How to get someone to sign me a 30 year lease on Condo (not house)

[BuffaloRescue]

Hi

Ive got a complicated situation with an ex. I think she might agree to sign me a 30 year lease on the condo i paid for. I dont have the funds to transfer to thailand in order to get the tor tor 3 form to transfer it to my name (actually no money will be changing hands)

I know its possible to do this leasing arrangement with a house. Is it possible with a condo too?

Im based in Chiang Mai. Any reputable lawyers there who could draw up contract? Shes based overseas in Australia so id like to get the paperwork done by post.. sending to her to sign it etc

[falkan]

why not have her sell it? just let her sign the papers - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/699992-chanote-in-thai-friends-name-he-is-not-in-thailand-how-to-change-ownership/

[Langsuan Man]

What happened to your idea to get her to sell her condo, that you paid for, to a company you were going to set up for that purpose ?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/722886-still-possible-to-buy-in-company-name/

[Senechal]

While I don't have an answer to your question, the moral of the story is abundantly clear...

[marcusd]

I can give the name of a Solicitor I used to BUY a house, set up my business and also many people I know Her name is NOK and (that is a nickname) and she is in Hillside 2 condo 3rd floor the Hillside on Huay Kaew Rd and her number is0813461426

NOW WHAT I LOVE about her is she speaks English and does not lie or steer you bad.

My thia Partner and I went in for some serious business deals through her.

She explained all in Thai to him and then English to me before we signed and made us go away and talk.

Now he speaks FLUENT english and said she tiold him the EXACT same thing as me his in thia and me in English.

No it was not a set up as HE was the one getting the dud deal. and he knew it but wants to make our business successful so he went along

This is to show you there is a great deal of trust we have in her and we still use her today 2 years after our first dealings.

Hope this helps

[Arkady]

You can lease any type of property that has a separate title deed for 30 years - land, house, condo, factory. You can also do a lifetime usufruct which has an advantage, if you think you might live for more than 30 years.

Usufruct is usually easier to convince the Land Dept that it is for nil consideration, if it is between a man and wife in a relationship, e.g. fiances. Otherwise they will expect a rental amount and will charge income tax on the total amount upfront for a 30 year lease. For a usufruct I think they also assume 30 years, if there is a rental, but I am not sure. If a rent has to be assumed, a peppercorn rent is usually possible but not a ridiculous one like 1 baht per year. There are also some other taxes to pay which your lawyer can estimate for you.

If you can't transfer the condo into your own name for now, getting a lease or a usufruct is a good idea because that will make it virtually impossible to sell it or mortgage it over your head, as most buyers would shy away. You should have the right to sublease included in your lease or usufruct agreement and try to make your rights binding on her heirs (this is easier to enforce in a usufruct situation). You should also ask her to will to you.

[Langsuan Man]

I don't see how this newest idea is going to solve your problem of gaining possession of the property that you paid for that is on her name. Getting a lease from her, even if transferable, will just make it harder to sell to a third party. Admit that you screwed up and move on. There is no reason to throw away any more money for something that you will never really own

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[hagler]

Unless the annual lease payment amounts are what would be considered fair market value with the appropriate annual adjustments for rises in the cost of living index then a 30 year year lease, especially from a "related" party one, is voidable and recindable if the your ex wife, partner, defacto or whatever she was changes her mind about the deal in the future.

Walk away and buy a new condo outright in your name. Save you some more stress down the road.

Edited May 4, 2014 by hagler

[MantisMan]

I don't understand why you cannot get a lease on your condo.

I have life time lease for 99 years, which I renew every 30 years. That basically means I have to pay the taxes every 30 years.

I'll be 150 years old 99 years from now. Can't wait!!

[Langsuan Man]

I don't understand why you cannot get a lease on your condo.

I have life time lease for 99 years, which I renew every 30 years. That basically means I have to pay the taxes every 30 years.

I'll be 150 years old 99 years from now. Can't wait!!

Sorry, MantisMan but you are late to the party. The OP wants his ex girlfriend to give him a lease to the condo that he purchased in her name so that he can sell same

As far as what you say about your lease, if you have one for over 30 years it is not legal. The longest period a private lease in Thailand can be is 30 years. It may have a clause that it can be renewed for an additional 30 or 60 years but that clause is not enforceable

[Strangebrew]

Got better Idea get her to sell you condo back for one Baht, Then draw up will leaving it to her upon your death no lease and only one baht transfers hands all legal too.

[khunPer]

I don't understand why you cannot get a lease on your condo.

I have life time lease for 99 years, which I renew every 30 years. That basically means I have to pay the taxes every 30 years.

I'll be 150 years old 99 years from now. Can't wait!!

Sorry, MantisMan but you are late to the party. The OP wants his ex girlfriend to give him a lease to the condo that he purchased in her name so that he can sell same

As far as what you say about your lease, if you have one for over 30 years it is not legal. The longest period a private lease in Thailand can be is 30 years. It may have a clause that it can be renewed for an additional 30 or 60 years but that clause is not enforceable

More than 30 years lease…

My lawyer told me, that it is legal to make optional lease period of 30 years or 30+30 years in the lease agreement. However the option is not stated on the deed at the Land Office and therefore not protected, so if you cannot have the lease prolonged after 30 years, meaning a new lease agreement when a new term begins and tax paid at Land Office when registered, you need to open a civil court case about the breach.

[falkan]

I don't understand why you cannot get a lease on your condo.

I have life time lease for 99 years, which I renew every 30 years. That basically means I have to pay the taxes every 30 years.

I'll be 150 years old 99 years from now. Can't wait!!

there is no life time lease, lease is 30 years then it's up to the owner to grant you another 30 years, why should he do that for free? why not buy condo in your name!?

you got scammed! enjoy! =)

[Senechal]

I don't understand why you cannot get a lease on your condo.

I have life time lease for 99 years, which I renew every 30 years. That basically means I have to pay the taxes every 30 years.

I'll be 150 years old 99 years from now. Can't wait!!

LOL. Is that what you think you have?

You have nothing of the sort. You have a 30 year lease.

You'll be 80 when your lease is up.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Senechal

[Senechal]

I don't understand why you cannot get a lease on your condo.

I have life time lease for 99 years, which I renew every 30 years. That basically means I have to pay the taxes every 30 years.

I'll be 150 years old 99 years from now. Can't wait!!

Sorry, MantisMan but you are late to the party. The OP wants his ex girlfriend to give him a lease to the condo that he purchased in her name so that he can sell same

As far as what you say about your lease, if you have one for over 30 years it is not legal. The longest period a private lease in Thailand can be is 30 years. It may have a clause that it can be renewed for an additional 30 or 60 years but that clause is not enforceable

More than 30 years lease…

My lawyer told me, that it is legal to make optional lease period of 30 years or 30+30 years in the lease agreement. However the option is not stated on the deed at the Land Office and therefore not protected, so if you cannot have the lease prolonged after 30 years, meaning a new lease agreement when a new term begins and tax paid at Land Office when registered, you need to open a civil court case about the breach.

Well... this is a topic for a different thread perhaps, but your lawyer is an idiot. What he's admitting is that it's not possible to have an additional 30 year rider registered at the land office (because it's not legal). And that is correct.

But then what he's telling you is that if the lessor does not honor your legally-indefensible claim to an additional 30 years after the first term expires, you can take him to court and sue him over your legally-indefensible claim. (Which is idiotic, of course).

There is no such thing as a lease that lasts more than 30 years in Thailand. There are thousands of shyster lawyers who will tell you tricky ways to successfully draw up a contract for more than 30 years, but a legally-indefensible contract is not a contract. (It is however a nice fat legal bill, which he collected from you. And he figures none of this will actually matter for another 30 years). So if you think a farang going to court against a Thai landowner over a legally-indefensible claim is a good idea, then go ahead and sign a 90 year lease. Or why not 1000 years for that matter?

Edited May 5, 2014 by Senechal

[khunPer]

»There is no such thing as a lease that lasts more than 30 years in Thailand.«

Very true, but you can make a legal binding agreement or document for additional lease periods, 30 or 30+30 years are acceptable, but like any business contract you may need to bring it to court, if not duly honored. That’s what both my Thai Thai-lawyer and another lawyer of mine, who is farang partner together with a Thai-lawyer in a Thai law-firm, told me.

I presume you are Thai and lawyer, so many thanks for correcting the other lawyers misinformation…

Edited May 5, 2014 by khunPer

[mrfaroukh]

Why don't you ask the same question from Thai Visa advocates and engage them to do the needy.

[Senechal]

»There is no such thing as a lease that lasts more than 30 years in Thailand.«

Very true, but you can make a legal binding agreement or document for additional lease periods, 30 or 30+30 years are acceptable, but like any business contract you may need to bring it to court, if not duly honored.

No, sorry but you've been misinformed.

That additional contract constitutes a longer-than-30 year lease. It is not defensible under Thai law, no matter what it says in the contract and no matter what your lawyer told you, because the Land Act supercedes civil law.

What your lawyer said about going to court *is* true. But what he obviously omitted is that your chances in court are exactly 0% and not a decimal place higher. You can write and agree to anything you want in a contract. It doesn't make your contract legal or legally defensible.

And if you think your lawyer knows what he's talking about, ask him for case history supporting the defense of back-to-back 30 year leases. It should only be a minute of legal research if what he's saying is true.

And ask yourself the obvious question: Why even legislate a 30 year maximum contract if you can circumvent it by simply writing a different contract? Does that even sound defensible? No, it absolutely does not.

And if you're planning on retiring in that house you should seriously do your homework because your lease likely expires when you're 80. Might the property owner honor it? Maybe. But if values have risen, then almost certainly not.

The issue comes down to contract law (Thai civil law) vs. the Land Act. Your contract says one thing. The Land Act says another. If you went to court, the judge would almost certainly side with the Land Act (your contract being an obvious attempt to circumvent it).

But your chances are even worse that that for one reason: The second 30-year contract doesn't survive change of ownership. In the event that the property changes ownership over the course of 30 years, your second lease is instantly void.

Which basically makes your second document worthless. Not only is it not defensible in court -- it doesn't ever need to go to court because it can be instantly nullified just by transferring ownership of the title.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Senechal

[BuffaloRescue]

Got better Idea get her to sell you condo back for one Baht, Then draw up will leaving it to her upon your death no lease and only one baht transfers hands all legal too.

I could do but the land office wouldnt accept it. I would have to show the full actual value of the property being transferred from overseas account with the tor tor 3 (or whatever they call it now)

Since i dont have that money overseas I cant do it.

[Delight]

I presume that the condo is in a Thai name. If so you can set up a company(which you control) then have the condo transferred to this new company. You will have to pay the company set up costs and the transfer costs.

You will also have to pay annual audit costs and maybe some tax associated with the company.

If you then wish to transfer it to a family member -later on - it is easy and very cheap to do so.

(Note : I am advised that you can' buy 'the FET certificate - formerly Tor Tor 3)

Edited May 9, 2014 by Delight

[Langsuan Man]

I presume that the condo is in a Thai name. If so you can set up a company(which you control) then have the condo transferred to this new company. You will have to pay the company set up costs and the transfer costs.

You will also have to pay annual audit costs and maybe some tax associated with the company.

If you then wish to transfer it to a family member -later on - it is easy and very cheap to do so.

(Note : I am advised that you can' buy 'the FET certificate - formerly Tor Tor 3)

Read the whole thread and you will see that the OP posted here because he did not get the answer he wanted in another thread. See post #3 above

[Globalist]

»There is no such thing as a lease that lasts more than 30 years in Thailand.«

Very true, but you can make a legal binding agreement or document for additional lease periods, 30 or 30+30 years are acceptable, but like any business contract you may need to bring it to court, if not duly honored.

No, sorry but you've been misinformed.

That additional contract constitutes a longer-than-30 year lease. It is not defensible under Thai law, no matter what it says in the contract and no matter what your lawyer told you, because the Land Act supercedes civil law.

What your lawyer said about going to court *is* true. But what he obviously omitted is that your chances in court are exactly 0% and not a decimal place higher. You can write and agree to anything you want in a contract. It doesn't make your contract legal or legally defensible.

And if you think your lawyer knows what he's talking about, ask him for case history supporting the defense of back-to-back 30 year leases. It should only be a minute of legal research if what he's saying is true.

And ask yourself the obvious question: Why even legislate a 30 year maximum contract if you can circumvent it by simply writing a different contract? Does that even sound defensible? No, it absolutely does not.

And if you're planning on retiring in that house you should seriously do your homework because your lease likely expires when you're 80. Might the property owner honor it? Maybe. But if values have risen, then almost certainly not.

The issue comes down to contract law (Thai civil law) vs. the Land Act. Your contract says one thing. The Land Act says another. If you went to court, the judge would almost certainly side with the Land Act (your contract being an obvious attempt to circumvent it).

But your chances are even worse that that for one reason: The second 30-year contract doesn't survive change of ownership. In the event that the property changes ownership over the course of 30 years, your second lease is instantly void.

Which basically makes your second document worthless. Not only is it not defensible in court -- it doesn't ever need to go to court because it can be instantly nullified just by transferring ownership of the title.

Although 30 years is the maximum lease period in Thailand, why can't two parties contractually agree today that, at the end of a current 30 year lease, party A will grant party B a new 30 year lease. This is surely not the same as granting a 60 year lease (which indeed appears to be illegal).

Or am I missing something?

[slipperylobster]

This is why it is better to rent...

[Langsuan Man]

»There is no such thing as a lease that lasts more than 30 years in Thailand.«

Very true, but you can make a legal binding agreement or document for additional lease periods, 30 or 30+30 years are acceptable, but like any business contract you may need to bring it to court, if not duly honored.

No, sorry but you've been misinformed.

That additional contract constitutes a longer-than-30 year lease. It is not defensible under Thai law, no matter what it says in the contract and no matter what your lawyer told you, because the Land Act supercedes civil law.

What your lawyer said about going to court *is* true. But what he obviously omitted is that your chances in court are exactly 0% and not a decimal place higher. You can write and agree to anything you want in a contract. It doesn't make your contract legal or legally defensible.

And if you think your lawyer knows what he's talking about, ask him for case history supporting the defense of back-to-back 30 year leases. It should only be a minute of legal research if what he's saying is true.

And ask yourself the obvious question: Why even legislate a 30 year maximum contract if you can circumvent it by simply writing a different contract? Does that even sound defensible? No, it absolutely does not.

And if you're planning on retiring in that house you should seriously do your homework because your lease likely expires when you're 80. Might the property owner honor it? Maybe. But if values have risen, then almost certainly not.

The issue comes down to contract law (Thai civil law) vs. the Land Act. Your contract says one thing. The Land Act says another. If you went to court, the judge would almost certainly side with the Land Act (your contract being an obvious attempt to circumvent it).

But your chances are even worse that that for one reason: The second 30-year contract doesn't survive change of ownership. In the event that the property changes ownership over the course of 30 years, your second lease is instantly void.

Which basically makes your second document worthless. Not only is it not defensible in court -- it doesn't ever need to go to court because it can be instantly nullified just by transferring ownership of the title.

Although 30 years is the maximum lease period in Thailand, why can't two parties contractually agree today that, at the end of a current 30 year lease, party A will grant party B a new 30 year lease. This is surely not the same as granting a 60 year lease (which indeed appears to be illegal).

Or am I missing something?

What your are missing is that the "extra agreement" will not be honored by the Land Office, therefore it will not be attached to the Chanote maintained in the Land Office

[Globalist]

"What your are missing is that the "extra agreement" will not be honored by the Land Office, therefore it will not be attached to the Chanote maintained in the Land Office"

Sure, the land office couldn't care less, I agree.

But that doesn't disqualify a contractual agreement between A and B regarding a mutually agreed future intention. Enforcement of such an agreement is of course an other matter.

But legally, I cannot see anything prohibiting it.

[Langsuan Man]

The importance of the Land Office honoring it is that they will not issue another Chanote on the land that is encumbered with a 30 year lease. If your "extended agreement is not there they will not block a new Chanote from being issued. Yes you can fight it in court, but that is more expensive and complicated after the fact, than prior to a new Chanote being issued

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[hagler]

"What your are missing is that the "extra agreement" will not be honored by the Land Office, therefore it will not be attached to the Chanote maintained in the Land Office"

Sure, the land office couldn't care less, I agree.

But that doesn't disqualify a contractual agreement between A and B regarding a mutually agreed future intention. Enforcement of such an agreement is of course an other matter.

But legally, I cannot see anything prohibiting it.

Sadly any agreement between 2 parties that is in essence illlegal holds no weight at law.

eg. If i contract with you for you to supply me with 15 tonnes of Shabu and you fail to deliver said tonnage at the agreed rate and at the agreed time and i have prepaid you I cant take litigation against you for return of monies and expect success. It will fail on the point of law that would also sink a extra 30 year land lease clause in any contract made in the kingdom. Both are illegal intentions and actions and are trying to operate outside of existing laws.

[Globalist]

"What your are missing is that the "extra agreement" will not be honored by the Land Office, therefore it will not be attached to the Chanote maintained in the Land Office"

Sure, the land office couldn't care less, I agree.

But that doesn't disqualify a contractual agreement between A and B regarding a mutually agreed future intention. Enforcement of such an agreement is of course an other matter.

But legally, I cannot see anything prohibiting it.

Sadly any agreement between 2 parties that is in essence illlegal holds no weight at law.

eg. If i contract with you for you to supply me with 15 tonnes of Shabu and you fail to deliver said tonnage at the agreed rate and at the agreed time and i have prepaid you I cant take litigation against you for return of monies and expect success. It will fail on the point of law that would also sink a extra 30 year land lease clause in any contract made in the kingdom. Both are illegal intentions and actions and are trying to operate outside of existing laws.

I believe you misuderstand.

It is legal in any country, including Thailand, for A and B to contractually agree to the following:

- "A and B hereby agree today on the 19th of May in the year 2014 that on the 20th of May in the year 2044, A will lease his land to B until the 19th of May in the year 2074, and B will, on the 20th of May, in the year 2044, pay A THB XXX for said lease."

This agreement has nothing to do with anything that happens before 20th of May 2044. Note that there is no payment before that date either.

Enforcement is an entirely different matter and should not be confused with legality.

With the agreement above, I don't see any obvious problems with enforcement.

[dksharron]

Double check with a lawyer.

There are time limits on many contracts

I would be surprised if you were legally able to enforce a contract which will not begin for 30 years after the date of signing.