Another Black Day In Burma's History...

[FlyingDutchman]

Two Aung San Suu KyiAung threads merged.

cv

... so ... ? This one get's deleted ?

[penzman]

Do you really think she will receive in hand all those messages of support, or maybe that it will be emailed to her personal computer through her internet connection?

[cdnvic]

Two Aung San Suu KyiAung threads merged.

cv

... so ... ? This one get's deleted ?

merged = joined together

[LaoPo]

Do you really think she will receive in hand all those messages of support, or maybe that it will be emailed to her personal computer through her internet connection?

Well, I'm not sure of course.

But I know one thing and that is that IF NOBODY in the world does anything (or didn't do anything in the past...) Aung San Suu Kyi would be forgotten in no time.

http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/index.php

Many of us discuss, complain, have fun, grieve, can meet friends, travel and much more on a daily basis.

Can she?

How would we feel if our beloved one was dying (like her husband died) without having the possibility to say 'good bye' for the last time....or having the opportunity to see her children (in the UK)............?

Yes, she was "allowed" by the Generals to leave Burma..............and NEVER to return

This Lady choosed to stay for the cause of her people and the country and in my simple mind that's an unbelievable and courageous thing to do.

So: let's try and send her that birthday card; it's about the least we can do to support her...

Here:

http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/aungsansuukyi.php

Latest News:

http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/pm/weblog.php?id=P212

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

I will translate this message/post/topic in Dutch and place in the Netherlands on some 'fora'. The Dutch are well know for individual actions and hopefully she will get lot's of cards from the Netherlands [also].

Done ...

Thanks a lot my fellow 'FlyingDutchman'...great job.

Pls let me know the dutch fora.

LaoPo

[baboon]

United Nations?Dont make me laugh.Look at the bang up job they did with Pol Pot,and continue doing today with Robert Mugabe,Syria and Iran.

[farangsay]

Dalai Lama honours Tintin and Tutu

The Dalai Lama and Archbishop Tutu are old friends

Comic strip adventure hero Tintin and Archbishop Desmond Tutu have been honoured by the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.

At a ceremony in Brussels, he presented a Tibetan butter lamp to the Herge Foundation representing Tintin books.

The book Tintin in Tibet was published in the same year that the Dalai Lama fled the Himalayan kingdom.

He also presented a lamp and silk scarf to fellow Nobel Peace Prize laureate, Archbishop Tutu of South Africa.

They came in out of the Brussels rain - two men in their seventies, old friends - one in a black suit with a silver cross, the other in the red robes of a Tibetan monk.

Archbishop Tutu helped end apartheid in South Africa. The Dalai Lama is still campaigning against China's military occupation of Tibet.

We used to say to the apartheid government... Come: join the winning side. His Holiness and the Tibetan people are on the winning side

The awards ceremony took place under tight security, at a 19th-Century concert hall in central Brussels.

The Dalai Lama draped a silk scarf around the archbishop's neck and presented him with a Tibetan butter lamp: the Light of Truth Award from the International Campaign for Tibet.

In his speech, Archbishop Tutu paid tribute to his friend.

"I give great thanks to God that he has created a Dalai Lama," he said. "Do you really think, as some have argued, that God will be saying: 'You know, that guy, the Dalai Lama, is not bad. What a pity he's not a Christian'?"

A preacher with the timing of a stand-up comic, the archbishop continued: "I don't think that is the case - because, you see, God is not a Christian."

The Dalai Lama, said Archbishop Tutu, "has a childlike, boyish, impish, mischievousness. And I have to try and make him behave properly, like a holy man!"

We never thought that this story of friendship would have a resonance more than 40 years later

The Dalai Lama rocked with laughter on his chair and wrapped his red robe more closely over his shoulder.

There was also an award for the Herge Foundation, established in memory of the author of the Tintin cartoon adventure books. Tintin in Tibet is one of the most popular in the series.

It is not a political book: instead it tells the story of Tintin's friendship with a Chinese boy, Chang, whose plane crashes in the Himalayas. When Tintin goes to rescue him, he encounters Tibetan monks and the mythical yeti - the Abominable Snowman.

The award was accepted by Herge's widow, Fanny Rodwell. Her voice trembled slightly as she spoke.

"We never thought that this story of friendship would have a resonance more than 40 years later," she said.

Another shaven-headed monk knelt by the Dalai Lama's chair, whispering a translation of Mme Rodwell's speech, which was in French.

When the book was published in Chinese, it was Tintin who needed rescuing. The Chinese authorities had renamed it Tintin in China's Tibet.

When Herge and his publishers protested, the Chinese backed down. The book is now sold in China under its original name.

The Dalai Lama said Tibetan Buddhism was a heritage "not just for Tibetans: it can do good for billions of people in our modern world".

"The Tibetan state is located between two of the world's great powers, India and China. Good relations between these powers are crucial for world peace. Tibet has an important role to play," he said.

And he urged his supporters not to regard the Chinese as their enemies.

Archbishop Tutu drew an explicit comparison between the anti-apartheid movement and the campaign for Tibetan autonomy from China.

"We used to say to the apartheid government: you may have the guns, you may have all this power, but you have already lost. Come: join the winning side. His Holiness and the Tibetan people are on the winning side," he said.

Burma hopes

Outside, there were free copies of Tintin in Tibet available, but only in Esperanto. One of the monks scurried past, clutching his copy under one arm.

Archbishop Tutu dedicated his award to his fellow Nobel peace laureate, the Burmese opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi, who is under house arrest from the military government.

"Can you beat it?" Archbishop Tutu asked incredulously. "The military junta are armed to the teeth and they are scared of a little woman. They run away from Rangoon and hide somewhere in the forest, because she is good, and they are scared."

But he looked forward to the day when he and the Dalai Lama would be able to attend her inauguration as Burma's president.

"Freedom," he concluded, "is unstoppable."

BBC News site 2nd June 2006

The red bit seemed relevant , the entirety is just for context.

[LaoPo]

Burma hopes

Outside, there were free copies of Tintin in Tibet available, but only in Esperanto. One of the monks scurried past, clutching his copy under one arm.

Archbishop Tutu dedicated his award to his fellow Nobel peace laureate, the Burmese opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi, who is under house arrest from the military government.

"Can you beat it?" Archbishop Tutu asked incredulously. "The military junta are armed to the teeth and they are scared of a little woman. They run away from Rangoon and hide somewhere in the forest, because she is good, and they are scared."

But he looked forward to the day when he and the Dalai Lama would be able to attend her inauguration as Burma's president.

"Freedom," he concluded, "is unstoppable."

BBC News site 2nd June 2006

The red bit seemed relevant , the entirety is just for context.

Freedom?...that might be true but I fear it will be a long way before the Burmese are free

LaoPo

[farangsay]

Freedom?...that might be true but I fear it will be a long way before the Burmese are free

LaoPo

DON'T BE SO NEGATIVE !

Their holinesses might not be powerbrokers , but their comments get

reported worldwide.

One of the problems with this sort of situation is to keep it in the public eye.

[LaoPo]

Freedom?...that might be true but I fear it will be a long way before the Burmese are free

LaoPo

DON'T BE SO NEGATIVE !

Their holinesses might not be powerbrokers , but their comments get

reported worldwide.

One of the problems with this sort of situation is to keep it in the public eye.

There is a difference between negative and realistic...

Public eye: that's why I try to keep the discussion going about Aung San Suu Kyi.

LaoPo

[ourmanflint]

Lao Po.. thats cool if you're doing this for said reason....

I am going to Myanmar for the first time in September to take photos to sell to travel and tourism orgs worldwide. I really do belive that closing off Burma in any way is a backward step, what we must all do is encourage as many people to go as possible. Spending money with ordinary Burmese is the only way things will change. IMHO!

[LaoPo]

Lao Po.. thats cool if you're doing this for said reason....

I am going to Myanmar for the first time in September to take photos to sell to travel and tourism orgs worldwide. I really do belive that closing off Burma in any way is a backward step, what we must all do is encourage as many people to go as possible. Spending money with ordinary Burmese is the only way things will change. IMHO!

Mrs. Aung San Suu Kyi thinks that's a very bad idea...going to Burma (and spending money there)!

Excerpt from this link:

http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/aboutburma/tourism.html

"Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, Nobel Peace Prize winner and leader of Burma's democracy movement, agrees that tourists should not visit Burma until there is a restoration of democratic rule. "We think it is too early for either tourists or investment or aid to come pouring into Burma," she told visitors to her Rangoon residence in November 1995. "We would like to see that these things are conditional on genuine progress towards democratization." In 2002 Aung San Suu Kyi reiterated her call for a tourism boycott. In an interview with the BBC, she said: ""Our policy with regard to tourism has not changed, which is say that we have not yet come to the point where we encourage people to come to Burma as tourists."

Spending money in Burma is exactly what she is opposing to, as a vast percentage of every dime you spend in Burma is ending up in the pockets of the Regime; one way or another.

Why do you think the Burma campaign is strongly opposing to companies doing business with Burma?

Please read a little more about the Burmacampaign and take a decision after that; think twice

LaoPo

[ourmanflint]

I didn't say I agreed with her!!!

I have read lots about this and decided to use my own common sense... I think not spending money with government run agencies etc is probably a good idea, but Ms. Kyi has her own agenda and I have mine.

[LaoPo]

I didn't say I agreed with her!!!

I have read lots about this and decided to use my own common sense... I think not spending money with government run agencies etc is probably a good idea, but Ms. Kyi has her own agenda and I have mine.

Your smiley is a little inappropiate using a topic which is about a Lady who is under house-arrest for 10 years...isn't it?

I'm not sure but I have the feeling that Mrs. Suu Kyi's knowledge and advises about Burma are more knowledgable than yours....

She was awarded a Nobel Price for peace...

LaoPo

[Rinrada]

FREEDOM OF THE CITY - EDINBURGH

Saturday 18th June: Edinburgh.

The City of Edinburgh Council will hold a ceremony to award Aung San Suu Kyi Freedom of the City.

There will be a presentation at 11am, a tree planting ceremony at 1pm, and public events in the afternoon.

Well done lassie

[jdinasia]

I didn't say I agreed with her!!!

I have read lots about this and decided to use my own common sense... I think not spending money with government run agencies etc is probably a good idea, but Ms. Kyi has her own agenda and I have mine.

Your smiley is a little inappropiate using a topic which is about a Lady who is under house-arrest for 10 years...isn't it?

I'm not sure but I have the feeling that Mrs. Suu Kyi's knowledge and advises about Burma are more knowledgable than yours....

She was awarded a Nobel Price for peace...

LaoPo

Very simply .... Ourmanflint is heading over there to make cash of the backs of the downtrodden ... and help bring in foriegn cash reserves to support a totalitarian government that does things like imprison Nobel Peace Prize laureates ...

[ourmanflint]

That's exactly right... wow!! How insightful... I'll probably abuse the locals as well, smuggle some Pigeon Rubies that I'll swindle from the peasants that risked their lives digging them up in caves, wave the Burmese flag and have tea with the Generals, and talk about how is best to bring Suu Kyi into disrespect and succeed in alienating her from the masses...

Then I'll run all the way to the piggy bank!!!

Cheers...

[jimbob]

When I have been to Myanmar I have seen lots of people ecstatic to see foreign faces. If you spend money with small stores and food stalls the money will go to the people who need it. Economic sanctions impoverish the people, not the politicians. The politicians make their money selling drugs and other things.

If people can barely have enough to eat then how will they ever be able to change the government? If people go to Myanmar and are selective in how they spend their money they can help the people who need it.

[jdinasia]

When I have been to Myanmar I have seen lots of people ecstatic to see foreign faces. If you spend money with small stores and food stalls the money will go to the people who need it. Economic sanctions impoverish the people, not the politicians. The politicians make their money selling drugs and other things.

If people can barely have enough to eat then how will they ever be able to change the government? If people go to Myanmar and are selective in how they spend their money they can help the people who need it.

Go back and read what the imprisoned leader says about being a tourist there ....

and realize that every dollar you spend in Burma benefits the repressive totalitarian government illegally in control of the country.

Yes trying to use non gov't businesses is a step IF you are going to go ... but better is NOT GOING ... and being active with the protest of the current Junta ...

it would be nice to see enough pressure brought to bear to force western companies out of Myanmar ... there would be a sudden collapse of the feeble Gov't and then freedom would follow.

[Rinrada]

When I have been to Myanmar I have seen lots of people ecstatic to see foreign faces. If you spend money with small stores and food stalls the money will go to the people who need it. Economic sanctions impoverish the people, not the politicians. The politicians make their money selling drugs and other things.

If people can barely have enough to eat then how will they ever be able to change the government? If people go to Myanmar and are selective in how they spend their money they can help the people who need it.

Go back and read what the imprisoned leader says about being a tourist there ....

and realize that every dollar you spend in Burma benefits the repressive totalitarian government illegally in control of the country.

Yes trying to use non gov't businesses is a step IF you are going to go ... but better is NOT GOING ... and being active with the protest of the current Junta ...

it would be nice to see enough pressure brought to bear to force western companies out of Myanmar ... there would be a sudden collapse of the feeble Gov't and then freedom would follow.

a few respectable household names that are maintaining this FILTHY regime....

Honestly Guv...never heard of any of them......

DIRTY LIST........DIRTY COUNTRIES.......

Abercrombie & Kent...Jolly Holiday company.....UK

Alcatel...Mobile Phones....................................France

Ben Line Agencies is a Scottish shipping line......Scottish

Chevron ....OIL...............................................US

China National Petroleum Corporation...............China

Daewoo International......................................South Korea.

Diethelm........................................................Swiss.

Snamprogetti..................................................Italian...

Essar Group....................................................Indian..

Frontier Drilling...............................................Norway..

Hapag-Lloyd...................................................German

Helicopters ....................................................New Zealand

Hutchison Whampoa/3 Mobile...........................Hong Kong...

Ivanhoe Mines................................................Canadian

Maersk...........................................................Danish..

Mitsui ............................................................Japanese

Peregrine Adventures......................................Australian...

Petronas........................................................Malaysia

PTTEP -..........................................................Thai.

Rolls-Royce.....................................................UK

Siemens ........................................................German..

Total Oil..........................................................France....

[jdinasia]

Yeah ... decent people everywjere should bring pressure to bear on the Biz's operating out of their countries to cease funding the regime there ....

however with the price of crude oil ....

[Octaviousbp]

Ivanhoe Mines................................................Canadian

Even worse than Ivanhoe mines operating in Burma is the fact that every Canadian citizen that receives a paycheck supports the regime. Our Canadian Pension Plan (CPP) invests in Ivanhoe Mines. Afterall, slavery yields fairly decent profits.

As far as tourism goes in Burma, NCUB (the government-in-waiting) recommends that people visit Burma. However they oppose participating in any type of tourist package deal, as these are put on by government run businesses. Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's request for people to avoid Burma was made in the 1990's, when the junta was subsidizing a good portion of their regime on profits made off of large scale tourism packages aimed primarily at the Chinese. Small scale tourists and backpackers that don't engage in package tourism are considered beneficial as they can spend directly in privately owned establishments. This is even more so now that the FEC is not used.

Prime Minister Sein Win also stated that foreign tourists are a boon to the psyche of the people in that they do not feel so isolated and can be hopeful that conscientious tourists will help spread the word of the plite of the Burmese people.

[tayto]

Lao Po.. thats cool if you're doing this for said reason....

I am going to Myanmar for the first time in September to take photos to sell to travel and tourism orgs worldwide. I really do belive that closing off Burma in any way is a backward step, what we must all do is encourage as many people to go as possible. Spending money with ordinary Burmese is the only way things will change. IMHO!

How do you intend to spend money with ordinary Burmeese?

The junta control everything down to the tax on toilet rolls.

The problem with your solution is that your money is mostly going to the regime, unless you want to travel illegally.

I can arrange this if you want but it is dangerous.

[LaoPo]

As far as tourism goes in Burma, NCUB (the government-in-waiting) recommends that people visit Burma. However they oppose participating in any type of tourist package deal, as these are put on by government run businesses. Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's request for people to avoid Burma was made in the 1990's, when the junta was subsidizing a good portion of their regime on profits made off of large scale tourism packages aimed primarily at the Chinese. Small scale tourists and backpackers that don't engage in package tourism are considered beneficial as they can spend directly in privately owned establishments. This is even more so now that the FEC is not used.

1. Where did you get the info that the NCUB recommends that?

2. You're wrong here. One way or another the 'Regime' will ALWAYS benefit from the expenditures of the tourists

3. I suggest you read this:

http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/action_holiday.html

Excerpts from this site:

""Tourism provides the dictatorship with millions of pounds every year, while forced labour has been used to develop many tourist facilities. For these reasons, Aung San Suu Kyi has asked tourists not to visit Burma.""

""Tourism to Burma helps sustain one of the most brutal and destructive regimes in the world.""

""Aung San Suu Kyi, the NLD and Burma’s exiled government have all asked tourists not to visit Burma. Tourism in Burma provides the dictatorship with millions of pounds every year, while the development of tourism has escalated human rights abuses.""

""Official figures estimate Burma earns $100 million a year from tourism and in 2001-2002, just two of Burma’s top tourist attractions generated more than US$1.3 million in entrance fees. There is simply no way to operate in Burma or visit the country without providing funds to the dictatorship""

Do I need to put more excerpts...or are you willing to read it for yourself?

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

I am going to Myanmar for the first time in September to take photos to sell to travel and tourism orgs worldwide. I really do belive that closing off Burma in any way is a backward step, what we must all do is encourage as many people to go as possible. Spending money with ordinary Burmese is the only way things will change. IMHO!

You know, I'm disgusted with your idea....selling photos (worldwide) to travel- and tourism agencies and thus promoting Burma and making more money for the regime...

Such an idea or venture belongs on the dirty list as well; just like the big companies doing business with the regime....

Maybe you're an idealist trying to help a poor few Burmese but than you don't have a clue about how (dictatorial) economics functions.

In fact you're promoting tourism to Burma and that's exactly what Mrs. Aungs San Kuu Kyi is OPPOSING to!!!

See also my previous post about tourism to Burma.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

One last attempt....:

"""

Burma’s democratically elected Government and pro-democracy movement have asked for a tourism boycott.

The National League for Democracy (NLD), Burma's legitimate democratic government led by Aung San Suu Kyi, first called for tourists and the tourism industry to stay away from Burma in 1995. Their position remains unchanged today. In an interview with the Burma Campaign UK in 2002, Aung San Suu Kyi confirmed that the NLD’s policy on the boycott had not changed: “The position remains the same.” In 2003 the NLD issued a statement to confirm that “the present situation has not reached the extent that tourists should be encouraged to visit Myanmar (Burma).” Burma’s Government in exile - the National Coalition Government of the Union of Burma (NCGUB) also supports the boycott.

It is a position that has the backing of exile Burmese democracy groups around the world, the UK Government and the European Union. In February 2004 UK Foreign Office Minister Mike O’Brien said that "because there are kickbacks and investments by generals in hotels and other parts of the tourism industry, people who go on tourist trips to Burma are in a sense actively supporting the regime and enabling those generals to receive financial advantage from it.”

Tourists and tour operators have generally respected the call for a tourism boycott, with only a handful of small companies now operating tours to Burma"""

source:

http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/action_holiday.html

LaoPo

[Octaviousbp]

1. Where did you get the info that the NCUB recommends that?

2. You're wrong here. One way or another the 'Regime' will ALWAYS benefit from the expenditures of the tourists

3. I suggest you read this:

http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/action_holiday.html

1. This information came from a personal conversation I had with the Prime Minister. Because of my work with the Burmese community in my hometown, I was able to have a brief audience with him after a speaking engagement. Therefore, sorry, no link. However I am sure someone in his office would be glad to answer any specific questions you may have via email.

2. While it is true that the junta will see profit from any purchase made within its borders by tourists, this profit is fractionary compared to the benefit it would produce for the private owner. Don't get me wrong, I am against large scale tourism completely, however, if people want to go see the atrocities that are going on in Burma with their own eyes, who are we to stop them. One of the largest impediments to Burmese advocacy at the global level is that it falls on deaf ears. The more people that become aware of the situation in Burma, the more receptive they may become. So in this regard, if you are going to Burma, don't just snap a few pictures as if it was Disneyland... write about it. Become educated about the situation before you leave for Burma, and when you return tell the world what is going on there. This makes our job easier (those trying to facilitate change within their own countries). Unfortunately, on the global stage, Burma falls under the category of "out of sight, out of mind" for most people.

3. Believe me, I have read it, and know the context in which it was written. I am in agreeance with it as well, however some things are not so simple and black and white.

Lastly, this is just my opinion. As this thread reflects, even amongst those that seek democratic reform in Burma there are antagonisms and conflict. This is symbolic of the hardships that the democratic coalition faces in their attempts to see structural change in Burma.

Edited June 14, 2006 by Octaviousbp

[Octaviousbp]

In regards to the Burma Campaign info: This is a common position, no doubt about. The rational explained to me by a Burmese colleague was that boycotts (economically state to state as well as tourist) are justified and proactive in that the Burmese people are poor already. They are survivors and will be able to continue surviving as they have since 1962. However a boycott will hurt the Burmeses elite, and may result in change. As I mentioned in my last post, I am in agreeance with this, however, a complete 100% boycott of "tourism" will also serve to leave the rest of the world in the dark. I guess part of the problem is the word "tourism", in that I am not thinking of vacationing... I hope this helps clarify.

[jdinasia]

NGO's (yes I know many folks hate them ... I love them ... though there are org's I hate) can do the travelling into and out of Myanmar ... get word out ... deal with the rest as well .... It doesn't take 'tourism' which bolsters the current regime ...

what kind of 'tourism' do you think is acceptable?

[Octaviousbp]

NGO's (yes I know many folks hate them ... I love them ... though there are org's I hate) can do the travelling into and out of Myanmar ... get word out ... deal with the rest as well .... It doesn't take 'tourism' which bolsters the current regime ...

what kind of 'tourism' do you think is acceptable?

I am of a similar opinion of NGOs, though I wouldn't go as far to say I love them. Rather I appreciate the ability for progressive ones to have a real impact on social change. Emphasis on some of them.

My undestanding of NGOs in Burma, and it is a very preliminary understanding, is that the junta is well aware of the NGOs ability to raise ruckus, and therefore make things very difficult for them. Furthermore, where are these people sleeping/eating, and why can't individuals do the same? I think NGOs are helpful to the cause, but should not be looked to exclusively for raising global awareness.

As far as what kind of "tourism" I think is acceptable, as I stated earlier, echoing the Prime Minister's comments, I think individuals and small groups who take the time to educate themselves before they go and pass on the knowledge they've gained upon their return can be beneficial. I have red 3 books recently that spoke of many of the injustices occuring in Burma, which would not have been possible had the authors not dared to venture in, for a first hand account. I think the advantages gained by the writing of these books outweigh the potential harm caused by the minimal economic support of the regime. Also, I don't think only authors are acceptable, but anyone who can spread the word. A letter to a local MP or Senator complete with first hand accounts can, believe it or not, go a long way.

As I mentioned earlier, just my 2 cents.