UK pensioner expat or remain UK resident

[BritManToo]

If you are retired you should consider the implications for your NHS entitlement. No small matter.

Not sure I get your point. NHS entitlement is based on where you reside, not on where you pay tax, although is to some extent based on where you reside. If you return to the UK then you are UK resident and entitled to NHS treatment.

I suppose unless you are chronically ill it wouldn't matter, if you were chronically then you would stay in the UK.

You have to reside in the uk for 6 months to get free nhs, so not quite true what u said

Bernie, old chap, you are seriously out of date, if you can't be bothered to read more recent information I have already posted on this thread, why bother to participate at all? It really doesn't help anyone.

[chiang mai]

We've talked about this subject many times over recent years hence there's a load of good info. available for those that want to search this site, including the draft green paper and the final white paper dealing with NHS access. As a part of those threads I posted a letter that I wrote to the NHS on the subject of access and also their reply which came by way of Ministers questions. The question I put to them in that letter was, I am a UK expat who is planning to return to the UK to live and I'd like to understand the extent to which I will be covered by the NHS from day one.

The reply was expectedly circuitous and almost didn't answer the question, until the end of page two where the author wrote, and I paraphrase, the decision to allow treatment without charge is at the discretion of each Health Trust and the evidence that each patient presents to substantiate his/her case. In a worst case scenario you may remain ineligible for free treatment for up to six months. Supporting evidence that may aid your case would include proof that you have disposed of your property overseas and that you have relocated your assets onshore.

[BritManToo]

We've talked about this subject many times over recent years hence there's a load of good info. available for those that want to search this site, including the draft green paper and the final white paper dealing with NHS access. As a part of those threads I posted a letter that I wrote to the NHS on the subject of access and also their reply which came by way of Ministers questions. The question I put to them in that letter was, I am a UK expat who is planning to return to the UK to live and I'd like to understand the extent to which I will be covered by the NHS from day one.

The reply was expectedly circuitous and almost didn't answer the question, until the end of page two where the author wrote, and I paraphrase, the decision to allow treatment without charge is at the discretion of each Health Trust and the evidence that each patient presents to substantiate his/her case. In a worst case scenario you may remain ineligible for free treatment for up to six months. Supporting evidence that may aid your case would include proof that you have disposed of your property overseas and that you have relocated your assets onshore.

As far as I know there has never been any mechanism in the UK that enabled any NHS trust to trace where a UK citizen has previously lived. Never volunteer any information to your government or its' employees must be everyones number one rule in this life.

Edited April 4, 2014 by BritManToo

[i claudius]

my doctor in the Uk knows where i live ,but doesn;t care ,still treats me and gives me my medication.

[chiang mai]

We've talked about this subject many times over recent years hence there's a load of good info. available for those that want to search this site, including the draft green paper and the final white paper dealing with NHS access. As a part of those threads I posted a letter that I wrote to the NHS on the subject of access and also their reply which came by way of Ministers questions. The question I put to them in that letter was, I am a UK expat who is planning to return to the UK to live and I'd like to understand the extent to which I will be covered by the NHS from day one.

The reply was expectedly circuitous and almost didn't answer the question, until the end of page two where the author wrote, and I paraphrase, the decision to allow treatment without charge is at the discretion of each Health Trust and the evidence that each patient presents to substantiate his/her case. In a worst case scenario you may remain ineligible for free treatment for up to six months. Supporting evidence that may aid your case would include proof that you have disposed of your property overseas and that you have relocated your assets onshore.

As far as I know there has never been any mechanism in the UK that enabled any NHS trust to trace where a UK citizen has previously lived. Never volunteer any information to your government or its' employees must be everyones number one rule in this life.

Tracing where people have been is not rocket science, as the NHS is now starting to realize, a passport is good starting place, community tax register (or whatever it is), utility bills, et al!

But the tone of this thread seems to have moved slightly, inevitably, towards avoidance rather than the facts of the matter. If everyone were honest about their circumstances there would be no need to not disclose information.

[BritManToo]

We've talked about this subject many times over recent years hence there's a load of good info. available for those that want to search this site, including the draft green paper and the final white paper dealing with NHS access. As a part of those threads I posted a letter that I wrote to the NHS on the subject of access and also their reply which came by way of Ministers questions. The question I put to them in that letter was, I am a UK expat who is planning to return to the UK to live and I'd like to understand the extent to which I will be covered by the NHS from day one.

The reply was expectedly circuitous and almost didn't answer the question, until the end of page two where the author wrote, and I paraphrase, the decision to allow treatment without charge is at the discretion of each Health Trust and the evidence that each patient presents to substantiate his/her case. In a worst case scenario you may remain ineligible for free treatment for up to six months. Supporting evidence that may aid your case would include proof that you have disposed of your property overseas and that you have relocated your assets onshore.

As far as I know there has never been any mechanism in the UK that enabled any NHS trust to trace where a UK citizen has previously lived. Never volunteer any information to your government or its' employees must be everyones number one rule in this life.

Tracing where people have been is not rocket science, as the NHS is now starting to realize, a passport is good starting place, community tax register (or whatever it is), utility bills, et al!

But the tone of this thread seems to have moved slightly, inevitably, towards avoidance rather than the facts of the matter. If everyone were honest about their circumstances there would be no need to not disclose information.

Not everyone owns a passport, I would not admit to having one.

Community tax register, I opted for the private list, don't think an NHS trust can view that easily, but many people don't register after the poll tax fiasco, and it isn't a major crime to be missed off, especially if you live in a house with two other adult occupants.

Utility bills are all in my parents name, as it's their house, but I do have bank statements, pension statements, etc all sent there.

It really isn't hard to have the appearance of UK residency, no matter where you live in the world.

I see no advantage for a UK citizen to being registered anywhere else in the world, unless you are a multi-millionaire.

I always view most advice to move UK pensions offshore to originate from criminals trying to grab pensions in a country where they are less protected. I have not met 1 single UK citizen who made money from doing it. Unfortunately I have met 3 crooks in CM who made millions from pensioners who were silly enough to try.

Edited April 4, 2014 by BritManToo

[chiang mai]

The subject is what the rules are currently, not how to avoid them, if it's going to be that then I'm out.

[HullyGully]

A couple of points

As a UK Non Resident, you still pay IHT, only Non Domicle escapre IHT

I would never use a QROPS, the yearly charges are a rip off

All Brit have the Tax free allowance of GBP10,000 / GBP10500, its best to take the stae pension / and the use your private pension to top up your monthly cash requirements, bearing in mind you'll be taxed at 20%

With a SIPP any money left in the SIpp after your death could go to your wife, and if she keeps it invest, she would pay taxes on thje income

[danpat]

The rule is ,if you are living abroad in receipt of a UK state pension ,then you are eligible to use the NHS.

[Greenhill]

I believe that, strictly speaking, if one is a 'permanent' resident of Thailand, one has to inform the Thai tax authorities of all your worldwide income because in theory you should be paying tax in the country where you are resident!! The UK and Thailand have a DTA (Double Taxation Agreement) in effect, so maybe it would be worth paying Income Tax here in Thailand than in the UK?! Anyone know what the Thai income tax rates are??

[chiang mai]

I believe that, strictly speaking, if one is a 'permanent' resident of Thailand, one has to inform the Thai tax authorities of all your worldwide income because in theory you should be paying tax in the country where you are resident!! The UK and Thailand have a DTA (Double Taxation Agreement) in effect, so maybe it would be worth paying Income Tax here in Thailand than in the UK?! Anyone know what the Thai income tax rates are??

The only people who are permanently resident here are those who hold Thai passports, retirees on O-A visa's have to extend their visa every year.

Income tax rates are here: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

[phutoie2]

In the Bangkok paper we are not allowed to link to there is today an article entitled The UK budget and the ex pat. The personal tax allowance gets a mention and the fact that it may be withdrawn for ex -pats. Scaremongering , not sure, but worrying even if they are even considering it. Would affect someone like myself on civil service pension. Have to keep a bivouac in both camps. UK & Thailand.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/10719777/Expat-tax-break-threatened-spelling-bad-news-for-pensioners.html

Found a link in the DT.

Edited April 6, 2014 by phutoie2

[chiang mai]

Yes, that's very troubling.

[steve73]

Some really useful discussion here on the situation for UK NHS.

I was under the impression that a retiree on a non-imm O visa with annual extensions based on retirement was not a Thai tax resident, but was only liable for tax on income generated within or remitted to Thailand.

As such, any savings brought into T/L was not taxed, although interest earned on it within T/L would be. Is this correct?

A couple of other points..

One further benefit of being non UK tax resident that I've not seen mentioned here is no longer a requirement to pay CGT, (provided a certain period of NR has been attained - 5 full years).

One disadvantage of being UK NR, that I've not seen discussed here is that you are unable to continue to add to an ISA (so you cannot, for example "transfer" shares held outwith an ISA into it - and I'm using "transfer" in a very loose sense here), although obviously you can still administer assets held within it. With the ISA allowance being increased, there may now be more benefit in remaining UK Resident for tax purposes.

FWIW, when I left the UK permanantly in 2008 (initially for work in Vietnam for one year, and since for "retirement" in Thailand) the IR continued to send me SA TR's but when I wrote to them and advised them I was no longer resident, they told me not to bother filing the SA's, but simply to advise them when (if) I return to live in the UK permanantly in the future. I have no UK property or income other than minor bank interest.

[topt]

I was under the impression that a retiree on a non-imm O visa with annual extensions based on retirement was not a Thai tax resident, but was only liable for tax on income generated within or remitted to Thailand.

As such, any savings brought into T/L was not taxed, although interest earned on it within T/L would be. Is this correct?

Theoretically as long as it is not remitted into Thailand in the year in which it is earned. However as you could imagine the chances of the Thai taxman checking, or being able to verify it was income and not past savings/income, when it is brought in is probably non existent at this point in time.

[chiang mai]

In the Bangkok paper we are not allowed to link to there is today an article entitled The UK budget and the ex pat. The personal tax allowance gets a mention and the fact that it may be withdrawn for ex -pats. Scaremongering , not sure, but worrying even if they are even considering it. Would affect someone like myself on civil service pension. Have to keep a bivouac in both camps. UK & Thailand.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/10719777/Expat-tax-break-threatened-spelling-bad-news-for-pensioners.html

Found a link in the DT.

I've just read the link again in both papers and the Telegraph version makes quiet scary reading, The Bangkok Post version makes it appear that it's very doubtful that anything will happen whilst the Telegraph makes it appear almost defacto.

So if expat pensions are to be taxed as well as not uprated for cost of living in certain countries, that would appear to be a pretty serious attack on expats! Very worrying indeed.

[alfieconn]

One further benefit of being non UK tax resident that I've not seen mentioned here is no longer a requirement to pay CGT, (provided a certain period of NR has been attained - 5 full years).

That's the case at the moment (see below)

1. introduce capital gains tax on future gains made by non-residents disposing of UK residential property from April 2015 – a consultation on how best to introduce the new capital gains tax charge will be published in early 2014

[steve73]

One further benefit of being non UK tax resident that I've not seen mentioned here is no longer a requirement to pay CGT, (provided a certain period of NR has been attained - 5 full years).

That's the case at the moment (see below)

1. introduce capital gains tax on future gains made by non-residents disposing of UK residential property from April 2015 – a consultation on how best to introduce the new capital gains tax charge will be published in early 2014

thx for update.... I just hope they try don't apply CGT to CG's made on UK stocks/trading.

[SGD]

Don't loose sight of the fact that older age and poor health can creep up on you, once you've gone to the trouble of becoming an expat it's sometimes quite hard to become a resident again and as the rules change over time, re attaining NHS eligibility will become even more difficult. My vote would be, unless you have substantial assets, go the 6 months in and 6 months out route.

As far as I know, a UK national, upon entering the UK and declaring an intention to remain, is still automatically resident from the moment of arrival. Johnny Foreigner might have some hoops to jump through.

[meatboy]

In the Bangkok paper we are not allowed to link to there is today an article entitled The UK budget and the ex pat. The personal tax allowance gets a mention and the fact that it may be withdrawn for ex -pats. Scaremongering , not sure, but worrying even if they are even considering it. Would affect someone like myself on civil service pension. Have to keep a bivouac in both camps. UK & Thailand.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/10719777/Expat-tax-break-threatened-spelling-bad-news-for-pensioners.html

Found a link in the DT.

I've just read the link again in both papers and the Telegraph version makes quiet scary reading, The Bangkok Post version makes it appear that it's very doubtful that anything will happen whilst the Telegraph makes it appear almost defacto.

So if expat pensions are to be taxed as well as not uprated for cost of living in certain countries, that would appear to be a pretty serious attack on expats! Very worrying indeed.

I have just seen this and honestly think this would never happen,frozen pensions,no personel allowance,i had better not tell the mrs.this as she worked her <deleted> off for 18yrs.in the uk. she has to wait for gov.pension till she's 67 and then to be taxed,that is why if the proposals that may come into force next yr.regarding taking your occupational pension pot as a lump sum,they could give her half of what she paid into the state pot aswell.she paid the maximum in both of them.

fk.me where is guy fawks when you need him.

[SheungWan]

In the Bangkok paper we are not allowed to link to there is today an article entitled The UK budget and the ex pat. The personal tax allowance gets a mention and the fact that it may be withdrawn for ex -pats. Scaremongering , not sure, but worrying even if they are even considering it. Would affect someone like myself on civil service pension. Have to keep a bivouac in both camps. UK & Thailand.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/10719777/Expat-tax-break-threatened-spelling-bad-news-for-pensioners.html

Found a link in the DT.

I've just read the link again in both papers and the Telegraph version makes quiet scary reading, The Bangkok Post version makes it appear that it's very doubtful that anything will happen whilst the Telegraph makes it appear almost defacto.

So if expat pensions are to be taxed as well as not uprated for cost of living in certain countries, that would appear to be a pretty serious attack on expats! Very worrying indeed.

I have just seen this and honestly think this would never happen,frozen pensions,no personel allowance,i had better not tell the mrs.this as she worked her <deleted> off for 18yrs.in the uk. she has to wait for gov.pension till she's 67 and then to be taxed,that is why if the proposals that may come into force next yr.regarding taking your occupational pension pot as a lump sum,they could give her half of what she paid into the state pot aswell.she paid the maximum in both of them.

fk.me where is guy fawks when you need him.

I fail to see why someone who has declared themselves non-resident for tax purposes thinks they should be entitled to the same tax privileges (personal allowance) as someone who is resident for tax purposes.

[meatboy]

sheungwan just for your information if you have pension or any income in the uk.resident or not you are liable for tax.

I get a tax code every yr.and the wife has to fill in a tax return on a property she owns.even when its empty she has to pay council tax.so there.

[uptheos]

If you are retired you should consider the implications for your NHS entitlement. No small matter.

Not sure I get your point. NHS entitlement is based on where you reside, not on where you pay tax, although is to some extent based on where you reside. If you return to the UK then you are UK resident and entitled to NHS treatment.

I suppose unless you are chronically ill it wouldn't matter, if you were chronically then you would stay in the UK.

You have to reside in the uk for 6 months to get free nhs, so not quite true what u said

Are you a UK state pensioner spending more than 6 months a year living outside the United Kingdom?

If you have a UK state retirement pension and have lived in the UK (or been employed as a UK crown servant) for ten continuous years at some point in the past, you will be exempt from charges for treatment the need for which arises during your visit to the UK. This means treatment needed where the diagnosis of a condition is made when first symptoms arise during a visit to the UK. It also applies where, in the opinion of a doctor or dentist employed by an NHS hospital, treatment is needed quickly to prevent a pre-existing condition increasing in severity, eg dialysis. It does not include routine monitoring of an existing condition such as diabetes.

This exemption extends to your spouse, civil partner and children (under the age of 16, or 19 if in further education) as long as they are lawfully present with you for the duration of your stay.

Returning to the UK after a period of time living away?

If you return to the UK to take up permanent residence here again, then you will be entitled to receive free NHS hospital treatment from the day you return. So will your spouse, civil partner and children (under the age of 16, or 19 if in further education) if they are also living with you permanently in the UK again.

Do I have to pay for emergency treatment if I have an accident?

Regardless of residential status or nationality, emergency treatment given at Primary Care Practices (a GP) or in Accident and Emergency departments or a Walk-in Centre providing services similar to those of a hospital Accident and Emergency department is free of charge.

Edited April 9, 2014 by uptheos

[thepool]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

If you are retired you should consider the implications for your NHS entitlement. No small matter.

Not sure I get your point. NHS entitlement is based on where you reside, not on where you pay tax, although is to some extent based on where you reside. If you return to the UK then you are UK resident and entitled to NHS treatment.

I suppose unless you are chronically ill it wouldn't matter, if you were chronically then you would stay in the UK.

You have to reside in the uk for 6 months to get free nhs, so not quite true what u said

Are you a UK state pensioner spending more than 6 months a year living outside the United Kingdom?

If you have a UK state retirement pension and have lived in the UK (or been employed as a UK crown servant) for ten continuous years at some point in the past, you will be exempt from charges for treatment the need for which arises during your visit to the UK. This means treatment needed where the diagnosis of a condition is made when first symptoms arise during a visit to the UK. It also applies where, in the opinion of a doctor or dentist employed by an NHS hospital, treatment is needed quickly to prevent a pre-existing condition increasing in severity, eg dialysis. It does not include routine monitoring of an existing condition such as diabetes.

This exemption extends to your spouse, civil partner and children (under the age of 16, or 19 if in further education) as long as they are lawfully present with you for the duration of your stay.

Returning to the UK after a period of time living away?

If you return to the UK to take up permanent residence here again, then you will be entitled to receive free NHS hospital treatment from the day you return. So will your spouse, civil partner and children (under the age of 16, or 19 if in further education) if they are also living with you permanently in the UK again.

Do I have to pay for emergency treatment if I have an accident?

Regardless of residential status or nationality, emergency treatment given at Primary Care Practices (a GP) or in Accident and Emergency departments or a Walk-in Centre providing services similar to those of a hospital Accident and Emergency department is free of charge.

Do you have a authoritative link to where that information can be found ?

Edited April 9, 2014 by thepool

[uptheos]

Do you have a authoritative link to where that information can be found ?

Yes, sorry about that....parts were taken from here

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Entitlementsandcharges/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_128863

You might find this interesting too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/expathealth/10303008/Brits-abroad-could-have-rights-to-free-NHS-treatment-restored.html

I think their are a lot of pensioners who have 'done their money' and feel they can't go home. Also, there seems to be a lot of posters determined to scare the life out of them, should they return.

I say you can go home if you want and if you're without funds you will get all the benefits required......maybe you won't live in luxury, but there's an awful lot of pensioners living here holed up in some dingy bedsit with Chang or Sang Som as the only solace and living on 20 Baht Guay Tiaw.......without any medical safety net!

Edited April 9, 2014 by uptheos

[thepool]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Do you have a authoritative link to where that information can be found ?

Yes, sorry about that....parts were taken from here

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Entitlementsandcharges/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_128863

You might find this interesting too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/expathealth/10303008/Brits-abroad-could-have-rights-to-free-NHS-treatment-restored.html

I think their are a lot of pensioners who have 'done their money' and feel they can't go home. Also, there seems to be a lot of posters determined to scare the life out of them, should they return.

I say you can go home if you want and if you're without funds you will get all the benefits required......maybe you won't live in luxury, but there's an awful lot of pensioners living here holed up in some dingy bedsit with Chang or Sang Som as the only solace and living on 20 Baht Guay Tiaw.......without any medical safety net!

Thank you

[uptheos]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Do you have a authoritative link to where that information can be found ?

Yes, sorry about that....parts were taken from here

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Entitlementsandcharges/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_128863

You might find this interesting too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/expathealth/10303008/Brits-abroad-could-have-rights-to-free-NHS-treatment-restored.html

I think their are a lot of pensioners who have 'done their money' and feel they can't go home. Also, there seems to be a lot of posters determined to scare the life out of them, should they return.

I say you can go home if you want and if you're without funds you will get all the benefits required......maybe you won't live in luxury, but there's an awful lot of pensioners living here holed up in some dingy bedsit with Chang or Sang Som as the only solace and living on 20 Baht Guay Tiaw.......without any medical safety net!

Thank you

No problem.

I honestly think these scatter brain schemes were deemed to be put into place in order to appease the PC brigade, who would probably scream 'unfair' if returning pensioners were given preference. In reality I think it's been demonstrated that pensioners can cut through the habitual residence nonsense quite easily.

Organisations are there to help and they carry a lot of clout. CAB, Shelter, Age UK all exist because people need help and as I've said before if a vulnerable pensioner feels they are being given a hard time by the LA, the press (particularly right wing) would just love to hear their story.

The trouble is people don't stand up for their rights, but every man and his dog will waltz in from places you never knew were on the map and have no qualms about going straight for the jugular as far as their rights to benefits are concerned!

[phutoie2]

sheungwan just for your information if you have pension or any income in the uk.resident or not you are liable for tax.

I get a tax code every yr.and the wife has to fill in a tax return on a property she owns.even when its empty she has to pay council tax.so there.

Clearly he does not know about UK government service pensions.

[SheungWan]

If you are retired you should consider the implications for your NHS entitlement. No small matter.

Not sure I get your point. NHS entitlement is based on where you reside, not on where you pay tax, although is to some extent based on where you reside. If you return to the UK then you are UK resident and entitled to NHS treatment.

I suppose unless you are chronically ill it wouldn't matter, if you were chronically then you would stay in the UK.

You have to reside in the uk for 6 months to get free nhs, so not quite true what u said

Are you a UK state pensioner spending more than 6 months a year living outside the United Kingdom?

If you have a UK state retirement pension and have lived in the UK (or been employed as a UK crown servant) for ten continuous years at some point in the past, you will be exempt from charges for treatment the need for which arises during your visit to the UK. This means treatment needed where the diagnosis of a condition is made when first symptoms arise during a visit to the UK. It also applies where, in the opinion of a doctor or dentist employed by an NHS hospital, treatment is needed quickly to prevent a pre-existing condition increasing in severity, eg dialysis. It does not include routine monitoring of an existing condition such as diabetes.

This exemption extends to your spouse, civil partner and children (under the age of 16, or 19 if in further education) as long as they are lawfully present with you for the duration of your stay.

Returning to the UK after a period of time living away?

If you return to the UK to take up permanent residence here again, then you will be entitled to receive free NHS hospital treatment from the day you return. So will your spouse, civil partner and children (under the age of 16, or 19 if in further education) if they are also living with you permanently in the UK again.

Do I have to pay for emergency treatment if I have an accident?

Regardless of residential status or nationality, emergency treatment given at Primary Care Practices (a GP) or in Accident and Emergency departments or a Walk-in Centre providing services similar to those of a hospital Accident and Emergency department is free of charge.

I note: exemption from charges does not include 'routine monitoring' and that evidence may be requested re 'returning to take up permanent residence'. Being non-resident for tax purposes hardly assists demonstration of that intention.