Thai Gov. Health Plan for Farangs Totally Kaput?

[amexpat]

Ah, but gamini tells us that "anyone with a bit of sense" should realize that the Thai government's wisdom, integrity, and thorough planning ensure reasonable goals and logical outcomes.

[Mapguy]

Lighten up! Keep talking, of course, but what's happening in one place or another might or might not be valid in all. Just allow the "hard" news to be reflected, as best as can be, by Sheryl in the pinned thread. She and NancyL have put themselves at the center of health care and insurance things for expats in Chiang Mai, and they work at getting the best information they can.

This hospital does this. This hospital does that. Oy! It is no doubt true that within ANY bureaucracy, whether it be in Thailand or elsewhere, there are differences in interpretation and application of central policy as well as spotty communications . That is absolutely normal. It is the nature of the bureaucratic beast anywhere!

There is the additional problem of the current difficulties of the Thai government to operate efficiently and soundly financially. Don't underestimate that problem.

The personal needs of expatriates for attention in Thailand are indeed very personally important, but please remember that expatriates are not here except by choice.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Mapguy

[mimithewoof]

MCCW - yes, it's obvious that you're 30 - I'm not so old that I can't remember what that was like! I'm quite certain that most UK retirees here are in no way 'nostalgic' about the free National Health Service, which has been in a relatively crash and burn state since you were in primary school and is now unrecoverable in its present form due simply to bureaucracy.. Fortunately, I never, ever had to use it, but my parents and friends wern't so lucky, with horror stories going back decades.

The 'market' as, you call it, has absolutely nothing to do with the price to be paid here - it's the usual greed which determines how much is charged for a procedure. In Thailand, the Middle East and even the good old USA. it's all about profit, not service or value for money. Example - when my husband had the tip of his index finger amputated after an accident and infection, he checked around. Charge for a 20 minute local anesthetic operation at McCormick -25,000 baht , at Sirirpat 15,000 baht. At exactly that time the scheme started and he opted for that as he hates being ripped off. His decision, and it worked well. If there is a refund offered, we'll give it straight back to Nakornping Hospital. .

Sad that you think the 'benefits socialist experiment' is coming to an end - should it do so it will drag the UK back to its pre-WWI state. where those who haven't been greedy enough to amass real wealth will have no chance of making anything of their lives. My country of birth might even begin to resemble Thailand in its social (or anti-social) structure. Your parents benefited from the 'experiment', so, I suspect, did you.- so don't knock it.

Lastly, sweetie, 'economic reality' isn't just for the privileged few - it should be for all according to their level of needs. The economic reality of the pre-2008 crash years wrecked the world economy - my least favourite PM, Maggie Thatcher, had it right - running a country is similar to running a home - you direct finances where they're most needed, according to priorities.

One day, in the far future YOU'LL be sitting somewhere moaning about some aspects of wherever you are, and a 30-year old will spill his youthful wisdom for you to appreciate! .Have fun!

BY the way, I agree with your suggestion that time spent living here should be relevant , but I'd love to hear your definition of an emergency as it would have to be age-related to work.

[mccw]

Mimi

Hello

15,000bht/ £300 ish seems a pretty good deal for an amputation operation. I've no idea what it would cost privately in UK or US but a good deal more I bet. Why does your husband feel it's a rip off? People travel from across the region and the Middle East, even the whole world, come to Thailand for the keenly priced and quality service private medical treatment here.

For a 3 days in a private room in SD and needed Caesarian for birth of my son, doctor and several nurses, clean and comfortable, good service, and it all cost 40k bht; which seems like a great deal to me. UK privately would have been £5to8000.

I pay thousands in UK taxes every year and don't receive any benefit or services. My wife would not have been able to go for the birth there anyway but despite the thousands in taxes we all must pay the NHS is still a lottery of poor standards, even though most of the staff are in on the cheap from 3rd world countries.

The NHS doctor did a good job stitching up my face after an 8hour wait bleeding in A&E on Christmas morning (after getting attatcked on my way home by some Somali street rats the night before; sure it's a real slide for west to come down to Thai social standards, what a joke, it's not just the cities but every small town is full of drunken fuelled violence every weekend, just the cities it's everyday, kids stabbing each other on the bus on the way to school, such a civilised wonderful place.

NHS Hammersmith did a good job delivering me, apparently things were a little bit better then. Huge increases in budgets/ spending since then but a worsening service? Can you tell me why in your ages of wisdom?

Spending figures here:

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/numbers

Look at that; how much of all spending goes on pensions and NHS? Maybe a bit more on education might be a good idea? It's the kids that will be the ones paying off all the debts your generation have run up on "free" services and pensions for yourselves; (national debt over a trillion £s or so) ! Don't be bleeding "but I paid taxes all my life so fair enough" it doesn't cut it because the debt is so huge your taxes clearly didn't go anywhere near paying for all the services the past generations voted for and ?enjoyed? Seems like no one in the, / from the, west receiving all these "freebies" even appreciates how lucky they are. Everybody always moaning and so hard done by.

Look at the numbers; It's not the education or even defence budgets that are ballooning and bankrupting the nation, is it?! This is not youthful wisdom or ageist attacks, it's a cold hard look at the facts, the numbers.

In my view cutting taxes and benefits and encourage people to work and take care of themselves would be beneficial economically, socially and culturally as well.

.

Since you asked- When I say emergency & bare bones as what should be covered and what will be left after inflation and other needed cuts take effect over the next few decades to bring down our western debts; I expect basics like A&E treatment, child birth- although maybe this could/ should have some contribution aspect, like eye tests, glasses, false teeth, new hips, tests, x-rays etc etc etc, only vaccinations and disease control should be free and mandatory.

------

In conclusion I say Thailand would do well to avoid the populist path and the mistakes the west made of spending wildly beyond means. Better if they can grow and increase development sustainably while keeping the cost of living down.

-----

A bit of opinion and some interesting charts for you here:

http://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.com/2013/08/12/can-the-nhs-survive/

[mccw]

Hopefully Thailand will avoid mess like this:

http://www.debtbombshell.com

The above maybe a little out of date; see this one:

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk

Not paying for any sick old westerner that turns up to Thailand hospital door step is a great move. Shame England et al couldn't apply such a common sense approach.

[Oscar2]

i would say that both mccw and mimithewoof raise valid, well thought-out points.

[hellodolly]

Mimi

Hello

15,000bht/ £300 ish seems a pretty good deal for an amputation operation. I've no idea what it would cost privately in UK or US but a good deal more I bet. Why does your husband feel it's a rip off? People travel from across the region and the Middle East, even the whole world, come to Thailand for the keenly priced and quality service private medical treatment here.

For a 3 days in a private room in SD and needed Caesarian for birth of my son, doctor and several nurses, clean and comfortable, good service, and it all cost 40k bht; which seems like a great deal to me. UK privately would have been £5to8000.

I pay thousands in UK taxes every year and don't receive any benefit or services. My wife would not have been able to go for the birth there anyway but despite the thousands in taxes we all must pay the NHS is still a lottery of poor standards, even though most of the staff are in on the cheap from 3rd world countries.

The NHS doctor did a good job stitching up my face after an 8hour wait bleeding in A&E on Christmas morning (after getting attatcked on my way home by some Somali street rats the night before; sure it's a real slide for west to come down to Thai social standards, what a joke, it's not just the cities but every small town is full of drunken fuelled violence every weekend, just the cities it's everyday, kids stabbing each other on the bus on the way to school, such a civilised wonderful place.

NHS Hammersmith did a good job delivering me, apparently things were a little bit better then. Huge increases in budgets/ spending since then but a worsening service? Can you tell me why in your ages of wisdom?

Spending figures here:

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/numbers

Look at that; how much of all spending goes on pensions and NHS? Maybe a bit more on education might be a good idea? It's the kids that will be the ones paying off all the debts your generation have run up on "free" services and pensions for yourselves; (national debt over a trillion £s or so) ! Don't be bleeding "but I paid taxes all my life so fair enough" it doesn't cut it because the debt is so huge your taxes clearly didn't go anywhere near paying for all the services the past generations voted for and ?enjoyed? Seems like no one in the, / from the, west receiving all these "freebies" even appreciates how lucky they are. Everybody always moaning and so hard done by.

Look at the numbers; It's not the education or even defence budgets that are ballooning and bankrupting the nation, is it?! This is not youthful wisdom or ageist attacks, it's a cold hard look at the facts, the numbers.

In my view cutting taxes and benefits and encourage people to work and take care of themselves would be beneficial economically, socially and culturally as well.

.

Since you asked- When I say emergency & bare bones as what should be covered and what will be left after inflation and other needed cuts take effect over the next few decades to bring down our western debts; I expect basics like A&E treatment, child birth- although maybe this could/ should have some contribution aspect, like eye tests, glasses, false teeth, new hips, tests, x-rays etc etc etc, only vaccinations and disease control should be free and mandatory.

------

In conclusion I say Thailand would do well to avoid the populist path and the mistakes the west made of spending wildly beyond means. Better if they can grow and increase development sustainably while keeping the cost of living down.

-----

A bit of opinion and some interesting charts for you here:

http://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.com/2013/08/12/can-the-nhs-survive/

Well I don't come from England and am not sure what all that has to do with the Thai government stopping the health care plan for foreigners who come from the western countries.

How ever I was talking with a friend yesterday and she said she had a friend in a motor bike accidence that was fully covered by the insurance she had bought at Nakornping Hospital. I had seen her friend Saturday so the accident must have been on Sunday or Monday. I asked if she was sure that her friend had not gone to Hong Dang and she said yes she was sure she had gone to Nakornping Hospital.

I think it is as the moderator said it takes a while fo0r all the government to understand what they are supposed to be doing. Kind of like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

[mccw]

Hello hellodolly

My point of discussing the wider economics around health care provision is to help those assessing the likely hood that the Thai gov scheme is or was not meant for westerners and has or is soon to be withdrawn.

Good luck for those that have it and can still use it.

If your skint and able to get discretionary operations done on the Thai card then do it ASAP before you miss this golden window of opportunity.

[mccw]

For the younger family or working people here/ insurable people. I recommend AIA policy. Our deal is cover all in patient care and pay yearly for 20 years and then the rest of life is free. (Now my numbers brain clicks that this is a bit ponzi reliant esq maybe; but then if the takers are general ya bit older than me then it's less free years to cover/ my free years are balanced out by other payments. Fingers crossed it doesn't collapse; but I make savings in case despite the cover of course just in case.

2 adults in 30s and two kids, 170k py for cover everything, pay 20 years and we are all covered for rest of lives.

Even though we hardly use it - Make a plan early I thought before any "pre existing conditions" can't be covered and the price gets pushed up.

[northernjohn]

This OP would qualify as a rumour rather than fact. Just checked with my local hospital and they stated categorically that the plan is valid; has not be cancelled.

Please check your sources before starting a "scare rumour."

There have been several people here with direct experience being rejected. As has been pointed out there are some hospitals still honoring it. I wouldn't count on that lasting to much longer word will get around. What hospital did you call?

Speaking of rumors I thought that they had already approved a 500 baht charge for tourists. I know they were seriously considering it.

[northernjohn]

Thought I would post this. I took the time to read the whole closed topic at the start of this forum posted by Sheryl. Here is the latest news.

Notice the date.

Posted 2013-12-03 15:56:49

UPDATE:

As feared/anticipated, the central level has clarified that the intent of the directive was only for migrants and issuance of cards to resident expats has been put on hold. Cards already issued will be honored, at least through their expiration.

Discussions with the MoPH are ongoing to seek a solution as the CM Provincial health authorities are supportive of providing insurance to foreigners. It may, however, take some time.

[mimithewoof]

MCCW - thanks for your reply - but my husband's amputation was simply the top digit of his index finger - could have done it myself with a pair of shears! Only joking, of course , but it literally took just 20 minutes including stretching the skin over the stump and a stitching job. The surgeon was, obviously, an expert I'd give him more credit than I would have to his counterpart (probably from Africa) in the UK - and he spoke good English as well.

One point is that I don't think Ram or Siripat could have done any better, but would have charged far more. For what? Better decoration in the ward? Nursing was great at Nakornping as well, don't see how the private sector could have out-performed in that either.

Because I was running a business in the UK I had private medical insurance for some 25 years - never once needed to use it. My major expense was dental treatment - implants, some 15 years ago - I note that nowadays, implants here cost far more than they do at an average dental surgery in the UK, whilst when I came here some 8 years ago they were significantly cheaper. Greed, again.

Sorry, sweetie, but it's not my generation who've run up the huge deficits in the UK economy - that's entirely down to three issues - Tony B-liar's useless government, unchecked immigration and good old Wall Street - greed and fraud in a style never before seen, and we've not hit the end of its effects yet. My generation was brought up to be careful with our cash, and we paid as much tax, VAT, etc,etc over the years as have you (proportionally speaking) and saw it wasted on social security for the workshy whilst we were working our butts off. to pay the bills. My 24/7 business was import/export, I was damn good at it and sustained decent profits as a result, but saw my taxes etc wasted on stupid ideas whilst education, the NHS etc went down the tubes for lack of investment and the application of even more stupid ideas. It was the UK version of the 'populist path' run mad.

In the end, I left. I miss my business, but will never set foot in the UK again. BUT - to stay on topic, the populist path here is necessary due to the soaring inequality in Thailand - to me it resembles the state of a good number of violence-prone South American countries. 14 per cent of the country's population live in BKK - it accounts for 72 per cent of the country's GDP. Is that fair? Does that give bright kids in the back of beyond a chance to develop their lives? No, and sooner or later the inevitable will follow.

And what's all that got to do with government healthcare insurance for expats? Quite a lot, actually. The UK government, much as I hate them, at least provides for migrant essentials, and other immigrant destinations such as New Zealand, Canada etc have recognised the benefits of new blood to their economies and are encouraging more immigration, especially of skilled persons like yourself. Without a doubt, expats from the West do benefit Thailand's local economies, and will continue to do so. Even although retirees can't work, they can support local businesses, Thai families, etc, and should not be regarded as the bottom of the pile by the authorities - in this case even lower than the Burmese labourers.

There's a parallel between this and the country's seeming inability to deal with the tourism scam practices in the beach resorts even although tourism is important to the Thai economy. In my worst black moods, I have dreams about tourism totally crashing and the vast majority of expats leaving for kinder destinations. Guess the effect of that might even top the financial fallout from the rice scheme!

[Oscar2]

Well I don't come from England and am not sure what all that has to do with the Thai government stopping the health care plan for foreigners who come from the western countries.

How ever I was talking with a friend yesterday and she said she had a friend in a motor bike accidence that was fully covered by the insurance she had bought at Nakornping Hospital. I had seen her friend Saturday so the accident must have been on Sunday or Monday. I asked if she was sure that her friend had not gone to Hong Dang and she said yes she was sure she had gone to Nakornping Hospital.

I think it is as the moderator said it takes a while fo0r all the government to understand what they are supposed to be doing. Kind of like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

rubbish. once again you don't know what you are talking about. nobody would be covered for a motorbike accident under the government health care plan. if a motorcycle rider is in an accident and is uninsured/under-insured then he/she is totally responsible for the accident unless the other party was responsible and had 3rd party coverage. government health care plans do not cover vehicle accidents.

[Oscar2]

i love mimithewoof's posts. i don't agree 100% with her but i do agree with a lot of what she says. old Tony B. was good in his earlier political years. shame he ended his career so disgracefully!

[northernjohn]

Well I don't come from England and am not sure what all that has to do with the Thai government stopping the health care plan for foreigners who come from the western countries.

How ever I was talking with a friend yesterday and she said she had a friend in a motor bike accidence that was fully covered by the insurance she had bought at Nakornping Hospital. I had seen her friend Saturday so the accident must have been on Sunday or Monday. I asked if she was sure that her friend had not gone to Hong Dang and she said yes she was sure she had gone to Nakornping Hospital.

I think it is as the moderator said it takes a while fo0r all the government to understand what they are supposed to be doing. Kind of like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

rubbish. once again you don't know what you are talking about. nobody would be covered for a motorbike accident under the government health care plan. if a motorcycle rider is in an accident and is uninsured/under-insured then he/she is totally responsible for the accident unless the other party was responsible and had 3rd party coverage. government health care plans do not cover vehicle accidents.

Rubbish you don't know what you are talking about. Were you around the corner listening to her. I was just reporting what a friend told me and wondering what all the nonsense about other countries had to do with Thailand. I noticed that went over your head.

I do believe and am posting that it will take time for the whole thing to be in affect at all Government hospitals or not in affect. When it comes to a government decision I am never for sure until it has proved it's self out.

[Chiengmaijoe]

Well I don't come from England and am not sure what all that has to do with the Thai government stopping the health care plan for foreigners who come from the western countries.

How ever I was talking with a friend yesterday and she said she had a friend in a motor bike accidence that was fully covered by the insurance she had bought at Nakornping Hospital. I had seen her friend Saturday so the accident must have been on Sunday or Monday. I asked if she was sure that her friend had not gone to Hong Dang and she said yes she was sure she had gone to Nakornping Hospital.

I think it is as the moderator said it takes a while fo0r all the government to understand what they are supposed to be doing. Kind of like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

rubbish. once again you don't know what you are talking about. nobody would be covered for a motorbike accident under the government health care plan. if a motorcycle rider is in an accident and is uninsured/under-insured then he/she is totally responsible for the accident unless the other party was responsible and had 3rd party coverage. government health care plans do not cover vehicle accidents.

Rubbish you don't know what you are talking about. Were you around the corner listening to her. I was just reporting what a friend told me and wondering what all the nonsense about other countries had to do with Thailand. I noticed that went over your head.

I do believe and am posting that it will take time for the whole thing to be in affect at all Government hospitals or not in affect. When it comes to a government decision I am never for sure until it has proved it's self out.

Are you posting on hellodolly's behalf or is that your alter ego?

[Mapguy]

This OP would qualify as a rumour rather than fact. Just checked with my local hospital and they stated categorically that the plan is valid; has not be cancelled.

Please check your sources before starting a "scare rumour."

There have been several people here with direct experience being rejected. As has been pointed out there are some hospitals still honoring it. I wouldn't count on that lasting to much longer word will get around. What hospital did you call?

Speaking of rumors I thought that they had already approved a 500 baht charge for tourists. I know they were seriously considering it.

Rumors are rumors. Do you have anything substantive to add?

[Mapguy]

Generally, I would suggest it is pissing into the wind to reflect upon comparisons of Thai policy and practice with what you experienced back where you came

from. You are here, not there.

[mccw]

Hi; Did you look at the numbers linked previously Mimi?

It seems the bank bailouts are only about to be added to the debt figures (almost doubling what was already a horrific mess)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/8262037/Bank-bail-out-adds-1.5-trillion-to-debt.html

So it's too many give aways, mainly in areas of pensions and NHS, but also welfare, that is to blame for poor state of finances and high rates of taxes.

I'll say it again- Thailand will do well not to copy the western populist nanny state model; which is set to be wound down/ scaled back dramatically, now accelerated by the greedy banker bail outs, but either way- demographically and mathematically it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Not to criticising you/ your husband personally for taking the cheaper operation option, as it makes total financial sense, but it doesn't mean the 15k one was a rip off. He only got the subsided service because of the government card. It's like saying a non EU tourist is getting ripped off for having to pay to see a UK gp while Brits go free. But actually the tourist is just paying their way as it should be while the locals get the service their taxes have paid for. Fair enough.

If I could vote (which we can't because we are not citizens obviously) I would vote for married persons to Thais to get citizenship quicker or to be covered for health care. But retirees should really be responsible for themselves, not come and burden the Thai tax payer. A little A&E fix up maybe on an insurance type arrangement at most; but certainly not cover for the range of on going ailments like blood pressure, life style and just oldness discretionary things like hips n that or costs would spiral.

I could debate this longer but I fear we are straying well off topic so I'll call it day. Your entitled to your opinion of course but I doubt the Thais will be so foolish as the British etc and throw money at every immigrant that turns up on their shores.

Are they still is during cards anywhere? Or is this finished an it's a question of if / where they can still be used for those that lucky enough to catch the mistake?

[thailampang2012]

It is not a surprise for me. I enrolled...but without optimism that will be kept too long after correcting the offer. I was happy because at 70 no way to get any private insurance, but also I was sure that was not intended to give to ALL foreigners the same benefits like Thai citizens...Was a mistake...and some foreigners use it to get some treatments for free. It is OK...opportunities happen. I will do the same if I am in need.

I hope now, that will be giving another option for the ones already registered, not just the money back....or will be kept just for foreigners with some kind of visa. .....marriage, work visa, permanent residents....Will see.

Edited February 28, 2014 by thailampang2012

[mimithewoof]

Hi; Did you look at the numbers linked previously Mimi?

It seems the bank bailouts are only about to be added to the debt figures (almost doubling what was already a horrific mess)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/8262037/Bank-bail-out-adds-1.5-trillion-to-debt.html

So it's too many give aways, mainly in areas of pensions and NHS, but also welfare, that is to blame for poor state of finances and high rates of taxes.

I'll say it again- Thailand will do well not to copy the western populist nanny state model; which is set to be wound down/ scaled back dramatically, now accelerated by the greedy banker bail outs, but either way- demographically and mathematically it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Not to criticising you/ your husband personally for taking the cheaper operation option, as it makes total financial sense, but it doesn't mean the 15k one was a rip off. He only got the subsided service because of the government card. It's like saying a non EU tourist is getting ripped off for having to pay to see a UK gp while Brits go free. But actually the tourist is just paying their way as it should be while the locals get the service their taxes have paid for. Fair enough.

If I could vote (which we can't because we are not citizens obviously) I would vote for married persons to Thais to get citizenship quicker or to be covered for health care. But retirees should really be responsible for themselves, not come and burden the Thai tax payer. A little A&E fix up maybe on an insurance type arrangement at most; but certainly not cover for the range of on going ailments like blood pressure, life style and just oldness discretionary things like hips n that or costs would spiral.

I could debate this longer but I fear we are straying well off topic so I'll call it day. Your entitled to your opinion of course but I doubt the Thais will be so foolish as the British etc and throw money at every immigrant that turns up on their shores.

Are they still is during cards anywhere? Or is this finished an it's a question of if / where they can still be used for those that lucky enough to catch the mistake?

OK - this is my last post on (or off) the subject as well. Yes, I still check on what's going on in the UK economy, if only to reassure myself my decision to get out was right! However, I'm ancient enough to remember when the NHS, the social welfare system and more worked strongly in favour of all less than wealthy citizens such as my parents, and even allowed me to attend amazingly good private schools and uni on scholarships. That's the type of social service I'd envisage as being really useful here, whether it included expat residents or not.

Again, sorry to bore you, I must state that bank bailouts, etc, etc are only necessary due to the greed of Wall Street, the City of London and other such hubs of fraud and unethical behaviour. The laws necessary to prevent a collapse such as that in 2008 could have been put in place but weren;'t, and the financial industry as whole was fully aware the crash was coming but couldn't bring itself to get off the gravy train. One of my best clients, an extremely wealthy hedge fund trader, warned me in 2004 that hell was going to break loose, and his advice was one reason why I decided to shut up shop and emigrate. His opinion was that the issue would bring down government - so far that hasn't happened, but I'm not sitting on a hot stove waiting. It ain't over yet....

Don't think anyone posting on this thread would expect to have Thai baht thrown at them either in the form of almost free medical coverage or any other social service, but most, I believe, would be more than happy to get some kind of medical insurance covering local hospitals at a reasonable annual price. That;s the nub of this argument, but whether it'll ever be addressed by the authorities is anyone's guess.

As regards the British 'nanny state' - a poll of Brits still in the country would give you an idea how hated it is. If I remember, it's another import from the USA, and about as unpopular as most of their TV programmes.

Look forward to sparring with you again at a later date!

[mccw]

Mimi

Your last posts content on the financial crises I agree 100%