K and G in Thai

[Richard W]

This probably also explains why จ and ช are both transcribed as "ch" because จ corresponds to the "ch" character in the Indic alphabets, but they're no longer pronounced like that in modern Thai.

The transliteration of the equivalent of จ and ฉ from Indian scripts has varied. Although in academic use the transliterations as 'c' and 'ch' are now well established, they have been transliterated as 'ch' and 'chh'. The equivalent of ช is transliterated as 'j'. For how both จ and ช came to both be transcribed as "ch" in the RTGS, see its history. Do follow the references; they make interesting reading.

You can not base your romanization on how the Thai characters corresponds to their Indic equivalent because they're no longer pronounced the same as their origins anymore.

Tell that to the Devakula family! Most modern romanisation uses the RTGS; Suvarnabhumi is atypical.

[Mole]

I've heard countless of people saying about this atypical spelling of Suvarnabhumi, but actually, in my eyes, it's not that atypical because they're simply not transcribing it phonetically according to the Thai, but writing it in it's original Sanskrit, probably in an attempt to convey it's meaning more properly than the Thai, although even if they transcribed according to Thai pronunciation Suwannaphum, most foreigners should still realize it's Sanskrit origins.

I believe another reason is the historical significant of this particular name, so it could simply more auspicious to write it with it's original Sanskrit Romanized name, rather than the Thai one.

You could compare to choosing to write พุทธ Puth as Buddha, or นิพพาน Nipphan as Nirvana, etc...

[Mole]

You can also see this is the common practice in other names such as Rajamangala for ราชมงคล.

[bobroper]

Yes, when I first started studying Thai, the very first word I questioned was chicken.

Definitely pronounced as gi ไก่ and not ki.

Enjoy.

[kriswillems]

Mole, for one time I've to disagree with you in this part:

"I also believe when the "g" in English is also pronounced the same as in ก. It may be due to dialect differences that the "g" may not exactly sound like a ก."

Do you know the Island เกาะกูด?

If ก would be the same as g in English the ก in เกาะกูด should sound like the the g in good.

In every single video I found, กูด sounded different from good in English. The difference is in the initial consonant.

For instance at 2.19:

Edited May 6, 2014 by kriswillems

[rijb]

[kh] and [k] are allophones for single phoneme /k/ in English

• /k/ in 'kit' [kh] is aspirated and not aspirated in 'skill' [k]
• phones [kh] and [k] are different phonemes in Thai - /k/ and /g/

[Kanga Japan]

Bobroper,

Me too. I am still at that stage.

[kokesaat]

Thanks for the video.....any chance he offers the same for the ด ต d dt sounds?

The videos are a part of Stu Jay Raj's Thai Bites programme at jcademy.com. Stu does have a video about the ด ต sounds, but his programme is set up to only release 1 out of every 15 or so videos to the public for free.

I could talk to him about releasing the 't' 'd' video in the future as one of the public ones. Otherwise, you can just check them out on his site.

The Thai Bites are seriously good. Here's a few more on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTL02WBRCaWTsClEmpagRJRjmErmRq7jd

I consider myself an intermediatish Thai learner.....read, write, speak.......but a variety of 'tips' and teachers working on my ต's and ด's has thus far failed. I sense that most of the time in pure conversation mode, it doesn't matter much. Everyone seems to understand what I'm talking about. But when I'm in class and my teacher's ears are tuned in for errors, I get a slap on the table and a ผิด. Stu Jay Raj seems to have the knack for clearly explaining how the mouth, lips, tongue, teeth, throat all work to develop the right sound.

[Richard W]

Here's a nice example here of what happens if you go for the simple pinyin style of initial consonants. At 1'4" we get the repeated half line 'yin dee don hub'. The two examples of 'd' are different consonants - one is ด do dek and the other is ต to tao. Now the girls aren't from Thailand; they're Tai Lue, but their language isn't too different from Northern Thai and the native script is the Lanna script. Kanga has just similar problems with 'b' in the spring roll thread.

I was looking for something else when I came across this video. I thought it was nice and relaxing.

[DavidHouston]

ผมไม่รู้เรื่องเลยเกี่ยวกับภาษาจีน แต่เห็นว่ามีระบบ "พินยิน" ที่ใช้อักษรโรมันในการถอดเสียงภาษาจีน

พยัญชนะต้นของภาษาจีนมี 21 เสียง

b (ปัว / ปอ) p (พัว / พอ) m (มัว / มอ) f (ฟัว / ฟอ)

d (เตอ) t (เธอ) n (เนอ) l (เลอ)

g (เกอ) k (เคอ) h (เฮอ) j (จี)

q (ชี) x (ซี) z (จือ) c (ชือ)

s (ซือ) zh (จรือ) ch (ชรือ) sh (ซรือ) r (ยรือ)

http://www.jiewfudao.com/index.php?lay=show&ac=article&Id=538714128&Ntype=16

ผมอยากถามว่าจะเป็นไปได้ไหมว่า คนไทยจะใช้ระบบพินยินเป็นแม่แบบในการถอดอักษรไทยเป็นอักษรโรมัน เช่น เสียง "เกอ" ของภาษาจีนเป็นเสียงที่คล้ายเสียง "ก" ของไทยหรือเปล่าครับ?

ขอบคุณครับ

[Flosurat]

Kanga Japan is right, ก ไก่ is equivalent to G, while ค ควาย and ฆ ระฆัง are equivalent to K. 

The reason why Thai transliteration mixes it up? Well, just look at the name of the airport สุวรรณภูมิ, in English it's written Suvarnabhumi. While the Province ชัยภูมิ is written Chaiyaphum, although both words end with ภูมิ. 

Thais have a big problem with English language and this probably goes back to the days when they started writing Thai words in English. And then wrong terms become the standard, just like "same-same" or "just moment". 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Flosurat
Spelling

[tgeezer]

New learners come along all time so these are enduring discussions.  If people learned the Thai characters they would see that กไก่ is not G. 

   If you compare vowels with most consonants you realise that only the shape of the mouth parts form vowel sounds whereas most consonants are made by mouth parts touching one another.    ก ค ง are made by constricting the flow of air after passing the vocal cords, ก crisply and ค 'dragged out'. One way of showing the difference would be to make more of ค rather than making less of ก. 

 

I say 'G' with the vocal cords vibrating strongly that is not กไก่ 

In Thai this vibration is called เสียงก้อง or เสียงโฆษะ and apart from vowels, only nine letters are  เสียงก้อง บ,ด,ม,น,ย,ร,ล,ว,อ, 

I think that I have heard these referred to as 'sonorants' or 'voiced'. 

 

[tgeezer]

edit:  I was wondering  why when I add up the nine ก้อง and eleven ไม่ก้อง consonants the total is twenty when there are twenty one consonant (พยัญชนะ) sounds in Thai. I should have said ten ก้อง and added งงู  

[jackdd]

On 2/24/2020 at 10:30 AM, Flosurat said:

Thais have a big problem with English language and this probably goes back to the days when they started writing Thai words in English.

They never wrote Thai words as English. Thai script was merely transliterated to Latin script.

IIRC it was a German who came up with the transliteration rules, which explains why when pronouncing the transliterated words as if they were German, the pronounciation is often not too bad, and if pronouncing the words as if they were English it's often completely wrong.

 

4 hours ago, tgeezer said:

If people learned the Thai characters they would see that กไก่ is not G.

It might not be 100% like a G, but the sound is closer to a G than it is to a K.

If a foreigner just pronounces it as an G most Thai people will understand it, if he pronounces it like a K Thai people will have problems.

[Puccini]

4 hours ago, jackdd said:

...If a foreigner just pronounces it as an G most Thai people will understand it, if he pronounces it like a K Thai people will have problems.

Aren't there two ways of pronouncing K, one aspirated (ไข่), the other non-aspirated (ไก่)? Neither comes close to sounding like G in English words like give and gone.

[jackdd]

54 minutes ago, Puccini said:

Aren't there two ways of pronouncing K, one aspirated (ไข่), the other non-aspirated (ไก่)? Neither comes close to sounding like G in English words like give and gone.

I was thinking about a word with a sharper G, for example "golf". If you pronounce it like the G in golf they will understand you. Maybe it's not correct in terms of linguistics, but it works in real life.

[tgeezer]

40 minutes ago, Puccini said:

Aren't there two ways of pronouncing K, one aspirated (ไข่), the other non-aspirated (ไก่)? Neither comes close to sounding like G in English words like give and gone.

I don't know music but your 'handle' and the musical score makes me suspect that you know what you are talking about.    

  Of the eleven ไม่ก้อง letters four of them are said to be หนัก( ธนิต) พ ท ซ ค that means a puff of air and four เบา (สิถิล) no puff of air ป ต จ ก .  I think that is what the ก=K ค=Kh is showing. ก is k without the puff of air.

5 hours ago, jackdd said:

 

 

It might not be 100% like a G, but the sound is closer to a G than it is to a K.

If a foreigner just pronounces it as an G most Thai people will understand it, if he pronounces it like a K Thai people will have problems.

I wouldn't contradict that jackdd except to say that if you don't make a distinction between a guttural G and a non guttural G some of your ก s will sounds like a foreigner speaking Thai.