Foreign media strive to avoid simplistic portrayal of Thai woes

[jayboy]

No that won't wash.Abhisit may have pretended to distance himself with the aim of having his cake and eating it.But the reality is that the Democrat leadership is inextricably linked to Suthep 's mob and thus morally compromised.

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With all the attempted washing you yourself have done over the years with regards Thaksin and the red shirts, and their sordid, inextricable links, guessing you must be all out of washing powder anyway.

So, out of any credible arguments or indeed any interesting points at all you resort to puerile vapourings.Please don't confuse vulgar abuse with witty invective.

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My point was clear and all that your crabby response to it has done is expose the nerve that it struck.

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But you didn't make a point or even a coherent statement.Some gibberish about my washing Thaksin.If you have a serious contribution I'd be happy to consider it but in the mean time grow up.

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[Dogmatix]

I used to think that Jonathan Head's pro-Thaksinite reports on the BBC were rock bottoms as far as red foreign journalists were concerned but this one from Thomas Fuller in the NYT now takes the biscuit http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/15/world/asia/thai-police-clear-areas-of-protesters-as-their-numbers-ebb.html?_r=0

He suggests it is unfair for the NACC to probe Yingluck promptly over the rice pledging scandal which is perhaps the most egregious fraud ever perpetrated on 1.4 million poverty stricken farmers with catastrophic results. He even stoops so low as to imply that the Crown Property Bureau is supporting the protests.

I hope that being able to obtain a Thai visa and work permit are not important for his career. Perhaps he can find employment with Robert Amsterdam, if he can no longer travel to Thailand.

"He even stoops so low as to imply that the Crown Property Bureau is supporting the protests." Huh - are you saying the foreign press shouldn't report what the Thai media has claimed, that Sontiyan is an advisor to the CPB? So you're advocating self-censorship for the foreign press despite the fact that even the Thai media has reported it? Strange comment, but if you don't believe in a free press, understandable I suppose.

As for the rice pledging scheme - perhaps it'd be better to separate out the issues of corruption and non-payment because they're not really related. The corruption was certainly perpetrated on the Thai taxpayer, as is all other corruption. But the farmers benefited from the scheme when they were getting paid. So the fraud wasn't 'perpetrated on' them. They were getting more money, perhaps not as much as they should have due to the corruption issue, but more money nevertheless. The non-payment is a seperate issue which relates to incompetence rather than corruption. Incompetence because they should've expanded the scheme and made sure they borrowed the money before house was dissolved. Of course, now their hands are tied. They've tried to exercise the few options they have to get hold of the money and have only managed to come up with a fraction so far. It can't be fully resolved until parliamentary quorum is achieved.

The defaulted payments are linked to incompetence, corruption and the fact that it was an unsustainable policy in the first place. If the government had really been selling rice to China and others, there would be more cash to pay farmers with. In the not too distant future it will turn out that about 25% of the stockpile has been stolen or was never there in the first place. Add to that the rice that will be unsaleable due to spoilage. Apart from all that it is not clear on the incompetence side why the government didn't secure funding to pay for the shortfall well before payment became due in October. They intentionally defaulted on the farmers and two months into the default didn't bother to secure the funding before dissolving parliament after which they knew it would be impossible to do it legally.

[rixalex]

But you didn't make a point or even a coherent statement.Some gibberish about my washing Thaksin.If you have a serious contribution I'd be happy to consider it but in the mean time grow up.

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My point was very clear. No need to get ratty just because you are feigning comprehension difficulties.

To humour your charade, and to repeat the point already made, it's ironic to hear the same person who has consistently either downplayed or flat out denied blatant links between Thaksin and the red shirts, Thaksin and the UDD, Thaksin and PTP, Thaksin and Yingluck, Thaksin and the riots of 2009 and 2010, with oft repeated mantras such as "this isn't about Thaksin", chastising someone else for failing to acknowledge blatant links between the Dems and Suthep's mob.

Edited February 17, 2014 by rixalex

[focus27]

This page should be framed, what with fahlang from all directions hitting their articulate stride by actually discussing issues, underlying reasons, and being realistic, among other intelligent and level headed posts. There remains of course a pot shot post here and there but on the whole certain notable fahlang of varied colors have taken to waxing eloquent, so I hope other posters will join me in taking notice and getting up to the new speed at TVF.

Now if only someone out there would listen

There's comfort in the unwavering fact that to Western journalists democracy is not downwardly negotiable and that choking voters puts the perps outside the margins. As to democracy in Thailand, even as it is,,money can't buy everything when there are people who actually want to vote, to include those who voted no vote.

The diversity of posters here have a lot to choose from of what each likes based on those who did brave the elements to vote.

I'm not entirely sure that is true. Every constitution is like a decision-making program; the assumption of a tripartite division of powers means that there are always going to be situations that cannot be resolved within that constitution. There are then only two options: let unresolved issues keep going round in circles and hope that humans will get tired of this and think of a way out; or write into the constitution that unresolved issues be resolved by a higher, undemocratic power.

Look at Italy at the moment (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26222179), where the President is about to give the Prime Ministership to an unelected 'outsider' in the hope of sorting out Italy's chronic corruption and dysfunctional economy. It is not seen as an attack on democratic principles, but it is a way to resolve democratic deadlocks - and Italy has had many of those in the last 100 years!

Just because Thailand may be seen as a 'fledgling' democracy - even though they've been at it for 80 years - doesn't mean we always have to castigate it for not going down the road of a 'perfect' democracy. Although the problems in Thailand and Italy are slightly different, they both suffer from long-standing ingrained corruption at all levels of society. The problem with widespread corruption is not just the waste of public money but that individuals end up with covert relationships and obligations that are different to their public office. And that means that public administrations have essentially been taken over by private interests.

How many countries are there where that is not an on-going problem?

Corporations and allies like democratic regimes because they are easy to undermine, but they will happily deal with a variety of autocratic regimes so long as they are perceived to be stable... and corruptible, so long as they don't talk too much about them to their national populations. What they don't like is a comedy-of-errors as being played out in Thailand.

[jayboy]

But you didn't make a point or even a coherent statement.Some gibberish about my washing Thaksin.If you have a serious contribution I'd be happy to consider it but in the mean time grow up.

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My point was very clear. No need to get ratty just because you are feigning comprehension difficulties.

To humour your charade, and to repeat the point already made, it's ironic to hear the same person who has consistently either downplayed or flat out denied blatant links between Thaksin and the red shirts, Thaksin and the UDD, Thaksin and PTP, Thaksin and Yingluck, Thaksin and the riots of 2009 and 2010, with oft repeated mantras such as "this isn't about Thaksin", chastising someone else for failing to acknowledge blatant links between the Dems and Suthep's mob.

I have never denied links between Thaksin and the redshirt movement/UDD/Yingluck/PTP/street protests.To do so would be absurd.I have pointed out however several times that the Thaksin issue is not the most significant contributory factor in the current political divisions in Thailand.Most serious commentators would agree with me, specifically that Thaksin is an opportunist and a catalyst - taking advantage of a shift in Thailand's social and political tectonic plates.

If you cannot grasp this I'm not really able to help you further.You may as well blather on like some dim urban housewife that it's all about Thaksin's wickedness.I'm sure you can find plenty of kindred spirits.

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[Mackie]

But you didn't make a point or even a coherent statement.Some gibberish about my washing Thaksin.If you have a serious contribution I'd be happy to consider it but in the mean time grow up.

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My point was very clear. No need to get ratty just because you are feigning comprehension difficulties.

To humour your charade, and to repeat the point already made, it's ironic to hear the same person who has consistently either downplayed or flat out denied blatant links between Thaksin and the red shirts, Thaksin and the UDD, Thaksin and PTP, Thaksin and Yingluck, Thaksin and the riots of 2009 and 2010, with oft repeated mantras such as "this isn't about Thaksin", chastising someone else for failing to acknowledge blatant links between the Dems and Suthep's mob.

I have never denied links between Thaksin and the redshirt movement/UDD/Yingluck/PTP/street protests.To do so would be absurd.I have pointed out however several times that the Thaksin issue is not the most significant contributory factor in the current political divisions in Thailand.Most serious commentators would agree with me, specifically that Thaksin is an opportunist and a catalyst - taking advantage of a shift in Thailand's social and political tectonic plates.

If you cannot grasp this I'm not really able to help you further.You may as well blather on like some dim urban housewife that it's all about Thaksin's wickedness.I'm sure you can find plenty of kindred spirits.

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It's really hilarious. You don't need to help anyone. You need to help yourself. Everything started with the amnesty bill which was purely designed to whitewash Thaksin's numerous crimes. It also happens that the convicted criminal and fugitive is running the government via social networks. At least acknowledge irrefutable facts of life. Get a grip, will you?

[Dogmatix]

I used to think that Jonathan Head's pro-Thaksinite reports on the BBC were rock bottoms as far as red foreign journalists were concerned but this one from Thomas Fuller in the NYT now takes the biscuit http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/15/world/asia/thai-police-clear-areas-of-protesters-as-their-numbers-ebb.html?_r=0

He suggests it is unfair for the NACC to probe Yingluck promptly over the rice pledging scandal which is perhaps the most egregious fraud ever perpetrated on 1.4 million poverty stricken farmers with catastrophic results. He even stoops so low as to imply that the Crown Property Bureau is supporting the protests.

I hope that being able to obtain a Thai visa and work permit are not important for his career. Perhaps he can find employment with Robert Amsterdam, if he can no longer travel to Thailand.

"He even stoops so low as to imply that the Crown Property Bureau is supporting the protests." Huh - are you saying the foreign press shouldn't report what the Thai media has claimed, that Sontiyan is an advisor to the CPB? So you're advocating self-censorship for the foreign press despite the fact that even the Thai media has reported it? Strange comment, but if you don't believe in a free press, understandable I suppose.

As for the rice pledging scheme - perhaps it'd be better to separate out the issues of corruption and non-payment because they're not really related. The corruption was certainly perpetrated on the Thai taxpayer, as is all other corruption. But the farmers benefited from the scheme when they were getting paid. So the fraud wasn't 'perpetrated on' them. They were getting more money, perhaps not as much as they should have due to the corruption issue, but more money nevertheless. The non-payment is a seperate issue which relates to incompetence rather than corruption. Incompetence because they should've expanded the scheme and made sure they borrowed the money before house was dissolved. Of course, now their hands are tied. They've tried to exercise the few options they have to get hold of the money and have only managed to come up with a fraction so far. It can't be fully resolved until parliamentary quorum is achieved.

Fuller describes Sonthiyarn thus right up front in his article, "Sonthiyarn Chuenruethai-naitham, who has been described by the Thai media as an adviser to the Crown Property Bureau, the agency that manages the massive royal fortune,..."

He doesn't mention anything else about Sonthiyarn's professional life, deliberately trying to the make impression that his profession was being an adviser to the Crown Property Bureau. None of the references in Thai media to Sonthiyarn's connection with the CPB seem to suggest that is an adviser to it. This one from Kom Chad Luek, which is typical, suggests that the CPB's move into media via Siam TV provided Sonthiyarn with an employment opportunity before he moved on to INN which is rather different from being an advisor to the CPB. http://www.komchadluek.net/detail/20140211/178693.html#.UwIig1kYvcs

Can you cite any Thai media references that support Fuller's assertion that Sonthiyarn has been described by Thai media as an adviser to the CPB? Does Fuller read Thai or was his research only second hand hearsay?

[ponchi]

when i look the BBC or CNN i am very sad about how the falang talk about my country.

they do not understand the problem we have here.

i think better to shut up and let the thai people fix the thaksin problem!

[rixalex]

But you didn't make a point or even a coherent statement.Some gibberish about my washing Thaksin.If you have a serious contribution I'd be happy to consider it but in the mean time grow up.

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My point was very clear. No need to get ratty just because you are feigning comprehension difficulties.

To humour your charade, and to repeat the point already made, it's ironic to hear the same person who has consistently either downplayed or flat out denied blatant links between Thaksin and the red shirts, Thaksin and the UDD, Thaksin and PTP, Thaksin and Yingluck, Thaksin and the riots of 2009 and 2010, with oft repeated mantras such as "this isn't about Thaksin", chastising someone else for failing to acknowledge blatant links between the Dems and Suthep's mob.

I have never denied links between Thaksin and the redshirt movement/UDD/Yingluck/PTP/street protests.To do so would be absurd.I have pointed out however several times that the Thaksin issue is not the most significant contributory factor in the current political divisions in Thailand.Most serious commentators would agree with me, specifically that Thaksin is an opportunist and a catalyst - taking advantage of a shift in Thailand's social and political tectonic plates.

If you cannot grasp this I'm not really able to help you further.You may as well blather on like some dim urban housewife that it's all about Thaksin's wickedness.I'm sure you can find plenty of kindred spirits.

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Now you have switched to making straw man arguments. I didn't accuse you of denying all links. You don't. You deny certain ones, and downplay others. And I have made no comment on what the "single most significant contributory factor is, *bla bla bla*", nor whether "Thaksin is an opportunist or a catalyst.. *condescending drivel drivel drivel*".

[jayboy]

But you didn't make a point or even a coherent statement.Some gibberish about my washing Thaksin.If you have a serious contribution I'd be happy to consider it but in the mean time grow up.

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My point was very clear. No need to get ratty just because you are feigning comprehension difficulties.

To humour your charade, and to repeat the point already made, it's ironic to hear the same person who has consistently either downplayed or flat out denied blatant links between Thaksin and the red shirts, Thaksin and the UDD, Thaksin and PTP, Thaksin and Yingluck, Thaksin and the riots of 2009 and 2010, with oft repeated mantras such as "this isn't about Thaksin", chastising someone else for failing to acknowledge blatant links between the Dems and Suthep's mob.

I have never denied links between Thaksin and the redshirt movement/UDD/Yingluck/PTP/street protests.To do so would be absurd.I have pointed out however several times that the Thaksin issue is not the most significant contributory factor in the current political divisions in Thailand.Most serious commentators would agree with me, specifically that Thaksin is an opportunist and a catalyst - taking advantage of a shift in Thailand's social and political tectonic plates.

If you cannot grasp this I'm not really able to help you further.You may as well blather on like some dim urban housewife that it's all about Thaksin's wickedness.I'm sure you can find plenty of kindred spirits.

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Now you have switched to making straw man arguments. I didn't accuse you of denying all links. You don't. You deny certain ones, and downplay others. And I have made no comment on what the "single most significant contributory factor is, *bla bla bla*", nor whether "Thaksin is an opportunist or a catalyst.. *condescending drivel drivel drivel*".

You might wish to review your original post before starting to deny your earlier comments.I'm not however interested in this kind of content free spat so in the politest possible way could you vent your spleen with someone else.

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[rixalex]

You might wish to review your original post before starting to deny your earlier comments.I'm not however interested in this kind of content free spat so in the politest possible way could you vent your spleen with someone else.

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I know precisely what I stated and I am not denying any comments I have made. Nor am I "venting my spleen". I simply brought to your attention how remarkably well you are able to discern certain clear and obvious links that exist between the Dems and Suthep, and yet how conveniently clouded your vision has become at times in the past in discerning certain clear and obvious links that have existed between Thaksin and those individuals/groups/incidents mentioned. That's all.

[jayboy]

You might wish to review your original post before starting to deny your earlier comments.I'm not however interested in this kind of content free spat so in the politest possible way could you vent your spleen with someone else.

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I know precisely what I stated and I am not denying any comments I have made. Nor am I "venting my spleen". I simply brought to your attention how remarkably well you are able to discern certain clear and obvious links that exist between the Dems and Suthep, and yet how conveniently clouded your vision has become at times in the past in discerning certain clear and obvious links that have existed between Thaksin and those individuals/groups/incidents mentioned. That's all.

The whole world knows the links between the Democrats and Suthep so I am hardly unique. I have never denied the links between Thaksin and the groups mentioned - not least because to do so would have been absurd.If you have any evidence show it.Otherwise pipe down.

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[jayboy]

But you didn't make a point or even a coherent statement.Some gibberish about my washing Thaksin.If you have a serious contribution I'd be happy to consider it but in the mean time grow up.

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My point was very clear. No need to get ratty just because you are feigning comprehension difficulties.

To humour your charade, and to repeat the point already made, it's ironic to hear the same person who has consistently either downplayed or flat out denied blatant links between Thaksin and the red shirts, Thaksin and the UDD, Thaksin and PTP, Thaksin and Yingluck, Thaksin and the riots of 2009 and 2010, with oft repeated mantras such as "this isn't about Thaksin", chastising someone else for failing to acknowledge blatant links between the Dems and Suthep's mob.

I have never denied links between Thaksin and the redshirt movement/UDD/Yingluck/PTP/street protests.To do so would be absurd.I have pointed out however several times that the Thaksin issue is not the most significant contributory factor in the current political divisions in Thailand.Most serious commentators would agree with me, specifically that Thaksin is an opportunist and a catalyst - taking advantage of a shift in Thailand's social and political tectonic plates.

If you cannot grasp this I'm not really able to help you further.You may as well blather on like some dim urban housewife that it's all about Thaksin's wickedness.I'm sure you can find plenty of kindred spirits.

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It's really hilarious. You don't need to help anyone. You need to help yourself. Everything started with the amnesty bill which was purely designed to whitewash Thaksin's numerous crimes. It also happens that the convicted criminal and fugitive is running the government via social networks. At least acknowledge irrefutable facts of life. Get a grip, will you?

Got it now.Thaksin runs the government from abroad though I think I knew that already.But thanks for the insight that "everything started" with the amnesty initiative.And to think that I once thought the crisis had deep social and political causes stretching back for decades.

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[DavidBonnie]

whatever way you try to cut it . . .Suthep is finished and he has no one but himself to blame. Regardless of the government's percieved wrongdoings he pooped the coop in preventing the elections because of his hunger for power. Corruption was flourishing in Thailand long before Taksin so to blame all the country's woes on his administration is facile.

[ponchi]

whatever way you try to cut it . . .Suthep is finished and he has no one but himself to blame. Regardless of the government's percieved wrongdoings he pooped the coop in preventing the elections because of his hunger for power. Corruption was flourishing in Thailand long before Taksin so to blame all the country's woes on his administration is facile.

you think so wrong.

we are only start now.

the thai people revolution is begin now!

[Thai at Heart]

whatever way you try to cut it . . .Suthep is finished and he has no one but himself to blame. Regardless of the government's percieved wrongdoings he pooped the coop in preventing the elections because of his hunger for power. Corruption was flourishing in Thailand long before Taksin so to blame all the country's woes on his administration is facile.

Finished?

He will end up in the privy council and on the board of Siam cement and cp forever.

[rixalex]

The whole world knows the links between the Democrats and Suthep so I am hardly unique.

Didn't claim that it didn't. Didn't claim that you were.

I have never denied the links between Thaksin and the groups mentioned - not least because to do so would have been absurd.If you have any evidence show it.Otherwise pipe down.

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Between Thaksin and those groups, there isn't one single link, but a wide variety of links. I wasn't accusing you of denying them all. I was accusing you of having denied or downplayed certain ones. Anyone who has followed your posts over the years, will be aware of that trait of yours, and will also have seen the irony that I saw, that began all this, of you telling someone else who was playing down the links between the Dems and Suthep that, "it won't wash".

[SICHONSTEVE]

The fall from grace of this government started with Thaksin's amnesty bill - I would have thought that he would have had the foresight to have seen the furore amongst the people this would bring.

He is a born loser, full stop!!!

I wonder how much money he would have if you subtracted the ill-gotten gains from his wealth??

[maxme]

whatever way you try to cut it . . .Suthep is finished and he has no one but himself to blame. Regardless of the government's percieved wrongdoings he pooped the coop in preventing the elections because of his hunger for power. Corruption was flourishing in Thailand long before Taksin so to blame all the country's woes on his administration is facile.

you think so wrong.

we are only start now.

the thai people revolution is begin now!

Please share with us your plans. How to battle corruption after having get rid Yingluck. What reforms do you have in place to better the future of Thailand, for that matter improve the standards of the education platform?

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[gerry1011]

I had to laugh at the post that said that Jonathan Head is a well respected journalist. He's a complete <deleted> and a pisshead to boot. The only respect is when he buys a round at the FCCT.

Most foreign media I've looked at don't even scratch the surface of Thai politics & social strata. The journalists usually attempt to fit the local events into their home country's way of life. 'It's the lefties versus the righties' has been the BBC's coverage since 2009.

They also don't understand that an election in Thailand is not just people walking to a voting centre & casting their vote. They don't see the kamnan or local party organiser outside ensuring that 'his' people have voted in the way that they were paid to do. Or that in some areas (e'g' red-shirt villages) people are so intimidated that they are afraid to vote. Or that the huge sums of money spent (illegally) on the election has to be recouped afterwards. Or that the rule of law hardly applies in Thailand. I could go on as there are so many deficiencies with everything from voting to governance here that are not looked at by foreign journalists as they do it differently at home.

Overseas friends constantly ask me 'am I ok?' or 'what's happening in Thailand?'. They haven't a real clue because their local media is fed bullshit from the media reps here.

And your post isn't one-sided and totally biased? Jonathan Head can defend himself, but I very glad that the BBC and most of the other foreign media are reporting the situation impartially and not taking sides. Do you really believe that the only corruption and vote buying in Thailand is on one side?

If there was vote buying on both sides it would be 98:2 in favour of PTP!!!

Is that why Korn said the last election the dems spent more trying to buy votes than the PTP and still lost ? just saying.

Yes, it is Korn who said that indeed

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[jayboy]

The whole world knows the links between the Democrats and Suthep so I am hardly unique.

Didn't claim that it didn't. Didn't claim that you were.

I have never denied the links between Thaksin and the groups mentioned - not least because to do so would have been absurd.If you have any evidence show it.Otherwise pipe down.

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Between Thaksin and those groups, there isn't one single link, but a wide variety of links. I wasn't accusing you of denying them all. I was accusing you of having denied or downplayed certain ones. Anyone who has followed your posts over the years, will be aware of that trait of yours, and will also have seen the irony that I saw, that began all this, of you telling someone else who was playing down the links between the Dems and Suthep that, "it won't wash".[/

quote]

You just repeat yourself and compound your folly.Which links have I denied?

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[rixalex]

You just repeat yourself and compound your folly.Which links have I denied?

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What i actually said, and have since repeated a couple of times, was that you downplayed or flat out denied certain links. Yet every time you come back to refute my statement, you only ever refute having denied certain links. No mention made or any denial from you of having downplayed certain links. I'm assuming you are ignoring the downplayed bit of the statement because you accept that part of the charge.

As to which links you have either downplayed or denied, there is a good three years worth of your posting littered with examples, for anyone with the time and inclination, but to give one such example, you have continually downplayed / denied the specific link that bonds the red shirts and Thaksin, and specific link is one in which the red shirts are there primarily to serve the interests of Thaksin with whatever "heavy-handed" methods are required at the time. You have downplayed / denied this link, arguing that the red shirt movement is in fact a grass-roots movement that thinks for itself and that is gradually shifting away from Thaksin. Well, there was no bigger or better a test to prove one way or the other where they stood, than the suddenly revised amnesty bill put forward by PTP, in which the proposal was to give a free pass to all those involved and possibly guilty in the deaths of over 80 red shirt people in 2010, as well as thousands of other potential criminals.

What bigger issue could there possibly be for the red shirt movement than getting justice for those 80 odd people? None surely. And what did they do? What was their response to this repugnant and insulting idea? Protest vigorously against it surely? Of course. And, at the very very least, have their MPs vote against it. Goes without saying, right?

Well, it should...

[rogerdee123]

The fall from grace of this government started with Thaksin's amnesty bill - I would have thought that he would have had the foresight to have seen the furore amongst the people this would bring.

He is a born loser, full stop!!!

I wonder how much money he would have if you subtracted the ill-gotten gains from his wealth??

He is too arrogant and egotistical to have foreseen the reaction ... he thought he would be welcomed back by parades in the street with flowers thrown at his feet.

Have you seen his (very controversial) portrait photographs in royal regalia

[mrtoad]

The fall from grace of this government started with Thaksin's amnesty bill - I would have thought that he would have had the foresight to have seen the furore amongst the people this would bring.

He is a born loser, full stop!!!

I wonder how much money he would have if you subtracted the ill-gotten gains from his wealth??

On a level playing fuel, the odious convicted criminal would probably be worth very little. However, coming from a well established family, marrying into another one and allegedly making a lot of money through insider knowledge and corrupt practices, The Square headed one made a lot of money. However, what must really irritate him is the act that being a fugitive from justice he can not return to the country of his birth.

Anyway, he'll soon be able to have a DubI BBQ with soon to be convicted criminals of his proxy dictatorship, when they flee to meet up with The Desert Coward, prbkk and Pipkins for a nice sundowner.

[jayboy]

You just repeat yourself and compound your folly.Which links have I denied?

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What i actually said, and have since repeated a couple of times, was that you downplayed or flat out denied certain links. Yet every time you come back to refute my statement, you only ever refute having denied certain links. No mention made or any denial from you of having downplayed certain links. I'm assuming you are ignoring the downplayed bit of the statement because you accept that part of the charge.

As to which links you have either downplayed or denied, there is a good three years worth of your posting littered with examples, for anyone with the time and inclination, but to give one such example, you have continually downplayed / denied the specific link that bonds the red shirts and Thaksin, and specific link is one in which the red shirts are there primarily to serve the interests of Thaksin with whatever "heavy-handed" methods are required at the time. You have downplayed / denied this link, arguing that the red shirt movement is in fact a grass-roots movement that thinks for itself and that is gradually shifting away from Thaksin. Well, there was no bigger or better a test to prove one way or the other where they stood, than the suddenly revised amnesty bill put forward by PTP, in which the proposal was to give a free pass to all those involved and possibly guilty in the deaths of over 80 red shirt people in 2010, as well as thousands of other potential criminals.

What bigger issue could there possibly be for the red shirt movement than getting justice for those 80 odd people? None surely. And what did they do? What was their response to this repugnant and insulting idea? Protest vigorously against it surely? Of course. And, at the very very least, have their MPs vote against it. Goes without saying, right?

Well, it should...

Oh dear this has become embarrassing for you now.I noted your shift from suggesting I denied links between Thaksin and the redshirts to your later revised criticism that I "downplayed" links.

Even after shifting your ground you are unable to come up with any examples.Actually there is in your comments a great deal of ignorance and you appear not to be aware of the many strands of opinion in the redshirt movement.The odd aspect is that I am on record as criticising Thaksin many times for exploiting his followers, and for attempting to force through the ill advised umbrella amnesty.But you make the classic error of placing Thaksin centre stage when in fact he is just a catalyst.The old order is dying in Thailand and the redshirts to some extent reflect this as increasing wealth and modernity have destroyed old fashioned social deference.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Edited February 18, 2014 by jayboy

[rixalex]

Oh dear this has become embarrassing for you now.I noted your shift from suggesting I denied links between Thaksin and the redshirts to your later revised criticism that I "downplayed" links.

The words I used from the outset were downplayed / denied. You ignored downplayed for obvious reasons. Matters not, as you have been guilty of both.

The odd aspect is that I am on record as criticising Thaksin many times for exploiting his followers, and for attempting to force through the ill advised umbrella amnesty.

Indeed as you are also on record as having said that PTP and Yingluck were not purely driven by trying to help Thaksin with the amnesty plan and that people who predicted they were, were simply usual suspects with Thaksin obsessions. Another Thaksin link you badly misjudged.

But you make the classic error of placing Thaksin centre stage when in fact he is just a catalyst.The old order is dying in Thailand and the redshirts to some extent reflect this as increasing wealth and modernity have destroyed old fashioned social deference.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

About time you came up with some new material. Been repeating this nonsense years.

[jayboy]

Oh dear this has become embarrassing for you now.I noted your shift from suggesting I denied links between Thaksin and the redshirts to your later revised criticism that I "downplayed" links.

The words I used from the outset were downplayed / denied. You ignored downplayed for obvious reasons. Matters not, as you have been guilty of both.

The odd aspect is that I am on record as criticising Thaksin many times for exploiting his followers, and for attempting to force through the ill advised umbrella amnesty.

Indeed as you are also on record as having said that PTP and Yingluck were not purely driven by trying to help Thaksin with the amnesty plan and that people who predicted they were, were simply usual suspects with Thaksin obsessions. Another Thaksin link you badly misjudged.

But you make the classic error of placing Thaksin centre stage when in fact he is just a catalyst.The old order is dying in Thailand and the redshirts to some extent reflect this as increasing wealth and modernity have destroyed old fashioned social deference.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

About time you came up with some new material. Been repeating this nonsense years.

You can disagree with me on Thaksin's significance though reasoned arguments would be more effective than petulant charges of " nonsense".But that is not a matter of major concern: I do not expect intelligent or interesting insights from you.

What you cannot do however is lie.I have never posted anything remotely akin to the specific charge you have made about Yingluck/PTP and the amnesty.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Thai at Heart]

Oh dear this has become embarrassing for you now.I noted your shift from suggesting I denied links between Thaksin and the redshirts to your later revised criticism that I "downplayed" links.

The words I used from the outset were downplayed / denied. You ignored downplayed for obvious reasons. Matters not, as you have been guilty of both.

The odd aspect is that I am on record as criticising Thaksin many times for exploiting his followers, and for attempting to force through the ill advised umbrella amnesty.

Indeed as you are also on record as having said that PTP and Yingluck were not purely driven by trying to help Thaksin with the amnesty plan and that people who predicted they were, were simply usual suspects with Thaksin obsessions. Another Thaksin link you badly misjudged.

But you make the classic error of placing Thaksin centre stage when in fact he is just a catalyst.The old order is dying in Thailand and the redshirts to some extent reflect this as increasing wealth and modernity have destroyed old fashioned social deference.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

About time you came up with some new material. Been repeating this nonsense years.

If you can't see that the names of this old money are so entwined with business and politics and that they are all.largely distinctly democrat you must be blind.

[Bkkbound]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPDrfnnITfg

The BBC sums it up nicely..

[rixalex]

What you cannot do however is lie.I have never posted anything remotely akin to the specific charge you have made about Yingluck/PTP and the amnesty.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I haven't lied. I have a distinct memory of having had a discussion with you around the time that PTP were elected, in which i argued, along with a good number of others, that all this talk of the need for reconciliation and these claims of the PTP being the ones who could possibly achieve it (if not acheive it, certainly do a better job than the Dems) was a load of baloney, and that the only reason they were constantly talking about reconciliation was because of opportunity it potentially presented to them to get Thaksin back and off the hook. And my distinct memory is of your response to that being, along the lines of, "don't be silly, stop trying to preempt what they will do... wait and see... the chances of them doing that are very remote, because of the political and social turmoil it would create... the PTP / Yingluck aren't that stupid... stop obsessing about Thaksin...".

Come on, you have to admit, that does sound like you, doesn't it? No?

Sadly, Thaivisa records only go back a year so i can't quote you directly. I will make you a deal therefore. If you can put your hand on your heart and tell me you said nothing of the sort, that you in no way misjudged this debacle in the way i am describing, then i will take you at your word, retract my claim, and apologise for my bad memory. I'm happy to do that because although I know you to be many things, i don't take you as a liar. So, over to you...