Holiday house build part 1....well and pump.

[cheeryble]

Actually were not made of money, this is a piece of land we bought for my wife to be near her sister and family when I drop off the twig but it's so lovely....a little hilltop with great views....that we want to get it up and running as soon as poss. As CM is getting busier we might add to the first dwelling and make it our main place in future when she finishes work.

Wife and I just came up to CR to further plan about preparing to build this "holiday chalet" (ie bricks and mortar but moderately lightweight).

Arrived yesterday at 4 and by 6.30 we'd already clarified stuff with neighbour to be, and thought about the optimum order to do things to try to get something up as fast as possible. We decided to get footings on to hard dirt and think about levelling/terracing later.

1. Even though we haven't decided anything apart from it'll be modest size, likely one good room to start plus bathroom and balconies etc, we can decide dimensions of layout of first building (it'll probably be the first of a small group going up for now)

2. Set footings and vertical and horizontal members which will support the house, to take any design above.

3. Details of house and roof etc can be worked out in coming weeks.

4. Also plan for planting any trees for beauty and plants to strengthen up and guard cliff edge (yes it has a cliff) so they can go in early rather than late.

5. We talked about elec and water. We spoke with bro in law who's says we'd best dig a well, nam papa unsatisfactory (and not to our house anyway).. Their house 400m away gets clean water direct from the well they say, no filtering. Why not a bore I ask? Rocks, says he. OK a well says I.

So missus says let's at least get that started with the well while we're here. Why not thinks I?

So bro in law says ten metres should be enough. The land is a rai with a small flat hilltop and slope down to a little above rice field level. So I said we dig well at bottom and pump up right? He nods and says 90cm concrete rings should do it.

I think it's the sort of thing that could be ordered and done probably OK, but personally I have no experience of wells and pumps.

Anything to ensure or watch out for?

We wil have to pump up the depth of the well then up the hill ohh say 50 feet I'll try to make that more accurate tonight.

Thanks for any and all help!

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[beachproperty]

Cheeryble.....Great to hear and sounds fantastic....good luck...

BUT ...didn't you post on the SAME subject before

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/696062-pumping-water-up-hillcostmethod/

Were the answers not satisfying enough? Just curious.....no offense meant

[cheeryble]

I did indeed beach lover, and got great replies Crossy stood out.....perhaps I should have restarted the same thread but I'm thinking of doing a "holiday house" series to look at all aspects dare say it'd be useful for everyone.

The other thing is we've now been told the piped supply is poor and as I said bro in law recommends a well because stones may prohibit a bore.

In fact we're going to try to let the bore guy see it and decide for himself because it's smaller and much cheaper both not bad things.

Comparison between bores and wells from those experienced?

Fr the upper parts of the system of course the previous answers are wonderful.

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[cheeryble]

Whilst we're here in case Crossy looks by Crossy you mentioned before that the present uncle supply of 10sqmm aluminium is not great.

We can go from behind and put in proper posts along the road it's about 400m so guess the cost about 100kbaht.

That's a bit dear for a holiday cottage and a good chance the supply behind.....where here is a bit of development action.... may come nearer itself or be shareable in a year or two, so we're thinking of making do with coming across the family land about 400m the other way on bamboo posts for temporary.

Crossy, what size and type of cable would you recommend for a very modest holiday cottage which may grow into a never-huge dwelling?

Bearing in mind this cable may be transferable to concrete pylons behind eventually.

Ballpark cost of that cable (I believe it comes in 500m rolls?

Thanks!

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Edited April 1, 2014 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

Afterthought

1. I guess the cable simply has two conductors and earth is done locally on the site?

2. We know 10sqmm is available and I believe I've seen 16sqmm and perhaps 25sqmm available here in long rolls.

Sound right?

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Edited April 2, 2014 by cheeryble

[Crossy]

Good that you're getting going.

I would price up 35mm² aluminium cable if you can get it, that should be adequate to get a sensible supply (15/45 meter) over your current long run. You may need to splice a short length of 16mm² copper onto the end so it will fit in the meter terminals.

If you can't get 35mm² then 25mm² would be OK if you don't mind the lights flickering a bit when a big load comes on (A/C, water heater).

Aluminium cable does have some issues, but it is much cheaper than copper and less likely to get stolen.

[cheeryble]

Thanks Crossy I shall go with 25sqmm I think.

Tell me something, I got some prices here today for 16 and 25 ally.

I notice it is a single conductor.....or bundle of about 8 or 10 aluminium strands in fact, with no neutral return.

I have never seen like this at home.

Can it be that this is just the positive and a local earth is used as the neutral?

Just want to be sure I don't order soemthing ridiculous!

Thanks Crossy

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[cheeryble]

ANother question

We went to a really great shop that had multitudinous pumps pressure, sprayers......everything.

The lady of the establishment was very helpful and recommended....I wrote it down....a choice of two Italian pumps called Pedrollo.

I shall endeavour to estimate the rise of hill and well position a bit better tonight so we know exactly what the requirements are, and I took iPad photos of the specs for the two pumps so can check them out.

My question is

The lady was talking about e deepest depth for the well for this pump was 7metres.

On reflection I'm guessing she means that while the head is many tens of metres to pump up the hill, the maximum suck from the top of the well is 7metres?

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[Crossy]

You run two wires, one for live the other neutral, standard for overhead supply all over the world (Single Wire, Earth Return is used for remote supplies to keep the cost down, but not at 220V, more like 22kV).

So for a 400m run you need 800m of cable, make sure you can identify which is which at both ends so you don't reverse polarity at your distribution board.

Do get the biggest the budget will support, 400m of 25mm² aluminium will drop 10% at 20A.

Schoolboy physics limits the depth from which a pump can 'suck' to about 7-8m (deeper needs a jet or submersible pump), once sucked it can push much higher although above about 30m you'll be looking at a multi-stage pump.

[cheeryble]

Thanks Crossy I shall check the price diff from 25 to 35 sqmm.

As for the well our land drops about 10m from the top to the bottom whcih is still about 10m above rice field level. (Uncle's land is below ours and goes down another 5m making it's lowest point about 5m above rice field)

This would mean if we dug the well at the bottom of my land and expected water a bit below rice field level there would be too much distance to suck.

However

1. We may dig a well to share with uncle (who has now a temporary house on his lower bit and has almost moved off our top bit.)

2. They seem to be saying if you dig a well on the hill you hit water after about 3metres.

So looks like we'll hope for the best and share with uncle he already has a small pump he uses with nam papa (which nam papa they think is not good) and we can buy a pump.

We saw two yesterday

So must decide on the amount of suck and blow needed.

Suppose we hit water from uncle land 5m down, we need to go up hill that 5m plus 15m and that would get us to the hill top which then we need to raise a bit more to a tank level.

So sounds like a minimum blow of about 18metres add a bit for safety better look at the chart below.

BTW is a pump from the house tank the best option with the water level just a metre or so above house rap level so if we have a power or pump failure we still get a slow gravity feed?

Ps the photos have strangely come out scattered there are four but looks ok when one highlights them all four appear

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Edited April 3, 2014 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

So I guess it'll be something like your previous (kindly drawn) Option 1 Crossy

...except we may only use the nam papa as an alternative rather than the main source, and will need a pump for the well/nam papa at the bottom.

Presumably no need for a holding tank at the bottom?

ps suddenly becoming interested in pump security.

Maybe best to have it safely mounted on a rebar filled lump of concrete.

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Edited April 3, 2014 by cheeryble

[Crossy]

You shouldn't pump directly from the village supply, if someone is filling their duck pond you could suck the pond water into the water supply. If using village water, and it won't get up the hill on its own, you need a buffer at the bottom. You can use the same pump to pump from your shallow well or the buffer tank using a couple of ball valves to switch supply.

It is important to note that the max-head marked on a pump is the TOTAL head, i.e. from the bottom of the suction to the top of the discharge plus any head loss in the piping (equivalent to electrical resistance).

[dutchrdam]

So for a 400m run you need 800m of cable, make sure you can identify which is which at both ends so you don't reverse polarity at your distribution board.

By my knowledge it make no difference. Here in Thailand we use 220 V AC 50Hz with 2 leads. AC stands for alternating current witch means the electric charge change in the rate of the frequency.

If you work with 380 V AC 50Hz, and you use 3 leads then is numbering handy else the star/triangle set up for heavy engines will not follow the required sequence by start up.

[cheeryble]

Crossy:

Thanks for that.....I must tell Uncle Serm not to suck the public water supply backwards we don't want any dicks or fish clogging up the pipe work.

BTW would you normally fuse at the source before the cable run? If so presumably a little under the max current rating of the cable but a little over the expected max load of the house?

Dutchrdam:

Err....thanks

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Edited April 3, 2014 by cheeryble

[Crossy]

Thanks for the smile Cheeryble, hopefully and dicks won't still have the ducks attached

@Dutchrdam

It's important to remember that Thailand used 3-phase 4-wire, i.e. a neutral is always provided at the supply. Phase-Neutral is 220V (which is what we use in domestic), phase-phase is 380V (big industrial motors, neutral not used).

[cheeryble]

(Particularly aimed at Crossy )

We now have a well.

It filled up with water about 5-6 foot under ground level and the boys couldn't keep the water back so have left it quite shallow and say can go deeper if required.

Today's question is about the electricity cable.

We have decided for now to run a supply along the private track then up the hill from the elec post which supplies the sister's house.

This post is (a touch under) 100m from the mainish road on the private track.

We then have (a touch under) 400m to go further all on private land.

(there may be a better supply coming BEHIND or WEST of the hill in future it is about the same distance 400m to the first good supply post but it would have to run on public road which may mean much more expensive pyloning…so IF it comes nearer anyway in future we could then hook on and presumably use the same cable we buy for what we're planning now.)

So yesterday we learned the sister supply is just 5 amps (can it be that small?)

It is believed that as we don't have a house certificate (or house) we can't yet get a meter of our own.

So I suggested we use one official meter, then have one or two private meters for sister and us to divide the bill.

I then looked at the cable coming down the post to the meter.

It is 25sqmm Alu which of course will allow much more than 5 amps.

So normally I was thinking of running 35sqmm Alu for the 400m run (sister husband says one can use the small concrete posts they're about 3m high). When sister move their house in a few years to next door our house-to-be land maybe they can share.

But now I am considering that probably the 100m cable run from the road is all 25sqmm, so not optimal to run from that at the post to 35sqmm.

I thought it would be more sensible to run 35sqmm all the way.

However, then we need the electrical company to make the connection which means they have to OK it all….whcih could bring problems as they are only supplying one meter right now.

So sister's husband says he will go to the elec company to ask for an upgrade in supply (I think it goes from 5 up to 15 amps).

I said just hold on while we think it through.

Crossy and dear TVers, can you help me think it through?

Edited April 17, 2014 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

Still hoping for help on the last question :-)

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[IMHO]

You can apply for your own meter now (without having a house first) but it will be a 'construction meter' which is charged at full commercial rates (7.x Baht/unit).

If that doesn't sound like what you want to do, I would suggest piggybacking off the SIL's supply... but I'd connect in downstream from the meter itself, so as not to raise any concerns with your PEA (and no need to involve them).

The SIL's meter will be a 5/15 - which can support 15A max (3300 watts) - this is the smallest domestic meter available...

As for running 35mm2 - most PEA's will only connect this to a 30/100 meter - they'll connect 25mm2 to 5/15 and 15/45 meters in most cases though. YMMV on this - each seems to have their own rules.

Edited April 23, 2014 by IMHO

[Crossy]

Sorry for the tardy response, been a bit busy earning the odd crust.

You could hit a snag asking for a meter upgrade as the PEA may want to inspect the house installation and will want to see an RCD and ground spike, so you may need to upgrade SiLs installation (but it will make it safer). They will certainly expect to see 16mm² cable before they connect a 15/45 meter.

I would use 35mm² Al cable, you can always splice a 16mm² copper pigtail to the end to keep PEA happy, once it's out of the meter they don't care what you connect (and their engineers do understand volt-drop).

Have you priced a supply to your land from PEA, you're going to have to pay for it eventually anyway, could be easier to bite the bullet now?

[cheeryble]

Hey IMHO and Crossy

thanks for the replies, both highly informative.

Can i quote, either of you I'm sure are more than capable of answering?

The SIL's meter will be a 5/15 - which can support 15A max (3300 watts)

So on the track in the map at the end of the unbroken red (existing) cable supply is the elec post with the meter on it.

Then it crosses towards SIL's house and they have one more small concrete private post just to get it to the house.

1. When you say the meters supports 15a (and given that the cable would support much more) does that still mean the most we can draw for BOTH our houses is 15a?

2. BIL has spoken of uprating their supply. Would this likely mean a higher amp-rated meter?

3. Could an uprated supply entail what Crossy speaks of, uprating SIL's fusebox etc? Likely cost?

4. As for running cable FROM the existing meter (quietly) would it be a bit much to fit a sub-meter or meters to divide the cost ON THE SAME POST as the existing meter?

You think they likely to balk at that? (It's just that using the smaller post near SIL house means going across the road and further, then back again to form a straight line of posts on the lane.

5. If I use 35sqmm and pigtail on, I'll have about 100m left over which maybe in a couple years can use to make a complete 35sqmm run all the way from main road including possibly to SIL new residence next to our little plot. If I cut now this will later entail a connector. Are these connectors durable weatherproof and no loss?

I understand some of the answer may be just best opinion but if you could have a go it'll help me get my head round it (have actually done a fair bit of electrical work including pyrotenax wiring in UK, but short on practical local knowledge and not done these sort of runs.)

Crossy haven't priced a PEA supply from them but guessing about 10-12,000bt per run of 40metres sound right?

If we do it ourselves with the smaller posts I think it would be half?….and they would be less obstructive to the lane and the rice field south side of it and also the view is rather superb from SIL house bigger posts won't help.

(Not usually mean with spending when necessary but this is not really a money investment I expect us never to sell this place and get investment back…...just use it and of course right now it's unregistered so whilst almost certainly safe surrounded by longtime family land we don't want to spend any more than necessary )

Thanks!

(and Crossy hope yr eye problem turns out not a big deal)

Edited April 24, 2014 by cheeryble

[IMHO]

1. No. It means the maximum total current you can pull through the meter is 15 Amps.

2. Uprating would mean a new meter, and probably new cables between the meter and the consumer unit as well.

3. Whether or not the consumer unit, main breaker or any other wiring needs to be upgraded is an unknown.

4. If you fit *anything* to the PEA's post, you are asking for trouble.

5. Crimp connectors are very good if fitted correctly, and won't have any issues if well insulated with copious amounts of tape.

[cheeryble]

Thanks for the great detailed reply IMHO

1. No. It means the maximum total current you can pull through the meter is 15 Amps..

Ok it is now clear we must at least get SIL to upgrade their supply or we'll be getting half of €%¥# all.

2. Uprating would mean a new meter, and probably new cables between the meter and the consumer unit as well.

3. Whether or not the consumer unit, main breaker or any other wiring needs to be upgraded is an unknown.

Whatever is needed we would have to accept (or get a completely new supply, still an option)

4. If you fit *anything* to the PEA's post, you are asking for trouble.

Reckon you're right......though I wonder if we could just run two cables out of the meter instead if one.....one to SIL (existing) and one back up the post and straight down the lane to the first new elec post with our new meter tucked behind out of view.

Actually it'd be smarter to out a new meter at the sisters house in privacy and measure THEIR elec instead of OURS and subtract from total at PEA meter.

5. Crimp connectors are very good if fitted correctly, and won't have any issues if well insulated with copious amounts of tape.

Uh huh......i had been thinking it would be the type tightened by two nuts.......and I was actually wondering of there are connectors with a little case one can fill with resin for a very permanent seal. (This is what they do under the streets of London when they tee a new supply off two of the three phases I've seen it done, though that's a big case size of a large Chang.)

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Edited April 24, 2014 by cheeryble

[Crossy]

Crimps are excellent and low cost, even the tools are not overly expensive, mine which does up to 35mm² was less than 3000 Baht. If you use crimps use amalgamating tape as insulation (not normal PVC electrical tape which will fall off), this stuff http://www.cablejoints.co.uk/upload/3M_2155_Tape.pdf yes, it's available in Thailand.

[cheeryble]

Thanks for those xlnt answers IMHO and Crossy, reckon I have enough to go on and will check first about upgrading SIL supply and take it from the PEA requirements for sister house told us then, and figure if we want to go back up the post from the present meter and straight on or do a cable diversion via SIL house.

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[cheeryble]

I'm back guys.

OK we're going up to CR again soon and missus phoned SIL about upgrading her electrical supply so we can piggy back.

SIL recommends that instead we just use the uncle's supply (who has moved down after selling the site to live at the bottom section of it.

It is 10sqmm Aluminium cable and comes to just under our land, so it is a 400m run.)

She says use that for now then when we have a house certificate we can get our own meter. (Correct?)

Oh oh thinks I

I am thinking of a metal roof structure and it will need welding, and of course we'll need the normal things like pump for the well, tools etc.

So would a 400m run of 10sqmm cable give us enough for welding etc on a temporary site supply like that?

My alternative suggestion is:

We ask for a temporary meter mentioned earlier in the thread, the 7bt/unit doesn't matter as it's only for site electricity. From the meter we run 35sqmm all the way to the site 400m.

When we;re done I am told we can get the house certificate in just a day as the pooyay bahn is onside (can that be true?) so is it then possible as above to order a permanent meter and pay the regular rate.

Possible?

Thanks in advance

[IMHO]

I'm back guys.

OK we're going up to CR again soon and missus phoned SIL about upgrading her electrical supply so we can piggy back.

SIL recommends that instead we just use the uncle's supply (who has moved down after selling the site to live at the bottom section of it.

It is 10sqmm Aluminium cable and comes to just under our land, so it is a 400m run.)

She says use that for now then when we have a house certificate we can get our own meter. (Correct?)

Oh oh thinks I

I am thinking of a metal roof structure and it will need welding, and of course we'll need the normal things like pump for the well, tools etc.

So would a 400m run of 10sqmm cable give us enough for welding etc on a temporary site supply like that?

My alternative suggestion is:

We ask for a temporary meter mentioned earlier in the thread, the 7bt/unit doesn't matter as it's only for site electricity. From the meter we run 35sqmm all the way to the site 400m.

When we;re done I am told we can get the house certificate in just a day as the pooyay bahn is onside (can that be true?) so is it then possible as above to order a permanent meter and pay the regular rate.

Possible?

Thanks in advance

You don't need a Tabien Ban in order to get a domestic meter installed - all that takes is a visit by the PEA to verify there's a finished, actual house on the land. They will normally take a few photos of the house for their records as well. You will need a Tabien Ban to get pay TV or internet hooked up though

If you have access to an existing meter and a bunch of cable already, I can't see why you'd go an replace it all right now, during the construction phase. Assuming an inverter welder, it should work just fine - I've measured them working on a supply that dropped to 130V under load

Edited April 29, 2014 by IMHO

[cheeryble]

Thanks IMHO

Do you know....

If we ask for a temporary meter or later a permanent one will they be fussy about the height of the electricity posts and specs like that if it's going across private land?

In other words, I'd like to make do with the smaller cheaper posts....but can I?

Thanks!

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[IMHO]

Thanks IMHO

Do you know....

If we ask for a temporary meter or later a permanent one will they be fussy about the height of the electricity posts and specs like that if it's going across private land?

In other words, I'd like to make do with the smaller cheaper posts....but can I?

Thanks!

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They will only install a construction meter on one of their posts, and generally are not that fussy about what the cable run looks like beyond the meter while building.

As for whether or not they will inspect the lines from the post once you order a domestic meter, that depends on the local PEA themselves. So long as your lines are of the same general standard in the local area (which could mean supported by tiny eucalyptus wood sticks, or just looped around tree branches in some areas), you should be fine.

Have a look around at what other properties nearby have done that got passed

Edited April 29, 2014 by IMHO

[cheeryble]

Thanks IMHO

In fact SIL supply meter is on a moderately high concrete post, and I guess there must be a couple more from the main road.

Then from that post it crosses the private lane to a much smaller concrete post only about 3 or 4m above ground.

These are quite cheap I believe perhaps 2000bt and this is what I was thinking of using for the 400m run.

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