no need for the reds to go at war to defend democracy... and that all those trying to overthrow democracy by any means (criminal, coup, court rulings, ...) pay for their crimes.

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I dont like what you say - but I think your right - this Government will be returned to carry on corruption and bring in another amnesty bill to bring "Captain corruption" back from Dubai!! His plan cannot continue until another event happens!! This is Thailands sad future - anything else will be met with an M79 and a red riot!! - We know this but I as a Thai am proud that Thai people stood up in the street and said - "this is not democracy!!". Also did you know Thaksins neice is married to Hun Sens son? and his other neice to Myanmars leaders family? Thaksins lust for power will spill out ofThailand next time - especially now he believes he is untouchable!!

Unfortunately your posts love1012, if you are Thai, are as empty of factual information as the know-nothing foreigners in these threads that love to write about the favorite whipping boy and how much they hate Thaksin Shinawatra and use all the catchy little phrases about dictator, dubai, corruption, stole money and how he's a convicted criminal and should never been let into the country again but never come up with the goods and make a compelling, informed case against Thaksin Shinawatra and his family. Just the same cut and paste opinions and tired rants. And apparently Thaksin so dominates Thailand that no one other person or party can lead the Thai people in another direction. Shocking that Thailand cannot come up with a smart, savvy, successful leader to outmatch Thaksin if that's what's really necessary. Otherwise let him come back to Thailand and lead. Looks like he knew how to deal with the powerful and how to motivate the masses and how to make money. From what I see everyone else is ready to let it be torn down, fighting amongst themselves and following a clown that can't think two steps past "I hate the Shinawatras".

Fact,

He is a convicted criminal. Fact he is corrupt probably more as others. All corruption should be stopped and corrupt officials should be punished. Why would you allow corruption and not be for ellimination of corruption. It seems most reds know how corrupt he was but want to forgive it because he did some good things. That is like saying a rapist can go because he saved someones live. It makes no sense.

So all you can come up with others are corrupt too.. boo hooo.

I say get all the corrupt officials and punish them seems a far better way to do things then to allow. But then again I do feel I am superior to the average red shirt. Especially if i see a thought process like that.

False.

Thaksin govt. was THE LEAST CORRUPTED in history of Thailand.

Source: Transparency International.

His gov.t was not "fortunated" but the economical growth was amongst the best in Thailand in the pst 50 years. Just check the World Bank data.

And the human rights situation and freedom of speech was much much greater than during any other government except that of Chuan Leekpai (sources: Freedomhouse and Reporters without Borders)

The real corrupts said Thaksin was super corrupt.

For sure he was corrupt, i don't say he wasn't, but he was less corrupt than the others, less than Suthep for sure.

If instead of a criminal like Suthep, we had a decent and honest people leading peaceful protests with real democratic plans, believe me i would support him. I would like a third decent party instead of these two, but maybe a good leader with very democratic ideas and credentials is still ages away to show up.

Edited February 2, 2014 by max72

[tingtongteesood]

It is well known that the Thais invented corruption.

It is the duty of every Thai leader to feed as much of the ill gotten gains to his family and followers as he/she has the chance to do..

To think that corruption can be reduced here ( or punished) is pissing into the wind, hope you have your mouth closed.

I hate it , but local rules are local rules anywhere we choose to go..

Well nothing will change with that kind of attitude. Better to try and fail than not to try, at least some progress may be made...

[glenmohr]

A Short history.

Once upon a time there was a country called Thailand.

The people lived in 3 regions: North East (Thai Isaan) North ( Thai Lanna) and south ( Thai Bangkok Phuket)

Like the former Yugoslavia these diverse groups got on quite well for a very long time.

But then a major commercial dispute arose which led to blood on the streets of Bangkok.

The leader of the nation came from Thai Lanna ( Thaksin) The Bangkok Phuket Thai took him to the courts on the basis of the fact that he was practising corruption as leader whereas the Thai Bangkok Phuket argued they had had the copyright rights on corruption since before Thaksin was even born.

These legal procedings went on for several years and people started to hate each other South to North. Then the hatred spread, Foreign expats who had married southern ladies started to hate foreign men who had married into Thai Isaan families.

Sadly the hatred spread and spread because no one in Thailand at that time had read the words of Nelson Mandela: "If I hate, I am no longer a free man"

In the meantime Thaksin was sentenced to jail for breach of the corruption copyright laws.

But he developed a cunning plan in leaving the country before the lock could be turned.

He never returned, he was no simpleton and had studied the history of the Philippines and knew when the highly charismatic Benigno Aquino returned from exile he was shot getting off the plane. to make sure he was really dead they shot him again. Thaksin knew all this. So he asked his sister to act as his agent.

Then a great leader arose in the south. He decided that the Thai Lanna and the Thai Isaan should not be allowed to vote.The reasons were that it would waste their time which should be better spent tending the rice crop. There was also a suggestion that he would command them to plough up the ricefield and plant palm trees.

Finally the people of Thai Isaan and Thai Lanna became bored, frustrated and angry. Rather than listen to speeches against them and their former leader they packed their bags and decided to start their own country. It was hard work at first but they thought it better to work hard than spend the time shooting at their neighbours. However luck was to arrive in the form of peace treaties and trade agreements with China which by then had become the world's economic superpower. Touriism, agriculture, casinos and industry flourished, seeing all this the Shan State of Mynamar seceded and together with the country of Laos formed the United States of North Thailand. The people were unified, prosperous and happy.

Prof,

1. Thaksin isn't Lanna. He's Thai-Chinese and can hardly speak a word of Kam-Mueang.

2. Bangkok is part of the Central region, not the South.

Correct Trembly. My submission was too long and fictitious therefore for brevity and simplicity the detail was short circuited, thank you.

[tingtongteesood]

If those do come to Bangkok ... I'll recommend to the gf that there is an untapped market maybe selling ageless face-cream to our friends from the north ...

They just look old from working hard to keep the rich BKK elite in the lifestyle they demand.

Seems you have that completely ass backwards since the entire rice scheme was paid for by tax payers money and ipso facto the rich 'elite' you reds keep bleating on about( actually more likely the middle classes as the rich can manipulate their monies to avoid tax )....The 'elite's tax money has been keeping the reds in the lifestyle they are demanding for the last 2 years till the caretakers stopped paying 6 months ago.

Yea I agree the rich elite charge them to go through their garbage bins. What a load of crap and nonsense most of the farms are now owned by the rich elite and these people lease them to scrape out a small living of scraps. It is the elite in BKK who are making the money not the farmers. Many of the wharehouses also own the farms and those that own the wharehouses are living in BKK and reaping all the rewards dinning and living off the work of the rural folk.

The same happens in Australia, China owns huge amounts of rural/agricultural property and the profits go to china. America owns the majority of beef properties the work done by aussies and the profits to the U.S.

Same in Thailand the elite own the land the farmers do the work and the elite reap 99% of the profits.

And if that is all true, then whose fault is it ? It is a PT scam, they are in charge, they made the rules, they choose who to pay. So you are confirming that the scam has done little to benefit the poor. Thanks for agreeing with the anti government protestors on something...

[tingtongteesood]

Who is "they", because if it's the people i'm thinking of, the people i am always hearing, it's never spoken in those sorts of sobering tones. It's always spoken with much fanfare and never with any mention of the world boom that was going on, just all about the miracle that Thaksin achieved.

They would add, as LevelHead says, that one of his most impressive achievements was to benefit regional people; also decreasing inequality.

In general, the benefits he made to those regional people were short term and haven't really put much of a dent in the wealth divide.

I've seen no evidence to indicate that he was more corrupt than other PMs. He probably antagonised many people through his drive and singlemindedness, but he should have been allowed to complete his term and the electors should have been given the chance to vote his party out if they wanted.

No, what should have happened is that when he blatantly "hid" his assets in the names of random staff members of his, right at the beginning of his tenure, the judges should not have been pressured by his popularity into letting him off, and instead should have found him guilty as we all know he was. Then he would have been banned for five years, not that that would have been the end of his political career i'm sure, but he would have known that there were limits to what he could get away with, and he would have acted with more restraint when it came to his abuses. He wasn't and he didn't, and so what we ended up with, was the absurdity of him having certain laws conveniently changed days before the tax free selling of his business to foreigners. That was the one step to far that drove people to the streets, and ultimately brought about the coup.

Instead, there was the coup and then as LevelHead says, the fake charges and propaganda.

Fake charges?! Give me a break. He was convicted whilst his own party was in power, he has never actually denied anything for which he was convicted, let alone provide any evidence to show that, he merely bleats on about how unfair it was... not only for someone of his standing to have been convicted, but for someone to dare turn down a very generous lunch box shaped bribe he had offered. That act alone and in itself, especially with it being a former Prime Minister, would in any properly functioning and just justice system, lead to a long stretch behind bars... and furthermore, it wouldn't matter if every single citizen wanted to elect that person to lead the country, the constitution would prevent it because the criteria for what makes someone eligible and what makes someone ineligible, to stand for office, is not something that can simply be ignored if enough people like that person.

++1++ ABSOLUTELY !

[Skywalker69]

Many seem to be shouting war and trying to ignite one. All caused by one single person for greed and desire of greatness. 64 years old and gathered billions. Still it's not enough. How does he think he can return to Thailand and live? Become president of the north? It will not happen.

One really has to be a blind fool to write such rubbish. So you are against democracy?! Go back to your home country, Thailand does not need your kinds of expats!

No I don´t think EB is against democracy. I think he is against red democracy.

[MAJIC]

If those do come to Bangkok ... I'll recommend to the gf that there is an untapped market maybe selling ageless face-cream to our friends from the north ...

They just look old from working hard to keep the rich BKK elite in the lifestyle they demand.

Unfortunately they are also the faces of the forever destined to be disappointed in their Political leaders!

[LadPhrao123]

It seems that the army has somewhat been brought "under control" because the generals realize that a coup would not be accepted anymore.

Any coup from the army would lead to a general uprising in the populated north.

On the other side, the courts still can be seen by many as an "independent" body not scared to involve itself with the minority trying to gain power over the majority.

As long as the courts cannot be seen as impartial by the majority of people it's difficult to blame the reds when they want to fight to protect the people's basic rights.

Let's hope that there will be no need for the reds to go at war to defend democracy... and that all those trying to overthrow democracy by any means (criminal, coup, court rulings, ...) pay for their crimes.

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I dont like what you say - but I think your right - this Government will be returned to carry on corruption and bring in another amnesty bill to bring "Captain corruption" back from Dubai!! His plan cannot continue until another event happens!! This is Thailands sad future - anything else will be met with an M79 and a red riot!! - We know this but I as a Thai am proud that Thai people stood up in the street and said - "this is not democracy!!". Also did you know Thaksins neice is married to Hun Sens son? and his other neice to Myanmars leaders family? Thaksins lust for power will spill out ofThailand next time - especially now he believes he is untouchable!!

Unfortunately your posts love1012, if you are Thai, are as empty of factual information as the know-nothing foreigners in these threads that love to write about the favorite whipping boy and how much they hate Thaksin Shinawatra and use all the catchy little phrases about dictator, dubai, corruption, stole money and how he's a convicted criminal and should never been let into the country again but never come up with the goods and make a compelling, informed case against Thaksin Shinawatra and his family. Just the same cut and paste opinions and tired rants. And apparently Thaksin so dominates Thailand that no one other person or party can lead the Thai people in another direction. Shocking that Thailand cannot come up with a smart, savvy, successful leader to outmatch Thaksin if that's what's really necessary. Otherwise let him come back to Thailand and lead. Looks like he knew how to deal with the powerful and how to motivate the masses and how to make money. From what I see everyone else is ready to let it be torn down, fighting amongst themselves and following a clown that can't think two steps past "I hate the Shinawatras".

Seems to me the only clown here is you if you think Taksin has the country's interests or anyone else's at heart, he only has his own, always have and always will...

Ahh, another poster who knows it all in a sentence, cut and paste your favorite Thaksin slur here "......." but all opinion and epithets, no facts to support it, and just for completeness adds in an empty insult. Don't hurt yourself making a comeback that requires critical thinking.

Edited February 2, 2014 by LadPhrao123

[rixalex]

More facts, less opinion. Interesting to read someone who has some knowledge of history, references to unbiased writings would be welcome, but sorry to say this all reads like selective "facts" and opinions to prop up a personal conclusion and opinion.

Funny how it is invariably the ones with the most obvious and extreme biased-leanings on the forum, who bleat on about others not having enough impartiality for their liking. Go get a mirror and take a hard look at what you see.

[LadPhrao123]

More facts, less opinion. Interesting to read someone who has some knowledge of history, references to unbiased writings would be welcome, but sorry to say this all reads like selective "facts" and opinions to prop up a personal conclusion and opinion.

Funny how it is invariably the ones with the most obvious and extreme biased-leanings on the forum, who bleat on about others not having enough impartiality for their liking. Go get a mirror and take a hard look at what you see.

Hah, hah, yes, anything like trying to strike a balanced view of Thaksin and the Shinawatras in the context of politics and business in Thailand is an extreme biased leaning here in the 'I love to hate something, everybody needs a cause follow me' world of TVF News but it's not about 'enough impartiality for their liking' at all. If all you can do is spew empty cliches well I guess it's your thing, it's common as ants at a picnic here, but the alternative could be so much more interesting and informative if you've really got anything to say. Mirror? Prefer the printed page aye what...

[MAJIC]

No you only want those agreeing with you whether they are Thai or falang

You are supporting a group which is trying to deny the fundamental right of voting! It does not get any more undemocratic than that! The Yellows have had multiple opportunities to make their so called "reforms" recently, in 2006-2008 especially.

Only some arrogant and ignorant Bangkok expats continue supporting them for some selfish reason obviously. Some are even hoping for a military coup.

Keep on voting is the only way to get rid of corrupted politicians eventually. Military coups only hand power back to the same corrupted elite in Bangkok and nothing improves. The Reds are not much better but at least it is a small step forward.

This arrogant attitude of Thai Chinese minority is very dangerous. The idea it is their birthright is to rule over Thailand. It could turn against themselves if the angry Reds really started flooding to Bangkok. All that decades long hate just waiting to be released. It could turn very ugly and very fast. When Thais lose their cool, they really lose it in very bad way. I hope it does not come to that.

In 2010 it was very close of starting a civil war. Government buildings already were burning all over the place but for some unknown reason it did not escalate beyond that. This time we might not be so lucky.

Finally someone who knows what there talking about, the Chinese started imagrating to Thailand over 400 years ago, between 1882 & 1917 there where 30,000 per year coming to Thailand, starting in 1910 they where required to take Thai surenames, they currently make up around 14% of the population around 9 million. Between WWI & WWII they contoled all the rice, timber, tin and rubber being produced in Thailand mainly via corruption. Today 80% of the Thai stock market is controled by Thai Chinese, 80% of the top 40 wealthiest Thais are Thai/Chinese with the new 2013 #3 being Chareon of Thai Bev.

Yingluck, Abiset, Thaksin and most all of the past 10 PM's have been Thai/Chinese, the military, the courts and most public offices at the high level are Thai/Chinese. They are seperate society within the Thai society, you will rarely ever see a Thai chinese marry a Thai, they are only allowed to marry within there society, if they do so they risk being shunned by their family.

I am not saying that all Thai/Chinese are bad or corrupt, but the current situation is just a power struggle between the Thai/Chinese elites, with the poor Thai people being manipulated stuck in the middle!

How right you are! the people seem unaware of the hidden struggle,and danger, and how many decades will it take before Thailand realise? while they have been fighting each other, the major wealth, and power has been sucked up and is heavily owned and controlled by those with more allegiances to China,than Thailand. And Thailand could easily end up a Satellite State of China? by default.

Edited February 2, 2014 by MAJIC

[outre99]

I think reasonable people can agree that elections is not the same as democracy anywhere in the world. In addition to "Free and Fair" elections democracy requires informed, participating citizenry, a real set of options to vote for, and most importantly respect for the democaratic process.

None of these prerequisites exist in Thailand. Come to think of it they don't exist in the US either, but that's besides the point.

To claim that somehow the reds are the champions of democracy while the bad yellows or whatever their color is seek to destroy it is preposterous. The reds similar to US Republicans have spend a lot of time stacking the system in their favor by often questionable means. Patronage, pooyai bribery, and vote buying have been used to subvert the weak democratic process in order to deliver winning results. The current system is not a democracy and must be rooted out and changed in order for Thailand to move ahead.

Unfortunately the people who are championing this position have not been blessed with the sharpest minds and have committed blunder after blunder, which essentially discredited them and precluded any chance of reasonable negotiations.

Both camps have employed mass street rallies, indimidation, and violence to subvert the proper democratic process and have demonstrated complete disregard for democracy as a concept. At least the yellows are honest about it and they have a point.

If the Thai masses behave this way they might not be ready for democracy and should leave the true governing to people who are qualified to make complex and important decisions for the country. The last few years of the red government have demonstrated that the people in charge now have no clue or business of running the country. The experience has been shokingly similar to whatching children playing house.

One might have reasonable debate about the degrees on either side but to come out and say that being against reds is like being against democracy is rather childish. You might want to go and play house too.

I really wonder how the hard core reds can convince their rice farming neighbours to continue voting for the incompetent PT after the whole rice pledging debacle. At least rice farm subsidies under Democrats were paid on time.

Many seem to be shouting war and trying to ignite one. All caused by one single person for greed and desire of greatness. 64 years old and gathered billions. Still it's not enough. How does he think he can return to Thailand and live? Become president of the north? It will not happen.

One really has to be a blind fool to write such rubbish. So you are against democracy?! Go back to your home country, Thailand does not need your kinds of expats!

[MAJIC]

Many seem to be shouting war and trying to ignite one. All caused by one single person for greed and desire of greatness. 64 years old and gathered billions. Still it's not enough. How does he think he can return to Thailand and live? Become president of the north? It will not happen.

One really has to be a blind fool to write such rubbish. So you are against democracy?! Go back to your home country, Thailand does not need your kinds of expats!

No you only want those agreeing with you whether they are Thai or falang

What I would like is some honesty.

We were treated once again to the hyperbole of blaming everything on Thaksin. How many times do we have to read claims as to the man's alleged mind control over millions? Much of his wealth is on paper, and is not sitting at his feet in the form of gold coin. The issue isn't even the purported wealth. Rather it is the condescending arrogance of those, who in the absence of an intelligent argument attribute the PTP support to the supporters being paid off. It is quite obvious that the people making such spiteful allegations know nothing about the regions which support the PTP.

I emailed my friend yesterday asking him if he would vote. He replied yes and loosely translated, he said he was holding his nose. I translated a word I didn't understand as "hillbilly". Basically he said he was voting because Suthep and his supporters treated him and his family like hillbillies and would do nothing for them. And before you dismiss this, note that he is one of the thousands of sons of Issan who have been sent to the south to deal with the insurgency. In his case he deals with IEDS and other gifts from one of the groups supporting Suthep . He's lost friends in the conflict and I've watched as his hair has more and more white over the past year. His parents are elderly and they still work back breaking jobs to gain income. He's the face of Isan. Not particularly polished, but polite, trustworthy. His vote isn't for sale, and his support for the election is because he actually believes in the right to vote. Maybe one day when some of you people actually get out into the areas filled with the people you piss on and get to know them and the systemic economic hardship and denial of opportunity, you will have a better understanding of why they support the PTP and even the UDD.

Why they support PTP is very simple the people were promised: to be rich in six months,as promised by Thaksin,and a good price for their Rice crop,as promised by Thaksin and Yingluck, No Amnesty or special treatment by Yingluck,for her Brother Thaksin (which resulted in clandestine parliamentary skulduggery at 4-0 am) which then caused this civil unrest and turmoil. There are many more reasons,but the facts are they got lied to,but up to now they refuse to believe the obvious truth. The dawning of realisation will come,but I fear it will be a long hard lessen! and very painful,violent and destructive!

[Skywalker69]

Before I said it is a choice between bad (dems) and superbad (shinas). The shinas raised corruption to an exceptional level. Allowing them to go on would mean many more billions thrown away in the rice scam and the go ahead for the 2.2 TRILLION loan.

The corruption index really jumped from 62 to over 80 during the yellow rule of 2006 to 2008. Then it rose even further over 100 during the following four years and have stayed up there, regardless of which side has been in power. You cannot solely put the blame on the Red side in this. Espeicially since most of the government services are in the Yellow dominated BANGKOK!

The only solution is to keep on voting, no "good peoples'" councils are going to help. Especially since the Yellow politicians clearly have a hidden agenda, to put Bangkok district into a somekind of government kingmaker position and bring back the old feudal like rule of Bangkok elite.

The corruption index really jumped from 62 to over 80 during the yellow rule of 2006 to 2008.

And the corruption jumped from 88 2012 to102 2013. How is that for corruption?

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/

[tropo]

I think reasonable people can agree that elections is not the same as democracy anywhere in the world. In addition to "Free and Fair" elections democracy requires informed, participating citizenry, a real set of options to vote for, and most importantly respect for the democaratic process.

None of these prerequisites exist in Thailand. Come to think of it they don't exist in the US either, but that's besides the point.

Get Real! These pre-requisites you speak of don't exist anywhere in the world. Most developed nations have a choice of only 2 parties with any hope of winning elections and nothing changes no matter which one wins. Elections are no more than a waste of time and money. The US is the best example of how much time and money can be wasted on elections.

In the meanwhile, these countries (all countries) must do the best they can which is to decide upon leadership by public vote.. but the problem is people here don't believe in that system anymore even if they once did.

The moment the tanks rolled in when Thaksin was abroad, they ****ed up any chance of any system working. 100 years will not be enough time to see peace here. Some countries just cannot handle democracy in any form. Thailand would probably do best under a dictatorship or communist government...

Start packing. Get out while the going is good.

Edited February 2, 2014 by tropo

[krabimike]

Yes it is sad to be an American at times. As we are the world power that goes around giving and taking democracy at will. Possibly it is because we understand it so well.

But the issue here is Thai land's struggle for democracy. It is sad that you do not take it serious.

[tropo]

Yes it is sad to be an American at times. As we are the world power that goes around giving and taking democracy at will. Possibly it is because we understand it so well.

But the issue here is Thai land's struggle for democracy. It is sad that you do not take it serious.

Why is seeing the reality of the situation not taking it seriously? Is there any point dreaming about the impossible?

... but in a way you are correct. I'm a spectator who doesn't get too involved in what's happening. It's like watching a movie to me... but we're seeing a re-run of the same movie, so it does get a bit boring.

[ikke]

Many seem to be shouting war and trying to ignite one. All caused by one single person for greed and desire of greatness. 64 years old and gathered billions. Still it's not enough. How does he think he can return to Thailand and live? Become president of the north? It will not happen.

One really has to be a blind fool to write such rubbish. So you are against democracy?! Go back to your home country, Thailand does not need your kinds of expats!

I agree 100 % with you, but Mr Berg's comments are always undemocratic ... quote.. All caused by one single person for greed and desire of greatness, here he's right, if he was talking about Suthep.

[chadintheusa]

No you only want those agreeing with you whether they are Thai or falang

You are supporting a group which is trying to deny the fundamental right of voting! It does not get any more undemocratic than that! The Yellows have had multiple opportunities to make their so called "reforms" recently, in 2006-2008 especially.

Only some arrogant and ignorant Bangkok expats continue supporting them for some selfish reason obviously. Some are even hoping for a military coup.

Keep on voting is the only way to get rid of corrupted politicians eventually. Military coups only hand power back to the same corrupted elite in Bangkok and nothing improves. The Reds are not much better but at least it is a small step forward.

This arrogant attitude of Thai Chinese minority is very dangerous. The idea it is their birthright is to rule over Thailand. It could turn against themselves if the angry Reds really started flooding to Bangkok. All that decades long hate just waiting to be released. It could turn very ugly and very fast. When Thais lose their cool, they really lose it in very bad way. I hope it does not come to that.

In 2010 it was very close of starting a civil war. Government buildings already were burning all over the place but for some unknown reason it did not escalate beyond that. This time we might not be so lucky.

Does anyone else get the irony? Thaksin is Thai Chinese! If you open your eyes you will see that many countries use democracy as a front to keep dictators in power. Look at Iraq under Hussein, Venezula under Chavez, or North Korea under Kim. All democracies. The idea that people can vote out bad leaders is not true. Ask the Syrians if they can vote out Assad, ask the Egyptians how easy it was to vote out Mubarak. Dictators understand how to manipulate democracy to give themselves the appearance of legitimacy. Remember this was essentially a one party election that was rushed and mishandled. The PT bought the northern vote with empty promises. At least Thaksin delivered the 30 baht healthcare scheme, but by stiffing the farmers the PT is going to lose their supporters. Their ranting and raving about civil war is nonsense. Suthep called for millions to join him, but the numbers are much lower. The same will be true for the Reds, when the UDD calls them out less than expected will turn up. Your average Thai does not want to sacrifice their life for a billionaire that doesn't really care about them, no matter which side they are on. It doesn't take many people to torch some buildings or build a barricade, but to build a nation takes all. Let's all be realistic, the right to vote is not the only human right that is trampled on in Thailand. Thai society does not operate on the assumption that all men are equal.

[harada]

Yes it is sad to be an American at times. As we are the world power that goes around giving and taking democracy at will. Possibly it is because we understand it so well.

But the issue here is Thai land's struggle for democracy. It is sad that you do not take it serious.

Why is seeing the reality of the situation not taking it seriously? Is there any point dreaming about the impossible?

... but in a way you are correct. I'm a spectator who doesn't get too involved in what's happening. It's like watching a movie to me... but we're seeing a re-run of the same movie, so it does get a bit boring.

Yeah the first 25 years is ok but it starts to wear a bit thin after that.

[SebD]

Much as I dislike disorder, part of me hopes that the ordinary hard working people do actually confront these people who wish to replace a democratically voted government with their own unelected and minority ruled idea of government.

Power to the people.

Not from someone who is arrogant enough to believe he is more important than the populace in general. Just who does he think he is?

Anyone who disagrees is probably beyond redemption.

One person - one vote. End of.

Edited February 2, 2014 by SebD

[SebD]

No you only want those agreeing with you whether they are Thai or falang

You are supporting a group which is trying to deny the fundamental right of voting! It does not get any more undemocratic than that! The Yellows have had multiple opportunities to make their so called "reforms" recently, in 2006-2008 especially.

Only some arrogant and ignorant Bangkok expats continue supporting them for some selfish reason obviously. Some are even hoping for a military coup.

Keep on voting is the only way to get rid of corrupted politicians eventually. Military coups only hand power back to the same corrupted elite in Bangkok and nothing improves. The Reds are not much better but at least it is a small step forward.

This arrogant attitude of Thai Chinese minority is very dangerous. The idea it is their birthright is to rule over Thailand. It could turn against themselves if the angry Reds really started flooding to Bangkok. All that decades long hate just waiting to be released. It could turn very ugly and very fast. When Thais lose their cool, they really lose it in very bad way. I hope it does not come to that.

In 2010 it was very close of starting a civil war. Government buildings already were burning all over the place but for some unknown reason it did not escalate beyond that. This time we might not be so lucky.

Does anyone else get the irony? Thaksin is Thai Chinese! If you open your eyes you will see that many countries use democracy as a front to keep dictators in power. Look at Iraq under Hussein, Venezula under Chavez, or North Korea under Kim. All democracies. The idea that people can vote out bad leaders is not true. Ask the Syrians if they can vote out Assad, ask the Egyptians how easy it was to vote out Mubarak. Dictators understand how to manipulate democracy to give themselves the appearance of legitimacy. Remember this was essentially a one party election that was rushed and mishandled. The PT bought the northern vote with empty promises. At least Thaksin delivered the 30 baht healthcare scheme, but by stiffing the farmers the PT is going to lose their supporters. Their ranting and raving about civil war is nonsense. Suthep called for millions to join him, but the numbers are much lower. The same will be true for the Reds, when the UDD calls them out less than expected will turn up. Your average Thai does not want to sacrifice their life for a billionaire that doesn't really care about them, no matter which side they are on. It doesn't take many people to torch some buildings or build a barricade, but to build a nation takes all. Let's all be realistic, the right to vote is not the only human right that is trampled on in Thailand. Thai society does not operate on the assumption that all men are equal.

Agreed.

Thailand is not Iraq, Syria or North Korea (so stop comparing it with those).

Thailand is a proper democracy.

But the scary part is that a loud minority seeks control. The simple fact that these business people want control of Thailand and its economy should be the clue.( If it were'nt worth it, they wouldn't bother)

If Thailand were not worth milking, they would not be so stridently seeking its control.

All the more reason for the ordinary person (the potential "milked") to resist their machinations and insist on an ordinarily accepted democratic one-person-one-vote system of electing the government.

Am surprised more haven't already worked that out for themselves.

Edited February 2, 2014 by SebD

[glenmohr]

It is well known that the Thais invented corruption.

It is the duty of every Thai leader to feed as much of the ill gotten gains to his family and followers as he/she has the chance to do..

To think that corruption can be reduced here ( or punished) is pissing into the wind, hope you have your mouth closed.

I hate it , but local rules are local rules anywhere we choose to go..

Well nothing will change with that kind of attitude. Better to try and fail than not to try, at least some progress may be made...

Ting Tong, it is only the international community who wish to change Thailand

The Thais accept corruption .

The question that exercises the Thai mind are do we have the corrupt Thaksin or do we have the corrupt Suthep. That is the question.

Off and on I have done business here over a span of 30 years.

Early on I was taken by a Thai associate to a government official.

My Thai friends advice went like this:

1) Breath through your nose.

2) Do not raise your voice

3) Do not be angry

4) Pay the man

This is Thai culture . It is only us foreigners who would like it to change. I am not sure that I agree that we have any right to interfere.I am not comfortable but who am I? It is their country and they do not wish to be colonised, that is their choice.

Edited February 3, 2014 by glenmohr

[rixalex]

More facts, less opinion. Interesting to read someone who has some knowledge of history, references to unbiased writings would be welcome, but sorry to say this all reads like selective "facts" and opinions to prop up a personal conclusion and opinion.

Funny how it is invariably the ones with the most obvious and extreme biased-leanings on the forum, who bleat on about others not having enough impartiality for their liking. Go get a mirror and take a hard look at what you see.

Hah, hah, yes, anything like trying to strike a balanced view of Thaksin and the Shinawatras in the context of politics and business in Thailand is an extreme biased leaning here in the 'I love to hate something, everybody needs a cause follow me' world of TVF News but it's not about 'enough impartiality for their liking' at all. If all you can do is spew empty cliches well I guess it's your thing, it's common as ants at a picnic here, but the alternative could be so much more interesting and informative if you've really got anything to say. Mirror? Prefer the printed page aye what...

A tedious and long-winded way of saying you hold your own opinion (and all those who happen to agree with you), in high regard, and that of others whose views on Thaksin and the Shinawatras don't match up with yours, are to be dismissed simply as unbalanced spewed hate rantings, with no need for counter-argument or explanation. For certain apologists on this forum, it's a very familiar modus operandi... and every (allegedly) newly arriving apologist, seems funnily enough, very well versed and practiced in it.

[outre99]

I think reasonable people can agree that elections is not the same as democracy anywhere in the world. In addition to "Free and Fair" elections democracy requires informed, participating citizenry, a real set of options to vote for, and most importantly respect for the democaratic process.

None of these prerequisites exist in Thailand. Come to think of it they don't exist in the US either, but that's besides the point.

Get Real! These pre-requisites you speak of don't exist anywhere in the world. Most developed nations have a choice of only 2 parties with any hope of winning elections and nothing changes no matter which one wins. Elections are no more than a waste of time and money. The US is the best example of how much time and money can be wasted on elections.

In the meanwhile, these countries (all countries) must do the best they can which is to decide upon leadership by public vote.. but the problem is people here don't believe in that system anymore even if they once did.

The moment the tanks rolled in when Thaksin was abroad, they ****ed up any chance of any system working. 100 years will not be enough time to see peace here. Some countries just cannot handle democracy in any form. Thailand would probably do best under a dictatorship or communist government...

Start packing. Get out while the going is good.

I am real and i agree with everything you state. US system has been hijaked by the entrenched intrests of the corporations with the media doing their best to fan contrived culture wars to keep the uninformed public distracted. The only places where democracy still survives are those wealthy northern European countries where people are still participating and hold their politicians accountable.

But a point must be made that the myth of democracy being the best form of government everywhere and at all times is a falacy. Just like in learning or exersizing significant results must earned by significant struggle. And once won the results must be maintained and nurished with a mighty effort. The US has shown us what happens when that effort waines.

Thai people as a whole did not go through the struggle for democracy nor do they really understand what it truly means let alone be willing to fight for it. There are many reasons for that. Cultural defference to seniority and authority, poor civics education, ubiquotous corruption, etc. etc. But in the end of the day if the conditions are not right, and the gardener is not interested the tree of democracy will not take root and thrive.

IMHO Thailand will do well to look to Singapore for the political model that might better match the realities of the current situation. A benevolent dictatorship with the progressive nationalistic and economic goals executed by smart technocrats with a long term vision might be exactly what Thailand needs. Let the adults run the country for a change.

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed.

[LevelHead]

I think reasonable people can agree that elections is not the same as democracy anywhere in the world. In addition to "Free and Fair" elections democracy requires informed, participating citizenry, a real set of options to vote for, and most importantly respect for the democaratic process.

None of these prerequisites exist in Thailand. Come to think of it they don't exist in the US either, but that's besides the point.

To claim that somehow the reds are the champions of democracy while the bad yellows or whatever their color is seek to destroy it is preposterous. The reds similar to US Republicans have spend a lot of time stacking the system in their favor by often questionable means. Patronage, pooyai bribery, and vote buying have been used to subvert the weak democratic process in order to deliver winning results. The current system is not a democracy and must be rooted out and changed in order for Thailand to move ahead.

Unfortunately the people who are championing this position have not been blessed with the sharpest minds and have committed blunder after blunder, which essentially discredited them and precluded any chance of reasonable negotiations.

Both camps have employed mass street rallies, indimidation, and violence to subvert the proper democratic process and have demonstrated complete disregard for democracy as a concept. At least the yellows are honest about it and they have a point.

If the Thai masses behave this way they might not be ready for democracy and should leave the true governing to people who are qualified to make complex and important decisions for the country. The last few years of the red government have demonstrated that the people in charge now have no clue or business of running the country. The experience has been shokingly similar to whatching children playing house.

One might have reasonable debate about the degrees on either side but to come out and say that being against reds is like being against democracy is rather childish. You might want to go and play house too.

I really wonder how the hard core reds can convince their rice farming neighbours to continue voting for the incompetent PT after the whole rice pledging debacle. At least rice farm subsidies under Democrats were paid on time.

Many seem to be shouting war and trying to ignite one. All caused by one single person for greed and desire of greatness. 64 years old and gathered billions. Still it's not enough. How does he think he can return to Thailand and live? Become president of the north? It will not happen.

One really has to be a blind fool to write such rubbish. So you are against democracy?! Go back to your home country, Thailand does not need your kinds of expats!

The point you miss is :

The red shirt protests in 2010 were calling for new elections. They felt the judicial system had been perverted, they were disgusted by the Abhisit/Newin handshake and agreement to form a new parliament after the courts had stripped PPP of power.

All Yellow/PAD/PDRC protests, in 2006, 2008 and 2013/14 have been asking for coups, no elections, removal of democracy.

In my opinion of course.

[Finkelstein]

Before I said it is a choice between bad (dems) and superbad (shinas). The shinas raised corruption to an exceptional level. Allowing them to go on would mean many more billions thrown away in the rice scam and the go ahead for the 2.2 TRILLION loan.

The corruption index really jumped from 62 to over 80 during the yellow rule of 2006 to 2008. Then it rose even further over 100 during the following four years and have stayed up there, regardless of which side has been in power. You cannot solely put the blame on the Red side in this. Espeicially since most of the government services are in the Yellow dominated BANGKOK!

The only solution is to keep on voting, no "good peoples'" councils are going to help. Especially since the Yellow politicians clearly have a hidden agenda, to put Bangkok district into a somekind of government kingmaker position and bring back the old feudal like rule of Bangkok elite.

Interesting statistic as 2006 Thaksin was in power from Jan. 1. until mid September when the military took over, they left again at the beginning of 2008 where red shirt Samak took over, he again was followed by red shirt leader Thaksins sister Daengs husband Somchai - he was released from power in december 2008...

So where is the yellow rule ??

[prvtdetdave]

Many seem to be shouting war and trying to ignite one. All caused by one single person for greed and desire of greatness. 64 years old and gathered billions. Still it's not enough. How does he think he can return to Thailand and live? Become president of the north? It will not happen.

Pure rubbish.