Hearing Aids

[kokesaat]

Some more info about my hearing aids:

They're now 3.5 years old, still work fine. However, I'm in the market for some new ones, hopefully with improved technology. I read an article in the New York Times a few days ago about GN ReSound hearing aids.....made by the Dutch (I think). That's what I'd love to have....but figure it'll be a few years before the prices come down to a reasonable level. But in doing a bit of research, it appears others are jumping on the app bandwagon.....with appliances that aren't sold as "hearing aids"...but do much the same thing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/technology/personaltech/app-controlled-hearing-aid-improves-even-normal-hearing.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/technology/just-dont-call-them-hearing-aids.html

When I first got my hearing aids, I bought batteries locally.....8 each for about 250 Baht. When I went to Texas on vacation, COSTCO had packs of 40 for $9.99. The COSTCO batteries actually last longer than the local ones....probably due to being produced more recently than what you buy locally. Last time I went to Texas, I bought 2 years worth.

I may visit Bangkok's eartone shop to see what they have on offer......Thanks for all the advice/comments about others' experiences. Very useful!

[Muhendis]

Some more info about my hearing aids:

They're now 3.5 years old, still work fine. However, I'm in the market for some new ones, hopefully with improved technology. I read an article in the New York Times a few days ago about GN ReSound hearing aids.....made by the Dutch (I think).

The last BTE I used was an Oticon Chili http://www.oticon.com/~asset/cache.ashx?id=5763&type=14&format=web

It was the clearest gadget I ever had the chance to use. It can be obtained through the Oticon dealer Audimed in Bangkok.

I have two, now unused. PM me if you think they might be useful to you.

[AmeriThai]

I haver never used rechargeables for my BTE hearing aids but I am now using them for my CI (cochlear implant). If it is anything to go by, my rechargeables last about 18 hrs against 3days for the zinc cells. So for me it is economical to have rechargeables. The batteries in my BTE used to last about ten days so it was not economically viable to use rechargeables.

It might be an idea to check how many charge/discharge cycles the manufacturer guarantees. This will tell you how often you will need to replace them and would give you a guide as to which would work out less expensive. Zinc air batteries in Thailand are about the same price as in the UK. however in the UK I used to buy in bulk on the internet to make significant savings. The zinc air batteries have a use by date which is two years after the manufactured date.

Thanks. That's the kind of info that's helpful to know. 18 hours before recharging, eh? I know you can pop the battery lid open (when not using) to avoid needlessly draining the battery. How many hours a day do estimate you wear yours? Sounds like you might be recharging every other day. My understanding is that recharging takes a couple of hours. That's not too bad. I'd guess if a person is going to be away from the charger for a few days, best to take along a few pairs of zinc cells.

The biggest hassle I'm having at the moment is that this is all new to me. There's a lot I don't yet know. Any way you look at it, it's more than just pocket change to buy a set. But it's important to me to be as informed as I can to make the right decision, even though I'm reasonably confident that the audiologist will do the best he can to help determine what's likely to be most suitable. As it is, the ones I'm looking at are going to cost about US$3550 for a pair of completely in the canal type. The mini behind-the-ear type is about US$3625. On the plus side, I'll have 90 days to decide if they're right for me. I do plan on trying to get the price lowered.

As far as I know, I don't seem to have any nerve damage. Still, I figure that even with the best of the best, although it'll be a big improvement, I'm not counting on it to completely replace natural hearing, rather just improve it over how it is now. Ironically, I'm musician/writer and rely on my hearing for sound levels, recording playback, etc. As it is, I've been pretty limited in that regard. I'm hoping a good set of HAs will help do the trick, but I may have to give it up and farm out some of it for better precision instead of doing it myself. Tuning up isn't a problem because I have graphic digital tuners that show me when it's in tune. In some ways, having my hearing go bad is turning into a life changing experience.

[Muhendis]

The 18 hrs between recharges is for continuous non-stop use. This works out as follows

Battery in and running at 06:00.

Battery off at something like 22:30

Battery in and running at 06:00

Battery changed at about 08:30 for fully charged battery.

I have four rechargeables as part of the deal. It is important to understand that the CI is a relatively power hungry bit of kit. Part of it is embedded inside the head and power needs to be transmitted to it through the skin and hair (for those amongst us that still have it). As far as recharging time goes I don't really have the figures for that but when one battery "dies" I pop it into the charger and retrieve a fully charged one to continue hearing. The charger is always on. The charger has a few adapters that allow it to be used in the car and any other place with different power connections.

As far as nerve damage is concerned it is easy to tell if you may have that from looking at your audiogram. If the bone conduction is chart is parallel tracking the air conduction chart particularly at the higher frequencies then it is quite likely that your loss is sensorineural. This means that the hair cells at the high frequency end of the cochlea have become non functional. This happens with old age and exposure to loud sounds. The hair cells are in contact with the auditory nerve and are the voltage generator for each nerve end. The auditory nerve itself is unlikely to be faulty. We each have about 5000 auditory nerves spread out around the length of the cochlea each one responding to a different sound frequency.

For a musician, loss of the higher frequencies is not necessarily a problem. Very few instruments can get up above top C (1024 Hz). So if your hearing drops off from 4 KHz onwards there will be little noticeable effect when listening to music. However wearing a modern hearing aid will make music sound strange. This is due to the way that the speech discrimination circuit works. Continuous sounds, as for example the car engine become filtered when the intermittent sounds of speech break in. Great if you're in a noisy bar trying to have a conversation. Not so good if you are trying to listen to a full orchestra with intermittent blasts coming from the trombone section. Also the speed of response of a (digital) hearing aid is important here. The faster the response the better. Best and most expensive is Oticon. There are program settings for music with most hearing aids but they all fall a bit short of the mark in comparison with a good ear. Trouble is if you need a hearing aid then you no longer have a good ear but you do have a memory of what sounds are right.

[CaptHaddock]

For a musician, loss of the higher frequencies is not necessarily a problem. Very few instruments can get up above top C (1024 Hz). So if your hearing drops off from 4 KHz onwards there will be little noticeable effect when listening to music.

Not true. C8 on a piano is 4186 Hz. Also, the timbre of musical instruments comes from the presence and relative strength of overtones which go higher than 6k Hz. Normal hearing is said to go to 20k Hz, but that's an arbitrary cutoff. Babies and Bedouins in the sound-pollution-free desert can hear 30k Hz.

[uptheos]

Some great information please keep it coming.

[AmeriThai]

The 18 hrs between recharges is for continuous non-stop use. This works out as follows

Battery in and running at 06:00.

Battery off at something like 22:30

Battery in and running at 06:00

Battery changed at about 08:30 for fully charged battery.

I have four rechargeables as part of the deal. It is important to understand that the CI is a relatively power hungry bit of kit. Part of it is embedded inside the head and power needs to be transmitted to it through the skin and hair (for those amongst us that still have it). As far as recharging time goes I don't really have the figures for that but when one battery "dies" I pop it into the charger and retrieve a fully charged one to continue hearing. The charger is always on. The charger has a few adapters that allow it to be used in the car and any other place with different power connections.

As far as nerve damage is concerned it is easy to tell if you may have that from looking at your audiogram. If the bone conduction is chart is parallel tracking the air conduction chart particularly at the higher frequencies then it is quite likely that your loss is sensorineural. This means that the hair cells at the high frequency end of the cochlea have become non functional. This happens with old age and exposure to loud sounds. The hair cells are in contact with the auditory nerve and are the voltage generator for each nerve end. The auditory nerve itself is unlikely to be faulty. We each have about 5000 auditory nerves spread out around the length of the cochlea each one responding to a different sound frequency.

For a musician, loss of the higher frequencies is not necessarily a problem. Very few instruments can get up above top C (1024 Hz). So if your hearing drops off from 4 KHz onwards there will be little noticeable effect when listening to music. However wearing a modern hearing aid will make music sound strange. This is due to the way that the speech discrimination circuit works. Continuous sounds, as for example the car engine become filtered when the intermittent sounds of speech break in. Great if you're in a noisy bar trying to have a conversation. Not so good if you are trying to listen to a full orchestra with intermittent blasts coming from the trombone section. Also the speed of response of a (digital) hearing aid is important here. The faster the response the better. Best and most expensive is Oticon. There are program settings for music with most hearing aids but they all fall a bit short of the mark in comparison with a good ear. Trouble is if you need a hearing aid then you no longer have a good ear but you do have a memory of what sounds are right.

If I'm understanding correctly, ti sounds like you must be changing the batteries every day. I am kind of thinking of going with rechargables.

With respect to the music, it's not so much about hearing higher frequencies, as most of what I deal with are well in the audible range. It's primarily about the clarity of individual sounds as well as collective sounds. At the present time, volume is part of the problem as well as clarity as it would be heard by any average listener. I do rely on the computer for visuals (meters, etc.), but hearing is also important. I can adjust the volume and tones to the headset or monitor speakers, but that's not the finished product that would be heard through an average stereo system. I also like to just sit back just to objectively listen to the results.

The demo HA's were adjusted for my hearing loss. In a way, it was clear and loud enough, but very different. I have to admit it didn't sound normal or natural at all. Rather artificial, canned and tinny. To me, normal sounds, such as vocals, tend be a lot smoother. I'm told that's pretty normal and that it can take anywhere from a few weeks to a few months to get adjusted to hearing certain sounds. The claim is that over time, the brain pretty well tunes out the canned effect and many people don't notice it any longer. If it proves to be too much of a hassle, I can always take them out while I'm monitoring recordings and put them back later when I'm done. If that doesn't work out, then I'll have to farm it out to a recording engineer and just stick with some of the basic stuff. I'm not too crazy about that because it's a lot cheaper doing it myself. Right now I have no real idea just how it's all going to pan out, but I can deal with it as it comes and find optional solutions. I'll have to play it by ear.

I've also seen some HA's that can be pretty spendy, upwards to US$6000+ and up per ear. That sort of thing is undoubtedly very nice, but way out of my price range.

[Muhendis]

For a musician, loss of the higher frequencies is not necessarily a problem. Very few instruments can get up above top C (1024 Hz). So if your hearing drops off from 4 KHz onwards there will be little noticeable effect when listening to music.

Not true. C8 on a piano is 4186 Hz. Also, the timbre of musical instruments comes from the presence and relative strength of overtones which go higher than 6k Hz. Normal hearing is said to go to 20k Hz, but that's an arbitrary cutoff. Babies and Bedouins in the sound-pollution-free desert can hear 30k Hz.

My comment was that very few instruments can get above top C. I know there are some that can but they are in the minority. Picking out specifically good hearing examples is fair enough but it just goes to show how hearing deteriorates with time and environment.

[Muhendis]

The way that a digital hearing aid works is by sampling the sound at very high switching speeds and then digitally filtering to requirement. What's left is then filtered back into an analogue signal and passed on to the ear drum. Electronic artifacts like a warbling effect do get added and are most noticeable when listening to music but for speech there is not too much of a problem It is my personal opinion that hearing aid designers have no interest in music. An analog hearing aid would probably be more useful for music. They are still about but you may have a bit of searching to do. There is also the possibility to use a bone conduction device which clamps onto the head a bit like a headband. I had to use one as an interim aid and, although too quiet for me the result was very clear. I think that came in at TBH19,000. It was a bit cumbersome since it hung like a pendant round the neck and a wire went up to the vibrating part clamped behind the ear. I got that from Vejthani hospital in Bangkok.

Rechargeable battery changes every day? Yup, but remember, mine is a power hungry CI.

I would have thought that letting someone else do your music production would be removing some of your artistic input to the listening joy of the millions. Music is after all a very subjective thing.

[Muhendis]

Any musician that cannot play by ear has only half a life.

[AmeriThai]

The way that a digital hearing aid works is by sampling the sound at very high switching speeds and then digitally filtering to requirement. What's left is then filtered back into an analogue signal and passed on to the ear drum. Electronic artifacts like a warbling effect do get added and are most noticeable when listening to music but for speech there is not too much of a problem It is my personal opinion that hearing aid designers have no interest in music. An analog hearing aid would probably be more useful for music. They are still about but you may have a bit of searching to do. There is also the possibility to use a bone conduction device which clamps onto the head a bit like a headband. I had to use one as an interim aid and, although too quiet for me the result was very clear. I think that came in at TBH19,000. It was a bit cumbersome since it hung like a pendant round the neck and a wire went up to the vibrating part clamped behind the ear. I got that from Vejthani hospital in Bangkok.

Rechargeable battery changes every day? Yup, but remember, mine is a power hungry CI.

I would have thought that letting someone else do your music production would be removing some of your artistic input to the listening joy of the millions. Music is after all a very subjective thing.

I don't think the bone conduction device as you describe it would work out very well with a headset. Might be okay for external speakers though.

I'm not sure how power hungry the devices are that I'm mulling over. But even if they have to be changed daily, I would think that the rechargables would save on expense in the long run over zinc cells.

Millions, you say? LOL. If other people like it, that's great. And if not, that's okay too. I do it for myself because I enjoy it and because it expresses whatever inspiration or mood is in my head at the time. Beethoven was quite deaf but still managed to crank out some pretty impressive tunes. Not that I'm any Beethoven. He had full compositions in his head and could write it down. As for removing artistic input by letting someone else handle the technical part of recording, it depends on how you look at it. There are plenty of talented sound engineers that are far more skilled and creative at what they do than I'll ever be. It's interesting, but composing and playing is still my main focus of interest. Although I do have hearing loss, it's mild to slightly moderate. I think some input can still be managed, but maybe just not so much with the finer details, especially with near seamless editing. I don't know. I'll just have to see what happens.

[Shurup]

A little late that I found this topic, but here's some advice from me regardless.

If you can, try to talk to an audiologist back in your home country if you can, they'd more likely fit you with the aids based on your needs vs their commissions, as I suspect it is the case in Thailand.

Based on your loss pattern, one style may give you better results than the other style. Folks with light to moderate loss shouldn't be wearing CIC (completely in canal) not ITC (in the canal) style but rather BTE (behind the ear). The reason for this is you still have your normal hearing left at a wide range of frequencies so putting a CIC or ITC "plug" in your ear will block your normal hearing. CIC and ITC will have to completely replace your normal hearing, when BTE only helps with where you actually have losses. This is also a reason why BTE batteries last longer as well as the batter size in BTE can be larger.

I've tried both styles and BTE feels and sounds so much better! In fact once you get used to the initial itching from the BTE's small receiver sitting in the ear canal, you will forget you even wear them! With my last pair of HA I have taken a shower multiple times wearing them as well as once went for a swim in the ocean! They survived

I now have the latest and best model from Siemens - Micon Pure 7Mi. This model can accept different size or receivers to accommodate users with different level of hearing loss. Comparing to my previous Oticon Mini's, Siemens is light years ahead! In the normal situation they're almost perfect but as most of other's said - in the noise they don't perform as good as in a quiet, but still, like I said before, comparing to the Oticon, they're light years ahead and they do help a lot in noisy environment due to their advanced noise cancellation. With my Oticons, I used to just take them out as they were making the matters worse.

It also took me years of frequent appointments with Audiologist to get them set up properly and still I wasn't happy. When I ordered my new HA, they came pre-programmed for my loss and they worked perfect! I purchased them from the online audiologist (had to send him my audiogram) and I did save a lot comparing to what specialized audiologists are charging for them! I also ordered a programmer with them so I can do all the changes I need at home at my leisure time, I can go out and test and come back 30 min later and adjust if necessarily.

And for the last - those who think about getting the smallest and "invisible" HA - forget about it! Nobody cares if you have anything stuck in your ear but YOU!! When you choose a small package, you sacrifice the options, performance and comfort! In time you'll see for yourself that people just don't care, you'll get an occasional glance at your ear(s) and even less frequent question. That's all. Why is it that in most people's mind it's more socially acceptable that people with bad eyes wear eye glasses comparing to people with bad ears wearing HA? It's all in your head I'm telling you, nobody cares. In fact BTE can be even less visible if you have any hear left on top

Hope it helps!

[uptheos]

Loads of fantastic information out there, all greatly appreciated.

[Muhendis]

Shurup refers to an effect that plugs the ear stopping normal sound from getting in. This is an effect called occlusion and can happen if you have a loss in the mild to moderate range. Occlusion is noticeable as an increase in low frequencies when you block your ear canal. It is not a problem for all users but for some it may preclude wearing a CIC. For the BTE wearers the same can also be true because an impression is made of the outer ear and canal and an earmold made that should be a good fit in that ear. A plastic tube connects the sound from the hearing aid to this mold. To get round the problem of occlusion an additional hole can be made in the ear mold or an open fit mold can be fitted. Both of these methods have the same effect of equalising the air pressure on both sides of the ear mold and therefore removing any bias on the eardrum. In the case of people with severe to profound deafness occlusion is not a noticeable problem also in this case because of the higher gain requirements any additional air conduction path would make feedback cancellation more problematical.

If you are in the UK then you can trust the NHS because they have no interest in commision. As Shurup says In the private sector you need to be aware that the audiologists requirements may not coincide with yours.

I agree with comments about feeling self conscious wearing a hearing aid. However it is a personal thing and for some people it is considered an admission that they are less than perfect. Against this, if people can see you are wearing a hearing aid they will usually be more inclined to speak clearly with you. There will be those that start exaggerating their mouth movements which would quite likely cause you to mentally roll your eyes heavenwards but a quick word in their ear soon stops that.

[Shurup]

^^ Yes the occlusion. As you said, drilling a small hole in the mold will eliminate it but still a lot of sounds will be blocked with really small holes. Larger hole will work better but as you also said the feedback cancellation will become an issue.

Not all BTE aids though have a hollow tube running from the aid and into the ear canal, most of the newest models have a clear wire instead with a small speaker attached to the end of it which sits inside the canal. BTE tubes/wires are held in place by silicone domes which can be open or closed, single or double - to accommodate a wide range of users. Molds can be fitted on there as well but normally not required unless it's a severe hearing loss.

[AmeriThai]

I just got my HA's today and I went for testing and adjustments. They are Siemens Insio IIC (invisible in the canal). There's no question that things sound quite different. I thought I had 90 days to try them out, but that's not right. I'll have 30 days and the audiologist has agreed to extent it longer if I need more time to decide if they're right for me. What I'm noticing is a lot more sounds at higher frequencies, but fewer or quieter sounds at lower frequencies. It may simply be a matter of getting accustomed to the change of hearing things differently. Still, if they don't hold up to my expectations, I can either ask for a full refund (I doubt I'll do that) or choose something else which will probably be a bit higher in price,

Certainly some people do choose ITE's, CIC's, or IIC's primarily for vanity reasons. In my case, which the audiologist agreed, my selection is more for more practical reasons, rather than being concerned of what other people might think. I do agree that most people don't really care one way or the other if someone is wearing hearing aids or not. It's just not a big deal, nor should it be because it's your hearing which makes it a personal matter.

One thing I did find out about these HA's, is that they are nano coated to protect the components from moisture. The audiologist said they should be able to handle a little exposure to moisture, but to remove the batteries and dry it out as soon as possible. If you're caught in a rainstorm, it's probably not going to be a big deal as long as you dry them out as soon as you can.

This pair of HA's sit really deep in the canal. I asked my wife if she could see them at all and she said no. All that's visible (and just barely) is the clear plastic 'cord' used to pull them out. You'd need to shine a flashlight in your ears to see them. Even at that. they're black so they still might not be easily noticed. In any case, I was given a demo with a BTE set, and found it has issues for me. The biggest problem is that they take up too much space for my needs. However, if IIC pair doesn't work out as I hope, the I might opt for something not as deep but has more features. There are some top of the line options available, but of course, that can come at a much higher price.

As strange as things sound right now, because it is a new experience for me, I'm heaing things much differently, It may seem weird, but I could hear birds chirping more clearly, sounds of traffic louder. Even the turn signals in my car had a louder clicking sound than I've heard before. Just little things like that seem really amazing. I was able to hear these things before, but rather muted and not nearly as clear. It seemed pretty funny to me hearing my wife's voice sounding very different. It was almost like listening to someone else.

It's going to be an interesting trial period to see how things go. At the moment though, I am wondering about whether I'll be able to hear lower frequency sounds clearly. I think they can be fine tuned to provide a reasonable balance. I have another appointment four days from now, so I'll see what can be done to tweak it a little more. These HA's do have a feature to mask the super high-pitched 'noise' caused by tinnitus. It seemed reduced in the office today, but now seems more apparent again. Sometimes it's really noticable and sometimes not as much. Hopefully that can be better improved.

[CaptHaddock]

I suggest you focus on the extent to which the HAs enable you to understand speech better. Do you ask people to repeat themselves less often than without them? Can you understand movies or TV better without missing dialogue? Do people seem to be mumbling less often than previously? HAs are engineered only to improve speech comprension, not for listening to music or any other purpose. I haven't heard about an anti-tinnitus feature, but it wouldn't be relevant for me anyway.

[AmeriThai]

I suggest you focus on the extent to which the HAs enable you to understand speech better. Do you ask people to repeat themselves less often than without them? Can you understand movies or TV better without missing dialogue? Do people seem to be mumbling less often than previously? HAs are engineered only to improve speech comprension, not for listening to music or any other purpose. I haven't heard about an anti-tinnitus feature, but it wouldn't be relevant for me anyway.

Thanks Capt. I'm not sure "anti-tinnitus" would be an accurate term. It's more of a tinnitus therapy feature. Unfortunately, there isn't any real way to cure or get rid of tinnitus. What I understand about the feature is that it creates enough 'white noise' to mask the tinnitus, at least enough to make it less noticable. I think it would depend on how severe the tinnitus is. If it's less severe, the feature could potentially block the tinnitus 'noise' out almost completely. But if it's more severe, then it may only provide a little bit of help. The real question is a matter of what's better, the tinnitus? Or the white noise? The solution is to find the right balance so that one doesn't overwhelm the other too much. In any case, it's a built-in feature of the HA's I'm using.

http://hearing.siemens.com/us/en/hearing-loss/tinnitus/solutions/solutions.html

There are HA's that can enable the user to listen to music. I have no idea exactly how well they might work in terms of making sounds closer to being more realistic though. At the present time, what I'm hearing are higher pitched treble (very bright and brassy) sounds but virtually no bass sounds at all that are smooth. It's like having an amplifier's tone control turned all the way up on treble. That's fine if speech is the only objective, but I would prefer more of a full range, or at least as full as possible. For what I'm presently using, it might be a matter of adjusting the HA's to reach a desired balance. It's also possible that the particular Insio model I'm trying right now might not have enough frequency range, in which case, the only other option would be to go with a different model. A lot of that would depend on the cost. What I'm doing now, is giving it a 'test drive', so to speak. If it can be adjusted to a satisfactory level, then that will be great. If not, then I'll try a different model that has a wider frequency range. And if that's out of the question, then I'll just have to live with it and work around it. I figure as long as I have the option to do so, there's no reason not to try out different models if need be and see what happens. However, I'm not expecting that anything with current technology os going to provide 100% perfection, but I do hope to get as close as possible.

[Shurup]

^^^ Try wearing them while turned off, can you hear the same with them sitting inside (powered off) vs not wearing them? I'm guessing they just block your ear canals preventing the sounds you can hear from reaching your ear drums. With all those HAs sitting inside the ear it's a common issue, they have to substitute for a whole range of frequencies rather than assist with the frequencies that you have losses at, when comparing to BTE

Some HA have an option to store a number of programs for different situations, my HAs can store up to 6 programs. Music program just has all the noise cancelling features off.

[AmeriThai]

^^^ Try wearing them while turned off, can you hear the same with them sitting inside (powered off) vs not wearing them? I'm guessing they just block your ear canals preventing the sounds you can hear from reaching your ear drums. With all those HAs sitting inside the ear it's a common issue, they have to substitute for a whole range of frequencies rather than assist with the frequencies that you have losses at, when comparing to BTE

Some HA have an option to store a number of programs for different situations, my HAs can store up to 6 programs. Music program just has all the noise cancelling features off.

Thanks Shurup. The way I understand it, the tinnitus therapy feature can help reduce the annoyance, but perhaps not always neutralize it completely. I think part of that depends on how severe it is. If it's not too severe, the feature may be able to mask it completely.

Are you able to change the programs you have stored easily? Some, if not many, if the BTE models have a way to manually switch between different programs for different kinds of environments as well as increase or decrease volume. Some of the ITE models are made so that you can tap your ear to change certain features like volume. I'm not really sure if I can do anything like that with the IIC model. I'll have to ask about that. I'm guessing that most features for mine will require making adjustments by the audiologist. I suppose if a person has the computer software and hardware, it could be done at home, but personally, I'd rather have someone who knows what they're doing deal with that.

I haven't put the IIC in with it off. I'd have to remove the batteries first. There has to be some direct sounds as the device has a 'tube' that runs from the outside to the inside of the canal. The main purpose is to help allow air to get in and to reduce any pressure differences a person may encounter. I have a tool with a flexible line to use to clean it out every so often. At a guess though, I'd say with the devices in place with the power off, external sounds are bound to be greatly muffled but still be able to hear some sounds, Just not as good as it the devices are not in the ears. I would agree that most of the sound frequencies are electronically controlled. However, both ITE and IIC devices use the natural shape of the ear to catch external sounds. Even the BTE devices are producing electronic frequencies. There might be some models from various companies that do indeed completely plug the ear. Frankly, it's not something I'd choose.

Getting the units out of the ear is easy enough to do but I'm still learning to put them in. Since they're custom made to fit my ears, but since I don't ordinarily stick things inside my ears, it doesn't always feel like their all the way in, but apparently they are, I'm just not use to how it feels.

[Shurup]

My HA's each have a rocker switch, I programmed them for one on the left to switch programs and turn the devices ON/OFF (without opening the battery door), and the one on the right controls the volume. These units are slightly larger than my retired Oticon Mini, but still are pretty small and not noticeable if I wear sunglasses. I also have a remote that can do all of the above + a lot more.

The CIC model from Siemens that I've tried years back, also had a small and very basic remote that let me change the volume and switch the programs. Remotes are usually optional equpment, ask your Audi if there's one for your model. Your devices may also be capable to store more than one program but all these changes would have to be done through the remote.

[AmeriThai]

My HA's each have a rocker switch, I programmed them for one on the left to switch programs and turn the devices ON/OFF (without opening the battery door), and the one on the right controls the volume. These units are slightly larger than my retired Oticon Mini, but still are pretty small and not noticeable if I wear sunglasses. I also have a remote that can do all of the above + a lot more.

The CIC model from Siemens that I've tried years back, also had a small and very basic remote that let me change the volume and switch the programs. Remotes are usually optional equpment, ask your Audi if there's one for your model. Your devices may also be capable to store more than one program but all these changes would have to be done through the remote.

Thanks again Shurup. Your input is greatly appreciated as it is helping me search for more specific and detailed information that can be useful for my needs. Keep it coming.

I'm pretty sure the devices I'm trying cannot be user controlled with a remote as you mentioned, nor are there any external switches or or controls, Changes can be made, but it pretty much requires a visit to an audiologist with the software and hardware to make such adjustments, I have not yet come across the frequency range specs. However, I have gathered the idea that the range varies depending on the model and the desired features. The device I'm trying out is the Siemens Micon 3 Insio model. It's a 3mi with 24 channels. There are Insio models that have up to around 48 channels, and more features.

Of the info I have come across, the devices I'm trying are might not be all that suitable for music. The frequency range for music can be wider than that for general speaking. The device I have appears to have a 12 kHz frequency range, although that doesn't say where the range begins and ends. I can see that HA's that can be programmed to remotely switched by the user between speech and music can be a real advantage. Unlike speech, lower frequencies for music is important. Here's an interesting link about that.

http://www.hearingresearch.org/ross/hearing_aids/listening_to_music_through_hearing_aids_the_music_program.php

One of the primary advantages of the IIC (or CIC) is that there are no external parts like the BTE devices to get in the way of headsets used to monitor audio recording sessions. Apart from that, I couldn't care less about how an HA may look. I need to look into it a bit more, but I think some of the CIC's may be more suitable in terms of having or programming a switchable program for music. I have no real idea of what the cost would be.

What I can do, although for me it's a hassle, is manage initial takes, rely on visual on-screen data, and let someone else with better hearing deal with frequencies that my own ears (or devices) can't perceive. At the moment, it's the lower range that I'm not hearing with the IIC HA. I'm pretty sure it can be tweaked to bring in more of the low sounds, but it still might be that the units I'm trying might not be suitable. It's something I'll be talking with the audiologist about. If the tweaking can achieve results that are more satisfactory, then I suppose I can deal with it. If not, then I may need to move up to something with better quality.

SIemens has some good info online, but at the moment, it looks like their website is down for some reason.

[Shurup]

Your HA model is new, it's not in my product line catalog so I couldn't tell what features are available. But I did notice that with Siemens most basic and smaller devices, the volume control and programs switch aren't available. Micon is a new and very advanced line up however so maybe your HA can hold more than one program that can be switched with a remote, ask the audi.

I hope I don't break any forum rules but here is a biggest online forum specifically dedicated for HA users: http://www.hearingaidforums.com/ you will get a lot responses there.

[AmeriThai]

Your HA model is new, it's not in my product line catalog so I couldn't tell what features are available. But I did notice that with Siemens most basic and smaller devices, the volume control and programs switch aren't available. Micon is a new and very advanced line up however so maybe your HA can hold more than one program that can be switched with a remote, ask the audi.

I hope I don't break any forum rules but here is a biggest online forum specifically dedicated for HA users: http://www.hearingaidforums.com/ you will get a lot responses there.

Well, it is new, but then all of this is new to me. The audiologist did say there are some interesting features, but he also said that the one I'm trying out has 24 channels. According to him, that should be sufficient for most typical circumstances, but it's limited in comparison to the model with 48 channels which can handle a wider range more easily. I'll be seeing him again in a couple of days. There's no question in my mind that the setting is too much in the high frequencies, and little in any lower frequencies. I also saw that the 3mi isn't really suitable for things like religious services, music and theater. The website is back up again. Scroll down to the 2nd page, and you'll see that while it has some good potential, for music, it's not likely to be able to handle a full range of frequencies that would be found. I'm not sure what the range is though. He seemed to think it would work fine for music, but so far, it's no where close to any sense of realism, unless you like high squeaky sounds. I'll see what happens after they've been adjusted. He did indicate that it may take a little time to tweak it just right, and to get accustomed to the devices. It's also going to take some time learning to get the things in. I think I'm doing it right, but I'm not sure. I was getting some feedback squeals (not loud) while they were in, and some sounds, like the traffic I was fascinated with, were really muffled today. I pulled them out, and the sound was much more clear and full in comparison. I may be doing something wrong. The information book isn't all that specific to the model.

http://hearing.siemens.com/us/en/_docs/publications/fall-2013/guide-to-digital-hearing.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

[Shurup]

The PDF file from your link doesn't provide much info, there should be a product catalog in Siemens web site somewhere, or even a separate brochure for your model.

If your model only holds one program, then you won't get any good sounding music out of your HAs. There will be a noise cancellation enabled in your program and the music is considered noise so it will be muted.

Number of channels, from what I know, only affects the noise cancellation performance, the operating frequency range is a different thing. The usable frequency range will be split into segments, as many as the number of channels. If a noise sound falls into a particular channel, it will be muted without affecting other channels very much. More channels gives you better noise isolation. That's how I understand it but I may be wrong.

[AmeriThai]

The PDF file from your link doesn't provide much info, there should be a product catalog in Siemens web site somewhere, or even a separate brochure for your model.

If your model only holds one program, then you won't get any good sounding music out of your HAs. There will be a noise cancellation enabled in your program and the music is considered noise so it will be muted.

Number of channels, from what I know, only affects the noise cancellation performance, the operating frequency range is a different thing. The usable frequency range will be split into segments, as many as the number of channels. If a noise sound falls into a particular channel, it will be muted without affecting other channels very much. More channels gives you better noise isolation. That's how I understand it but I may be wrong.

I'm coming across a bit more info, but none of it seem to be specifically or directly about the Insio IIC 3mi (Micon) model specifications. What I've learned so far, is that there are three tiers - 7mi (Premium), 5mi (Advanced) and 3mi (Standard). Both the 7 and 5 models are rated for music. The 3mi is not. I think both 7 and 5 can use a remote. 3mi cannot. The 3mi is mostly for private conversation or conditions where there isn't a wider variety of sounds. It's not rated as useful for music, cars, crowds, malls, etc.

I'll be visiting the audiologist in a few hours, so hopefully I'll be able to get more specific details. At the moment though, I'm thinking the 3mi is not going to be suitable for my needs. Prices I've seen for the 7mi are likely to be around 96,000 baht per ear. I have seen lower prices than that though. In any case, for me, something like the Insio IIC 7mi might be much more suitable. I'll update more on my experiences and findings shortly, and as they develop. Maybe it's not such a bad idea sharing all this as it's about dealing with this from scratch.

It should be noted that my own personal experiences may not necessarily be applicable for eveyone because there are many needs and conditions that are going to differ from person to person, and there are many other brands and models that might be more suitable for someone else. The primary object for anyone is to find what's going to be truly satisfactory for better hearing. Any way you look at it, buying hearing aids is a major expense, so it's important to make the best decisions that you know is going to be a big improvement to your quality of life.

[Shurup]

Good luck at your Audi appointment. I know what you're going through, my experience was similar with my 1st pair of HAs. I ended up having so many appointments with my Audi to get them right, that at the end I knew better than her what changes needed to be done. If was a huge inconvenience for me to set up any of those appointments as my Audi was back in Canada and I live in Thailand almost full time so the appointments were done during my frequent but short trips back home.

This made it easier for me to decide to buy my own programmer, but the HAs came pre-programmed so well that I haven't even done any changes to the main program, it works so well.

FYI, it cost me about $3500 for a PAIR of Siemens Pure 7Mi which came with a battery charger and a pretty advanced remote, all from an online Audi, I couldn't be happier!

[AmeriThai]

Good luck at your Audi appointment. I know what you're going through, my experience was similar with my 1st pair of HAs. I ended up having so many appointments with my Audi to get them right, that at the end I knew better than her what changes needed to be done. If was a huge inconvenience for me to set up any of those appointments as my Audi was back in Canada and I live in Thailand almost full time so the appointments were done during my frequent but short trips back home.

This made it easier for me to decide to buy my own programmer, but the HAs came pre-programmed so well that I haven't even done any changes to the main program, it works so well.

FYI, it cost me about $3500 for a PAIR of Siemens Pure 7Mi which came with a battery charger and a pretty advanced remote, all from an online Audi, I couldn't be happier!

I can see making appointments from half way around the planet isn't exactly a convenient way to do things. I understand that the Siemens Pure 7mi are quite good. The price sounds quite reasonable as well. I'm guessing the programmer you bought is a consumer program? Is it an app? Or do you use it with your computer? Overall, I feel that the audiologist I'm seeing knows more about the technical side of what he's doing than I do. Still, I know more about my personal perceptions of what I can hear or not hear than he does. I know what my own needs are, but need professional help to find the best solution. Communication is the key there.

I explained the notes I had taken, both pros and cons (mostly the cons), about the HA's I'm trying. From the information I provided, he was able to tweak them to make them more effective. They are now much more clear, not as tinny sounding, and have more of a fuller and wider range of sound. Listening to music now is a lot closer to what I would expect. One thing he suggested was that the vent tube might be too narrow, but wasn't sure if Siemens could make it any larger. The devices are pretty small and there isn't much room to work with as it is. In any case, the programmed tweaking seems to have made a good improvement. He seems to think that hearing the sound of my own voice could sound much louder, but it turns out that's not the case at all. There is a certain 'loudness', which is to be expected, but not overly so. In fact, it's much less than it was before which is a lot better than I expected.

The real question is whether or not the devices will really be suitable in the long run for the tasks I have. Anyway, the current objective is to continue with the model I'm trying to see if it can be suitable or not. He explained that (for this model) the 5mi or 7mi could provide smoother results, but is not likely to make a greatly noticable difference. The primary reason is because the size limits the amount of electronics. There's some wiggle room, but not much. A BTE model would likely be better because there's more room for more electronics. I would guess that in the future, the electronic components will be much smaller and more powerful than they are today. But the technology is not there yet. The drawback with the BTE, at least for me, is that the mics are also located behind the ears. That could be an issue with hearing in a spatial sense when using a stereo headset to monitor music. An option might be an ITE model, perhaps a half shell, or maybe an ITC, which would allow such directional hearing to be more natural, as well as larger to include more electronic components for more quality and more features.

In any case, I have another follow-up appointment next week to see how things are going. As it is, I've only had these things for a few days to try out. I'll see how it goes, and as mentioned, the tweaking has been a surprising improvement. I was pretty close to abandoning it. Completely changing to a different model is still an open option though. But I am now feeling much more optimistic about the devices I'm trying, so I'm going to give it some more time. I did make it clear that stepping up in price (within reasonable limitations of course) to something with better quality is not going to be a major issue for me.

One thing I've been mulling over is the prospect that no matter what kind of HA I get, I may still have enough limitations that I may have to give up on certain tasks and let someone else handle the fine details to polish things up. As it is, I need some extra input anyway since I'm 100% certain about the actual quality of recording results. I can manage basics, at least, but best to have another set of ears to double check for clarity details that I might not otherwise be able to hear. Again, as it is, my hearing loss is mild to slightly moderate, but that still could be enough to put a crimp on some things that I enjoy doing. I'll know soon enough.

[AmeriThai]

Since my last post, I determined that the Seimens IIC (Invisible In Canal) 3mi was not suitable for my needs. The bottom line for me is to be as satisfied as possible with the knowledge that the investment is an overall good one, I'm not saying the model isn't good, I'm sure it is. But it wasn't working out for me. It's good if the only thing you want to do is have a personal conversation with someone. It's impressive that it can fit so deeply in the canal that it can't be seen by anyone unless they get up close with a flashlight. Apparently, some people choose this model for vanity reasons, they don't want anyone to know they're wearing hearing aids. The ICC 7mi is more powerful, but not by much. The main problem is that they're so small that there's no room for any additional circuitry. As for me, I don't really give a rip if anyone can see I'm wearing HA's or not. It's to help improve my hearing, not theirs.

After more discussion with the audiologist, the conclusion was to try out a pair of ITC half shell 7mi. It has a lot more options and the 7mi is the top tier of the Micon technology. The vent tube is larger enabling exterior sounds to enter the ear better. I didn't pick out all the options available for it, but there are a good number of extras for it. I didn't choose a remote control device just because it would mean something else that needs batteries and would just be something extra I'd have to carry around. The device also has two microphones on each side. One mic is directional to pick up specific sounds like talking with someone, and the other is omni-directional which picks up other external sounds. Sounds are directed by the natural shape of the outer part of the ear, just like normal. The IIC model has a single directional mic to pick up sounds. The IIC model tends to filter out background noises. You can hear background noises, but it's mostly just noise. In addition, the frequency range for the IIC is pretty limited, so most sounds you hear sound canned and tinny, like a being in a tunnel.

The frequency range is much wider than the IIC model, meaning that I can hear more sounds more clearly because of a larger number of channels. The ITC half shell 7mi allows a wider range of conditions, I can better hear music and sounds while driving much better, which is something the IIC model is not rated to do.

The ITC model each has a button and a dial to adjust for different programs (of the device) and volume. What I find interesting is that you only need to do one side. It doesn't matter if you do it to the left ear or the right ear. It sends a signal to the other side to automatically adjust for the changes.

Since I've only had them a couple of days, I'm still learning to get them in my ears correctly. If I don't have them in properly, the emit a feedback squeal if I cover my ears with my hands. The pull 'string' to take them out with is pretty short and hard to find with my fingers, It's going to take some time to get the knack of doing these things. Like the IIC model, I have a 30 day trial period to determine if this model is going to be suitable or not. I'm a lot more optimistic with this ITC 7mi model, especially in comparison to the IIC 3mi model. I'll be seeing the audiologist each week in the meantime to make any fine tuning adjustments that may be needed. I'm taking notes as to any pros and cons I experience with them. So far, they seem to be comfortable and provide much better hearing than I expected. They do seem to be rather loud and I'm hearing some loud clicks occasionally. I'll keep you posted on how things are turning out.

[CaptHaddock]

Since my last post, I determined that the Seimens IIC (Invisible In Canal) 3mi was not suitable for my needs. The bottom line for me is to be as satisfied as possible with the knowledge that the investment is an overall good one, I'm not saying the model isn't good, I'm sure it is. But it wasn't working out for me. It's good if the only thing you want to do is have a personal conversation with someone. It's impressive that it can fit so deeply in the canal that it can't be seen by anyone unless they get up close with a flashlight. Apparently, some people choose this model for vanity reasons, they don't want anyone to know they're wearing hearing aids. The ICC 7mi is more powerful, but not by much. The main problem is that they're so small that there's no room for any additional circuitry. As for me, I don't really give a rip if anyone can see I'm wearing HA's or not. It's to help improve my hearing, not theirs.

After more discussion with the audiologist, the conclusion was to try out a pair of ITC half shell 7mi. It has a lot more options and the 7mi is the top tier of the Micon technology. The vent tube is larger enabling exterior sounds to enter the ear better. I didn't pick out all the options available for it, but there are a good number of extras for it. I didn't choose a remote control device just because it would mean something else that needs batteries and would just be something extra I'd have to carry around. The device also has two microphones on each side. One mic is directional to pick up specific sounds like talking with someone, and the other is omni-directional which picks up other external sounds. Sounds are directed by the natural shape of the outer part of the ear, just like normal. The IIC model has a single directional mic to pick up sounds. The IIC model tends to filter out background noises. You can hear background noises, but it's mostly just noise. In addition, the frequency range for the IIC is pretty limited, so most sounds you hear sound canned and tinny, like a being in a tunnel.

The frequency range is much wider than the IIC model, meaning that I can hear more sounds more clearly because of a larger number of channels. The ITC half shell 7mi allows a wider range of conditions, I can better hear music and sounds while driving much better, which is something the IIC model is not rated to do.

The ITC model each has a button and a dial to adjust for different programs (of the device) and volume. What I find interesting is that you only need to do one side. It doesn't matter if you do it to the left ear or the right ear. It sends a signal to the other side to automatically adjust for the changes.

Since I've only had them a couple of days, I'm still learning to get them in my ears correctly. If I don't have them in properly, the emit a feedback squeal if I cover my ears with my hands. The pull 'string' to take them out with is pretty short and hard to find with my fingers, It's going to take some time to get the knack of doing these things. Like the IIC model, I have a 30 day trial period to determine if this model is going to be suitable or not. I'm a lot more optimistic with this ITC 7mi model, especially in comparison to the IIC 3mi model. I'll be seeing the audiologist each week in the meantime to make any fine tuning adjustments that may be needed. I'm taking notes as to any pros and cons I experience with them. So far, they seem to be comfortable and provide much better hearing than I expected. They do seem to be rather loud and I'm hearing some loud clicks occasionally. I'll keep you posted on how things are turning out.

AmeriThai,

I wish you the best of luck with your hearing aids. However, your post exhibits many of the fallacies found in such discussions:

1. more channels improves your hearing: most research does not support this belief. How could there be, since your audiogram only measures your hearing loss at 7 or so frequency points? That means there is no information available to boost the signal in the many other channels your HAs provide.

Experimental data confirms this observation. Here is a graph of the "Audibility quantified by improvement in Articulation Index as a function of the number for gain and compression channels. Each curve represents data from individual audiograms:"

In the study results depicted there is no additional improvement in speech recognition beyond 5 channels.

http://www.audiologyonline.com/ask-the-experts/what-optimum-number-hearing-aid-466

2. I notice that your evaluation of your HAs, like virtually every other subjective evaluation I have encountered of HAs on the internet, does not mention any improvement in speech recognition. Since speech recognition is the purpose of HAs, (which we know because HAs only cover the frequency range of speech, not music), aids that fail to provide an improvement in understanding speech are simply not better.

So, I think you are fooling yourself. There have been many experiments asking wine enthusiasts to evaluate wine in blind taste tests from which we know that they cannot distinguish expensive wine from cheap wine, in general. Nevertheless, when they know the price of the wine they always report enjoying the expensive wine more. This is the reason that unlike the price of all other electronic devices, the price of hearing aids has been increasing in the last ten years as the boomers age into the crosshairs of the hearing aid industry.

What I expect is the case is that you understand speech a lot better with your new HAs compared to without them, but not better than a much cheaper pair.