Is It Only A Lack Of Education, Or The Norm?

[lostinisaan]

Hello,

Just hang up on a phone call with my wife.I've experienced so may things that are different to our cultural behavior to those Thais living in Isaan.

In the beginning I was wondering why people who haven't seen each other for ages, seem to ask the same for me weird question, if they'd eaten already.

That leads me straight to my concern. I used to live in my wife's village many years ago, for about a year. Many of them dies because of alcohol excess in form of Lao khao.

Now one of my favorite guys seems to have a liver cirrhosis, he didn't go to the Sisaket hospital for a liver punction to see how bad it is. Okay, tried to find out on the weekend where he was, but didn't really succeed.And I had been busy doing school bs and other nonsense.

Now he's back in the village to die, made the decision that he doesn't want to go to the hospital. I know quite a lot about medical problems, if that's even suitable to describe the circumstances.

I studied a few semester medicine and do know how important a tiny part of his liver is for further investigations and medication. Honestly, I've got tears in my eyes writing this and I will do all to get him to this hospital.

I've also sent some mails to my niece and another doctor to find out what medicine/ food would be appropriate, as I only get into an argument speaking about him.

Any ideas how to get a grown man into a hospital, but not even able to do so immediately, as I've got my job to do. Will try to take a day off and get him to the hospital. We're friends since 12 years and I'm certain that he will listen to me.

I'm aware that none in the village knows much about his medical condition and I can't live with the thought that they're waiting for him to die.

He doesn't drink anymore alcohol, but also doesn't eat. Any advice would be deeply appreciated. Thanks.

[lostinisaan]

Tried to convince my wife that somebody brings him to the hospital by tomorrow but now she hang up. I freak out about this human ignorance.

Will have many visitors coming to our school tomorrow, then I will try take him to the hospital, even if I have to handcuff him.

Edited March 18, 2014 by lostinisaan

[Sandman77]

Here the questions I hear every day!

Since 2 years!

The top 5

-1 does the farang drink or smoke a no but mostly not believe

2 want farang baby or not , most of them allready have 3 children and no husband!

3 is the farang rich

4 can farang borrow me money around 4 people come every month

5 , where you go when you come back

And the bonus question where do you see Falange

We order them one the net for one million bhat

With free c o d

In my opinion the. Reason of the daily same question

Is a hidden jealousy , behind the smile

And the best of all my wife translate me what people all would

Do when have farang buy the gold go the casino!

The style of swagger about money !

Also when some one win in lottery!

It will hang on the big bell and all In village knows !

And also the exact amount and money was someone have given for married!

For thais it's impossibly to make

A secret sometime I got angry with

My wife and she with me

The aswer was, when I not tell everything the people ask more!

I tell the best aswer you can give is no aswer!

[lostinisaan]

Here the questions I hear every day!

Since 2 years!

The top 5

-1 does the farang drink or smoke a no but mostly not believe

2 want farang baby or not , most of them allready have 3 children and no husband!

3 is the farang rich

4 can farang borrow me money around 4 people come every month

5 , where you go when you come back

And the bonus question where do you see Falange

We order them one the net for one million bhat

With free c o d

In my opinion the. Reason of the daily same question

Is a hidden jealousy , behind the smile

And the best of all my wife translate me what people all would

Do when have farang buy the gold go the casino!

The style of swagger about money !

Also when some one win in lottery!

It will hang on the big bell and all In village knows !

And also the exact amount and money was someone have given for married!

For thais it's impossibly to make

A secret sometime I got angry with

My wife and she with me

The aswer was, when I not tell everything the people ask more!

I tell the best aswer you can give is no aswer!

Sorry, but only need some fast advice and the guy is my friend. He's Thai and what Thais about us think is not important now. It's about a friend who's very sick.

And that's the problem

[plachon]

Sorry to hear about your friend's illness Lostinisaan. As you probably know, liver disease is very common in Isaan as a result of a combination of factors, we don't need to go into here. In fact, Isaan has the highest rate of liver cancer in the world, which I suspect is what your friend may have. If he has returned home with the express wish not to go back into hospital and has come to terms with his terminal illness and knows the end is not far off, my sense would be to respect those wishes, no matter how hard it might seem to you. No doubt your wife and other people in the village recognise the symptoms, know the inevitable outcome, understand his wishes to die at home and find your well-meaning attempts to send him back to hospital, an extra hassle they'd rather not have to deal with. Hence, the reason she put the phone down on you.

It's tough I know, but every village sees the same cases almost week or month in and month out, and realise that there's not much that can be done, once the disease has taken hold. He would probably much rather die in peace at home, having seen others in a similar situation.

And as for the "have you eaten yet?" as a greeting, look on it as something like Brits talk about the weather - a cultural idiosyncracy - and something to play along with rather than get too concerned about. Unlike your friend, who I'm sure would appreciate your concern about his wellbeing by paying a visit by you to his home and asking everyone when they last ate.

[bina]

the 'have u eaten'? is the same as 'hey whats up? or 'how's it hanging;? it comes from way back when strangers came, as a host you had to feed them. btw, same as in the bible, and even now among jewish families, food is put out regardless if u have eaten or not.... also among arab families. its hospitality, which could make the difference between a friedn and an enemy (someone u ate with is less likely to atack you later that night whenu are all asleep)...

as for hospitals: what plachon says. the thais i know dont interfere with other poeples' decisons even if theya re bad decisions (as a majority of them are).

as for showing money after a wedding: same same in the middle east. its rude not to do so. its part and parcel with the whole 'face' and 'show' thing.

teh same questions over and over? because they dont have much else to talk about iwth you? can they ask you about your latest crop? or what fish u caught recently? they dont exactly play wall street stocks or anything like that....

they have a stereotype of what u are and therefore they try to be polite and ask about things that fit the stereotype.

once you get past that u can usually find other things to talk about in thai

[lostinisaan]

the 'have u eaten'? is the same as 'hey whats up? or 'how's it hanging;? it comes from way back when strangers came, as a host you had to feed them. btw, same as in the bible, and even now among jewish families, food is put out regardless if u have eaten or not.... also among arab families. its hospitality, which could make the difference between a friedn and an enemy (someone u ate with is less likely to atack you later that night whenu are all asleep)...

as for hospitals: what plachon says. the thais i know dont interfere with other poeples' decisons even if theya re bad decisions (as a majority of them are).

as for showing money after a wedding: same same in the middle east. its rude not to do so. its part and parcel with the whole 'face' and 'show' thing.

teh same questions over and over? because they dont have much else to talk about iwth you? can they ask you about your latest crop? or what fish u caught recently? they dont exactly play wall street stocks or anything like that....

they have a stereotype of what u are and therefore they try to be polite and ask about things that fit the stereotype.

once you get past that u can usually find other things to talk about in thai

Thanks a lot for taking the time. I'm aware of different cultures, that not just the British folks is discussing the weather, when they obviously have not much to say. Pretty similar to foreigners in Thailand, working with Thais at schools. "Roon mai,ka? Roon maak,khrap Etc...

I went through other strange stuff, when i still used to live in the village, almost 12 years ago. Another uncle who drove a Songtaew had a stroke and they found him in the rice fields unconscious. Good luck for him, as it was the rainy season but it didn't rain this day, as he would have been drowned.

So,they brought him to his house, then I went to see him when I heard the "news". At this time, I still having savings and I have a car, I said that I would bring him to Surin (only 100 km away). where they have a stroke unit and I'd pay for all.

His wife, my wife's auntie thought, but then wanted to wait one more day. Pointless to try to tell them that I knew what was wrong, explain what a stroke is etc...

Then my wife once came back from a visit and told me that some older men and monks were dancing around and tried to take the ghosts out of him. Tried to convince them, but they didn't get it. Finally, he had to be brought to the local hospital in Uthumphon Phisai, hanging on machines, etc...

Then the doctor sent him to Surin in an ambulance. The professor told them why they couldn't bring him earlier, as he had a stroke and it was too late. He gave the patient two weeks and he did after 10 days. Then my wife understood what I was trying to say.

Now it seems that the guy the thread is about has got Aszites, which samples a lot of water in the stomach, caused by a Non functioning liver. Could be cancer, could be anything else.This is not a diagnoses where you just have to wait for your death anymore.

Trying to see him tomorrow and will do all to save his life. Wish you all a healthy life and cheers when you drink.

It's not that they wouldn't let me bring him to a hospital, they're like animals, who just follow the one who makes a decision. And I had made mine. I won't let my friend die there under unbelievable circumstances. Thanks to all your good posts and views of life.

Will take a day off tomorrow.

Edited March 19, 2014 by lostinisaan

[lostinisaan]

Sorry to hear about your friend's illness Lostinisaan. As you probably know, liver disease is very common in Isaan as a result of a combination of factors, we don't need to go into here. In fact, Isaan has the highest rate of liver cancer in the world, which I suspect is what your friend may have. If he has returned home with the express wish not to go back into hospital and has come to terms with his terminal illness and knows the end is not far off, my sense would be to respect those wishes, no matter how hard it might seem to you. No doubt your wife and other people in the village recognise the symptoms, know the inevitable outcome, understand his wishes to die at home and find your well-meaning attempts to send him back to hospital, an extra hassle they'd rather not have to deal with. Hence, the reason she put the phone down on you.

It's tough I know, but every village sees the same cases almost week or month in and month out, and realise that there's not much that can be done, once the disease has taken hold. He would probably much rather die in peace at home, having seen others in a similar situation.

And as for the "have you eaten yet?" as a greeting, look on it as something like Brits talk about the weather - a cultural idiosyncracy - and something to play along with rather than get too concerned about. Unlike your friend, who I'm sure would appreciate your concern about his wellbeing by paying a visit by you to his home and asking everyone when they last ate.

Thanks for your nice post. Not just Brits are "talking about the weather", especially if they don't have much in common. My sister had received the highest Award from Germany, called the "Bundesverdiesntkreuz", her daughter, my niece is a good doctor now and we're on this guy's case.

She did that for 25 years, without asking anybody for money on voluntary basis and had to stop as too many young patients who had to pass away, made it impossible to continue. She'd never wore this Award, as it comes with a letter, how and where to wear it.

With all the respect to the relatives, as the guy's mother is 90 years old and watching her son dying under the same roof won't do her good.

It's never too late, until it's over. If Thai society would take a part of our culture(s) mix them with their culture, I'm sure the country would be a better one.It's not about taking him to the hospital only, it's about trying to give him the feeling that he's not alone in a world full of problems.

And if he goes I will carry his coffin, too.

Edited March 19, 2014 by lostinisaan

[brianP]

Lots of upbeat Thai music. Hopefully he will gain the will to live and enjoy life again, And to seek medical attention. A stop in a lifetime of drinking must be depressing. Shame it usually takes a crises to make life altering decisions to preserve oneself. Good luck, and keep trying.

[masuk]

It's a sad but educational discussion for me. I can understand a village person not wanting to go into a strange white building, full of people he doesn't know.

How will he get on for pain relief if he continues to stay at home? At least the hospital might be able to help him there, but passing away in your own village, surrounded by your own people is important.

Would the hospital allow his family to dispense his medications?

It's a tough decision, but like euthanasia, it's one the sufferer must make.

So nice of you to take care for your friend like this.

[jimky]

I live in Isaan also, and have three times sat watching a family member die in their home. The latest one was liver cancer. He went to the hospital but once diagnosed came home to die. As someone said in a previous post, it is very common.

[lostmebike]

IMHO after spending a lot off time with people from isaan, I found that they are like most Thais, a likable bunch if you take the time to get to know them..

but unfortunately, education is very poor in isaan and this reflects greatly (badly) in many things they do and in the way they live.

[lostinsurin]

This is like asking do the old people in Britain want to die at home or in hospital?

Yes the majority would prefer to die at home when the time comes, maybe your friend feels times up.

Edited March 19, 2014 by lostinsurin

[lostinsurin]

And the people in Britain that want to die at home?

Are they educated? yes

Does the decision have anything to do with education? no

Is it a question of culture? yes in my opinion.

Edited March 19, 2014 by lostinsurin

[nsimmons]

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[The Usual Suspect]

Isaan people can be really stubborn. My wife said she had a toothache. I asked how long and she said two week maybe. I asked

her when she last got a dental checkup, and she said, long time, don't need. I asked, you have a toothache for two weeks and

you don't need? She said, will go away...mai pen rai.

A couple days later her face is swollen up like a squirrel with a mouth full of nuts.

I finally had enough of her stuff and said, NO ARGUMENTS! you are going to the dental clinic NOW! Long story short, she had

an abscess so serious that she needed to have a tooth pulled and is on massive amounts of anti-biotics. So much for

stubbornness. She pulled this once before with a bladder infection, and if I hadn't discovered her pissing blood and dragged

her ass to the clinic, who knows what might have happened.

My suggestion to you, "lostinisaan" would be damned the torpedoes, full speed ahead!!! What's the worst that could happen?

Maybe they'll be pissed at you for trying to save your friend's life? I could live with that. How about you?

Edited March 19, 2014 by The Usual Suspect

[NanLaew]

I live in Isaan also, and have three times sat watching a family member die in their home. The latest one was liver cancer. He went to the hospital but once diagnosed came home to die. As someone said in a previous post, it is very common.

Spot on observation. It is a cultural thing and very common.

In the past two years, my parents have passed away after becoming victims of age and the NHS (UK) policy of assisting those that they can't make any more money from to slip off the books. My father in particular was angry that he wasn't allowed to go home to die and we felt his anger at his passing. Last month it was my mothers turn and she too despaired of leaving the world in the company of (mostly) strangers in a strange bed.

In my living will, it states that in the event of age, incapacitating or mortal illness, wherever possible, I will be allowed to pass away at a place of my chosing with friends and family.

The OP's concern for his friend is truly heart warming but he must respect that if his friend has chosen this way, then he should be a good friend, respect that choice and be there for them and not try and force any changes that they don't agree with. Yes, it may be part ignorance but respecting people's rights, be they friends or otherwise is more important IMHO.

[SanukJoeII]

To the title: It has nothing to do with education and norm.

Every person has the right to die in the environment he/she wishes. Never ever disrespect that!

I had a similar story with an old and handicapped neighbour back in Europe. A fine man who helped me when something on the farm or with animals. He was an alcoholic, every Thursday night a van delivered a carton of jenever (gin) for one week... He was dirty, smelled, but was good to his animals (chicken, geese, sheep, and birds in a cage in his room). One day he stumbled and broke his leg, got into hospital. Of course because of his condition (smelly alcoholic) there was a lot of talking and suddenly there were some relatives agreeing that he would be best in a home for the elderly. When I heard that I thought: "He will die soon". I visited him in the home for elderly and it was the worst experience in my life: he cried and asked me to take him home. to his animals, his house, his land. I felt so bad not to be able to do that for him, in our overorganized western world we take care of people, who don't want to be taken care of. The man died after 6 weeks in the home, he could have had a couple or more than that years in his own environment....happy!

It was for me the decision to retire to Thailand, away from western culture of putting people away in "homes", not allowing them to have their beloved pets with them, their beloved outlook when opening the door, they were put into "waiting rooms for the nearly dead". In Thailand people take care of the elderly, at home in the village. I prefer that above any well-meant "care".

Heavy drinkers here know what their outlook is, one day they will be confronted with a non-functioning liver and that will be the end. They know it, they accept it, so please let them die where they want, do not force them into hospitals.

OP, sorry if it's not what you were asking for, but a well-meant try to get you understand the acceptance of nearing death in rural Isan people,

[lostmebike]

I understand there is a cultural thing to be considered here but if there is a possibility that staying in hospital might add years to the man in questions life, yet he still refuses proper medical help, one would question his thought process.

I'm reading that people 'back home' would rather die at home and I agree with this wholeheartedly if the writing really was on the wall but would people back home ignore the fact that being in hospital might just save their life? I doubt it. Sure there would be the odd 2 or 3 (hundred?thousand??) but I again would question why they think like that.

Is it cultural? Oh yes. Is it related to education? You betcha.

[lostinisaan]

And the people in Britain that want to die at home?

Are they educated? yes

Does the decision have anything to do with education? no

Is it a question of culture? yes in my opinion.

Education to a certain extend enables people to make the right decisions. So now I'm using my education to help a Thai guy who deserves it. Still better than watching him dying, or?

[lostinisaan]

I understand there is a cultural thing to be considered here but if there is a possibility that staying in hospital might add years to the man in questions life, yet he still refuses proper medical help, one would question his thought process.

I'm reading that people 'back home' would rather die at home and I agree with this wholeheartedly if the writing really was on the wall but would people back home ignore the fact that being in hospital might just save their life? I doubt it. Sure there would be the odd 2 or 3 (hundred?thousand??) but I again would question why they think like that.

Is it cultural? Oh yes. Is it related to education? You betcha.

Once familiar how the system works, many people don't won't to be a burden for the family, as somebody has to stay at the hospital almost 24/7.. His thought process can't be clear considering that he had to quit drinking and having serious health issues.

That's the time when others, like friends of him step in and take over. Don't mind staying at the hospital in shifts. A proper education would be helpful to use the internet what problem he's got, how to continue and not just chatting and upgrading the FB page. Agreed?

Would a Thai know where to search? I doubt it.

[lostinsurin]

And the people in Britain that want to die at home?

Are they educated? yes

Does the decision have anything to do with education? no

Is it a question of culture? yes in my opinion.

Education to a certain extend enables people to make the right decisions. So now I'm using my education to help a Thai guy who deserves it. Still better than watching him dying, or?

No I'm not saying you should not help the guy.

I'm saying that his choice is more about his culture rather than his education.

Also I have known 2 farangs in the last year that have refused hospitalization and gone to their Thai home to die, very quickly.

So are they uneducated?

Edited March 19, 2014 by lostinsurin

[lostinsurin]

I understand there is a cultural thing to be considered here but if there is a possibility that staying in hospital might add years to the man in questions life, yet he still refuses proper medical help, one would question his thought process.

I'm reading that people 'back home' would rather die at home and I agree with this wholeheartedly if the writing really was on the wall but would people back home ignore the fact that being in hospital might just save their life? I doubt it. Sure there would be the odd 2 or 3 (hundred?thousand??) but I again would question why they think like that.

Is it cultural? Oh yes. Is it related to education? You betcha.

As with the people back home the Thai people would in my opinion stay in hospital if they were told they would recover

or greatly extend their life expectancy, so lets assume that it doesn't take a lot of education to understand when the doc say "your dying"

Now if you contradict me any more it will cost you a cup of tea.

Edited March 19, 2014 by lostinsurin

[penwithcris]

In the UK there is a third option for the terminally ill and those are the wonderful Hospice organisations that are paid for by voluntary contributions and charity shops

They work in tandem with families and the established Health Service to mentally prepare individuals for their impending demise and, where they can, to minimise physical pain and suffering

It is highly unlikely that such organisations will ever spring up in Thailand because there is a general lack of altruism in communities. Even family members seem to be abandoned as a lost cause. I know that money is in short supply in parts of Isaan but friendship and moral support cost nothing

I often wonder how my in-laws would respond if I was to become terminally ill? It is difficult to prise a glass of water from them now, even if I arrive at 'my family home' after hours of travel from Bangkok to visit them

I have learned to stop off to be fed and watered before I arrive

[lostinisaan]

And the people in Britain that want to die at home?

Are they educated? yes

Does the decision have anything to do with education? no

Is it a question of culture? yes in my opinion.

Education to a certain extend enables people to make the right decisions. So now I'm using my education to help a Thai guy who deserves it. Still better than watching him dying, or?

No I'm not saying you should not help the guy.

I'm saying that his choice is more about his culture rather than his education.

Also I have known 2 farangs in the last year that have refused hospitalization and gone to their Thai home to die, very quickly.

So are they uneducated?

Sorry, but how should I know if they were educated, or not? Just considering how many foreigners who are teaching shows that not all are well educated.

Do you really think being from another country alone makes somebody educated?

[lostinisaan]

I understand there is a cultural thing to be considered here but if there is a possibility that staying in hospital might add years to the man in questions life, yet he still refuses proper medical help, one would question his thought process.

I'm reading that people 'back home' would rather die at home and I agree with this wholeheartedly if the writing really was on the wall but would people back home ignore the fact that being in hospital might just save their life? I doubt it. Sure there would be the odd 2 or 3 (hundred?thousand??) but I again would question why they think like that.

Is it cultural? Oh yes. Is it related to education? You betcha.

As with the people back home the Thai people would in my opinion stay in hospital if they were told they would recover

or greatly extend their life expectancy, so lets assume that it doesn't take a lot of education to understand when the doc say "your dying"

Now if you contradict me any more it will cost you a cup of tea.

And I'll send you lostmebike and we get lost in Isaan.

[maximillian]

Lostinisaan, I am sure you are a very good person, a great friend and helper.

But if it was me, you wanted to force your help on, I"d really tell you to <deleted> off.

If I made the most important decision of my life, to die peacefully at my home,

I wouldn't want anybody in the world to try to change my mind.

Is that clear ?

And it is not an education thing at all.

[thailandbeachisland]

Go to hospital for what ? Can you accept that people decide to die ? Anyway he will die even if he goes to Disneylands Esaan hospitals, or maybe you will pay him a private one ?

So ridiculous to help one when thousands are dying.

[lostinisaan]

Lostinisaan, I am sure you are a very good person, a great friend and helper.

But if it was me, you wanted to force your help on, I"d really tell you to <deleted> off.

If I made the most important decision of my life, to die peacefully at my home,

I wouldn't want anybody in the world to try to change my mind.

Is that clear ?

And it is not an education thing at all.

I'm not forcing anybody into anything. As we don't know each other, it doesn't really matter to me if you wish to die a lonely and long death, or if there might be a way to live.

But that guy is my friend and deserves that I spend some of my free time for him. He can even stay at our house in Sisaket and I'll make sure that people will look after him.

If it's not an educational thing, what is it then? Hope is the last that dies.

[bina]

I think u are wrong. Much much better to die quickly and at home. We haf msny kibbutz members with cancers who recided to die st home snd refused care because they couldnt face the thought of after working outside their whole life to be locked in a hospital is like treating them like animals. Idont treat my pet s like that. It is their right to refuse treatment and not your right to be selfish about wanting to help. If they were to ask for help nuther story altogether. U want to help to feel good about yourself. Would u help someine who needs help but u dont like him?

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