Buying Real Estate--buyer Beware

[LOS NICK]

Been in many real estate offices and new condo project models here in pattaya..most real estate agents inform you that it was no big deal to make a purchase in thai company name...then the lawyer you choose would back up that statement with his own positive twist...this was all done for their own financial gain...Guys were misled and believed what they were told...The guys who got beat up the most are the guys who bought condos this way...they are totally screwed..at least when a foreigner buys land or a house they are all in the same boat..must use the thai company route....when you can buy a condo in your own name why would you ever consider buying that condo with a thai company....too hot for that property and cheaper price is probably the answer along with listening to unregulated and unlicensed real estate agents...........buyer beware...........there are sharks in the waters that will tell you anything for financial gain........

groups like view talay here in pattaya that sells new condos and tell you that at deposit time---we cant put your purchase in your name now..when the project is finished you will be informed..then the first 49% that gets down to the land office will be able to put their unit in their own name....hence the rest of you are shit out of luck.....you need your head examined if you purchase a condo under these terms....it is a scam................to fill the building with uneducated foreign buyers...who are now stuck with purchashing a unit in a thai company name...

now the game has a twist..I think that the info that came into play this past week helps expose all these real estate agents and lawyers,who give you wrong advise, and makes buyers more aware...let everyone know what they are up against if they want to risk buying a condo in a thai cmpany name.

There are many many foreigners here now who have deposits down and are making payments to purchase condo units upon completion with view talay and northshore-raimon land in thai company name.

These poor sods are in for it big time....Please consider your options..Read the contracts you signed with a fine tooth comb...Sometimes there are outs in these contracts due to something the developer has not performed..

Buyer beware.

[Thaiquila]

Yes, I basically agree with you, as I have personally experienced these hard sell sales tactics. However, you have to assume, something has got to give. For example, how can a new condo in a farang oriented area be started in this new environment? Yes, they can sell 49 percent, so what happens to the other 51 percent, does it sit empty? Doubtful, so it can't be started to begin with. Somethings gotta give.

[LOS NICK]

Yes, I basically agree with you, as I have personally experienced these hard sell sales tactics. However, you have to assume, something has got to give. For example, how can a new condo in a farang oriented area be started in this new environment? Yes, they can sell 49 percent, so what happens to the other 51 percent, does it sit empty? Doubtful, so it can't be started to begin with. Somethings gotta give.

view talay always had a problem selling condos after the 49% was filled up...then they came up with this new concept...making it a lottery or a chance to get the condo purchase in your name,by saying that you can put the condo in your name after completion and not at contract signing.

Farang fell for these tactics and I assume these developers will continue to come up with concepts to fool the farang..............Buyer beware

[Nadia 2]

Farang fell for these tactics and I assume these developers will continue to come up with concepts to fool the farang..............Buyer beware

In Samui I see apartments for sale with a different and illegal structure. You get your 'ownership' through the articles of association and the shares in the company owns the multi unit building and land. The people who sell and set up this structure explain to potential purchasers that foreigners are allowed to own 49% in a condominium juristic person and that according to the law 51% must be owned by Thai (nominee) shareholders, 'thus a perfectly legal structure....'. Even the lawyers involved explain that it all legal and it seems well set up but it is of course an illegal circumvention of the law and has nothing to do with the Thai government allowing foreigners own condos up to 49% of the aggregate unit space within a condominium. The 49% has nothing to do owning the shares in a company.

These buildings are not registered as condominiums and have no unit title deed issued by the land office. Foreigners are not buying a condo but shares in an illegal holding company.

[ThaiBob]

groups like view talay here in pattaya that sells new condos and tell you that at deposit time---we cant put your purchase in your name now..when the project is finished you will be informed..then the first 49% that gets down to the land office will be able to put their unit in their own name....hence the rest of you are shit out of luck.....you need your head examined if you purchase a condo under these terms....it is a scam................to fill the building with uneducated foreign buyers...who are now stuck with purchashing a unit in a thai company name...

That's the way condo construction is done in Thailand (and many other countries too). Pre-construction contracts assist in financing the project.

View Talay can not guarantee a registration at the time of deposit since that is done by the Land Office at project completion. The buyer must be in full compliance with the contract, make the final payment and the project released by the developer. The juristic person at View Talay should have said 49% of the units were sold and the Thai company option was the only one available (at that time).

Edited June 10, 2006 by ThaiBob

[Dragonman]

groups like view talay here in pattaya that sells new condos and tell you that at deposit time---we cant put your purchase in your name now..when the project is finished you will be informed..then the first 49% that gets down to the land office will be able to put their unit in their own name....hence the rest of you are shit out of luck.....you need your head examined if you purchase a condo under these terms....it is a scam................to fill the building with uneducated foreign buyers...who are now stuck with purchashing a unit in a thai company name...

That's the way condo construction is done in Thailand (and many other countries too). Pre-construction contracts assist in financing the project.

View Talay can not guarantee a registration at the time of deposit since that is done by the Land Office at project completion. The buyer must be in full compliance with the contract, make the final payment and the project released by the developer. The juristic person at View Talay should have said 49% of the units were sold and the Thai company option was the only one available (at that time).

Yes, it is up to the Condo Management to provide the details to the Land Office. Whilst View Talay cannot guarantee registration it is on their " say so" that registration is made. The legal responsibility is theirs to provide details under the Condominium Act, so I do not see how they can legally get away with this 1st come 1st served attitude. Registration should be made on the Condo's list of foreigners as soon as contracts are made. You are paying a substantial deposit and signing a contract after all.

[monochaser]

My brother told me something on the phone the other day. He is buying a condo and making payments. He has been trying to contact the developer to find out how much is due. His payment is late and cannot make contact. He asked me if he should worry, He then said "I dont trust a Thai". I said "Amen to that, dude"

[Jomtien]

quote 'ThaiBob'

View Talay can not guarantee a registration at the time of deposit since that is done by the Land Office at project completion. The buyer must be in full compliance with the contract, make the final payment and the project released by the developer. The juristic person at View Talay should have said 49% of the units were sold and the Thai company option was the only one available (at that time).

So on the date of completion, you will see 200 Foreigners with 'rucksack & camping gear' laying in front of the Land Department Office to claim their o so wanted foreign share?

But they cant claim it untill this juristic person shows up.

Then the juristic person of View Talay will arrive and......

Peter

[backflip]

"His payment is late..."

It's a real shame that the developer doesn't view your brother's inability to pay his bills on time as an emergency. I'm sure they look at your no-account brother and say, "Gads, I hate dealing with these farangs."

[LOS NICK]

well if any company such as view talay or who ever else cant guarantee your condo purchase to be in your name why roll the dice..just walk away...they dont deserve your business..there are plenty of condos available that can guarantee the condo in your name..

whats so special about view talay anyway..they sell you and unfinished shell..they put about 40 units on each floor,twenty plus stories high,with only 2 elevators.it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out the math with that equation...

But ding dong farang continues to buy in their new projects with no guarantee of ownership in their name...........swamp land must interest these buyers.........

[ThaiBob]

well if any company such as view talay or who ever else cant guarantee your condo purchase to be in your name why roll the dice..just walk away...they dont deserve your business..there are plenty of condos available that can guarantee the condo in your name..

Please tell me of another new condo construction project in Pattaya that will guaranatee registration in your own name. I'm very interested and could change my mind about my View Talay purchase. Thanks!

[Thaiquila]

well if any company such as view talay or who ever else cant guarantee your condo purchase to be in your name why roll the dice..just walk away...they dont deserve your business..there are plenty of condos available that can guarantee the condo in your name..

Please tell me of another new condo construction project in Pattaya that will guaranatee registration in your own name. I'm very interested and could change my mind about my View Talay purchase. Thanks!

The developers of Northshore were guaranteeing it BEFORE they sold out the foreign share. It is my impression that some of the more upscale projects are "guaranteeing" that for their pre-sales. View Talay definitely does not.

[Jomtien]

Some projects in Patters also advertise with it like the Nova Group, they will keep 51% probably as short term serviced apartment rentals, and selling the other 49%.

Peter

[LOS NICK]

thai bob--developers will say and do anything to get you to sign on the dotted line..Its you that needs to be educated about real estate deals here in pattaya.

DO NOT BUY A CONDO UNLESS IT IS GUARANTEED TO BE IN YOUR NAME.THAT MEANS AT DEPOSIT TIME AND HAVE IT STATED IN THE CONTRACT.. NOT 2 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD WHEN THE PROJECT IS FINISHED.

Thats the first rule...Live by it.

A lottery or a leg race to get your unit under your name is UNACCEPTABLE.

DO NOT DO BUSINESS THIS WAY....

[icecubes]

[

The developers of Northshore were guaranteeing it BEFORE they sold out the foreign share. It is my impression that some of the more upscale projects are "guaranteeing" that for their pre-sales. View Talay definitely does not.

[/quote

Come on guys

We all know what a guarantee is worth in Thailand.

Dont a buy a thing until its finished.

Its just not worth the risk.

Have a nice day

[lopburi3]

Some projects in Patters also advertise with it like the Nova Group, they will keep 51% probably as short term serviced apartment rentals, and selling the other 49%.

Peter

And once the 49% is sold the condo management meeting makes the parking area a shopping plaza by a vote of 51%. Buyer behind the eight ball.

[David H]

groups like view talay here in pattaya that sells new condos and tell you that at deposit time---we cant put your purchase in your name now..when the project is finished you will be informed..then the first 49% that gets down to the land office will be able to put their unit in their own name....hence the rest of you are shit out of luck.....you need your head examined if you purchase a condo under these terms....it is a scam................to fill the building with uneducated foreign buyers...who are now stuck with purchashing a unit in a thai company name...

That's the way condo construction is done in Thailand (and many other countries too). Pre-construction contracts assist in financing the project.

View Talay can not guarantee a registration at the time of deposit since that is done by the Land Office at project completion. The buyer must be in full compliance with the contract, make the final payment and the project released by the developer. The juristic person at View Talay should have said 49% of the units were sold and the Thai company option was the only one available (at that time).

I purchased a condo from view talay. I know now that i made a big mistake.I don't wish to own or have anything to do with a company. Ipurchased with them telling me that don't worry noproblem it will be in your name. Now I would like to know , if I cancell do I lose my deposit and contract fee? I also made 40,000 dollars worth of payments do i get that back? Does anyone here know? I would appreciate any advice you can give me.

[ThaiBob]

groups like view talay here in pattaya that sells new condos and tell you that at deposit time---we cant put your purchase in your name now..when the project is finished you will be informed..then the first 49% that gets down to the land office will be able to put their unit in their own name....hence the rest of you are shit out of luck.....you need your head examined if you purchase a condo under these terms....it is a scam................to fill the building with uneducated foreign buyers...who are now stuck with purchashing a unit in a thai company name...

That's the way condo construction is done in Thailand (and many other countries too). Pre-construction contracts assist in financing the project.

View Talay can not guarantee a registration at the time of deposit since that is done by the Land Office at project completion. The buyer must be in full compliance with the contract, make the final payment and the project released by the developer. The juristic person at View Talay should have said 49% of the units were sold and the Thai company option was the only one available (at that time).

I purchased a condo from view talay. I know now that i made a big mistake.I don't wish to own or have anything to do with a company. Ipurchased with them telling me that don't worry noproblem it will be in your name. Now I would like to know , if I cancell do I lose my deposit and contract fee? I also made 40,000 dollars worth of payments do i get that back? Does anyone here know? I would appreciate any advice you can give me.

Note, I responded to your post in "How Can I Be Sure I am one of the 49% in Condo" thread. Since you are not comfortable with situation and have changed your mind I suggest you contact View Talay. That may force them to give you the assurances that you want or if in fact you want out entirely they may give you refund (although not legally bound since you plan on defaulting ). I suspect that small deposit (10,000THB?) is not refundable. Not sure about the particulars of your unit but if it a desireable one you could resell the contract at a substantial premium. Units similar to mine in View Talay 7 are now asking up to 2M baht more than what I paid. I believe the premiums in VT 6 are even higher. Of course, all this is irrelevant until this real estate mess is resolved. If it were me I would sit tight since they told you the unit will be in your name.

[Jomtien]

Not sure about the particulars of your unit but if it a desireable one you could resell the contract at a substantial premium. Units similar to mine in View Talay 7 are now asking up to 2M baht more than what I paid. I believe the premiums in VT 6 are even higher. Of course, all this is irrelevant until this real estate mess is resolved. If it were me I would sit tight since they told you the unit will be in your name.

VT are selling their units via a sort of Pyramid scheme, (i dont have a better word for it... )

All 'Investors' know this scheme, and try to profit from it, as quarterly, you will have a new pricelist with new higer prices.

Thats the reason why condos are quickly sold off on paper. VT is doing your 'marketing', in case you are 'in' it to sell off before the units are finished.

My advice to David H, whould be to sell off, or get a guarantee from the developer, and eventually buy back when the Condo is finished and you know for 100% that you have a freehold.

Maybe you will lose some money, but opening a company, yearly accouting cost, and eventually closing that same company, by a sale, are not that cheap either.

Just my 2 cents....

[David H]

groups like view talay here in pattaya that sells new condos and tell you that at deposit time---we cant put your purchase in your name now..when the project is finished you will be informed..then the first 49% that gets down to the land office will be able to put their unit in their own name....hence the rest of you are shit out of luck.....you need your head examined if you purchase a condo under these terms....it is a scam................to fill the building with uneducated foreign buyers...who are now stuck with purchashing a unit in a thai company name...

That's the way condo construction is done in Thailand (and many other countries too). Pre-construction contracts assist in financing the project.

View Talay can not guarantee a registration at the time of deposit since that is done by the Land Office at project completion. The buyer must be in full compliance with the contract, make the final payment and the project released by the developer. The juristic person at View Talay should have said 49% of the units were sold and the Thai company option was the only one available (at that time).

I purchased a condo from view talay. I know now that i made a big mistake.I don't wish to own or have anything to do with a company. Ipurchased with them telling me that don't worry noproblem it will be in your name. Now I would like to know , if I cancell do I lose my deposit and contract fee? I also made 40,000 dollars worth of payments do i get that back? Does anyone here know? I would appreciate any advice you can give me.

Note, I responded to your post in "How Can I Be Sure I am one of the 49% in Condo" thread. Since you are not comfortable with situation and have changed your mind I suggest you contact View Talay. That may force them to give you the assurances that you want or if in fact you want out entirely they may give you refund (although not legally bound since you plan on defaulting ). I suspect that small deposit (10,000THB?) is not refundable. Not sure about the particulars of your unit but if it a desireable one you could resell the contract at a substantial premium. Units similar to mine in View Talay 7 are now asking up to 2M baht more than what I paid. I believe the premiums in VT 6 are even higher. Of course, all this is irrelevant until this real estate mess is resolved. If it were me I would sit tight since they told you the unit will be in your name.

The condo's that i purchased are 26th floor, three studios together at the very front on the side close to beach road. The deposits and contract fees are approx. 16000.00 dollars alone. Right now i am having someone try to get a guarantee for me that i am in the 49% on paper. I bought at the very beginning and thought that it shpuld have been a shoe in .

[ThaiBob]

The condo's that i purchased are 26th floor, three studios together at the very front on the side close to beach road. The deposits and contract fees are approx. 16000.00 dollars alone. Right now i am having someone try to get a guarantee for me that i am in the 49% on paper. I bought at the very beginning and thought that it shpuld have been a shoe in .

I don't see how it could be anything but a shoe in. Looks to me like you'll have nice high-floor units in a new building with views! I would knock out the walls and make a larger unit. This is done all the time and I'll do it with my units at VT7. Of course, you can keep them as is, if you choose to rent them. I bought my units for my retirement in a few years and not for rentals. Fluctuations in condo values is of secondary importance to me. As JomTien said, there will be periodic price increases as the VT progresses towards completion so VT does do the marketing for you! What JomTien describes as a Pyramid scheme is actually called "flipping" and is done all the time in the resort and tourist areas of the world. His advice to sell now and buy back later does not make sense to me. Hope he doesn't buy stocks; sell low and buy high? It's really a mute point, I seriously doubt there will be any foreign-owned units available (except from flippers). I think you've made a good decision as you can be a "flipper" or an owner resident....the choice is yours.

P.S.: I did a quick check on several RE sites and units like yours the asking prices is about 70000-72000 sqm. Of course, we all know everything is basically "on-hold" until the RE mess is straightened-out.

[LOS NICK]

thai bob--you are the perfect buyer for these developers..everything you state is a dream..a fantasy..then you go and give advice to some newbie who is concerned..

Let me ask you a question...You paid a deposit and are making payments to the developer View Talay.

Yes or No..Do you have the condo purchase in your name or not? Not 2 years from now but right now while you are making your payments.

That is the million dollar question.

Because if you dont you do have something to worry about.once again I will say..Who wants to play games and roll the dice when there are plenty of condo deals that will guarantee the condo be in your name at deposit time..New or resales..

I stated what I was told by view talay many times already.It seems to be different from what you expect .

[ThaiBob]

thai bob--you are the perfect buyer for these developers..everything you state is a dream..a fantasy..then you go and give advice to some newbie who is concerned..

Let me ask you a question...You paid a deposit and are making payments to the developer View Talay.

Yes or No..Do you have the condo purchase in your name or not? Not 2 years from now but right now while you are making your payments.

That is the million dollar question.

Because if you dont you do have something to worry about.once again I will say..Who wants to play games and roll the dice when there are plenty of condo deals that will guarantee the condo be in your name at deposit time..New or resales..

I stated what I was told by view talay many times already.It seems to be different from what you expect .

[ThaiBob]

thai bob--you are the perfect buyer for these developers..everything you state is a dream..a fantasy..then you go and give advice to some newbie who is concerned..

Let me ask you a question...You paid a deposit and are making payments to the developer View Talay.

Yes or No..Do you have the condo purchase in your name or not? Not 2 years from now but right now while you are making your payments.

That is the million dollar question.

Because if you dont you do have something to worry about.once again I will say..Who wants to play games and roll the dice when there are plenty of condo deals that will guarantee the condo be in your name at deposit time..New or resales..

I stated what I was told by view talay many times already.It seems to be different from what you expect .

I have purchased a pre-construction contract at View Talay 7. I have only verbal assurances (twice) at this time that when VT 7 is declared complete by the developer and approved by the city and if;

1) I make final payment and I will be given a registration of 49% foreign ownership certificate by VT

2) I will be given a Certificate of Remittance by my Thai bank.

3) I take these documents to the Land Office and will then receive the ChaNot in my name and the Tabien Baan.

This has been the procedure for the hundreds of previous foreign owned units at View Talay 1 and 2. I have communicated with a Thai lawyer and he said it was against Thai law for a developer to oversell foreign units (implying why would ask I such a dumb question). Well, View Talay did oversell foreign units in VT 2 several years ago, realized their screw-up and offered refunds or free Thai companies. I take heed of your warning about potential unscrupulous Thai developers but I also have confidence in View Talay's track record. With that said, in July, I will get written assurance about foreign ownership and that my contract complies with standard form drafted by the Consumer Protection Office. LOS NICK it sounds like you know someone personally who has been burned by a project developer here in Pattaya. Please share the story. Your resale idea doesn't work for me since I want something new where I can do the build-out the way I like. I also want to qualify for the one-year renewable VISA that is only available if you buy a new condo from a developer (my contract is greater than the 3 million baht requirement)

[LOS NICK]

If you are comfortable with a verbal assurance from a developer in a foreign country so be it.

It sounds like your game plan is well thought out.

I am just shocked that someone would risk hard earned money this way.

Like I said I was down there with a buyer and they assured us of one thing..They cannot guarantee that the condo we wanted to buy could be put in foreigner name at deposit time.

we would have to wait until the project is finished in 2 years. Then we would be notified so we can go down to the land office and register it in foreigner name.Never did they say you are one of the first to buy into the project and your contract number is in the 49% FOREIGNER NAME BRACKET.

they said if you got down to the land office early enough there should be no problem getting the condo in your name.

we pressed the point about having the condo purchase in foreigner name..DID YOU THAI- BOB

THEY COUD NOT SATISFY US.

WE WALKED AWAY WITH MONEY IN POCKET.

[Jomtien]

P.S.: I did a quick check on several RE sites and units like yours the asking prices is about 70000-72000 sqm. Of course, we all know everything is basically "on-hold" until the RE mess is straightened-out.

This exactly what i mean 'Asking Prices', for sure based on the the latest quarterly price list. VT knows very well how to market this stuff.

[ThaiBob]

If you are comfortable with a verbal assurance from a developer in a foreign country so be it.

It sounds like your game plan is well thought out.

I am just shocked that someone would risk hard earned money this way.

Like I said I was down there with a buyer and they assured us of one thing..They cannot guarantee that the condo we wanted to buy could be put in foreigner name at deposit time.

we would have to wait until the project is finished in 2 years. Then we would be notified so we can go down to the land office and register it in foreigner name.Never did they say you are one of the first to buy into the project and your contract number is in the 49% FOREIGNER NAME BRACKET.

they said if you got down to the land office early enough there should be no problem getting the condo in your name.

we pressed the point about having the condo purchase in foreigner name..DID YOU THAI- BOB

THEY COUD NOT SATISFY US.

WE WALKED AWAY WITH MONEY IN POCKET.

I can understand why I you walked away. There is only one person (Gaeo) that I've met who works in the View Talay (by VT 2) office who has the necessary communication skills to deal with English speaking foreigners (IMO). Surprising since they sell so many units to foreigners. Their marketing style leaves alot to desired. Ever see a paid add in the local papers, glossy brochures (not that cheap thing they pass out) or try visting their non-existent website? Since the day I signed my contract I've learned alot more (thanks to posters on Thaivisa) and intend to get the t's crosses and i's dotted when I visit in July.

[gguy]

I find this situation very interesting. The thai company scheme is basically a sham. If the thai authorities ever examine the corporation, the truth comes out.

However, this might open an interesting investment opportunity. I have contacted my former employer in NYC about finding investors that would be willing to purchase thai corporation properties for a very substantial discount.

If a number of properties become available, we would negotiate with the locals for preferencial treatment of our corporations. The property would become unsaleable. We would use it as rental property for at least five to ten years until the law changes.

If enough properties are located, the properties could be rolled in one Thai corporation and stock could be issued to the public. Then the original investors could sell their stock or let the corporation liquidate and pay dividends. The dividend should be fairly substantial just from rental income.

Another alternative would be set up a thai corporation to purchase the properties. If stock were offered to the right banking authorities, I would image a fairly sizable proportion of the property would be bank financed. Leverage would increase risk and profitability.

However, property values would have to fall at least 30%, a 50% fall would be optimal. A fall of more than 50% would indicate instability within the Thai system and would be to risky.

[Spaniel]

I guess the situation at View Talay has changed since I purchased my 41 SQMT unit in building A.

I made the initial B10,000 deposit in August 2002 and the last payment in December 2003 when the building was completed. At that time I also paid first year condo fee, registration, water/electric meter fee nad reserve maintenance fee for a total of B21,000. I didn't even have to go to the land office as the girl in the office took care of the registration and in about a week gave me the documents with the unit registered in my name. When I originally put down the deposit I was told that I have the unit registered in my name as they had not yet reached the 49% level.

[thaigene2]

I don't understand what you guys see in View Talay anyway. We rented one of the condos from the management office for a couple of days because we wanted to stay at Jomtien for a change (with kids).

Judging from the Agent's office window, dozens and dozens of these joints were up for resale (don't know which number it was 1 or 2 or 3 whatever). Many looked like they had been for sale for a few years, including the one we stayed in for a couple of days.

I'll bet it's even harder to shift these places now.

The owner had done a reasonable job of decorating etc..but these buildings are huge depressing blocks..I believe they are "B" Grade too aren't they? Why anyone would pay 70000-72000 Baht per SQ M for a B Grade building is incredible (to me anyway). Silly money.