Putin tells Merkel Ukraine now 'on verge of civil war': Kremlin

[webfact]

Putin tells Merkel Ukraine now 'on verge of civil war': Kremlin

MOSCOW, Russia - Russian President Vladimir Putin warned German Chancellor Angela Merkel that Ukraine was now on the verge of civil war after the Kiev government sent in the army against separatists in the east of the country, the Kremlin said Wednesday.

"The Russian president remarked that the sharp escalation of the conflict has placed the country, in effect, on the verge of civil war," the Kremlin said in a statement on telephone talks between the two leaders.

But the leaders both "emphasised the importance" of the planned four-way talks on Ukraine on Thursday between top diplomats of Russia, the European Union, the United States and Ukraine.

"The hope was expressed that the meeting in Geneva can give a clear signal to return the situation to a peaceful framework," the statement said.

The Kremlin statememt described the actions of the Ukrainian army in eastern Ukraine as an "anti-constitutional course to use force against peaceful protest actions."

AFP


-- The Nation 2014-04-16

[EyesWideOpen]

Looks like Russia has a history of invading countries to " protect " its ethnic citizens... Pretty much exactlywhat Hitler did on the other side of Poland.......

http://www.enrs.eu/en/news/882-17-september-1939-the-soviet-invasion-of-poland

"The Soviet government used the German invasion of Poland as a pretext to violate the non-aggression treaty, announced the Polish state as non-existent and claimed that it entered Polish territory to defend Ukrainian and Belarusian people.

Edited April 16, 2014 by EyesWideOpen

[Guest]

Do we have some Russian members who could give a bit of light what Putin is thinking?

I suppose he wishes to be the next tsar of Russian empire and raise the country to the former glory.

Russia can easily take the whole Ukraine if it wishes, it can even eat few other smaller countries, before the west will react. At that time it might be difficult not to start full war.

[Asiantravel]

Do we have some Russian members who could give a bit of light what Putin is thinking?

I suppose he wishes to be the next tsar of Russian empire and raise the country to the former glory.

Russia can easily take the whole Ukraine if it wishes, it can even eat few other smaller countries, before the west will react. At that time it might be difficult not to start full war.

Maybe asking China to provide their assessment as to who is right and who is wrong in this matter would be far more revealing

[drand11]

China? Thats comical. Maybe ask eastern europe how Hitler justified the takeover/ invasion of eastern Europe is best. Putin is creating his own lie. I suppose when you control the TV screens, you can do so.

[Chicog]

Gotta love someone who stokes up an insurrection then accuses others of promoting a civil war.

What a ****ing joker.

[guap]

Actually it was the joker from the west that started it. Then had his lackeys give speeches about how these days you don't just attack countries for no reason. Coming from the warmonger in the whitehouse that has to be the ultimate hypocrisy.

[Pralaad]

Gotta love someone who stokes up an insurrection then accuses others of promoting a civil war.

What a ****ing joker.

It is Kiev who send in army with orders to kill protesters not Moscow

[DoctorHu]

Hmm let's see, so I guess that everyone commenting appears to be suffering from short attention span syndrome, forgot all about the millions I dollars of western money poured into Ukrains to help "protesters" out the elected president two weeks after Ukrain tells the EU to to F$&@ it's self and it's welcome to Euro-Eco slavery austerity in a country where most people are just hanging on. The western backed protesters, including real neo-nazis by the way, got the pres to resign and now the is an appointed temporary president who is giving away Ukrains asserts to pay back supposed debt to western banks through austerity measure, exactly what most Ukrrainians did not want, to join the ranks of hungry and poor and we ain"t got no job Italians, Greeks spaniards and so on....to make sure those international bankers don"t run out of Martinis and gold plates Mercedes ?! Why should investors have to pay for their failures when they can pass the dept to hapless masses of people? You forgot I guess that the elections are already being tampered witth. The average person husky woke io to find out how much they are going to get fleeced by this international banker proctological ex, no lune, at least the russians won"t let them starve. You go hungry a few weeks and see how much YOU would like to pay some one else's bills...really at least the mil trolls are getting paid to post such garbage on thv

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[hawker9000]

Much of the rest of the Ukraine is probably toast. It'll get very interesting when that's done and Putin turns his attention to the Baltic states, as they're NATO members ( as well as members of the EU I believe). Article 5 of the NATO charter pledges all members to consider a military attack on any member an armed attack on all... 'Don't know why so many simply can't grasp how dangerous this guy is.

[Scott]

Off-topic post deleted.

[darren84310]

Do we have some Russian members who could give a bit of light what Putin is thinking?

I suppose he wishes to be the next tsar of Russian empire and raise the country to the former glory.

Russia can easily take the whole Ukraine if it wishes, it can even eat few other smaller countries, before the west will react. At that time it might be difficult not to start full war.

What former glory was that?... or do you mean having about 90% of their citizens living below the poverty line?

[rickirs]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Gotta love someone who stokes up an insurrection then accuses others of promoting a civil war.

What a ****ing joker.

It is Kiev who send in army with orders to kill protesters not Moscow

Just a slight clarification. It was President Yanulovych who unilaterally ordered the protestors killed. He did not consult the bipartisan Parliament. Now Russia provides him santuary.

[Bpuumike]

Actually it was the joker from the west that started it. Then had his lackeys give speeches about how these days you don't just attack countries for no reason. Coming from the warmonger in the whitehouse that has to be the ultimate hypocrisy.

You are right there.

It was the US & NATO that engineered the protests and removed the governnment from Ukraine recently. Now it has backfired on them they are attempting sanctions and risking real conflagration.

What a bunch of hypocrites indeed.

[rickirs]

Flashback to 2013:

At the G20 Summit meeting Putin said that world opinion was firmly against US-led intervention in the Syrian civil war., adding “We are helping, we send arms.” Putin warned the US and its allies against using force against the Syrian government saying that without UN approval, it would be seen as aggression. ” He further gave warning that Russia would stand with Syria if America launches military strikes against the country. Putin characterized the rebels fighting the government as foreign militants.

Today 2014:

Putin is firmly on the side of militants against the Ukrainian Government in the beginning of a what he calles a civil war. He has gathered the Russian military on Ukraine's borders ready to assist Pro-Russian militants in any confrontation with Ukrainian military. He has vetoed any UN resolution that condemns Russia's military intimidation aimed at Ukraine and condemnation of its invasion of Crimea. He characterized the "rebels" fighting the government as Russians.

[Pralaad]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Gotta love someone who stokes up an insurrection then accuses others of promoting a civil war.

What a ****ing joker.

It is Kiev who send in army with orders to kill protesters not Moscow

Just a slight clarification. It was President Yanulovych who unilaterally ordered the protestors killed. He did not consult the bipartisan Parliament. Now Russia provides him santuary.

Just a clarification, its already been proven it was Kiev, the opposition who ordered the snipers, Magadanovtsy, Neo Nazi faction.

Same was already discussed by Estonian FM and Ashton and also put in report by German inspectors

Latest order came out 48 or so hours ago to use any force to disperse the protesters.

Yanukovich, did an address asking military and special forces not to follow the order and not to shoot unarmed civilians.

[Chicog]

Flashback to 2013:

At the G20 Summit meeting Putin said that world opinion was firmly against US-led intervention in the Syrian civil war., adding “We are helping, we send arms.” Putin warned the US and its allies against using force against the Syrian government saying that without UN approval, it would be seen as aggression. ” He further gave warning that Russia would stand with Syria if America launches military strikes against the country. Putin characterized the rebels fighting the government as foreign militants.

Today 2014:

Putin is firmly on the side of militants against the Ukrainian Government in the beginning of a what he calles a civil war. He has gathered the Russian military on Ukraine's borders ready to assist Pro-Russian militants in any confrontation with Ukrainian military. He has vetoed any UN resolution that condemns Russia's military intimidation aimed at Ukraine and condemnation of its invasion of Crimea. He characterized the "rebels" fighting the government as Russians.

And let's not forget he's opposed to the creation of Kosovo and thinks such territory should be returned to its previous sovereign state.

Again: He's a ****ing joker. And a very dangerous one at that.

[Pralaad]

Flashback to 2013:

At the G20 Summit meeting Putin said that world opinion was firmly against US-led intervention in the Syrian civil war., adding “We are helping, we send arms.” Putin warned the US and its allies against using force against the Syrian government saying that without UN approval, it would be seen as aggression. ” He further gave warning that Russia would stand with Syria if America launches military strikes against the country. Putin characterized the rebels fighting the government as foreign militants.

Today 2014:

Putin is firmly on the side of militants against the Ukrainian Government in the beginning of a what he calles a civil war. He has gathered the Russian military on Ukraine's borders ready to assist Pro-Russian militants in any confrontation with Ukrainian military. He has vetoed any UN resolution that condemns Russia's military intimidation aimed at Ukraine and condemnation of its invasion of Crimea. He characterized the "rebels" fighting the government as Russians.

And let's not forget he's opposed to the creation of Kosovo and thinks such territory should be returned to its previous sovereign state.

Again: He's a ****ing joker. And a very dangerous one at that.

How is he any different to any other PM or President? Its not like Obama's red lines have not been extended and extended and more extended due to lack of support or varies other reasons

Or EU, who promised the world to Ukraine, ONLY now seem to have changed their mind and would rather keep business ties with Russia than support sanctions.

German business have already voiced their opposition to all the sanctions, French have sent FM to patch up any misunderstandings with Russia and resume as per usual.

It is only Ukrainian Neo Nazi's who keep on blowing the horn. They now have refused to pay any gas bill and stated they would ONLY pay what they think its worth.

The only reason why EU is still in some dialogue with Ukraine is because gas runs through Ukraine and Ukraine does have a history of stealing from EU pipes.

[Pralaad]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Gotta love someone who stokes up an insurrection then accuses others of promoting a civil war.

What a ****ing joker.

It is Kiev who send in army with orders to kill protesters not Moscow

Just a slight clarification. It was President Yanulovych who unilaterally ordered the protestors killed. He did not consult the bipartisan Parliament. Now Russia provides him santuary.

Just a clarification, its already been proven it was Kiev, the opposition who ordered the snipers, Magadanovtsy, Neo Nazi faction.

Same was already discussed by Estonian FM and Ashton and also put in report by German inspectors

Latest order came out 48 or so hours ago to use any force to disperse the protesters.

Yanukovich, did an address asking military and special forces not to follow the order and not to shoot unarmed civilians.

Sorry, correction to my own post.

Its not magadanovtsy, but maidanovtsy,

[ABCer]

It is futile to seek opinion ('light') from Russian members here.

Putin is a very clever and shrewd politician. Not many Russians in Russia would be in the know as to 'what he wants' or 'what he'll do' next.

As to situation in Ukraine and future developments IMHO it was a great miscalculation by the West. They thought that it's possible to play games with Russia along the lines they play them in many other countries. Putin taught them a lesson.

Ukrainian politicians made huge mistakes:

- relying on distant West;

- ignoring a powerful, resolute and aggressive immediate neighbour;

- ignoring the rights of their own Russian population;

- hoping to be embraced by EU ( not in foreseeable future);

And the price is - lost Crimea - irrevocably.

Whether Putin wants to be next Tzar, Hitler or Stalin - nobody knows. Whether Putin wants restoration of Russia within borders of former USSR is immaterial - this is not going to happen. Caucasians are never coming back. Baltic states are never coming back. The Middle Eastern states are never coming back. They all know how comfortable is the Moscow bed. But all of the above 'independent states' do have to consider reality. They may go West economically. They may go West culturally (? huh?). But they must be careful trying to go West militarily. Or stepping over the rights of high %% of their own Russians.

Back to Ukrainians. Culturally they are closer to Russians than the rest of states. Historically they have been with Russians longer than the rest of states. Economically they are more dependant on Russians than the rest of states.

At the same time they have no history of democracy. They have no history of being independent. They have unfortunate history of being ruled by thieves who destroyed the economy. They have the history of anarchy and right wing policies fueled

by anti-Russian (anti-Moscow) sentiments. Mix all this well and you get exactly what they are having now - big mess. Good luck to them in sorting it out. But they must be very careful!

Edited April 16, 2014 by ABCer

[marcusd]

China? Thats comical. Maybe ask eastern europe how Hitler justified the takeover/ invasion of eastern Europe is best. Putin is creating his own lie. I suppose when you control the TV screens, you can do so.

i think he means if china sides with those opposed to Russia then Russia may have issues it doesn't want like the rest of the world against them

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted. The topic is about Putin, Ukraine and Merkel.

[Exsexyman]

Gotta love someone who stokes up an insurrection then accuses others of promoting a civil war.

What a ****ing joker.

The problem you have, and the problem the US / Nato have, is that the world and his wife have seen the video of Victoria Nuland speaking in December, openly stating that the US have "invested" $5 billion in promoting 'democracy' in Ukraine. In a country thousands of miles away, on another continent, in no way can Ukraine be construed as being in the US sphere of influence. Anyone with a brain knows that $5 billion is not invested without some return being expected. In her speech Nuland also openly boasted that herself and John McCain had been to Kiev on several occasions over recent weeks sharing platforms with self confessed extreme right groups. Nuland and McCain are effectively running Obama's foreign policy in Eastern Europe, how can this be? Nuland is about as Neocon as it is possible to be, she is a protege of Dick Cheney, and before that somebody called Strobe Talbot. Her speech in December was made standing in front of a large Chevron banner. And who is a very big cheese on the executive of Chevron? Step forward Strobe Talbot. The world and his wife have also heard the transcript of the leaked phone call between Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine, made in the weeks leading up to the putsch in which they are openly deciding who would be installed as Prime Minister. Their agreed choice was Yatsenyuk or "yats' as she affectionately calls him, a Western friendly banker. After the coup which violently overthrew a legal government who got the gig? Good old "yats". Given these facts it's a bit rich accusing Russia of stoking up insurrection! Within days of the coup the IMF were there like vultures, Ukraine's gold reserves were flown to New York for 'safe keeping'!

This has been a coup instigated, financed and supported by the US, for their own geopolitical ends. But it is backfiring disastrously for the US / EU, right now reports are coming in that the 'crack' Ukranian forces and their tanks sent by Kiev to quell the protesters in the East, who consist mainly of pensioners and coal miners, are refusing to obey orders to shoot and are defecting. The western media this morning of course were reporting that the tanks had been seized by ' armed pro Russian separatists'. Now the dust has cleared it has been confirmed that the Ukranian army tank commanders and their crews from the 25th paratroopers were blocked near the local market, local residents surrounded the column with a human chain, and asked the soldiers if they would like to surrender, they thought a little bit then agreed. Many of the soldiers put on St Georges ribbons, the traditional emblem used to commemorate the Soviet Unions fight against Nazism in WW2. Putin must be rolling on the floor in gales of laughter at the moment, just when he thought the Western gang of stooges in Kiev couldn't get any more incompetent, their puppet regime loses control of its own troops!

No matter how hard the US and NATO, (and some on here), scream that the Russians are invading, the ordinary Ukranian soldiers know that this unelected, Western appointed government in Kiev is not one they should obey. So when most of the Ukranian military turns against Kiev, will they also be seen as separatists and terrorists? Will Nato bomb them to protect the innocent civilians of East Ukraine, who are also protesting against the Kiev regime?

US have opened a can of worms by their destabilization of Ukraine, and events are taking on their own momentum. Another clueless foreign policy adventure from the current regime in the White House, why does this President never look at the likely consequences! This coming in as we speak, i realise i will get slated for linking Fox News, but RT would have been dismissed out of hand!

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2014/04/16/pro-russian-separatists-declare-new-republic-in-ukraine/

https://twitter.com/obk/status/456406345508335616/photo/1

[rgs2001uk]

^^^^^^,

Brilliant post, the voice of sanity and reason returns.

Does Ukraine have oil?

[Pralaad]

Gotta love someone who stokes up an insurrection then accuses others of promoting a civil war.

What a ****ing joker.

The problem you have, and the problem the US / Nato have, is that the world and his wife have seen the video of Victoria Nuland speaking in December, openly stating that the US have "invested" $5 billion in promoting 'democracy' in Ukraine. In a country thousands of miles away, on another continent, in no way can Ukraine be construed as being in the US sphere of influence. Anyone with a brain knows that $5 billion is not invested without some return being expected. In her speech Nuland also openly boasted that herself and John McCain had been to Kiev on several occasions over recent weeks sharing platforms with self confessed extreme right groups. Nuland and McCain are effectively running Obama's foreign policy in Eastern Europe, how can this be? Nuland is about as Neocon as it is possible to be, she is a protege of Dick Cheney, and before that somebody called Strobe Talbot. Her speech in December was made standing in front of a large Chevron banner. And who is a very big cheese on the executive of Chevron? Step forward Strobe Talbot. The world and his wife have also heard the transcript of the leaked phone call between Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine, made in the weeks leading up to the putsch in which they are openly deciding who would be installed as Prime Minister. Their agreed choice was Yatsenyuk or "yats' as she affectionately calls him, a Western friendly banker. After the coup which violently overthrew a legal government who got the gig? Good old "yats". Given these facts it's a bit rich accusing Russia of stoking up insurrection! Within days of the coup the IMF were there like vultures, Ukraine's gold reserves were flown to New York for 'safe keeping'!

This has been a coup instigated, financed and supported by the US, for their own geopolitical ends. But it is backfiring disastrously for the US / EU, right now reports are coming in that the 'crack' Ukranian forces and their tanks sent by Kiev to quell the protesters in the East, who consist mainly of pensioners and coal miners, are refusing to obey orders to shoot and are defecting. The western media this morning of course were reporting that the tanks had been seized by ' armed pro Russian separatists'. Now the dust has cleared it has been confirmed that the Ukranian army tank commanders and their crews from the 25th paratroopers were blocked near the local market, local residents surrounded the column with a human chain, and asked the soldiers if they would like to surrender, they thought a little bit then agreed. Many of the soldiers put on St Georges ribbons, the traditional emblem used to commemorate the Soviet Unions fight against Nazism in WW2. Putin must be rolling on the floor in gales of laughter at the moment, just when he thought the Western gang of stooges in Kiev couldn't get any more incompetent, their puppet regime loses control of its own troops!

No matter how hard the US and NATO, (and some on here), scream that the Russians are invading, the ordinary Ukranian soldiers know that this unelected, Western appointed government in Kiev is not one they should obey. So when most of the Ukranian military turns against Kiev, will they also be seen as separatists and terrorists? Will Nato bomb them to protect the innocent civilians of East Ukraine, who are also protesting against the Kiev regime?

US have opened a can of worms by their destabilization of Ukraine, and events are taking on their own momentum. Another clueless foreign policy adventure from the current regime in the White House, why does this President never look at the likely consequences! This coming in as we speak, i realise i will get slated for linking Fox News, but RT would have been dismissed out of hand!

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2014/04/16/pro-russian-separatists-declare-new-republic-in-ukraine/

https://twitter.com/obk/status/456406345508335616/photo/1

Very well said and factual.

Another facts to remember is that Russian economy is by far more superior to Ukraine.

Salary, pensions are 3 -5 times more, while taxes are less.(amount of Russians travelling even to Thailand in comparison to Ukrainians is evidence of that)

While West can promise aid, Russia does not even need to promise anything. Just the fact that when you are part of Russia you get paid 5 times more, but pay less taxes is enough of encouragement for the people.

Not to mention access to better medical, banking and education.

Naturally people, general population want to have a good life, instead of "promises" with no light in the end of the tunnel

PS. US and EU aid comes with conditions, among which there would have to be more cut backs, ie people would have to suffer even more.

So really no surprises for people not wanting to listen to Kiev and Ukrainian military has not been paid, so again no surprise they are not too keen on following orders and shooting their own parents or brothers

[Mojomor]

^^^^^^,

Brilliant post, the voice of sanity and reason returns.

Does Ukraine have oil?

Well, I don't know, but apparently the big new discovery of gas off Cyprus, will allow Europe to be self sufficient for several years ----- this allows Merkel etc to give the finger to Putin. Also the population of Eastern Ukraine is much less than 40% Russian, so Putin is playing a game.

[folium]

Flashback to 2013:

At the G20 Summit meeting Putin said that world opinion was firmly against US-led intervention in the Syrian civil war., adding “We are helping, we send arms.” Putin warned the US and its allies against using force against the Syrian government saying that without UN approval, it would be seen as aggression. ” He further gave warning that Russia would stand with Syria if America launches military strikes against the country. Putin characterized the rebels fighting the government as foreign militants.

Today 2014:

Putin is firmly on the side of militants against the Ukrainian Government in the beginning of a what he calles a civil war. He has gathered the Russian military on Ukraine's borders ready to assist Pro-Russian militants in any confrontation with Ukrainian military. He has vetoed any UN resolution that condemns Russia's military intimidation aimed at Ukraine and condemnation of its invasion of Crimea. He characterized the "rebels" fighting the government as Russians.

And let's not forget he's opposed to the creation of Kosovo and thinks such territory should be returned to its previous sovereign state.

Again: He's a ****ing joker. And a very dangerous one at that.

The only reason why EU is still in some dialogue with Ukraine is because gas runs through Ukraine and Ukraine does have a history of stealing from EU pipes.

Wrong.

The twin pipeline Nord Stream runs under the Baltic bypassing Ukraine delivering Russian gas straight to Germany (completed in 2011 and 2012) and capable of carrying almost 2 billion cubic feet of gas per annum. A third and fourth pipeline may be added.

[Pralaad]

Flashback to 2013:

At the G20 Summit meeting Putin said that world opinion was firmly against US-led intervention in the Syrian civil war., adding “We are helping, we send arms.” Putin warned the US and its allies against using force against the Syrian government saying that without UN approval, it would be seen as aggression. ” He further gave warning that Russia would stand with Syria if America launches military strikes against the country. Putin characterized the rebels fighting the government as foreign militants.

Today 2014:

Putin is firmly on the side of militants against the Ukrainian Government in the beginning of a what he calles a civil war. He has gathered the Russian military on Ukraine's borders ready to assist Pro-Russian militants in any confrontation with Ukrainian military. He has vetoed any UN resolution that condemns Russia's military intimidation aimed at Ukraine and condemnation of its invasion of Crimea. He characterized the "rebels" fighting the government as Russians.

And let's not forget he's opposed to the creation of Kosovo and thinks such territory should be returned to its previous sovereign state.

Again: He's a ****ing joker. And a very dangerous one at that.

The only reason why EU is still in some dialogue with Ukraine is because gas runs through Ukraine and Ukraine does have a history of stealing from EU pipes.

Wrong.

The twin pipeline Nord Stream runs under the Baltic bypassing Ukraine delivering Russian gas straight to Germany (completed in 2011 and 2012) and capable of carrying almost 2 billion cubic feet of gas per annum. A third and fourth pipeline may be added.

Which part is wrong? Ukraine stealing gas? or most lines running through Ukraine?

Germany is NOT the only country in EU, you do know that right!?

[hawker9000]

When you hear Putin defenders on threads like this, the takeaway ISN'T that anyone like that should be silenced. Instead, consider that valuable! It SHOULD instead be waking everybody up! If forums like this had existed in 1938 & 1939, you would have certainly heard Germans making the exact same claims about THEIR invasions, unions, occupations, & annexations. Germany ALSO had other western nations to blame for their actions (and with respect to the Versailles Treaty, and western industrial investment in Germany, there was even truth in it). (Even today some Japanese are claiming that it was the "white man" and his colonial exploitation of the asian peoples that gave rise to Japan as the savior just trying to free asia from the yoke of western imperialism.)

If anyone is waiting for Russians posting here with this mindset to "see the light", change their minds, listen to reason, or see where Putin's aggression is leading, don't hold your breath. If anyone finds reassurance in there being sympathy & even support for what Putin is doing coming from Americans, British, etc. themselves, there was plenty of that in the U.S. and Britain up until the outbreak of WWII as well (nazi marches, protests, rallies, etc.) - right up until December 7, 1941 in the U.S.!. If you want to avoid the global catastrophe that occurred back then, don't be waiting for some consensus like that to form. It ain't gonna' happen. If we want a replay of 1939 & 1940, all we have to do is pretty much what we're doing. Putin is making exactly the same bets (that other nations will dither & do nothing in order to avoid war at all costs), offering pretty muh the same pretext, and so far with the same early success, that Hitler made. Western leaders, particularly Obama, in their headlong retreat from foreign intervention & conflict and terminal economic extremis will fall for anything Putin says like a ton of bricks.

Edited April 18, 2014 by hawker9000

[Pralaad]

When you hear Putin defenders on threads like this, the takeaway ISN'T that anyone like that should be silenced. Instead, consider that valuable! It SHOULD instead be waking everybody up! If forums like this had existed in 1938 & 1939, you would have certainly heard Germans making the exact same claims about THEIR invasions, unions, occupations, & annexations. Germany ALSO had other western nations to blame for their actions (and with respect to the Versailles Treaty, and western industrial investment in Germany, there was even truth in it). (Even today some Japanese are claiming that it was the "white man" and his colonial exploitation of the asian peoples that gave rise to Japan as the savior just trying to free asia from the yoke of western imperialism.)

If anyone is waiting for Russians posting here with this mindset to "see the light", change their minds, listen to reason, or see where Putin's aggression is leading, don't hold your breath. If anyone finds reassurance in there being sympathy & even support for what Putin is doing coming from Americans, British, etc. themselves, there was plenty of that in the U.S. and Britain up until the outbreak of WWII as well (nazi marches, protests, rallies, etc.) - right up until December 7, 1941 in the U.S.!. If you want to avoid the global catastrophe that occurred back then, don't be waiting for some consensus like that to form. It ain't gonna' happen. If we want a replay of 1939 & 1940, all we have to do is pretty much what we're doing. Putin is making exactly the same bets (that other nations will dither & do nothing in order to avoid war at all costs), offering pretty muh the same pretext, and so far with the same early success, that Hitler made. Western leaders, particularly Obama, in their headlong retreat from foreign intervention & conflict and terminal economic extremis will fall for anything Putin says like a ton of bricks.

Another words, you believe whatever American propaganda machine spins is the truth and only truth?

Are you trying to say that Putin is trying to occupy Ukraine and cleanse it?

Following your logic,non Russian in Crimea should have been already packed up and sent to some camp, NO?

Do you hear any reports of any protests in Crimea or persecutions since the change over?