Buying unregistered land

[cheeryble]

Hi

We are about to go on a trip to pay for a plot of unregistered land up north. It has a terrific view and is rather special.

I didn't just get off the boat so don't need warnings about Thai women, it will belong to my missus, and I require no security, and the land is very fairly priced (I know the local prices).

How it is is wife's sister and various family members all live within a few hundred yards. They have some chanoot lots with dwellings below, then there are some unregistered lots on the rising land with pineapples and treed hedgerows. Before you ask I have experienced me to be lovely and guileless people, well respected in the area, and their kids stay with us often like our kids.

This particular hillock lot is the only one with a true small wooden house on it, and is being sold by an uncle.

We have already agreed for him to stay on the land moving his little house from the top, and it is on my list that we must ensure that.....for the sake of if and when this land gets a chanot.....ensure that he has access without crossing our land in case we ever wanted to sell.

Our thinking is letting him stay not only helps the deal but he may be very helpful for a security point of view and maybe look after the vegetation and maybe we can take a small cut of the pineapple crop if he grows it so everyone wins. (He is a nice guy who looked after an unconconscious brother for a very long time there until his death).

So

Apparently the land office has been out to assess the land twice once long ago and once recently. I don't at the moment know of any denomination of the land. I DO know that family owns all but one lot in the area and they are a great bunch and want my missus to be near them and I want that not only for now as a part time home but for when I'm old or gone.

I am not paranoid about this and as I said it's not big money and in any case the land is productive, and I will probably buy this regardless for the wife's long haul...........but is there anything I should know or can check about as regards right to build.

Presumably we will meet the pooyaybahn to discuss.

(Thinking of something like a holiday chalet at this stage designed so it can be extended easily if we wish to do so in future.)

ps it doesn't look like forestry land nearby.

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Edited February 27, 2014 by cheeryble

[PattayaPhom]

I think you are probably already aware that land without titles or lesser titles is for agriculture use only. A building permit cant be issued so any dwelling in effect is illegal. If all surrounding plots are owned by friends/relatives its unlikely that a complaint would be made regarding construction and you could possibly live there happy ever after.

[Bosse137]

Where I live in Isaan,there are no papers at all, People sell and buy,build houses and so on in a "normal" way. In my more then 20 years here there has never been the slightest problem in any way!!My gf is of course the owner of all our land.....She has not thrown me out yet.Should it happen (who ever knows..) then I can say that I have got more than my share already, many years ago!Go for it and good luck! (Always needed after all..)

[cheeryble]

Thankyou both Pattaya and Bosse

Do you or any interested posters have any comment on the past visits from the LO, one last year.

An early sign of a chanot in the offing, or don't hold our breath?

(Think I know that one)....

Anyone EVER heard of a (reasonable, modest, appropriate, non-outrageous, non-neighbour) building being taken down or stopped from going up in a situation like this?

The only ones I know are a house stopped at skeleton stage as too near the River Ping and Lily Valley Condo CM being frozen for putting extra stores on top (in the CNX flight path).

Not like for like.....

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Edited February 27, 2014 by cheeryble

[hemanrcr]

If there is no title deed attached to this land, then it is most likely Tor Bor 5, which is for agricultural use only. The only documentation on these types of titles is a tax receipt for the annual land tax. You can not get a building permit, electric meter or a house book for a building on this land. The government has been a lot stricter of late enforcing these laws--but as you probably know it is not consistent. Given that all your neighbors are family, you probably won't have to worry about any complaints if you start building. But be aware, that any building on that property can technically be torn down for being illegal--so that may determine the amount you want to invest.

[maprao]

The uncle already lives there. He will stay there. A way of helping him out I guess.

If you can afford it do it. If it is money you can not afford to lose then do not do it.

You are helping them out and they are giving you something back as opposed to just asking for help.

We She has bought non chanote land built a house lent money to relatives only to get it back later.shock horror.

Your call and only you can male it

[Majreno]

Did they place cement markers from survay and issue a use permit? - does that person pay an annual fee at the land office for the plot even if small a small amount? - if so the land can be bought and sold between Thai's anyway - it is the next best thing to a chanote - A sales agreement the use permit and survey and as discribed evidance is all that your other would need to protect purchase. There is also a possablity that it will convert to chanote but you don't invest or bank on that just roll with it. Any other type land is subject to problems even if they are often rare in most area - if it suddenly becomes a tourist trap you can count on Thai's with tie's to be moving in and taking everything with a lawyer in tow but more then likey they would pay you something to make it easy for them anyway, that said;

You could get a piece of land build cheap not a mansion and if you stay more then 5 or 6 years beat the heck out of renting and still sell it to someone else cheap - if you don't want to live in the city and mind what you are spending you come out far ahead of having to pay a kings ransom to a landlord and leave with nothing anyway. Most places in town are smelly and noisy and money just tossed down a drain anyway - so built cheap but functional and enjoy your stay. You will get more in return even if you only sell the building for parts and walk away and many do.

[thaiguzzi]

If there is no title deed attached to this land, then it is most likely Tor Bor 5, which is for agricultural use only. The only documentation on these types of titles is a tax receipt for the annual land tax. You can not get a building permit, electric meter or a house book for a building on this land. The government has been a lot stricter of late enforcing these laws--but as you probably know it is not consistent. Given that all your neighbors are family, you probably won't have to worry about any complaints if you start building. But be aware, that any building on that property can technically be torn down for being illegal--so that may determine the amount you want to invest.

Tor Bor 5 / Sor Por Kor;

1. Don't need a building permit out in the sticks.

2. You can get an electric meter.

3. You can get a house book.

[reptile91602]

When we first moved to Koh Samui we thought of doing something like this. But then we heard stories of falang doing this and then losing it. But where you are it would appear you will have it until your wife dies or the family kicks you out even if you build a house. Out in the country it also easy to pay off officials if they ever come a calling.

[cheeryble]

Thankyou for the wonderful replies.

I can now start formulating questions.

If the land is Tor Bor 5 or the like, would the owners even know it or is it like no paper but a group designation for a whole area?

Would they perhaps know a designation if they have to pay this small tax?

(Haven't heard if a tax payment yet but it will be a first question), good info)

Another thing comes to mind.....I have previously heard that agricultural land the electricity price is double.

Given that agricultural diesel is much CHEAPER in England this seems odd, is it true?

(He certainly has some simple electricity now perhaps running up on a single line from the nearest neighbour, so there will be another clue if he has his own meter.

There may be another factor here.

It is indeed as mentioned an up and coming area and could be very desirable there's a resort cleared very nearby.

This risk may be offset by he fact the whole valley is Christian not a wat in sight! and they may well have a communal voice because they are very communal indeed which I think's good. Not sure if that voice would extend as far as the land office but there would be four or five very pissed off owners who are pillars of the community.

Will also ask about length of "ownership" I know that uncle has only been living there only a few years maybe 6 but wife thinks they have had land plots longer.

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Edited February 28, 2014 by cheeryble

[VINCENT2012]

bla bla blab..........if no paper you better don't buy..!

why do you want to complicate what is already complicated...if you want to buy something, why dont you contact me ..i sell my resort

all papers in rder

lol

[maybefitz]

Cheeryble - an important factor is the input from the village head man and the Tambon office. I live in an area,70k N of Chiang Mai. Some land is registered, but most is not in the whole tambon of 9 villages. However, people have been trading buying and selling land regularly. Any transaction is sanctioned by the head man, and fully recorded in the Tambon office. Yes, we keep getting information that soon, the land registry department are going to sanctify people's holdings. In fact, 3 years ago, everyone had to go and show what papers they have to register their holdings. Nothing has happened yet - indeed, I think it's a regular gambit trotted out at election time, then like a lot of election promises in Thailand, nothing comes of it.

Interesting point about no building on agricultural land. My wife has an 11 rai Longan (Lumyai) orchard, not registered. The word went round that a recent court case was settled on the fact that the claimant had built on the land, underlining his ownership. It was found in his favour - so, everyone with unregistered land (a lot of people) suddenly put up little 1 room, 1 toilet buildings just to underline ownership. My wife put up a basic 20,000 bt structure and had electricity and water put in on her orchard.

Additionally, we sold a house on unregistered land, that we built for a friend who subsequently died. The thing about unregistered land from our experience, is a) No lawyer will recommend it to a farang, even a 30 year lease, despite our quoting local practice. Thais can't look at it, as unregistered land they can't get a mortgage. We got round it by agreeing a purchaser can make payments over 5 years, - so far, after 2 payments, it's working. All in all, I think you'll be OK to go ahead, especially with the family around - but do check the head-man and the tambon office.

[taninthai]

the thing you have to remember is thais can get away with most things ,they don't build mansions and resorts on this land ,once a ferang is seen around and if a big structure goes up things can change,as others have said keep it small and simple and keep a low profile and you will not have problems

[cheeryble]

Thankyou for that Maybefitz and Tanin all grist to the mill, agree entirely.

We're going today to hammer out details, and honestly I'm dying to have a proper poke around the site and the area I dropped by there for a quick bike ride after late arrival from CM yesterday must say I'm rather excited. (And noticed many fine boulders on the narrow site underneath which I immediately coveted.

So yes there are details like where exactly uncle will live and we think it best he keeps ownership of his own little corner (our equivalent price per wah will rise a bit but I think it's not a time to be petty, it's ok by me.)

It may well be best to just be sure the missus knows the things to ask and watch out for then stand back happy to trust and leave it all to her. No need for pettifoggery just nod and smile. I'm sure they managed to do these things before I came along. Having said that grandma and missus had a builder take 300,000 cash when building their CM house years ago and do a runner. (It did get built a substantial house but they had to fork out again. Wish I could get my hands around his neck talk about low ripping off a young girl and an old woman.

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Edited March 1, 2014 by cheeryble

[dighambara]

Unregistered land is technically Thai Government property - very similar to National Park land in the US. Just as in the US, private land may be on the sides of unforested Government land.

[cheeryble]

Got more information today and we shall all meet up with the pooyaybahn tomorrow. I have no objections and deposit already paid recently as someone else wanted it so I guess it's a done deal.

1. Uncle is now trying to organize private access to his lower patch with his sister-in-law (who lives with wife sister family and kids so is close). Borders of his area suggested as between two concrete fence posts either side and we fine with it (no there are no "luk")

2. Uncle has his own electricity meter for the land forgot to ask if normal rate which from a post above sounds a good thing.

3. No papers at all but all present owners of neighboring lots totally insistent they have checked it out and is fine. They call it "junk land" but I didn't get the Thai.

4. Am told if I build a house the pooyaybahn will definitely organize for a house permit.

I stupidly suggested perhaps it should be house permit first but was told clearly this is not how it works, silly me.

5. Am told this group of lots has been owned perhaps 20 years.

6. Am told about the cliff on the south side which I started a thread about that 10 or more years ago it was communally dug out and they sold the dirt as fill, the money going to building the church. Tried to climb in to inspect the cliff face but it will need a machete or cutter and time just to get to it, and naturally when I came out of the jungle full of grazes my wife said I was stupid it's been ok for 10 years why should it fall now? What this ignorant farang did do was find some smaller faces cut away to build a road nearby similar 80degree slope. It is quite hard though yes I can cut into it with a stick. Seems pretty strong and I don't see any cracks or rainwater channels cutting into the top

7. Found some nice exposed rocks on site.

So all in all a productive day and it seems we can have terrific views in three directions all round really so a bonus.

Edited March 1, 2014 by cheeryble

[kannot]

Cheeryble - an important factor is the input from the village head man and the Tambon office. I live in an area,70k N of Chiang Mai. Some land is registered, but most is not in the whole tambon of 9 villages. However, people have been trading buying and selling land regularly. Any transaction is sanctioned by the head man, and fully recorded in the Tambon office. Yes, we keep getting information that soon, the land registry department are going to sanctify people's holdings. In fact, 3 years ago, everyone had to go and show what papers they have to register their holdings. Nothing has happened yet - indeed, I think it's a regular gambit trotted out at election time, then like a lot of election promises in Thailand, nothing comes of it.

Interesting point about no building on agricultural land. My wife has an 11 rai Longan (Lumyai) orchard, not registered. The word went round that a recent court case was settled on the fact that the claimant had built on the land, underlining his ownership. It was found in his favour - so, everyone with unregistered land (a lot of people) suddenly put up little 1 room, 1 toilet buildings just to underline ownership. My wife put up a basic 20,000 bt structure and had electricity and water put in on her orchard.

Additionally, we sold a house on unregistered land, that we built for a friend who subsequently died. The thing about unregistered land from our experience, is a) No lawyer will recommend it to a farang, even a 30 year lease, despite our quoting local practice. Thais can't look at it, as unregistered land they can't get a mortgage. We got round it by agreeing a purchaser can make payments over 5 years, - so far, after 2 payments, it's working. All in all, I think you'll be OK to go ahead, especially with the family around - but do check the head-man and the tambon office.

Well I dont know where the head of the village was when my Wife bought??

The neighbour up the hill ( not either side) appeared with the agent, they told us what we owned, half was nor sor sam gor half up the hill was "no paper"

A week after we bought it another neighbour turned up and said "do you know that the land up the hill is ALL yours"

The first neighbour and the agent had decided to pull a fast one as the owner of the land was too ill to attend when we looked ( reason for sale) so they cleaved off 5 rai and planned to sell it using the road as access on our land,

After this we went to the seller and asked him to sign a paper saying the road access up the side of our land belonged to OUR land, he said it did and the man up the hill who had leased this land before we bought had asked permission to put a road up to his mangoes. This was his access as he had also stolen land off other surrounding neighbours who all said he could not cross their land anymore

So we knew he had stolen the land but said nothing..............UNTIL, we started to wall in our land which would block off the road access he had used, he then came round and said the road belonged to him ( he didnt know we had seen the owner and had a paper signed saying it wasnt)

We denied him access and asked him to prove the road was his, his son called my Wife and was quite rude, as an aside after we had the land we put in a larger pool( ie enlarged the waterhole) as the makros were digging it out two men appeared jumped into the bottom mud and started trawling for fish...............yes the same family!! The Wife told them to bugger off or the police would come. "who are you to stop us eating they said" anyway they went ( bit of background)

So next comes his Daughter saying the road is theirs, then the son on the phone again mouthing off...finally after a few days the FATHER of them all called and said ( 2 years after we bought) that YES the land up the hill was ours, that the road was ours and that the agent had told him to do this ( A lie for sure) so we called the agent to see, agent swerved round most of it and said land no papers anyone can use it hahahaha vague eh.

Next the neighbour on the side came and said PLEASE dont let him go up the road , no one likes him he has stolen land from everyone.

Together we said ok and hatched a plan, most of the road he wants to use is on our land but the bottom 10 metres is on the neighboursland so we told him YES you can use our road but to get onto our road you will have to cross the bottom 10 metres and speak with that neighbour.......who of course said NO.

It doesnt end there though, after telling us the land to his trees was ours I recently started to clear it, 2 days in the neighbour appears and says "thats not your land"

I called the Police as they also came on our land without permission on the same day, they told the Police the neighbour had agreed they could cross his small section of road...... The Police went and checked and they hadnt agreed at all, they are habitual liars......ongoing but Im gonna fight them for it.

All the village knows who owns what and who stole what and when, the man is disliked..

It remains he has no access and we argue over the 5 rai which he told us was ours 3 months ago in order he hoped to persuade us to let him use our road....which we did, but not the first 10 metres as not ours.

Edited March 2, 2014 by kannot

[maybefitz]

Good for you Kannot, stick it out. Yes, in our village we have a similar person pretty much disliked by everyone. The whole village gang up to deal with his devious ways and give him no

room to maneuver at all. If the rest of your village stick together you're on a winner. Thanks for your report.

[cheeryble]

Well pooyaybahn witnessed contract this morning and money paid so it's a done deal and everybody happy.

I did some exploring yesterday and discovered a very nice Swedish chap and wife behind a few hundred yards bought years ago just moved in then nearer a decidedly non-villagey Thai family with expensive people carrier and speaking English come to see how their future house is coming on, and am told on top of the big hill behind it is a doctor building so it seems the area is definitely up and coming.

I discovered the present electricity supply with it's own meter is across fields from near sister's house a single line on bamboo poles (I shall go to check cross section of conductor to see if we can share with uncle for now allowing for loss of voltage over that distance). On the other side near the new neighbors is a new public supply on concrete posts. Distances from both directions are about 400m. I pointed out that running 400m of public supply would mean about ten posted sections but we would have to pay the public supply rate which a friend says is about 12,000 baht (comments?) per section all-in, and brother in law was already there and suggested using the present direction of cable which is all relatives/friends land and making do for now then in a few years when the public cabling behind is extended to hook onto that.

As for water he suggests a well at a low point below the land near the valley floor will only need about 30m deep so should be a reasonable price. Presumably will need two pumps one at the bottom to pump up and one at top to give pressure if I don't want a tank in a tower which I might find rather ugly (gotta have a nice strong supply for shower and garden.)

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[cheeryble]

I checked the cable running to the land it has written on the side

Bangkok Cable 750v 70c PVC THW-A 10 sqmm TIS 293-2541 TABLE 1

So surprised it's 10sqmm not too bad I'm guessing that even with the run of 400 metres it would not drop enough voltage to affect even fairly heavy duty power tools during works, and enough to share for a modest house supply for uncle's little house when he rebuilds it and our weekend chalet......(no aircon likely it's a cool area)....sound right??

If memory serves right 2.5sqmm copper serves for 15amps over short runs, so even if it was aluminium it would take about 10 amps so 10sqmm would serve for 40/25ish amps over short runs and I can only guess it wouldn't drop more than half over a 400m run. Electricians put me right?

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