Working In Thailand On Non-thailand Based Business

[Thaiquila]

Fact: A lot of people are in Thailand on visa types where they have told Thai immigration they agree to NOT WORK in Thailand, yet they are indeed working, in these kinds of ways:

-- trading their brokerage accounts, sometimes acting as active full time traders

-- working as employees or contractors for foreign firms as offsite workers, where the pay is deposited into non-Thai bank accounts

-- running commercialized websites with non-Thailand servers, non-Thailand customers, and non-Thailand banking arrangements (employing no Thais), where the businesses are legally structured outside Thailand

-- working for non-Thai companies on a freelance basis doing online work such as writing and editing, being paid again into non-Thai bank acounts

So, does Thai immigration REALLY CARE about these kinds of activities?????

Is this kind of work really seen as "working in Thailand" by Thai immigration? Do they actively seek to investigate and arrest foreigners engaged in these non-Thailand economic activities that are hapening within the borders? If someone tipped off immigration about such activity, would they even open an investigation? Can anyone cite actual stories where people were arrested or had their visas cancelled doing such activities?

Now, I am not talking about people working directly in the Thai economy without proper visa and permit, or even people doing direct export sales via ebay (which after all does interact with the Thai economy). It seems to me this whole area is a kind of ethical/legal grey area, clearly the intent of the immigration law is to make sure foreigners don't take work from Thais, or if they open businesses that they employ Thais, but with the internet and globalization, these kinds of physically in Thailand but not of Thailand opportunities are more and more common and possible.

So what is really happening?

Edited June 6, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Indo-Siam]

Here is how to think about this:

1) The Thai government does NOT make it a habit to go round randomly kicking in doors of private residences, to collect evidence of illegal work activity by foreigners. So - if you work on-line, in your home, your chance of being caught out is about the same as your chance of being hit by lightning - in your home.

2) The scenario outlined above goes out the window for certain nefarious bactivities - such as kiddie porn, trading in arms or fissionable materials, running streaming porn webcams from here, and - in Thailand - even running on-line gambling operations. They actually DO devote sophisticated international resources to hunting down these activities.

3) In order to get caght out in a Scenario 1 situation, someone has to make a fairly persistent and specific complaint against you. So - just don't do anything that would cause someone to make a complaint against you.

One thing many people do not realize: If you succesfully operate here for five or ten years without documented employment - and you THEN obtain or create a legitimate job in Thailand - and you apply for work permit to which you are now entitled - the Work Permt office WILL see that you have been in Thailnd for ten years (or whatever) without legal employment, and they are highly likely to question this status. On the application, you actually have to account for your employment status for the most recent three or four jobs you held. Your only option at this point is to blatantly lie to a Thai government official in an official inquiry situation. You NEVER want to have to directy lie to a Thai official in the performance of an offical duty involving your status. You can evade, forget, or plead ignorance, or non-comprehension - but lying on an official application is risky - if caught, the penalties are draconian - arrest, imprisonment, deportation, and permanent blacklisting.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Thaiquila]

Thanks Indo for a very informed response to this question. Like you said, if someone is running some kind of outrageously illegal operation like webcams using Thais, they would expect to be busted. The part about later going legit was quite interesting.

[Dakhar]

Nice post

IndoSiam

[~G~]

So, does Thai immigration REALLY CARE about these kinds of activities?????

I don't know if Thai immigration cares (probably not), but another body that might care is the Revenue Department, that should get a cut of whatever you're making. As Steve mentioned, problems are unlikely to happen unless someone tips them off.

[girlx]

If you succesfully operate here for five or ten years without documented employment - and you THEN obtain or create a legitimate job in Thailand - and you apply for work permit to which you are now entitled - the Work Permt office WILL see that you have been in Thailnd for ten years (or whatever) without legal employment, and they are highly likely to question this status. On the application, you actually have to account for your employment status for the most recent three or four jobs you held. Your only option at this point is to blatantly lie to a Thai government official in an official inquiry situation.

why would you have to lie? couldn't you just say for instance that you were a contractor for a US company that allowed you to work from wherever you were? if the contract was based in the US and you were paid into a US account, then Thailand should have no problem with it!

[~G~]

why would you have to lie? couldn't you just say for instance that you were a contractor for a US company that allowed you to work from wherever you were? if the contract was based in the US and you were paid into a US account, then Thailand should have no problem with it!

No problem apart from it being against the Thai law.

[julesdick]

you still need a work permit to carry out any work for any company anywhere. even volunteer work.

[Simmo]

* Don't ask.

* Don't tell.

* Stay under the radar.

* Don't ever get on the bad side of a Thai person that knows about it.

I'd venture to say there are far more farangs working here without a work permit than with one.

[girlx]

No problem apart from it being against the Thai law.

you still need a work permit to carry out any work for any company anywhere. even volunteer work.

i have never seen proof anywhere that as long as your contract is in another country and you are paid in another country it is any of thailand's business at all whatsoever. if you are doing work for a thailand company, then they have jurisdiction. if you find specific info stating otherwise, please post it.

[GuestHouse]

One piece of advice.

If you do find such work, and many do, keep quiet about it.

Going back to what Indo says

3) In order to get caght out in a Scenario 1 situation, someone has to make a fairly persistent and specific complaint against you. So - just don't do anything that would cause someone to make a complaint against you.

The most likely source of 'Persistent and Specific Complaints' is A.N.Other expat with too much time on their hands and a bitter resentment of someone getting something they themselves have not the skills or imagination to go after.

[Axel]

If you stay more than 180 days in Thailand during any calendar year you become a "tax-resident" and your income is taxable.

Income you bring into Thailand is taxable even if earned and paid abroad.

Might be difficult to proof for the tax-office, if you are under investigation might as well be difficult for you to proof that you live off your savings and have no income during the tax years.

[Phil Conners]

What if Mr. Big Boss is on holiday in Phuket and get a call from his New York office while here, having to answer a business related question. Would he be working? Where is the line?

[tjo o tjim]

I spoke to a lawyer recently on the matter to get a better sense of peace.

One of his comments was that if you can lay a legitimate claim to be a tourist (you have an address in your home country that bills and payments get sent to), and you aren't engaging in commerce within Thailand (aside of course from engaging the services of a fine Thail lawyer!), then Thailand will consider you a tourist.

Income earned and taxes paid in a tax-treaty country would not be subject to any kind of double-taxation. Money brought into thailand for the explicit purposes of paying your living expenses would likewise not be subject to Thai taxes.

You get into grey areas (at least from my understanding of his comments) when you do things like rent an office, or get any revenue from a Thai entity (this could be a Thai national in your home country!). You are crossing the line for sure if you employ a Thai person to work for you, or perform services for a thai company.

As Indo-Siam points out, you need to have a good, honest, plausible explanation for how you were a tourist for five or ten years if you do ever get a real job. Living off savings is perfectly acceptable. There is nothing wrong with you actively managing YOUR savings, or engaging in some kind of "hobby" while you are on vacation!

YMMV. It was well worth the legal fees to explain my exact situation and concerns and get proper legal advice tailored to my needs. Nothing in writing of course... but hey, TIT.

[Tywais]

If you stay more than 180 days in Thailand during any calendar year you become a "tax-resident" and your income is taxable.

There are several instances where that is not true if there is a dual-taxation treaty in place. Example for the US-Thai is pension income, income from teaching (2-years limit), and others. Each country will have their own set of arrangements and should check into the dual-taxation treaty for your specific country.

Dual-Taxation US

[RAZZELL]

it is any of thailand's business at all whatsoever.

Really??? Obviously you've got no regard for national boundaries...

[Axel]

If you stay more than 180 days in Thailand during any calendar year you become a "tax-resident" and your income is taxable.

There are several instances where that is not true if there is a dual-taxation treaty in place. Example for the US-Thai is pension income, income from teaching (2-years limit), and others. Each country will have their own set of arrangements and should check into the dual-taxation treaty for your specific country.

Dual-Taxation US

Being a 'tax-resident' does not mean you actually pay taxes. Of course, you can use exemptions, rulings, claiming dual-taxation treaties etc. However, staying less than 180 days means no tax-obligation.

[kc_phil]

You are crossing the line for sure if you employ a Thai person to work for you, or perform services for a thai company.

What about a domestic servant/cleaning lady? or does the 'don't piss them off andeverything will be ok' rule apply?

[Morty]

Fact: A lot of people are in Thailand on visa types where they have told Thai immigration they agree to NOT WORK in Thailand, yet they are indeed working, in these kinds of ways:

-- trading their brokerage accounts, sometimes acting as active full time traders

-- working as employees or contractors for foreign firms as offsite workers, where the pay is deposited into non-Thai bank accounts

-- running commercialized websites with non-Thailand servers, non-Thailand customers, and non-Thailand banking arrangements (employing no Thais), where the businesses are legally structured outside Thailand

-- working for non-Thai companies on a freelance basis doing online work such as writing and editing, being paid again into non-Thai bank acounts

So, does Thai immigration REALLY CARE about these kinds of activities?????

Is this kind of work really seen as "working in Thailand" by Thai immigration? Do they actively seek to investigate and arrest foreigners engaged in these non-Thailand economic activities that are hapening within the borders? If someone tipped off immigration about such activity, would they even open an investigation? Can anyone cite actual stories where people were arrested or had their visas cancelled doing such activities?

Now, I am not talking about people working directly in the Thai economy without proper visa and permit, or even people doing direct export sales via ebay (which after all does interact with the Thai economy). It seems to me this whole area is a kind of ethical/legal grey area, clearly the intent of the immigration law is to make sure foreigners don't take work from Thais, or if they open businesses that they employ Thais, but with the internet and globalization, these kinds of physically in Thailand but not of Thailand opportunities are more and more common and possible.

So what is really happening?

I think it's perfectly legal to do your work while in LOS, as long as it isn't a LOS business

check this link

[JimmyGreaves]

Dual-Taxation US

Poxy link is full of download crap!

[Tywais]

Dual-Taxation US

Poxy link is full of download crap!

Might want to enable your popup blocker. Common with Tripod to have lots of popups. Didn't see any when I went there other then saying popups were blocked.

[Mali_in_CM]

Indo-Siam,

good stuff