Buying (cheap) Condo in Chiang Mai

[Thighlander]

As far as visa crackdowns; they usually go after the backpacker bunch, who are misusing tourist visas.

Don't make me laugh, the biggest bunch of misusers are the "living hand to mouth" 50+ expats who can't keep 800k in the bank.

They're the ones the land border visa run crackdowns are aimed at.

Most backpackers have got daddy's credit card and more cash available than a sizeable chunk of the expat population.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/60539-how-would-you-have-liked-to-be-one-of-the-ranong-12/page-3

Backpackers can certainly be over 50, but I think these unfortunate 12, were not....

As far as the kids...yeah, they got daddy's credit card because daddy has been out of work for four years and doesn't have any cash, either. Half of Americans don't have 2000 usd on hand for an emergency, and per capita income is 9 times higher than Thailand.

[Chicog]

I'm not quite sure why an 8 year old thread about a turf war between Phuket Visa run companies is considered relevant to this discussion, especially as it doesn't go into too much detail about those apprehended.

Backpackers usually spend a longer time in NZ or Aus (or if going the other way, the UK or Europe), and the backpacking bit is travelling around Asia. I doubt too many backpackers spend more than 30 days in one place, and in my experience they hope into Laos, go onto Vietnam, maybe Cambodia and then come back into a different part of Thailand, leaving for perhaps Malaysia or India depending which way they are going.

if you're on a budget, you don't waste money buying visas you don't need.

Your expats on the other hand, once they've dug into their savings and have <800K left, are then reliant on pensions or perhaps investments coming in to do better than break even and fund the visa run.

There are probably also more than a few who are old enough to get a retirement visa (yes, yes, just go with it), but can't get the police clearance certificate from their home country.

You only have to go to Pattaya and look for the eat all you want cheapo buffets and balloon chasers; the backpackers are usually being trendy and eating cockroach-infested somtam in some backstreet shack to show how cool they are - the idiots. And they probably try and pay with Daddy's Debit Card.

[Thighlander]

but, if you read post #65, I stated that in the near future, the over 50s may have to actually prove their pensions with more than a wink a 1000 thb at the Consulate.

And Bruce....going to Cambodia for better infrastructure is truly a unique idea. Perhaps, Beijing for the air, or Russia for the smiles?

[mesquite]

but, if you read post #65, I stated that in the near future, the over 50s may have to actually prove their pensions with more than a wink a 1000 thb at the Consulate.

And Bruce....going to Cambodia for better infrastructure is truly a unique idea. Perhaps, Beijing for the air, or Russia for the smiles?

Why would anyone wink and also offer a 1000 THB bribe, especially when neither are necessary? I have never heard of anyone doing this.

When one gets the letter at the US consulate it is only necessary to have the form filled out and on it says that you swear that your income is at the level you state. Then you swear to that in front of the consular officer. They don't check. And they don't ask for bribes. Or winks.

Bribery and payments under the table may be common place, but not in the US or its embassies.

If anyone reading this has now gotten the idea it's OK to offer bribes at the US Consulate, for any reason whatsoever, DON'T DO IT!

Bribes to the US government are reserved for politicians and take the form of campaign contributions, gifts from lobbyists, etc. Then it's OK.

Edited April 24, 2014 by mesquite

[Thighlander]

the 1000 thb is the fee for the letter (unless it has gone up), the wink is because both parties know damn well that the person often doesn't make the 65000 per month. It has also been documented quite recently that being a big "fundraiser" for King Obama will get you an Ambassadorship or Consulate post, even if you've never been to that country, or speak the language.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/25/us-ambassadors-confidence-vote-amid-firestorm

http://www.allgov.com/news/appointments-and-resignations/obama-outdoes-previous-presidents-in-appointing-campaign-donors-to-ambassadorships-140303?news=852579

Edited April 24, 2014 by Thighlander

[mesquite]

the 1000 thb is the fee for the letter (unless it has gone up), the wink is because both parties know damn well that the person often doesn't make the 65000 per month. It has also been documented quite recently that being a big "fundraiser" for King Obama will get you an Ambassadorship or Consulate post, even if you've never been to that country, or speak the language.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/25/us-ambassadors-confidence-vote-amid-firestorm

http://www.allgov.com/news/appointments-and-resignations/obama-outdoes-previous-presidents-in-appointing-campaign-donors-to-ambassadorships-140303?news=852579

OK. The letter now is more like $50 US.

I'm not so sure both parties do know that the person doesn't make the 65000 THB per month, or, put another way, that that person is committing perjury.

But one party does know that "their team" can hang the other party's as* if he/she is committing perjury, and if they decide to do it. It's all up to them and the offending party has no say. Of course that never happens, until it does.

[Cow San Load]

know it all said:

There are probably also more than a few who are old enough to get a retirement visa (yes, yes, just go with it), but can't get the police clearance certificate from their home country.

since when do you need a police clearance for a retirement visa?

[Thighlander]

you do when you get the O-A in your own country.

[heybruce]

but, if you read post #65, I stated that in the near future, the over 50s may have to actually prove their pensions with more than a wink a 1000 thb at the Consulate.

And Bruce....going to Cambodia for better infrastructure is truly a unique idea. Perhaps, Beijing for the air, or Russia for the smiles?

I was speculating on the future. As anyone who spends time here knows the roads in the Nimmanhamin are frequently gridlocked, and I've been told by a Thai resident that the current water and electricity infrastructure is barely coping. I didn't ask about sewers, but if they are running out of capacity for stuff going in, there's no reason to think they did a better job planning for stuff going out. So, as I wrote, if a fraction of the buildings under construction are finished and a fraction of their units are occupied (I don't care if they're sold and sit empty) then it could push current infrastructure to the breaking point.

I did a quick look at Phomn Penh in March last year, and there is definitely a lot to be done. However compared to what I saw there in 2001 there are significant improvements. Besides, there's a certain lunacy to the country that has a strange appeal. So if the water stops running and the toilets stop flushing in Nimmanhamin, Cambodia might be worth another look.

[heybruce]

Most are sold before they are built...

That's what I hear, but Chiang Mai is full of condos that I assume belong to somebody, and yet they sit empty most or all of the time.

I don't know how many of these pre-sold units are bought by people who actually intend to use them, and how may are bought by people who think they can re-sell them at a profit. Those of us who are resident renters need only worry about the ones that will actually be occupied and stress the existing infrastructure. Units sitting empty waiting for a buyer or renter are the owner's concern.

[Oscar2]

know it all said:

There are probably also more than a few who are old enough to get a retirement visa (yes, yes, just go with it), but can't get the police clearance certificate from their home country.

since when do you need a police clearance for a retirement visa?

i had to get one in order to get my retirement visa.

[evenstevens]

Most are sold before they are built...

not correct,deposits are taken ,approx 10%, then full payment ( 90%) on transfer day at the lands dept ,some developers have a instalment plan in place,which may reach another 10%,(or more)which will give a total of 20%,and the final 80% payment is paid on transfer day at the lands dept, of course there is other options out in the market,but a condo is never sold until the title deed is safely in your mit

all have a nice day

[Thighlander]

Most are sold before they are built...

not correct,deposits are taken ,approx 10%, then full payment ( 90%) on transfer day at the lands dept ,some developers have a instalment plan in place,which may reach another 10%,(or more)which will give a total of 20%,and the final 80% payment is paid on transfer day at the lands dept, of course there is other options out in the market,but a condo is never sold until the title deed is safely in your mit

all have a nice day

Go into any sales office, and they are marked as sold with a red dot on the floor plan (not the unit plan), when the contract is signed. I did differentiate between contract signing and settlement. When their sign reads "80% sold out" and the place is only 10% complete, isn't it pretty obvious how that is interpreted?

[chiang mai]

Most are sold before they are built...

not correct,deposits are taken ,approx 10%, then full payment ( 90%) on transfer day at the lands dept ,some developers have a instalment plan in place,which may reach another 10%,(or more)which will give a total of 20%,and the final 80% payment is paid on transfer day at the lands dept, of course there is other options out in the market,but a condo is never sold until the title deed is safely in your mit

all have a nice day

Also not correct!

The contract between the developer and the purchaser, along with the 10% deposit, are then acquired by the bank who then finances the build on a stage payment basis. The typical developer needs to finance around 40% of a project in this manner, thereafter the project is paid for and the remaining sales are profit.

[JB300]

I did some very back of a cigarette packet calculations & worked out that I would be £60-65 per month better off buying a 3MillionTHB condo than paying 22,000THB per month to rent.

Main assumptions were

1. Numbers above (e.g if the rent was only 20K, the difference was only £25 per month, if it was only 15k, I'd be better of by £70 per month renting

2. Assumed rent goes up at a constant yearly inflation rate of 5.3% (my attempt to cater for inflation & currency fluctuations)

3. Condo/maintenance fees of 5k per month

4. Time period of 11 years & 9 months (until I'm 60 & my pension kicks in)

5. I'd pay for the Condo in cash upfront so would be ahead/behind by anything it was worth minus lost opportunity costs of not having the money invested.

Completely flawed assumptions, but better than nothing to me

Edited April 25, 2014 by JB300

[Oscar2]

when these places advertise "80% sold out" that's a load of rubbish. it's marketing hype. one of the oldest marketing gimmicks in the world.

[Thighlander]

The developers use the term "sold," when a unit is under contract, even though they have obviously not closed on a unit that may be two years from completion. How the bank finances the project is irrelevant. The big developers have raised billions in stock offerings; so that is capital that is put to work, too, along with the 10% down payment and installments paid by the buyer.

[heybruce]

I did some very back of a cigarette packet calculations & worked out that I would be £60-65 per month better off buying a 3MillionTHB condo than paying 22,000THB per month to rent.

Main assumptions were

1. Numbers above (e.g if the rent was only 20K, the difference was only £25 per month, if it was only 15k, I'd be better of by £70 per month renting

2. Assumed rent goes up at a constant yearly inflation rate of 5.3% (my attempt to cater for inflation & currency fluctuations)

3. Condo/maintenance fees of 5k per month

4. Time period of 11 years & 9 months (until I'm 60 & my pension kicks in)

5. I'd pay for the Condo in cash upfront so would be ahead/behind by anything it was worth minus lost opportunity costs of not having the money invested.

Completely flawed assumptions, but better than nothing to me

I'm paying 12000 baht a month in rent for a condo that I suspect would sell for about 3 million baht. I had to shop around a bit to find this place, but now that I've established myself as a responsible tenant that pays on time and takes care of the property, the owner seems keen on keeping me here and has not brought up the subject of a rent increase in over two years. And, as I indicated earlier, if I decide to move it will be a lot easier than if I owned this place. I'm missing out on the investment possibilities, but real estate investing in Thailand is more of a gamble than I'm willing to take.

[chiang mai]

The developers use the term "sold," when a unit is under contract, even though they have obviously not closed on a unit that may be two years from completion. How the bank finances the project is irrelevant. The big developers have raised billions in stock offerings; so that is capital that is put to work, too, along with the 10% down payment and installments paid by the buyer.

We are not in disgareement, the term sold is applicable long before chanottes are issued to the final consumer at the LO.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I did some very back of a cigarette packet calculations & worked out that I would be £60-65 per month better off buying a 3MillionTHB condo than paying 22,000THB per month to rent.

Main assumptions were

1. Numbers above (e.g if the rent was only 20K, the difference was only £25 per month, if it was only 15k, I'd be better of by £70 per month renting

2. Assumed rent goes up at a constant yearly inflation rate of 5.3% (my attempt to cater for inflation & currency fluctuations)

3. Condo/maintenance fees of 5k per month

4. Time period of 11 years & 9 months (until I'm 60 & my pension kicks in)

5. I'd pay for the Condo in cash upfront so would be ahead/behind by anything it was worth minus lost opportunity costs of not having the money invested.

Completely flawed assumptions, but better than nothing to me

You are looking on the best outcome, why not look at the worst outcome ......

1. A 3M condo aimed at the foreigner market would probably be priced at 1.5M for the Thai market.

Assume you lost 1.5M the moment you made the transfer.

2. As the market is increasingly flooded with condos, why not assume rent reduces by 10% a year?

3. You are the only one paying the maint. fee.

4. Health issues force you to stay in your home country.

5. The bht crashes against your home currency, losing 50% of your upfront money.

Yep, my assumptions are all flawed too!

Edited April 25, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Degobuy]

Just wait a few months you might see a change, are you not paying chash for this condo?

[Thighlander]

I did some very back of a cigarette packet calculations & worked out that I would be £60-65 per month better off buying a 3MillionTHB condo than paying 22,000THB per month to rent.

Main assumptions were

1. Numbers above (e.g if the rent was only 20K, the difference was only £25 per month, if it was only 15k, I'd be better of by £70 per month renting

2. Assumed rent goes up at a constant yearly inflation rate of 5.3% (my attempt to cater for inflation & currency fluctuations)

3. Condo/maintenance fees of 5k per month

4. Time period of 11 years & 9 months (until I'm 60 & my pension kicks in)

5. I'd pay for the Condo in cash upfront so would be ahead/behind by anything it was worth minus lost opportunity costs of not having the money invested.

Completely flawed assumptions, but better than nothing to me

You are looking on the best outcome, why not look at the worst outcome ......

1. A 3M condo aimed at the foreigner market would probably be priced at 1.5M for the Thai market.

Assume you lost 1.5M the moment you made the transfer.

2. As the market is increasingly flooded with condos, why not assume rent reduces by 10% a year?

3. You are the only one paying the maint. fee.

4. Health issues force you to stay in your home country.

5. The bht crashes against your home currency, losing 50% of your upfront money.

Yep, my assumptions are all flawed too!

1. Maybe a 10% discount for Thai ownership in places like Pattaya, but you could set up a company and get the same price. Also, heard a lot of stories about the farang getting his thai partner involved in the negotiating process....while they may be good with tuk-tuk drivers; they will often only be doing it for kickbacks and/or a few hundred thousand under the table. Say a Thai seller gets an offer from a farang, and an offer from a Thai....farang has cash; so that's a no brainer. I know Thais, who won't even rent to Thais, and they will give their better clients the same insight into the disappearing refrigerators and the boogers all over the bedroom walls.

2. A lot will be sold to investors, who never physically look at them, nor occupy them. The stories about 1 or 2 lights on in entire buildings have been around for at least 10 years. No property taxes, low fees, don't like renters? let it sit and appreciate.

3. They can disable your key card access to the levator/gym/parking garage, and lock your water meter......

4. I actually have good medical coverage, when I am here, and very few reservations about using the Thai medical systems.

5. Then I can live even cheaper here, and it would be a good time to buy another one, or invest heavily in the THB.

What does senile old Warren Buffet say? "When there is greed; be cautious. When there is blood in the streets; be aggressive."

[evenstevens]

Most are sold before they are built...

not correct,deposits are taken ,approx 10%, then full payment ( 90%) on transfer day at the lands dept ,some developers have a instalment plan in place,which may reach another 10%,(or more)which will give a total of 20%,and the final 80% payment is paid on transfer day at the lands dept, of course there is other options out in the market,but a condo is never sold until the title deed is safely in your mit

all have a nice day

Also not correct!

not correct??????please tell me why..ohhh, a very warm welcome back to the thread

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I did some very back of a cigarette packet calculations & worked out that I would be £60-65 per month better off buying a 3MillionTHB condo than paying 22,000THB per month to rent.

Main assumptions were

1. Numbers above (e.g if the rent was only 20K, the difference was only £25 per month, if it was only 15k, I'd be better of by £70 per month renting

2. Assumed rent goes up at a constant yearly inflation rate of 5.3% (my attempt to cater for inflation & currency fluctuations)

3. Condo/maintenance fees of 5k per month

4. Time period of 11 years & 9 months (until I'm 60 & my pension kicks in)

5. I'd pay for the Condo in cash upfront so would be ahead/behind by anything it was worth minus lost opportunity costs of not having the money invested.

Completely flawed assumptions, but better than nothing to me

You are looking on the best outcome, why not look at the worst outcome ......

1. A 3M condo aimed at the foreigner market would probably be priced at 1.5M for the Thai market.

Assume you lost 1.5M the moment you made the transfer.

2. As the market is increasingly flooded with condos, why not assume rent reduces by 10% a year?

3. You are the only one paying the maint. fee.

4. Health issues force you to stay in your home country.

5. The bht crashes against your home currency, losing 50% of your upfront money.

Yep, my assumptions are all flawed too!

I don't understand the first one. There may be a foreigner market in places like Pattaya or Phuket, but in Chiang Mai there are just condos. You buy whichever one you like at whatever the price is.

Edited April 25, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Oscar2]

I did some very back of a cigarette packet calculations & worked out that I would be £60-65 per month better off buying a 3MillionTHB condo than paying 22,000THB per month to rent.

Main assumptions were

1. Numbers above (e.g if the rent was only 20K, the difference was only £25 per month, if it was only 15k, I'd be better of by £70 per month renting

2. Assumed rent goes up at a constant yearly inflation rate of 5.3% (my attempt to cater for inflation & currency fluctuations)

3. Condo/maintenance fees of 5k per month

4. Time period of 11 years & 9 months (until I'm 60 & my pension kicks in)

5. I'd pay for the Condo in cash upfront so would be ahead/behind by anything it was worth minus lost opportunity costs of not having the money invested.

Completely flawed assumptions, but better than nothing to me

You are looking on the best outcome, why not look at the worst outcome ......

1. A 3M condo aimed at the foreigner market would probably be priced at 1.5M for the Thai market.

Assume you lost 1.5M the moment you made the transfer.

2. As the market is increasingly flooded with condos, why not assume rent reduces by 10% a year?

3. You are the only one paying the maint. fee.

4. Health issues force you to stay in your home country.

5. The bht crashes against your home currency, losing 50% of your upfront money.

Yep, my assumptions are all flawed too!

I don't understand the first one.

i don't either.

[evenstevens]

The developers use the term "sold," when a unit is under contract, even though they have obviously not closed on a unit that may be two years from completion.

agreed, the term sold is loosely used as a spin by developers ,its pure fact only a deposit has been taken,when paid in full and title deeds exchanged,then only then can it be classed as sold ,as i posted to morning and have been called wrong ,in addition selling finished condos its never sold until the the loot arrives and the titled deeds are exchanged...,the same for off the plan condos.,or anything for that matter

Edited April 25, 2014 by evenstevens

[JB300]

I should have mentioned those calculations were based on living in Bangkok hence the numbers/assumptions for the 1st point

Edited April 25, 2014 by JB300

[JB300]

I did some very back of a cigarette packet calculations & worked out that I would be £60-65 per month better off buying a 3MillionTHB condo than paying 22,000THB per month to rent.

Main assumptions were

1. Numbers above (e.g if the rent was only 20K, the difference was only £25 per month, if it was only 15k, I'd be better of by £70 per month renting

2. Assumed rent goes up at a constant yearly inflation rate of 5.3% (my attempt to cater for inflation & currency fluctuations)

3. Condo/maintenance fees of 5k per month

4. Time period of 11 years & 9 months (until I'm 60 & my pension kicks in)

5. I'd pay for the Condo in cash upfront so would be ahead/behind by anything it was worth minus lost opportunity costs of not having the money invested.

Completely flawed assumptions, but better than nothing to me

I'm paying 12000 baht a month in rent for a condo that I suspect would sell for about 3 million baht. I had to shop around a bit to find this place, but now that I've established myself as a responsible tenant that pays on time and takes care of the property, the owner seems keen on keeping me here and has not brought up the subject of a rent increase in over two years. And, as I indicated earlier, if I decide to move it will be a lot easier than if I owned this place. I'm missing out on the investment possibilities, but real estate investing in Thailand is more of a gamble than I'm willing to take.

12k per month for a 3M apartment is "only" 1-250 so (for me) borderline between Rent Vs Buy (e.g my house in the UK is rented out at approx 1-350 & I rent an apartment in Singapore at approx 1-450)

but at 12k per month for what I'm assuming is a very nice Apartment, I'd rent as well

Edited April 25, 2014 by JB300

[heybruce]

I did some very back of a cigarette packet calculations & worked out that I would be £60-65 per month better off buying a 3MillionTHB condo than paying 22,000THB per month to rent.

Main assumptions were

1. Numbers above (e.g if the rent was only 20K, the difference was only £25 per month, if it was only 15k, I'd be better of by £70 per month renting

2. Assumed rent goes up at a constant yearly inflation rate of 5.3% (my attempt to cater for inflation & currency fluctuations)

3. Condo/maintenance fees of 5k per month

4. Time period of 11 years & 9 months (until I'm 60 & my pension kicks in)

5. I'd pay for the Condo in cash upfront so would be ahead/behind by anything it was worth minus lost opportunity costs of not having the money invested.

Completely flawed assumptions, but better than nothing to me

I'm paying 12000 baht a month in rent for a condo that I suspect would sell for about 3 million baht. I had to shop around a bit to find this place, but now that I've established myself as a responsible tenant that pays on time and takes care of the property, the owner seems keen on keeping me here and has not brought up the subject of a rent increase in over two years. And, as I indicated earlier, if I decide to move it will be a lot easier than if I owned this place. I'm missing out on the investment possibilities, but real estate investing in Thailand is more of a gamble than I'm willing to take.

12k per month for a 3M apartment is "only" 1-250 so (for me) borderline between Rent Vs Buy (e.g my house in the UK is rented out at approx 1-350 & I rent an apartment in Singapore at approx 1-450)

but at 12k per month for what I'm assuming is a very nice Apartment, I'd rent as well

"1-250", 1-350", "1-450"? Do you mean the monthly rent divided by value of property? If so, most of the posters on this subject optimistically assume they can rent out property at 1-100, or in a worst case scenario 1-200.

Yes, I think my condo is nice and in a good location. But if Nimmanhamin goes south due to rampant over-developement I can easily relocate. That's one of the advantages of renting.

[Cow San Load]

use it or similar so we can rip your calcs apart properly http://www.editgrid.com/

edit: here bcause ur are all to lazy: http://www.editgrid.com/user/cmcondo/CMCondo

read/write access fixed

http://www.editgrid.com/user/cmcondo/CMCondo

history so what you write can still be seen if it gets changed

http://www.editgrid.com/property/history/list/7035824

Edited April 25, 2014 by Cow San Load