Gears slightly grating after clutch replacement

[cheeryble]

Thanks for suggestion LL....

Situation is the Vitara is driveable and I've not had a full day I can give him the car.

I took it in briefly the gear oil is indeed ok. They did something not sure what I whizzed out for ten minutes and I thought an improvement but fact is it's not ok I notice I'm changing gears very carefully trying to synch the speed and still getting that slight clicking on some changes.

Once again, load engages about half way up the pedal travel and in general the clutch seems to disengage not far from half way.

But even if I press much further down to the floor there is still the occasional slight clicking of gears......is that what you call drag, can it work like that?

As I said earlier although I have done my share of amateur mechanical work in my life including stripping an engine and grinding valves (Rover 3 litre) and have also worked on your early series Land Rover (seem to remember a fiddly water pump and a ball joint) when I was pulling horses I happen to have not done a clutch and though I understand the general action going on I still can't visualize the job of the alignment tool so I would find it hard to explain to him like "Did you do this?"

Perhaps I'll have a look on YouTube now.

ps as you're a Lancashire Lad do you know Leagram Park my ex lives there we're still the best of friends it's a lovely area indeed.

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Edited February 24, 2014 by cheeryble

[Lancashirelad]

But even if I press much further down to the floor there is still the occasional slight clicking of gears......is that what you call drag, can it work like that?

Yep, that's clutch drag.

though I understand the general action going on I still can't visualize the job of the alignment tool so I would find it hard to explain to him like "Did you do this?"

Perhaps I'll have a look on YouTube now.

Good idea, here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWPNlCzzwRI

Basically the tool keeps the drive plate centralised with the spigot bearing whilst the cover plate is tightened down.

If some sort of tool is not used, the splined hole in the centre of the drive plate can be out of line with the spigot bearing making it all but impossible to mate up the gearbox.

ps as you're a Lancashire Lad do you know Leagram Park my ex lives there we're still the best of friends it's a lovely area indeed.

I've never heard of it but a quick Google map search shows it as near Chipping in the Forest of Bowland. That is indeed a lovely area.

[cheeryble]

Thanks Lancashire Lad

Ok thanks I now pretty much get it.

The alignment tool holds the friction plate centralised until it is held in place by the cover plate eh?

If not when the gearbox shaft is offered up to an uncentralised splined hole in the FP it could interfere eh which I think was mentioned before about bending....?

What I wasn't getting was that of course the gearbox shaft only goes as far as the FP and that's it.

Thanks anyway.

I shall put this in the shop next week and am going to ask to see the bits before they put it together again.

Might I actually see some damage to the friction plate?

ps yes ex's address is in fact Chipping

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[transam]

I would suggest that all the alignment tool does is centralise the disc so the box shaft can pass through the disc and pick up the bearing in the end of the crank, if it is not central you will not pick up the crank.

One should always check the disc slides freely on the box shaft before assembly.

Edited March 8, 2014 by transam

[cheeryble]

I would suggest that all the alignment tool does is centralise the disc so the box shaft can pass through the disc and pick up the bearing in the end of the crank, if it is not central you will not pick up the crank.

One should always check the disc slides freely on the box shaft before assembly.

But hang on I think what I just realised was the box shaft does NOT go through to the crank, if it did there would be no clutching action it would be direct all the way through.

As to ensuring the disc slides freely yes a dab of grease and wipe away any excess I see.

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[transam]

I would suggest that all the alignment tool does is centralise the disc so the box shaft can pass through the disc and pick up the bearing in the end of the crank, if it is not central you will not pick up the crank.

One should always check the disc slides freely on the box shaft before assembly.

But hang on I think what I just realised was the box shaft does NOT go through to the crank, if it did there would be no clutching action it would be direct all the way through.

As to ensuring the disc slides freely yes a dab of grease and wipe away any excess I see.

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The gearbox shaft goes through the disc and ends up in the end of the crankshaft. That is what keeps everything in line. The bearing in the crank can be a bronze bush or a sealed bearing.

[cheeryble]

Ah!

So you're saying that the end of the box shaft sits in a free running bearing or bush at the end if the crank?

Yes that would be good as long as there's no action coming through and presumably it's just sitting in the bearing holding the gearbox in line?

And a little way back towards the gearbox where it goes throughg the splines in the friction disc is where it picks up the action eh?

I wasn't an eggspurt after all.

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[transam]

The shaft from the gearbox slides into the bearing in the end of the crank, when you use the clutch the shaft is disengaged from power allowing the crank to carry on spinning whilst the shaft will stop, thats why a bearing in the end of the crank.

My fun ride, many moons ago, had a dual friction plate set up, with a secondary "fly wheel", that was real fun to install.

[Lancashirelad]

Ah!

So you're saying that the end of the box shaft sits in a free running bearing or bush at the end if the crank?

Yes that would be good as long as there's no action coming through and presumably it's just sitting in the bearing holding the gearbox in line?

And a little way back towards the gearbox where it goes throughg the splines in the friction disc is where it picks up the action eh?

I wasn't an eggspurt after all.

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Yes you've got it now. The tip of the g/box input shaft that sits in the spigot bearing is smaller and smooth, the part of the shaft that sits thru' the FP is larger and splined.

This pic looks strange because the bell housing has been removed from the box.

Never use normal grease on the spline, it will spin out (centrifuge effect) and contaminate the FP. Use copper grease.

[cheeryble]

Excellent pic LL

I'm getting pretty fed up with being careful with the gear changes and can't wait to find a couple of days to put it in the shop and clear the mystery.

Will report of course.

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[Daffy D]

In the good old days we could do gear changes without using the clutch

Which reminds me of a minibus ride I took a couple of years ago where the clutch linkage broke and the driver finished the journey changing gear without using the clutch.

He only had problems when approaching traffic lights where he would have to slow right down and hope they changed to green before he got there. The couple of times he had to actually stop he would stop the engine select 1st gear while stationary and start the engine while rolling using the starter.

Pretty neat piece of driving.

[cheeryble]

In the good old days we could do gear changes without using the clutch

Which reminds me of a minibus ride I took a couple of years ago where the clutch linkage broke and the driver finished the journey changing gear without using the clutch.

He only had problems when approaching traffic lights where he would have to slow right down and hope they changed to green before he got there. The couple of times he had to actually stop he would stop the engine select 1st gear while stationary and start the engine while rolling using the starter.

Pretty neat piece of driving.

Haha yes Daffy believe it or not we once had a Daimler Limousine about 56 model it had a preselector you change the gear lever position on the steering column....nothing happens yet....then bang down on the "clutch" one time when you want to actually change.

Indeed when the present clutch went at night I got back across CM using the starter to pull away from stationary then changing just as your driver....the trick to not stop completely if poss.

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Edited March 11, 2014 by cheeryble

[Daffy D]

That that takes me back and reminds me of a former life where I had an Armstrong Siddeley with preselector box.

Funny little gearshift lever by the steering wheel to choose the next gear and as you say bang the clutch to make the actual selection.

Friend of mine about the same time had an old Daimler with preselect and for fun he would rev up the engine just before banging the clutch - that car would leap up and take off like a racehorse out of the starting gate.

Good old days.

[Lancashirelad]

The Mercedes truck in my avatar that I used to drive, built in 2003 has a preselect semi auto g/box. 16 speed. (2014 models have the same principle if not fully auto) You just nudge a stubby lever forward to change up half a gear, or flick a flap on the front of the selector up twice to go up a full gear. The gear you have selected then flashes on the dash display for about 15 seconds, drop the clutch within that time and up she goes.

I've driven many vehicles home/back to workshop with broken clutch cables in the manner described by Daffy D. Its quite easy, except in heavy stop, start traffic.

In the 70's and 80's guys have brought fully laden trucks (semis) back from Europe to the UK, on & off ferries, in the same manner.

[Lancashirelad]

oops. double post.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Lancashirelad

[cheeryble]

Thanks for the great picture LL I feel like a clutch man indeed now.

Got the car back Saturday.

I believe he was saying the cover plate was ill built and kinda held one up and made a wobbly motion with his hand.

He couldn't show me sadly cos he got it replaced.

It is undoubtedly better, but got to say I'm finding the gears I have to push to select, ie 3 and 5, are kinda hard to select needs a bit of push and third can kinda not go in perfectly, and even possible a very slight grate sometimes on that gear.

Don't want to make like the worlds coming to an end, I can drive anywhere, and maybe most people might not even notice it.

Is this maybe a gear selector linkage problem. (He guy really had to move basically did the job in one day and I just picked it up late without a test drive tho I'm sure they'll have had one.

Again, it's on the borders of being OK, but just not quite perfect to someone who's driven for 47 years.

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[wefinesse]

If the gears are - slightly grating - , that means your synchromeshes are not doing the job or the clutch is not disengaging fully to enable the synchromeshes to do the job.

Put the car in 2nd gear with engine not running. Then press the clutch and start the car. (Make sure you have nobody or objects in front of car in case it start to go forward with the starter). If the car starts with no shudder, you can reasonably assume the clutch is disengaged by pressing the clutch pedal. If not you have to try to make adjustments with the clutch release cable until the clutch is fully disengaged when you press the clutch pedal. There are times the inner cable is stretched and adjustment is not possible to achieve a full disengagement. In such a case one may insert a extension piece to compensate for the stretching - a back ally repair, but will work. Just one of the scenarios of many possible causes. We will be in Phuket from the 20th on. Will be happy to help, if possible. Good luck anyways.

[wefinesse]

If the gears are - slightly grating - , that means your synchromeshes are not doing the job or the clutch is not disengaging fully to enable the synchromeshes to do the job.

Put the car in 2nd gear with engine not running. Then press the clutch and start the car. (Make sure you have nobody or objects in front of car in case it start to go forward with the starter). If the car starts with no shudder, you can reasonably assume the clutch is disengaged by pressing the clutch pedal. If not you have to try to make adjustments with the clutch release cable until the clutch is fully disengaged when you press the clutch pedal. There are times the inner cable is stretched and adjustment is not possible to achieve a full disengagement. In such a case one may insert a extension piece to compensate for the stretching - a back ally repair, but will work. Just one of the scenarios of many possible causes. We will be in Phuket from the 20th on. Will be happy to help, if possible. Good luck anyways.

Posting above was while the OP s last post was in progress (time-wise). Sorry if it looks irrelevant.

[transam]

Sounds like it is still binding a tad. Possibly syncro's but for that to be the prob it is usually a high mileage ride or clutch not used properly when shifting gears over time.

When the disc beds in and used a bit it might cure itself if the bind is slight.