Smoke

[cardinalblue]

I would say the air pollution here is much more than a slight irritant...and not just a few weeks ..

I think the problem westerners have is they are caught in a perception issue where clean air water and soil are rights in where they were raised...

And in Asia env benefits are privileges where high expectation attitudes and levels don't exist...

Env degradation is normal for them and they have no benchmarks to compare...

Very complex issue based on many systems working together..takes a long time for effective change and probably won't happen in the lifetime of most board members....

CB

[kimbathewhitelion]

You know how much money they would make off of fines for people burning? further more how much they would make off parking and traffic violations.

Its more about them being stupid and lazy.

...Again, too many hamburgers and not enough fries.... why do you even live here?....sounds like you want CM to be just like back home with burger palaces & rules and regulations coming out of every social orifice.

The lack of organization and implementation of government systems and policy at the ground level is one thing that makes this place fun to live in (for me anyways).

A slight irritate of smog/smoke for a few weeks every year...so what! Don't be so "stupid and lazy"...Get on a plane and go to the beach if it bothers you that much.

They burn all over Thailand and surrounding countries. Going to the beach doesn't solve the problem bonehead. It's nice to see your so accepting of someone elses stupidity shortening your life span. I'll be sure to bring you a card when you're brain dead (if your not already) and paralyzed in the hospital cause you were ran over by a drunk driver going the wrong way and the rescue workers showed up to take pictures of you instead of save you because he's having so much fun afforded to him by the lack of organization and implementation of government systems and policy.

Why the hate?

(Really, why?)

On topic: going to the beach doesn't "solve" the problem for the North, but it does definitely "work around" the problem for the individual who moves outside of Northern Thailand.

If you go on holiday anyway, March is a great time to do it. (Also if you have kids, as it's the main school holiday too.)

Actually in all reality, plan it mid December. They now start the burnings in early December. Waiting till March, your kids will already be damaged for life. Leave CM from the beginning of January & return either a day before Songkran or the week after.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[WinnieTheKhwai]

They burn all over Thailand and surrounding countries. Going to the beach doesn't solve the problem bonehead. It's nice to see your so accepting of someone elses stupidity shortening your life span. I'll be sure to bring you a card when you're brain dead (if your not already) and paralyzed in the hospital cause you were ran over by a drunk driver going the wrong way and the rescue workers showed up to take pictures of you instead of save you because he's having so much fun afforded to him by the lack of organization and implementation of government systems and policy.

Why the hate?

(Really, why?)

On topic: going to the beach doesn't "solve" the problem for the North, but it does definitely "work around" the problem for the individual who moves outside of Northern Thailand.

If you go on holiday anyway, March is a great time to do it. (Also if you have kids, as it's the main school holiday too.)

Actually in all reality, plan it mid December. They now start the burnings in early December. Waiting till March, your kids will already be damaged for life. Leave CM from the beginning of January & return either a day before Songkran or the week after.

1. It's not the case that burning now starts earlier than before. Across all months of the year, the trend is one of slight improvement.

2. The average PM10 for December over teh last 5 years is around 35-40. January is 40-50. The EPA and any international environmental standards organization disagrees with you that those kinds of levels have any effect at all even on at-risk groups. (Those levels are classified as 'Good'). Good air doesn't damage people, and especially not for life.

Edited March 13, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[VegasVic]

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I can't help but be reminded of Los Angeles (California) on a bad smog day.

When's the last time you were there, the 1950's? Do you ever travel? You should get out more. Try New Dehli, and then go to Beijing, then several cities in Iran and Pakistan, and then come on back to India, all after you've seen at least a hundred other cities that make Los Angeles seem mountain fresh. This Chiang Mai smoke crap blows away anything that LA has had in YEARS.I

I was in LA in the 70's and the smog was so intense at times that you could not venture outside without a surgical mask. Also the smog in LA was far more toxic than the smoke in CM as it was largely made up of carbon monoxide I know that doesn't make the residents of CM or many other places in the north feel any better, it will take many years of education to keep the farmers from burning and even then that will only be the farmers in Thailand and much of the smoke comes from Burma

[cardinalblue]

Can Burma say the same thing that their air pollution comes from Thailand?

Wind movement is minimal in the CM basin so not sure if the blame game from other Countries or provinces is that valid...

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^ While winds are low, air movement does happen. You can see the 'blanket' extend through the larger region. And in late Feb or March it begins covering Chiang Mai. Local sources do contribute of course. I'm not sure you can blame any particular country, it truly is a region wide problem.

Edited March 14, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[northernjohn]

^ While winds are low, air movement does happen. You can see the 'blanket' extend through the larger region. And in late Feb or March it begins covering Chiang Mai. Local sources do contribute of course. I'm not sure you can blame any particular country, it truly is a region wide problem.

Well it defiantly is not nice.

I watch a lot of Chanel NewsAsia and a lot of cities make Chiang Mai look good.

If any one has respiratory problems it is not the place to be from ball park mid February to mid April. If you don't it is not really that bad. The only reason some say it is bad is because they read some figures that said it was bad. They were OK with it up until then.

As has been said the air movement may be slow and when it does blow in the smoke from forest fires it takes a long time to move it out.

On the topic of burning rice fields. A friend of mine was telling me that a study was done a few years ago that showed that for the small farmer using Buffalo was more profitable and they did not need to burn.

He said that the Government had set up a small school to train farmers it was a ten day course and it only took two days to train the Buffalo.

Edited March 14, 2014 by northernjohn

[khwaibah]

^ While winds are low, air movement does happen. You can see the 'blanket' extend through the larger region. And in late Feb or March it begins covering Chiang Mai. Local sources do contribute of course. I'm not sure you can blame any particular country, it truly is a region wide problem.

Well it defiantly is not nice.

I watch a lot of Chanel NewsAsia and a lot of cities make Chiang Mai look good.

If any one has respiratory problems it is not the place to be from ball park mid February to mid April. If you don't it is not really that bad. The only reason some say it is bad is because they read some figures that said it was bad. They were OK with it up until then.

As has been said the air movement may be slow and when it does blow in the smoke from forest fires it takes a long time to move it out.

On the topic of burning rice fields. A friend of mine was telling me that a study was done a few years ago that showed that for the small farmer using Buffalo was more profitable and they did not need to burn.

He said that the Government had set up a small school to train farmers it was a ten day course and it only took two days to train the Buffalo.

That Buffalo is it dead or alive and is it two or four legged.

[cardinalblue]

In the bkk post just a few days ago Thailand ranked near the bottom on rice net income compared to its biggest ASEAN rivals...

Operating costs were higher and rice yields much lower...and the damn amount of pesticides application...

Habits are hard to break and burning is just one of them in this way of life...

Still have yet to see intentional burning incl forests vs true wild fires...my interpretation is they seem to include intentional burning to clear for crops as wild fires and this is a big mistake if they wish to generate proper #s to find solutions...

[15Peter20]

Glad I got out of Chiang Mai at last, together with kids. This Bangkok air is much better.

[Cheesekraft]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/paris-pollution-hits-life-threatening-level-1.2573059 (paris pollution hits life-threatening levels)

exact same (147) air pollution as chiang mai! Welcome to the beginning, it only gets worse from here!

Edited March 15, 2014 by Cheesekraft

[Phrafarang]

I am halfway between Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai and the smoke up here is some of the worst I have seen. I have been unable to see even across to the other side of the rice fields behind my house. I took a scooter ride to the village on the other side of those rice fields and I was unable to see my house so I am living in the middle of it. At night you can see the fires all across the mountains where they are burning. If the winds are right Chiang Mai is going to get a lot worse over the next few weeks.

[tangcoral]

Doi suthep finally disappeared behind the white cloud.

Just over the cylindrical building is where doi suthep temple located.

Edited March 15, 2014 by tangcoral

[Tywais]

PM10 of 120 is the danger threshold.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Daily Average, yes. The graph shows individual values, which of course vary through the day.

(Not that I'm going outside though right now, but still. )

[Chicog]

.... And they'll start spraying the sensors again....

[HaleySabai]

Actually in all reality, plan it mid December. They now start the burnings in early December. Waiting till March, your kids will already be damaged for life. Leave CM from the beginning of January & return either a day before Songkran or the week after.

...I don't know where you are living..(take your head out of your ass and look around)..... In my locale of CM the weather is beautiful,air is fine,right up to Mar.01..... This year the winter was colder and longer than usual (glorious as it was) but with that and the 10's of thousand of 'keep warm' spot-fires burning there may have been early contribution to the smog-index.

As far as leaving CM, I take it a step further and blow the popsicle-stand from May-Oct and breath the freshest of fresh air on Vancouver Island. I don't worry about my kids,chump....CM is hardly one of the worst and polluted places in the world to live.

[Tywais]

Two flames removed.

[northernjohn]

Actually in all reality, plan it mid December. They now start the burnings in early December. Waiting till March, your kids will already be damaged for life. Leave CM from the beginning of January & return either a day before Songkran or the week after.

...I don't know where you are living..(take your head out of your ass and look around)..... In my locale of CM the weather is beautiful,air is fine,right up to Mar.01..... This year the winter was colder and longer than usual (glorious as it was) but with that and the 10's of thousand of 'keep warm' spot-fires burning there may have been early contribution to the smog-index.

As far as leaving CM, I take it a step further and blow the popsicle-stand from May-Oct and breath the freshest of fresh air on Vancouver Island. I don't worry about my kids,chump....CM is hardly one of the worst and polluted places in the world to live.

With all that rain it has to be fresh air. You better hope it doesn't turn into acid rain.

Well with that being said James Bay is OK.

[HaleySabai]

Nope, miss the rain...try Tofino. And No Iam Not worried about radiation from Japan.

[jaideeguy]

So, we know that the smoke is caused by the fires burning all around SE Asia. Makes me wonder what it was like 50 or 100 years ago. I'm sure they didn't take records then, but it must have been just as bad ...............or maybe worse. Do we have any old expats that can reply??

Edited March 16, 2014 by jaideeguy

[evenstevens]

i arrived 2001,and until approx2004,the smoke or smog was reasonable,perhaps as the papers put it now. a haze

and generally the month of april was at its peak,now a days it starts slowly in feb ,by middle of march passes the dangerous levels until approx end of april

unless rain or storms intervene accompanied by strong winds,having lived for 9 yrs out in the foothills at mae rim,have seen deliberate burning by the local authorietys ,in fact last night a small hill approx 250 yards from our property was professionally set alight,not the first time i might add,they use a lge cannister can which drops the fuel and another man follows lighting the fuel trail at intervals and by transversing the hill the interval fires lit link up,(from experience australia use the same method when back burning or making fire breaks ) and presto within 30 mins i have a huge fire on my door step,only a dirt soi seperating it,as a prevention we fired up our sprinkler system, but luck was on our side and the fire stayed on the hill,my only beef ,it would be nice to be told what they intended to do but sadly they do it under the cover of darkness,and are not seen,see how we go tonite

all have a nice evening..evenstevens

[Chicog]

So, we know that the smoke is caused by the fires burning all around SE Asia. Makes me wonder what it was like 50 or 100 years ago. I'm sure they didn't take records then, but it must have been just as bad ...............or maybe worse. Do we have any old expats that can reply??

Probably better because there weren't all those poorly maintained vehicles spewing crap into the air.

[jaideeguy]

I would think that the poorly maintained vehicles cause a small fraction to the haze and 50 to 100 years ago, there was probably more wood burning for cooking.

[Chicog]

I would think that the poorly maintained vehicles cause a small fraction to the haze and 50 to 100 years ago, there was probably more wood burning for cooking.

I wouldn't.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

i arrived 2001,and until approx2004,the smoke or smog was reasonable,perhaps as the papers put it now. a haze

and generally the month of april was at its peak,now a days it starts slowly in feb ,by middle of march passes the dangerous levels until approx end of april

It wasn't. Likely you noticed it less. (You arrived in 2001; 1999 was the worst year on record.)

But measurements have been made going back to 1996, and it was actually worse back then, on average.

Also, the month of April was not the peak, it was March, just like now, and just like the foreseeable future.

The data is all there if anyone would like to take a look. ( http://aqnis.pcd.go.th/en/data )

[northernjohn]

I would think that the poorly maintained vehicles cause a small fraction to the haze and 50 to 100 years ago, there was probably more wood burning for cooking.

Good point.

With the exception of a few who are sensitive to air pollutants the rest of the year is OK.

If the rest of the year is not good they might want to consider a beach in the south.

Come to think of it I like the idea except the wife's family is here and it is probably to hot there for year round.

where I came from we had a season that was not good for people with allergies. I don't hear of that as being a problem here in Chiang Mai.

Edit

Forgot to add they probably burned a lot more garbage then.

Nothing like a ride through the country to the smell of fresh burned garbage.

Edited March 16, 2014 by northernjohn

[Microwave]

Any old expats who can reply? I resemble that remark...

In 1984 the smoke was a fraction of what it is now. Chiang Mai was a sleepy town back then, the streets rolled up at 7 pm. The city didn't sprawl nearly as far as it does now.

Nimanhaemin was the edge of town, no KSK & the Amari Rincome hotel was in business and was a high end hotel. Some small noodle shops clustered on either end of CMU. Development in the opposite direction didn't extend past the Arcade bus station nor further north past the Chang Puak gate. I don't recall much on the southern end of Chiang Mai past the airport.

I have photos of a younger me taken in April 1984 posing by The Pub on Huay Kaew (a popular hangout way back then) & Doi Suthep was clearly visible. Draw whatever conclusions you wish from these memories of this old expat

Edited March 16, 2014 by Microwave

[HaleySabai]

Somebody had posted pics of CM in the 1970's and guess what, 'same-same' but no doubt different in intensity and longevity.

Ive' been here since 1995 and it has never been an issue for me up until 2006-07, the Royal Flora festival year, that period was extremely bad- pollution generated from 3.7 million visitors then compounded by the burning of garbage accumulated over the 3 month festival period.

Each year since doesn't seem to be any more pronounced. I still find it tolerable even though I do vacate CM during the peak-period mostly out of an excuse for a sea-side holiday. As far as environmental health issues, I am more concerned about harmful EMF from my back-lite devices than "cancer" from the smoke. Exercise common sense - close windows & stay in doors during the peak time ,avoid jogging around the moat during rush hour - simple - and if you are perhaps overweight, with breathing or bronchial disorders,Asthma et..then best consider a holiday somewhere more palatable to your condition.

Edited March 16, 2014 by HaleySabai

[jaideeguy]

Wish that there was some way to dig up some data and confirm my suspicions that SE Asia has always been a smokey area at this time of the year. Just looking at the satellite map that we now have and seeing that most of the burning is now surround us and most probably started by hill tribe people who don't give a shirt..............they have always been there, right, or did they just arrive this century?